The Ascension need be debunked[EP5 - LS4 SPOILERS] — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Ascension need be debunked[EP5 - LS4 SPOILERS]

ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

Aurene is dead, and probably find a way to bring her back seems become a "new problem to solve". Of course the "lich" option is very cheap, it would be funny or "Jokoish", but a poor narrative, going against the direction the plot is following.

But speaking more seriously, the mention of Ascension is not there for nothing. It will certainly be an important component to what comes next.

However I still can not "connect the dots" .. I'll try to put the pieces together based on what I vaguely remember:

  1. The common belief is that Ascension is such a ritual by which humans can have an "communion" with the Gods and from that they would get some kind of "blessing" from them as the divine fire.
    1a. However, an NPC(whose name I do not remember) in current Elon Riverlands said its seems does not work anymore, he suspects(correctly) that the gods are no longer in the mists.
  2. Glint and Forgotten are the most knowledgeable about ascension.

It is strongly indicated that Aurene will have to go through the process.

my remaining speculations,
1. is it really necessary for the gods to ascension to function? I tried searching for the quote i mentioned before in Elon Riverlands and did not find it.
2. What is it really necessary for? The question that no one asks is how to replace an Elder Dragon, one thing is to kill one to absorb their powers, another thing is to replace their role in the "All." I do not know if it is on purpose or the fault of the narrative, but lacked it, I believe that this is where the ascension will have a place.

"It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

Comments

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think it's one of those things that will make sense when they show it, but there are so many ways they could go that it's really hard to say ahead of time what they will do.

    It's possible that it isn't even Aurene who needs to Ascend, but instead she needs to use her absorbed divinity to enable mortals to begin Ascending again, in order to deal with either the remaining dragons, or some post-dragon threat. Mursaat empire from beyond the mists (maybe the ones in GW1 were a dissident group that returned to Tyria), demon army, cthulhu, who knows.

    In that case, they're laying the groundwork ahead of time for writing an excessively powerful ally (Aurene with Kraalkatorik's and all of Balthazar's power as of PoF, plus a good chunk of Zhaitan and Mordremoth power) out of the plot without having to kill them off or resort to an asspull excuse. Aurene has to go hang in the Mists, run obnoxious trials, and turn mortals into superheroes. But she wishes you luck against all the dragons and whatnot.

  • Imba.9451Imba.9451 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    It's possible that it isn't even Aurene who needs to Ascend, but instead she needs to use her absorbed divinity to enable mortals to begin Ascending again, in order to deal with either the remaining dragons, or some post-dragon threat. Mursaat empire from beyond the mists (maybe the ones in GW1 were a dissident group that returned to Tyria)

    ikr? It just makes for such an obvious twist.
    The Mursaat left Tyria, because their own power proved to be their disadvantage against magic eating dragons. So them returning after the dragon-problem is solved almost makes too much sense.
    GW3 will have playable Mursaat. Just stating this so I can say "I told you so!" later.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Imba.9451 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    It's possible that it isn't even Aurene who needs to Ascend, but instead she needs to use her absorbed divinity to enable mortals to begin Ascending again, in order to deal with either the remaining dragons, or some post-dragon threat. Mursaat empire from beyond the mists (maybe the ones in GW1 were a dissident group that returned to Tyria)

    ikr? It just makes for such an obvious twist.
    The Mursaat left Tyria, because their own power proved to be their disadvantage against magic eating dragons. So them returning after the dragon-problem is solved almost makes too much sense.
    GW3 will have playable Mursaat. Just stating this so I can say "I told you so!" later.

    Yep, that sounds like something they would do. Plus the races they might have considered their equals and a serious threat are all basically extinct or fallen into primitivism. Easy pickings.

    At any rate, the Mursaat were a race of sapient mortals just like humans or Charr, they weren't demons or dragon minions or elementals or constructs. I'd like for there to be more out there if only to absolve the commander of genocide.

  • Although the word "ascension" was used with a capitalized letter, I wonder if what Glint meant was at all Ascension in reference to the Crystal Desert trials. Though one could argue that what the trials in Glint's Trials were effectively a duplication of the Ascension trials.

    Ultimately, it was clear that whatever Glint meant, she was referring to Aurene becoming an Elder Dragon. And after the trials and private discussion, Aurene was different. Both her model slightly changed (blue glow beneath the scales), and she ceased to fear death to Kralkatorrik.

    Unless ArenaNet put in a massive red herring, we'll figure out what was said, to some degree, next episode.

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    However I still can not "connect the dots" .. I'll try to put the pieces together based on what I vaguely remember:

    1. The common belief is that Ascension is such a ritual by which humans can have an "communion" with the Gods and from that they would get some kind of "blessing" from them as the divine fire.
      1a. However, an NPC(whose name I do not remember) in current Elon Riverlands said its seems does not work anymore, he suspects(correctly) that the gods are no longer in the mists.
    2. Glint and Forgotten are the most knowledgeable about ascension.

    It is strongly indicated that Aurene will have to go through the process.

    my remaining speculations,
    1. is it really necessary for the gods to ascension to function? I tried searching for the quote i mentioned before in Elon Riverlands and did not find it.
    2. What is it really necessary for? The question that no one asks is how to replace an Elder Dragon, one thing is to kill one to absorb their powers, another thing is to replace their role in the "All." I do not know if it is on purpose or the fault of the narrative, but lacked it, I believe that this is where the ascension will have a place.

    You're probably thinking of Lucius Anvilblade's argument to Flint about how the Ascension doesn't deal with gods but dragons, as his excuse for why he's interested in something about the humans' puny gods. He's not exactly reliable here, he was lying to some degree to Flint for sure. Though afaik he doesn't mention the gods no longer being in the Mists as why Ascension no longer works (there's so many Followers it's easy to get their dialogue mixed up).

    That said, Ascension was never specifically about the gods, but about becoming closer to spirituality. Weh no Su was also Ascension, but done in a different way (and I don't mean it mechanically served the same function as Ascension, I mean figures in lore actually call it Ascension "or Weh no Su as Canthans call it"). The gods were used to perform this, as were Celestials, but were more a means than the ends.

    Also, people have been asking "how does one replace an Elder Dragon" since Season 2.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Remember the fragments of Vlast gave the Commander information about him. Aurene's remains can give us information about this Ascension matter.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:
    Remember the fragments of Vlast gave the Commander information about him. Aurene's remains can give us information about this Ascension matter.

    Well, you can be the one to start carving her up in front of Taimi then, because she didn't explode or leave behind any memory crystals.

  • @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:
    Remember the fragments of Vlast gave the Commander information about him. Aurene's remains can give us information about this Ascension matter.

    Well, you can be the one to start carving her up in front of Taimi then, because she didn't explode or leave behind any memory crystals.

    She didn't even crystallize, either, unlike both Glint and Vlast.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Annette.6278Annette.6278 Member ✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    Nice thoughts about Ascension.

    Glint: Scion, my beloved child, there are things about Ascension that can onnly be expressed between dragons.
    Glint: Champion, come forward and learn how this long journey began.

    Maybe Aurene's visions were controlled by Glint to make our little dragon prepared for the future. We gave her trust in us, we made a strong connection with her that she loves us too and loves so much that was able to sacrifice herself and start her "journey" to be Ascended. Is there any harder choice that anyone may accept and strongest one to show the love and true light soul? Someone can do it only if has another one to fight for and who loves us.

    Glint, once known as Glaust, was a champion and scion of the Elder Dragon Kralkatorrik. After the Forgotten had purified her from Kralkatorrik's corruption, she began empathizing with other races and turned against her master, devising a complex plan to preserve Tyria's magical balance by replacing Elder Dragons with equally powerful but less predatory entities, a plan in which her children Vlast and Aurene were intended to play a large role. (wiki)

    I really hope that everything is going as she planned and her children dead not for nothing but it's just a way for dragons to be Ascended and to replace another ones.

    The same thing that Dumbledore made with Harry Potter to kill Lord Voldemort.

  • @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    Aurene is dead, and probably find a way to bring her back seems become a "new problem to solve". Of course the "lich" option is very cheap, it would be funny or "Jokoish", but a poor narrative, going against the direction the plot is following.

    But speaking more seriously, the mention of Ascension is not there for nothing. It will certainly be an important component to what comes next.

    However I still can not "connect the dots" .. I'll try to put the pieces together based on what I vaguely remember:

    1. The common belief is that Ascension is such a ritual by which humans can have an "communion" with the Gods and from that they would get some kind of "blessing" from them as the divine fire.
      1a. However, an NPC(whose name I do not remember) in current Elon Riverlands said its seems does not work anymore, he suspects(correctly) that the gods are no longer in the mists.
    2. Glint and Forgotten are the most knowledgeable about ascension.

    It is strongly indicated that Aurene will have to go through the process.

    my remaining speculations,
    1. is it really necessary for the gods to ascension to function? I tried searching for the quote i mentioned before in Elon Riverlands and did not find it.
    2. What is it really necessary for? The question that no one asks is how to replace an Elder Dragon, one thing is to kill one to absorb their powers, another thing is to replace their role in the "All." I do not know if it is on purpose or the fault of the narrative, but lacked it, I believe that this is where the ascension will have a place.

    1. This was the god of dead who helped with it no more infos about this part(its possible you simply need the help of someone powerful from the mists) but the researcher told us what the main use was. Ascension became popular because some Lich King(possible Joko before gw1) terrorized the region with ascension they could escape and there were no way of reviving as undead because their soul went somewhere else.(seems to also work on undead)

    Lately there are some speculation this is the way the gods and the humans came to the world of gw this way, basically you go to the mist and then to the next world.
    I think the main point is from the perspective of your original world you seemingly die including a dead body while you have in the next world a new body to life there.

    2.) Her role was to absorb all the magic which overflows the world without those dragons but there is more to it then just be a dam. They didn't went into details but basically magic flows between the dragons and the world in a big violent cycle. Something like when dragon A eats magic type C it became after a long time magic type D which eats the next dragon then it became E until the loop close and it becomes A again.

    Because of this so long this plot is there Aurene is not allowed to really die if anything she gets an upgrade

  • Jokubas.4265Jokubas.4265 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You're probably thinking of Lucius Anvilblade's argument to Flint about how the Ascension doesn't deal with gods but dragons, as his excuse for why he's interested in something about the humans' puny gods. He's not exactly reliable here, he was lying to some degree to Flint for sure.

    I didn't know about that, but it's interesting in light of current events. Glint's comment about Ascension sets up the possibility that Lucius was right after all. Also, consider Divine Fire. It worked wonders against a Dragon Champion, but that was never really followed up on (at the time I figured Heart of Thorns would have a plot about the return of the gods and using Divine Fire against Mordremoth). Taken together, it certainly sounds like these concepts are important to the dragons and there's something crucial we don't know about yet that changes everything.

    I've seen some mention that Glint was not able to foresee her own death, but Aurene was able to foresee her own. How was this presented? I'm curious because that could be a prophecy twist right there. If it turns out that Aurene isn't truly dead right now, then she didn't actually foresee her death and isn't different from Glint in that aspect. That would be satisfying in the sense that it would reveal that the rules of the story were more consistent than we thought.

    I didn't think of the Joko thing myself, but I feel it would be similar. They made a big deal out of Aurene eating him and it unnerving everyone. If that ends up being relevant, it was at least established beforehand. I'm not sure if it would be too obvious, but obvious isn't always bad. Sometimes obvious is good, because it means the story is consistent and sets up its plot points in advance.

    I'm not betting on it though. This thread pointed out some very interesting things about Ascension that I wasn't aware of beforehand.

  • But Joko's death itself was jokish and more comedic than anything. Go watch Deep Blue Sea and watch Samuel Jackson's character and his speech and watch Joko side by side.

  • Just for clarification, I think there are two different uses for the world 'ascension' in GW lore. One is the ascension as a type of purification to become closer to the gods, but also there is 'The Ascension of Kormir'. Basically, Ascension in that case meant Kormir Ascending to godhood to replace a defeated god. Is replacing an elder dragon the same thing? Aurene is meant to replace Kralkatorric, and I have a feeling the way to do it is similar to Kormir with Abaddon.

    So, following this train of thought...

    I am aware that 'The Ascension of Kormir' required the blessing of other gods, to happen. First of all, is there anything else Kormir received to finally be able to take control of Abaddon's power? I couldn't find much more info on it, and I haven't played GW1.

    Anyways, If we continue following the parallels between the ascension of Kormir and what Aurene set out to do, would Aurene need to receive the blessing from other elder dragons to even be eligible for replacing Kralkatorric? This probably sinks the theory that Kormir and Aurene are following the same path. I just can't shake the idea that the six dragons have the same relationship to Tyria, as the six gods had to their dead world. That because they are analogous, that Aurene will need similar things as Kormir, things appear to not have been received.

    This makes me have ideas that are too way out there to be true. But, at least for me it is a fun thought.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @PseudoNewb.5468 said:
    I am aware that 'The Ascension of Kormir' required the blessing of other gods, to happen. First of all, is there anything else Kormir received to finally be able to take control of Abaddon's power? I couldn't find much more info on it, and I haven't played GW1.

    Anyways, If we continue following the parallels between the ascension of Kormir and what Aurene set out to do, would Aurene need to receive the blessing from other elder dragons to even be eligible for replacing Kralkatorric? This probably sinks the theory that Kormir and Aurene are following the same path.

    It's a little different -- even as an egg, Aurene could absorb energy like Elder Dragons, as could even a fallen god like Balthazar. Kormir was just a plain old human, who would either do nothing to it, or get damaged by it. So, the blessing could have been something that transformed into her a... baby god, sort of. Still flesh and blood (like Aurene mostly seems to be), but capable of absorbing energy. If that's the case, Aurene already has that ability from birth, so she wouldn't need such a blessing. I wonder if Grenth, as a demigod, needed a blessing to replace Dhuum, or if his demigod status itself worked the same way?

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I doubt> @PseudoNewb.5468 said:

    Just for clarification, I think there are two different uses for the world 'ascension' in GW lore. One is the ascension as a type of purification to become closer to the gods, but also there is 'The Ascension of Kormir'. Basically, Ascension in that case meant Kormir Ascending to godhood to replace a defeated god. Is replacing an elder dragon the same thing? Aurene is meant to replace Kralkatorric, and I have a feeling the way to do it is similar to Kormir with Abaddon.

    So, following this train of thought...

    I am aware that 'The Ascension of Kormir' required the blessing of other gods, to happen. First of all, is there anything else Kormir received to finally be able to take control of Abaddon's power? I couldn't find much more info on it, and I haven't played GW1.

    Anyways, If we continue following the parallels between the ascension of Kormir and what Aurene set out to do, would Aurene need to receive the blessing from other elder dragons to even be eligible for replacing Kralkatorric? This probably sinks the theory that Kormir and Aurene are following the same path. I just can't shake the idea that the six dragons have the same relationship to Tyria, as the six gods had to their dead world. That because they are analogous, that Aurene will need similar things as Kormir, things appear to not have been received.

    This makes me have ideas that are too way out there to be true. But, at least for me it is a fun thought.

    I doubt it’s blessing of the elder dragons but as far as I understand Kormir did technically die when she took Abaddons powers. It’s just that she died as a human and immediately ascended to godhood. Kind of like her old self dies and becomes this emotionally distant persona that’s cold and distant due to her newfound level of power and responsibility. They do it in television shows quite often. So I imagine it’s probably something similar for Aurene. She has to die to ascend and that death is the connection and bonds that she has with the people in her current life to some degree. In order to take over the mantle. But as far as dragon ascension specifics I would say less a blessing of the elder dragons and perhaps some general deeper attunement to the all that may involve death and becoming more connected to the all having been a part of the living world, the mists, and the things that lie between. She’s lived and been a part of everything the all encompasses and can now embody a part of it.

    I have always enjoyed the symmetry between the gods and the elder dragons and wish there was an explained connection between them at some point. We don’t however have any indication as far as I know that the gods were really a part of the all in their homeland. They may have just been super powerful magical beings in a world full of other powerful magic beings and the humans they brought with them may have just been a small sect of survivors or less “evolved” to an extent. Unless I’m missing some life indicating their direct connection to the all. Is there even anything stating that they have to be replaced to create balance similar to how elder dragons have to be in Tyria? Or was that just a for the sake of Tyria and containing the magic blast with the instance of Kormir and Abaddon?

  • It is just theory I guess. The human gods seem adepts at controlling and sharing magic. Something that a benevolent dragon is said could do too. Balancing and sharing magic seems to be a shared ability between the two. I guess we don't know much about their origins, so it is just very speculative. Good to be reminded that there is no hard evidence.

    I think the human gods leaving Tyria would make a lot more sense if there are parallels, because it would mean the the human gods are impostors tipping the balance of magic of Tyria in inappropriate ways. There just wouldn't be enough room for 12 of their kind of beings in a single world, especially after the dragons awake. If Balthazar remains a thing we, hopefully we can learn more. Their origins is simply too mysterious for now.

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