Confusion and Torment are 'Control' conditions and needs a re-look — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Confusion and Torment are 'Control' conditions and needs a re-look

EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 10, 2019 in PVP

Mesmers are saying it is okay to stack confusion and torment in large amounts because they have counter-plays which includes not moving and not using any skills to negate the bulk of the damage.
Not moving and not using any skills = getting stunned/dazed
Stunned/dazed = a control effect
Confusion/Torment = control effect

IMO damaging conditions should not come with an extra restriction on player mobility and actions which torment and confusion does.
The restrictive nature of confusion and torment in addition to them being a condition that does damage makes it more OP than the other damaging conditions like bleeds, burns and to some extent, poison.

If we take a look at the other damaging condition that comes with a restriction on the player?
Traited Fear on Necro does that.
But for such a 'strong' control and traited damage skill, it cannot be stacked, does kitten damage, is very short in duration, has very few ways to be applied, and is countered by at least 4 mechanisms (stability, stunbreak, condi cleanse/transfer, resistance).

Confusion and Torment which are both strong control conditions, should not be so easily applied, stackable, and doing so much damage.
It needs a re-look to bring it in-line with control effects because they are precisely that.
Not allowing a player to move or act.
Most control effects are low in damage and short in duration. Like stuns, dazes, fears, knockbacks etc.
Confusion and Torment needs to be balanced in the same manner.

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Comments

  • everyman.4375everyman.4375 Member ✭✭✭

    Confusion and Torment are also realy low in duration.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Mesmers are saying it is okay to stack confusion and torment in large amounts because they have counter-plays which includes not moving and not using any skills to negate the bulk of the damage.
    Not moving and not using any skills = getting stunned/dazed
    Stunned/dazed = a control effect
    Confusion/Torment = control effect

    IMO damaging conditions should not come with an extra restriction on player mobility and actions which torment and confusion does.
    The restrictive nature of confusion and torment in addition to them being a condition that does damage makes it more OP than the other damaging conditions like bleeds, burns and to some extent, poison.

    If we take a look at the other damaging condition that comes with a restriction on the player?
    Traited Fear on Necro does that.
    But for such a 'strong' control and traited damage skill, it cannot be stacked, does kitten damage, is very short in duration, has very few ways to be applied, and is countered by at least 4 mechanisms (stability, stunbreak, condi cleanse/transfer, resistance).

    Confusion and Torment which are both strong control conditions, should not be so easily applied, stackable, and doing so much damage.
    It needs a re-look to bring it in-line with control effects because they are precisely that.
    Not allowing a player to move or act.
    Most control effects are low in damage and short in duration. Like stuns, dazes, fears, knockbacks etc.
    Confusion and Torment needs to be balanced in the same manner.

    OK so firstly don't start saying something is equal to something when it isn't you're getting to false equivalency. When you have confusion on you you can still use skills, when you have torment on you movement is still possible it just hurts a lot if you choose to do so with high stacks however when dazed or stunned you cannot without a stunbreak. Additionally control effects are binary while torment and confusion are scaling.

    Confusion I think for the most part it's actually in a decent place after they reduced most duration to 2-3s max and it's very difficult to push that higher for the investment needed. You can stop using skills, LoS till it's gone and in general wait it out as well as cleanse. You also don't take that much damage per skill use, about 196 at 1505 condition damage per stack so even at 10 stacks (1960) this is doing far less than what auto attacks on power players will do. Even at the OMGWTFROFLMOA 24 stacks per skill activation is 4,709 damage which would require you to have been hit by 2-3 major sources at a time, can you say that you would take less damage from power being hit by 3 attacks?

    Torment is where I think the main problem really lies, you can't really run around and kite with torment on you, just move as little as possible. Unfortunately this means being essentially a sitting duck in many cases as kiting is one of the biggest ways to avoid damage especially with damage itself being so high. Torment's stationary damage is actually even lower than bleed which I think is really good but it's moving damage is about 50% higher than poison and double what you take stationary, this I think is a bit too high for the game as it is but has only recently become an issue for the reason I'll say below. At 1505 condition damage moving does 167 damage per stack, not moving is 83 damage.

    So what's the problem if both on paper look fine or at least not overbearing?

    1) When both conditions are in combination in moderate to high amounts it creates an oppressive build to fight. You can't move around much and you have to constantly watch your skill use and keep track of your stacks of confusion. Each way of countering the condition feeds into the other (not using skills, not moving too much) to apply more and more conditions and damage meaning without plenty of hard cleansing or resistance it's a fight many can't win.

    2) Torment was never meant to be applied in the amounts we see today. Neither was confusion tbh but that's been addressed by reducing most confusion duration across the board to 2-3s. Torment hasn't been addressed and you frequently see scourges and mirages keeping 7+ torment on people effortlessly all the time. For reference as above at 7 stacks that's 585 damage not moving and 1169 for moving and it's not like it's gone in 3s like confusion, torment will last for a long time, 8-9s duration and adding a little in duration will improve it a lot.

    At the end of the day I think most mirage complaints really come from the 2 conditions used together as well as some pretty bonkers stacking of torment where mirage can get you to 12-20 stacks of torment reliably which will make you take 1000-1660 damage for not moving at all and pretty much double that for moving.

    To fix it, I dunno. Replace the torment with bleeding or poison might be an avenue to explore and reduce the stacks and duration a bit on the ambush skills as well as illusionary counter and axe skills.

    Edit: Additionally upping the cool downs on axe/scepter skills to be more in line with what we would see at launch is something I'd like to see but this applies to all classes and their elite spec weapons, it's not mesmer exclusive.

    Damage formula:
    Confusion:
    (0.1 * Level) + 2 damage per stack per second. 10 damage per stack per second at level 80. -DoT
    (0.0975 * Condition Damage) + 49.5 damage per stack. - Activation

    Torment:
    (0.045 * Condition Damage) + 15.9 damage per stack per second. - Stationary.
    (0.09 * Condition Damage) + 31.8 damage per stack per second at level 80. -Moving.

    Burning:
    (0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131 damage per stack per second at Level 80.

    Poison:
    (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 33.5 damage per stack per second at level 80.

    Bleeding:
    (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second at level 80.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Torment
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleeding
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Poisoned

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    I think those two control conditions are fine, although in PvP should be pure in their design:

    • Torment should do only damage while moving.
    • Confusion should do damage only when casting an ability which is not the auto-attack.

    What should be looked upon is how easy is to apply an kitten amount of long lasting stacks in one burst. Because the word "burst" should not be associated to condition.

    Limiting the number of stacks in not a solution as it would limit the impact a build has thus making the condition builds useless. Nerf the damage or duration i don't think is the right approach as again it would diminish the impact a condi player has in the game.

    What would be the solution?

    • When a condition is actively cleansed by the player an special buff is applied which makes the player immune for the application of the same condition for shot time.
    • This buff should be applied only when the player use an active skill to cleanse the conditions. This is for to avoid staking immunity in zergs, only players which actively use cleanses to cleanse their conditions would benefit from this effect.

    Example:

    • Conditions which can stack: 1 second immunity to that condition for each stack.
    • Condition which don't have stacks: Fixed time of immunity.
    • A player cleanse 12 stacks of burning = 12 seconds of immunity to burning
    • A player cleanse stun or daze ( independently of duration left ) = 1 second immunity to daze or stun (depending on the original condition).

    As such players which use the conditions the way they are supposed to be will keep the ticking with very low downtime. Meanwhile those that smash the buttons to burst down because they keep applying new conditions every second will be less effective as a player which can cleanse one of those stacks would become immune for long time to that condition. Also The cheesy perma-lock stuns builds would loose the effectivity giving the player an actual opportunity to counter the attack.

    The best is this change would not need special coding as it would only affect players and definitely not PvE mobs. Well maybe some future PvE mob which Anet want to give this special kind of mechanic when cleansing conditions.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    Then come out with this "A player cleanse 12 stacks of burning = 12 seconds of immunity"

    Because the same player can apply those stacks during the battle along an extended period of time instead mashing all the meditation skills at the same time to overload the foe with a burst.
    So even if the enemy cleanse the condition it can be reaplied quickly.
    If only cleanse 1 stack(independently of the duration) the immunity will last only 1 sec.

    As i said, Burst and conditions should not be in the same sentence.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    At least, I always thought Torment should count as movement impairing condition. Same as chill, immob, cripple.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Given I rarely see condition builds anymore outside the mesmer and scourge, I see no reasons as to why conditions need to be weakened yet further. In light of the raw damage a power build can output in a MUCH shorter priod of time lowering the overall damage of conditions just makes it even harder for them to survive long enough to get those kills in. There were plenty of tools added last go round to address conditions to the point some builds can be all but immune to them and I do not see how even more nerfs justified.

    As to "Conditions should not be applied in a burst" . This absolutely WRONG in light of all those cleanse abilities via traits, sigils and runes. There are fewer and fewer windows between potential cleanses in which one can apply conditions. Without the ability to burst inside those windows of opportunity , what remains of condition builds would disappear.

    See this is one thing a lot of people aren't considering. With power being so high and lethal at the moment everyone is stocking up on power mitigation and scaling defence to the point where they're sacrificing cleanses. This does skew the view of scourge and mirage as being over the top in some ways and they forget that other condition builds aren't really viable either or how irrelevant they're rendered when a FB is in a fight.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @everyman.4375 said:
    Confusion and Torment are also realy low in duration.

    I think torment is ok. The problem with confusion isn't really the duration its the rate of reapplication compared to condi clear cooldowns. So once you cleanse confusion, you have a very tiny window to damage the Mirage. But what typically happens is that you can't because of they will be invul, evade, disengage, stealth or you have to manually click through their army of clutter to find the right Mirage. By that time a fresh stack of confusion is already reapplied.

    This creates a "stop and go" or red light, green light approach to fighting Mirage. One which most players will not win, not to mention plain unfun. I believe the problem is a multitude of things. Ranging from the rate of which Mirage can apply confusion and that they don't have a glaring weakness since all of their defensive skills, disengage ability, stealth, de-target and clone screen clutter covers any weakness they may have. From a balance perspective, something has to give.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Torment is fine as it is but one change that needs to happen is how confusion is cleansed.

    Cleansing abilities shouldn't count towards confusing damage on use.

    They don't if the abilities are instant cast.

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Given I rarely see condition builds anymore outside the mesmer and scourge, I see no reasons as to why conditions need to be weakened yet further. In light of the raw damage a power build can output in a MUCH shorter priod of time lowering the overall damage of conditions just makes it even harder for them to survive long enough to get those kills in. There were plenty of tools added last go round to address conditions to the point some builds can be all but immune to them and I do not see how even more nerfs justified.

    As to "Conditions should not be applied in a burst" . This absolutely WRONG in light of all those cleanse abilities via traits, sigils and runes. There are fewer and fewer windows between potential cleanses in which one can apply conditions. Without the ability to burst inside those windows of opportunity , what remains of condition builds would disappear.

    See this is one thing a lot of people aren't considering. With power being so high and lethal at the moment everyone is stocking up on power mitigation and scaling defence to the point where they're sacrificing cleanses. This does skew the view of scourge and mirage as being over the top in some ways and they forget that other condition builds aren't really viable either or how irrelevant they're rendered when a FB is in a fight.

    Huh? I don't think anyone has really sacrificed condition survivability right now. Warriors are running Signet of Stamina (Cleanse all conditions) and Shake it Off (6 condition cleanse. 2x). Guardians are still running full meditations with plenty of cleanses. Boonbeasts are absurdly resilient towards condition damage pretty much by default. Elixir Holos have solid defenses against conditions with Elixir S and all the automatic conversions built into Elixirs and Holosmith traitlines.

    Really it's just Revenants and Necormancers that really really struggle with conditions.

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  • jakt.9381jakt.9381 Member ✭✭

    Lets just remove condi damage at this point. I mean its already dead and now we want further reduction of effectiveness.

    Meanwhile we have one shot builds being posted regularly, but everyone loves power right so nbd. Seems to me like condi damage isnt the issue here and people just get real mad when they get outplayed by mesmers. I think its worse bc when a mesmer outplays you, they end up really making you look worse than if you were beat by a necro or something. Yeah they are a strong class but nerfing condi isnt going to do jack to bring this class in line with all the power variants we have.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @everyman.4375 said:
    Confusion and Torment are also realy low in duration.

    Torment actually have some really high durations on the professions that apply it consistently

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  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hey guys, to prevent people talking out of their rear ends, I put links to the wiki pages of the damaging conditions while also showing the damage formulae.

    If you click the links it lists every skill/trait/utility that applies it so can check the duration.

    Torment duration in general are the 2nd longest of all damaging conditions, generally longer than poisons, much longer than burn and confusion.

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    Thats an interesting take on those conditions I hadnt thought out of, the damage aspect seems relatively ok however I do agree the duration should go down by quite a lot. For a game that relies so much on active combat, not being to move or use abilities for extended periods of times does not feel good on the receiving end unless you are running condi clear out of the kazoo, and even then a mirage will give you issues.

    I think this can be fixed by decreasing the duration of torment overall on mesmers, necros, and I think the only one that can abuse confusion as it is is mirage, so I think only that one needs to be revised. I would also like to see more speccs with access to confusion, cuz as it is now, mesmers have access to almost all boons and condis while other classes, like ele, have only bleed and burns, with no masking conditions other than very limited vuln.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    Thats an interesting take on those conditions I hadnt thought out of, the damage aspect seems relatively ok however I do agree the duration should go down by quite a lot. For a game that relies so much on active combat, not being to move or use abilities for extended periods of times does not feel good on the receiving end unless you are running condi clear out of the kazoo, and even then a mirage will give you issues.

    I think this can be fixed by decreasing the duration of torment overall on mesmers, necros, and I think the only one that can abuse confusion as it is is mirage, so I think only that one needs to be revised. I would also like to see more speccs with access to confusion, cuz as it is now, mesmers have access to almost all boons and condis while other classes, like ele, have only bleed and burns, with no masking conditions other than very limited vuln.

    Please list the duration with cool downs of the boons and conditions mesmer has access to on any one build.

    Also as I said not 1 post above yours, actually look at skills, confusion duration can't get lower, it would literally be unusable if they were any shorter in duration.

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    Thats an interesting take on those conditions I hadnt thought out of, the damage aspect seems relatively ok however I do agree the duration should go down by quite a lot. For a game that relies so much on active combat, not being to move or use abilities for extended periods of times does not feel good on the receiving end unless you are running condi clear out of the kazoo, and even then a mirage will give you issues.

    I think this can be fixed by decreasing the duration of torment overall on mesmers, necros, and I think the only one that can abuse confusion as it is is mirage, so I think only that one needs to be revised. I would also like to see more speccs with access to confusion, cuz as it is now, mesmers have access to almost all boons and condis while other classes, like ele, have only bleed and burns, with no masking conditions other than very limited vuln.

    Please list the duration with cool downs of the boons and conditions mesmer has access to on any one build.

    Also as I said not 1 post above yours, actually look at skills, confusion duration can't get lower, it would literally be unusable if they were any shorter in duration.

    I never said they have access to all skills at once, all I said is they have access to them. Mesmers have a variety of builds available to them; power shatter mirage, power shatter chrono, bunker chrono (yes, it still somewhat works, not broken but VERY viable), condi mirage, and condi-bunky-ish chrono. Even within the same builds they have some wiggle room on some traits and amulets.... meanwhile some classes dont even have one functional specc worth taking over the "meta" builds like Soulb, spellb, holo, FB, core guar, etc.

    Now, dont misinterpret that as "nerf mesmers because they have several builds viable" but rather bring other classes to that level. But, think about it, if a single class has THAT many available speccs, which work in so many shapes and forms and iterations, then perhaps, just perhaps, they might be overtuned overall and thats why almost anything works(?).

  • Robertdebrus.7184Robertdebrus.7184 Member ✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @anduriell.6280 You are looking for two boons, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability .
    They do what you want, while allowing for counterplay from the person applying conditions
    Counterplay goes both ways

    EDIT:
    Also, It seems the problem seems to be that Mirage can produce so many conditions while keeping their stealths, invulns, clones, etc., not the conditions per se

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    Thats an interesting take on those conditions I hadnt thought out of, the damage aspect seems relatively ok however I do agree the duration should go down by quite a lot. For a game that relies so much on active combat, not being to move or use abilities for extended periods of times does not feel good on the receiving end unless you are running condi clear out of the kazoo, and even then a mirage will give you issues.

    I think this can be fixed by decreasing the duration of torment overall on mesmers, necros, and I think the only one that can abuse confusion as it is is mirage, so I think only that one needs to be revised. I would also like to see more speccs with access to confusion, cuz as it is now, mesmers have access to almost all boons and condis while other classes, like ele, have only bleed and burns, with no masking conditions other than very limited vuln.

    Please list the duration with cool downs of the boons and conditions mesmer has access to on any one build.

    Also as I said not 1 post above yours, actually look at skills, confusion duration can't get lower, it would literally be unusable if they were any shorter in duration.

    I never said they have access to all skills at once, all I said is they have access to them. Mesmers have a variety of builds available to them; power shatter mirage, power shatter chrono, bunker chrono (yes, it still somewhat works, not broken but VERY viable), condi mirage, and condi-bunky-ish chrono. Even within the same builds they have some wiggle room on some traits and amulets.... meanwhile some classes dont even have one functional specc worth taking over the "meta" builds like Soulb, spellb, holo, FB, core guar, etc.

    Now, dont misinterpret that as "nerf mesmers because they have several builds viable" but rather bring other classes to that level. But, think about it, if a single class has THAT many available speccs, which work in so many shapes and forms and iterations, then perhaps, just perhaps, they might be overtuned overall and thats why almost anything works(?).

    Functional builds? How are you defining that because while power mirage, bunker chrono, power chrono and condi chrono are functional in that you can play them don't take that to mean that any of them are close to as good as condi mirage and other than bunker chrono not strong vs current meta specs.

    Depending on your definition of functional a lot of classes actually have more options where engineers have at least 2 holosmith and a scrapper build that's OK. Rangers have druid, 2 soulbeast and a core ranger build that are all actually pretty decent and have an impact on the game. Sure some classes have far less variety like war/ele/rev and some have 1-2 good options and then a few not very good options but still able to be OK in a niche like thief/mesmer.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree that torment durations should be shaved in a number of places such as axe ambush.

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  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    Then come out with this "A player cleanse 12 stacks of burning = 12 seconds of immunity"

    Because the same player can apply those stacks during the battle along an extended period of time instead mashing all the meditation skills at the same time to overload the foe with a burst.
    So even if the enemy cleanse the condition it can be reaplied quickly.
    If only cleanse 1 stack(independently of the duration) the immunity will last only 1 sec.

    As i said, Burst and conditions should not be in the same sentence.

    Do you actually play PvP? I mean, I don't play much, but even I understand that you can't be effective in PvP without being able to apply pressure.

  • @anduriell.6280 said:
    I think those two control conditions are fine, although in PvP should be pure in their design:

    • Torment should do only damage while moving.
    • Confusion should do damage only when casting an ability which is not the auto-attack.

    What should be looked upon is how easy is to apply an kitten amount of long lasting stacks in one burst. Because the word "burst" should not be associated to condition.

    Limiting the number of stacks in not a solution as it would limit the impact a build has thus making the condition builds useless. Nerf the damage or duration i don't think is the right approach as again it would diminish the impact a condi player has in the game.

    What would be the solution?

    • When a condition is actively cleansed by the player an special buff is applied which makes the player immune for the application of the same condition for shot time.
    • This buff should be applied only when the player use an active skill to cleanse the conditions. This is for to avoid staking immunity in zergs, only players which actively use cleanses to cleanse their conditions would benefit from this effect.

    Example:

    • Conditions which can stack: 1 second immunity to that condition for each stack.
    • Condition which don't have stacks: Fixed time of immunity.
    • A player cleanse 12 stacks of burning = 12 seconds of immunity to burning
    • A player cleanse stun or daze ( independently of duration left ) = 1 second immunity to daze or stun (depending on the original condition).

    As such players which use the conditions the way they are supposed to be will keep the ticking with very low downtime. Meanwhile those that smash the buttons to burst down because they keep applying new conditions every second will be less effective as a player which can cleanse one of those stacks would become immune for long time to that condition. Also The cheesy perma-lock stuns builds would loose the effectivity giving the player an actual opportunity to counter the attack.

    The best is this change would not need special coding as it would only affect players and definitely not PvE mobs. Well maybe some future PvE mob which Anet want to give this special kind of mechanic when cleansing conditions.

    I agree but then you have to do other condi to mesmer otherwise it is unviable. In my opinion there are 2 ways : or anet delete at all the condition mechanics, leaving only direct damage for all classes, otherwise, as exist burst direct damage there should exist also condi burst. One of the 2 .... delete all condi or let condi viable .

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Mesmers are saying it is okay to stack confusion and torment in large amounts because they have counter-plays which includes not moving and not using any skills to negate the bulk of the damage.
    Not moving and not using any skills = getting stunned/dazed
    Stunned/dazed = a control effect
    Confusion/Torment = control effect

    IMO damaging conditions should not come with an extra restriction on player mobility and actions which torment and confusion does.
    The restrictive nature of confusion and torment in addition to them being a condition that does damage makes it more OP than the other damaging conditions like bleeds, burns and to some extent, poison.

    If we take a look at the other damaging condition that comes with a restriction on the player?
    Traited Fear on Necro does that.
    But for such a 'strong' control and traited damage skill, it cannot be stacked, does kitten damage, is very short in duration, has very few ways to be applied, and is countered by at least 4 mechanisms (stability, stunbreak, condi cleanse/transfer, resistance).

    Confusion and Torment which are both strong control conditions, should not be so easily applied, stackable, and doing so much damage.
    It needs a re-look to bring it in-line with control effects because they are precisely that.
    Not allowing a player to move or act.
    Most control effects are low in damage and short in duration. Like stuns, dazes, fears, knockbacks etc.
    Confusion and Torment needs to be balanced in the same manner.

    This is like arguing Renewed Focus is a control effect because it is unwise to attack a Guardian in the middle of it.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Cleanse and resistance as a 100% mechanic are the biggest issues with condition viability.

    As @babazhook.6805 said: there has to be some window for condition builds to do damage. Cleanse and resistance can reduce that down to effectively or actually 0. Perma immunity to conditions builds exist. Asking for even less condi damage or duration is not reasonable when so few condi builds are viable.

    The best solution is to remove all cleanses and nerf resistance to 33% THEN talk about needing specific professions ability to apply conditions.

    However, that is unlikely to happen because cleanse is a core mechanic. If duration of a condition is an issue then you need to equip cleanses. There are more than enough in the current meta.

    Condi Mirage isn’t an issue for people because of condi. It is an issue because it is tanky while doing lots of damage.

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  • Lucentfir.7430Lucentfir.7430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    Imo, if we were going to touch on Torment and Confusion my ideas would be the following since most changes will most likely leak over into PVE, and I also think they fit better thematically.

    Torment - Torment no longer deals additional damage while moving, instead does increased damage for every debilitating condition the target suffers from(33% per).

    Confusion -When a confused foe's attack/skill is negated or reduced(Blocked/Evaded/invuln/misses/glancing blow) deal damage(20% more damage than current confusion). Skill activation damage does 50% less damage if skills are not negated or reduced. (Skills that hit multiple targets will count for full confusion damage if any of the targets negate or reduce the attack)

  • santenal.1054santenal.1054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    There needs to be added an internal cooldown (1s) to the "damage on skill activation" before anything else. (Damage done once every second like all other damage conditions)(this had to be done years ago), After that is done the devs can start properly balancing condition mesmer (nerfing/buffing/changing things).

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    I made this post about just this a while back. I said that confusion should behave more like retaliation, in that it should only stack in duration, not in intensity.

  • Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    Conditions need a COMPLETE REWORK

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

  • First we need to nerf confusion because it ticked too much damage passively. So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon. I mean, can we just say what it really is? You want to remove mesmer.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @santenal.1054 said:
    There needs to be added an internal cooldown (1s) to the "damage on skill activation" before anything else. (Damage done once every second like all other damage conditions)(this had to be done years ago), After that is done the devs can start properly balancing condition mesmer (nerfing/buffing/changing things).

    This is a great idea.

  • Simonoly.4352Simonoly.4352 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    Torment and Confusion are not control conditions. They are damaging conditions that have certain requirements to achieve their full damage - torment from moving, Confusion from skill activation. This means that, unlike Bleeding, burning and poison where you either take the full damage or cleanse, with confusion and torment you can actually adjust your behaviour in addition to cleansing. If you have 5 stacks of bleeding put on you and you do nothing, you take full damage from those bleed stacks. However, if it's five stacks of confusion, you could weapon stow and take an insignificant amount of damage.

    Whilst torment and confusion are potent conditions, the logic that they're OP because there's more ways to reduce the damage taken is a bit odd. Confusion and torment exist to lend flavour to the conditions in the game that's all.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @santenal.1054 said:
    There needs to be added an internal cooldown (1s) to the "damage on skill activation" before anything else. (Damage done once every second like all other damage conditions)(this had to be done years ago), After that is done the devs can start properly balancing condition mesmer (nerfing/buffing/changing things).

    Fantastic idea, while they're at it can we get an AI to play the game for us while watching GoT? I don't want to have to do any of this "thinking" business.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

    This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    I think those two control conditions are fine, although in PvP should be pure in their design:

    • Torment should do only damage while moving.
    • Confusion should do damage only when casting an ability which is not the auto-attack.

    ^ That's the golden ticket right there. Good suggestion, it would solve almost all of the balance issues tied to confuse & torment. Additionally, confuse should not deal damage when it is being cleansed by an actively used condi clear. <- This is largely why Mirages are broken, because that condition WILL deal damage to you, regardless of how many clears you have and how fast you are at using them.

    To the people who keep insisting: "Just stand still, stop using skills."

    ^ That is a cop-out response and people need to stop using it. The reality is there are more often than not, situations where you cannot stop moving or stop using skills unless you want to die. More often than not, you aren't getting some favorable 1v1 against a Mirage where the stars align and everything works out in your favor. More often than not things happen like this: "You are 1v1ing a Scourge and about to kill it on a node, but a Mirage randomly appears out of no where with his stealth into burst combo after using blink/jaunt. Now you have 15 stacks of confusion and 15 stacks of torment and god knows what other condis." Is it a good idea to stop moving, stand still for awhile, and not use skills? Rofl yeah alright.

    Anyway, it can be argued that confuse/torment are not equal to hard CCs, but they are definitely soft CCs and apply extra pressure in different ways than normal conditions. Sure, sometimes in 1v1 situations it can be useful to stand still and stop using skills if there is an advantageous moment to do so, but we're talking a second at most, or sometimes a fraction of second realistically, and sometimes you don't even have that kind of time. So stop bluffing this discussion off with such an unrealistic response as "Just stand still, stop using skills", because 9/10x it just doesn't work out that way.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

    This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

    Actually you don't need to stand still on confusion, it doesn't proc off movement so confusion isn't making you stand there. I can put 100 confusion (not possible btw) on you and you can run to LoS me not use a skill and be fine after 3s with it completely gone and you took 100x10x3 = 3000 as the dot.

    Your issue is not a confusion issue, it's a torment issue as you're standing there.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

    This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

    Actually you don't need to stand still on confusion, it doesn't proc off movement so confusion isn't making you stand there. I can put 100 confusion (not possible btw) on you and you can run to LoS me not use a skill and be fine after 3s with it completely gone and you took 100x10x3 = 3000 as the dot.

    Your issue is not a confusion issue, it's a torment issue as you're standing there.

    I was talking about confusion AND torment. Hence the STOW your weapon AND stand still.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    It's actually an interesting idea to make both torment and confusion become duration only boons.

    Torment would still deal damage over time, but build a stack (of same remaining duration) every 1/2 second if you are moving that reduces movement speed with 4%.

    Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

    This would allow both cleanses and Expertise a place, and the conditions would still rely on smart play from the inflicted one. It also would reward application timing and aggressive play forcing the accumulation of stacks.

    Another aspect are how power based builds with access to might stacking could benefit from runes/sigils applying and lengthening the condition in order to pressure hard right after.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    I said almost since the game release that condis should have a hard cap, akin to GW1. Let's say for the sake of example 5k, you put up enough condis stacks to deal 7k, your total damage would still be 5k, your target puts regen on himself, regen gets negated by the extra 2k.
    Of course ANet needed to delete resistance and lower the condi removal.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

    This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

    There is also the problem of Hybrid Mirages.
    They don't just do condi damage, but power damage as well.
    Stow weapon and stand still against a hybrid mirage? :/

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

    This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

    Actually you don't need to stand still on confusion, it doesn't proc off movement so confusion isn't making you stand there. I can put 100 confusion (not possible btw) on you and you can run to LoS me not use a skill and be fine after 3s with it completely gone and you took 100x10x3 = 3000 as the dot.

    Your issue is not a confusion issue, it's a torment issue as you're standing there.

    I was talking about confusion AND torment. Hence the STOW your weapon AND stand still.

    Well then maybe you should have put the word torment in your post instead of only confusion.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @rng.1024 said:
    Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

    Retaliation was nerfed in pvp because players complained about the damage. They would kill themselves when they attacked the target. Sounds familiar? Confusion and retaliation are similar in function. One punishes you for attacking the player, the other punishes you by using skills. Both require you to stop attacking in order to make the damage stop.

    The difference is retaliation stacks in duration and it only does around 244 dmg per hit and can multiply the more targets you hit with retaliation. While confusion stacks in intensity and can two shot a player with enough stacks, which btw Mirage has no problems pumping out. Mirage players will come to defend this and say its not the same. But it IS THE EXACT same. No one would want to be two shotted by retaliation and be told to stop attack or bring boon strip if they have a problem with it.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

    This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

    Actually you don't need to stand still on confusion, it doesn't proc off movement so confusion isn't making you stand there. I can put 100 confusion (not possible btw) on you and you can run to LoS me not use a skill and be fine after 3s with it completely gone and you took 100x10x3 = 3000 as the dot.

    Your issue is not a confusion issue, it's a torment issue as you're standing there.

    I was talking about confusion AND torment. Hence the STOW your weapon AND stand still.

    Well then maybe you should have put the word torment in your post instead of only confusion.

    Fair enough.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    I think those two control conditions are fine, although in PvP should be pure in their design:

    • Torment should do only damage while moving.
    • Confusion should do damage only when casting an ability which is not the auto-attack.

    ^ That's the golden ticket right there. Good suggestion, it would solve almost all of the balance issues tied to confuse & torment. Additionally, confuse should not deal damage when it is being cleansed by an actively used condi clear. <- This is largely why Mirages are broken, because that condition WILL deal damage to you, regardless of how many clears you have and how fast you are at using them.

    To the people who keep insisting: "Just stand still, stop using skills."

    ^ That is a cop-out response and people need to stop using it. The reality is there are more often than not, situations where you cannot stop moving or stop using skills unless you want to die. More often than not, you aren't getting some favorable 1v1 against a Mirage where the stars align and everything works out in your favor. More often than not things happen like this: "You are 1v1ing a Scourge and about to kill it on a node, but a Mirage randomly appears out of no where with his stealth into burst combo after using blink/jaunt. Now you have 15 stacks of confusion and 15 stacks of torment and god knows what other condis." Is it a good idea to stop moving, stand still for awhile, and not use skills? Rofl yeah alright.

    Anyway, it can be argued that confuse/torment are not equal to hard CCs, but they are definitely soft CCs and apply extra pressure in different ways than normal conditions. Sure, sometimes in 1v1 situations it can be useful to stand still and stop using skills if there is an advantageous moment to do so, but we're talking a second at most, or sometimes a fraction of second realistically, and sometimes you don't even have that kind of time. So stop bluffing this discussion off with such an unrealistic response as "Just stand still, stop using skills", because 9/10x it just doesn't work out that way.

    Confusion would literally never kill anyone ever again if it didn't proc on autoattacks. Think about how many builds just auto and auto and auto. Thieves when they jump you, rangers both Boonbeast and Sic Em variants, weavers, spellbreakers as you kite them around the node, holosmiths in both rifle and while in photon forge.

    You take a condition which has build in counter play and make it impossible for most people to NOT counter play it without even trying and without having to think about it. In fact the less a player thinks the weaker it would be under this suggestion.

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    Conditions need a COMPLETE REWORK

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

    Posting this over and over again doesn't make it any less of a bad suggestion each time. Especially since condition damage is already dead on all classes outside of scourge and condition mirage.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    First we need to nerf confusion because it ticked too much damage passively. So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon. I mean, can we just say what it really is? You want to remove mesmer.

    Actually... the passive damage was added for pve reasons and they reverted it back for pvp/wvw reasons.

    Not that it matters but I dont think any class should have heavy access to both those conditions but in the bigger picture of the pvp health this topic is trivial.

    Im mistaken a lot or people are looking to argue but I want to clarify im not disagreeing with you or agreeing with you.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    Apologies if I come off as dry or blunt.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

    Retaliation was nerfed in pvp because players complained about the damage. They would kill themselves when they attacked the target. Sounds familiar? Confusion and retaliation are similar in function. One punishes you for attacking the player, the other punishes you by using skills. Both require you to stop attacking in order to make the damage stop.

    The difference is retaliation stacks in duration and it only does around 244 dmg per hit and can multiply the more targets you hit with retaliation. While confusion stacks in intensity and can two shot a player with enough stacks, which btw Mirage has no problems pumping out. Mirage players will come to defend this and say its not the same. But it IS THE EXACT same. No one would want to be two shotted by retaliation and be told to stop attack or bring boon strip if they have a problem with it.

    Actually it's not the same.

    Retal does damage per hit.
    Confusion does damage per skill use.

    Most skills in the game will hit multiple targets 3-5.
    Some skills will hit multiple times on a single enemy like , rapid fire, arc lightning etc.
    Some skills hit multiple times on multiple targets like hundred blades, pistol whip, blurred frenzy and these are death sentences against retal.

    If you hit 5 targets with retal who give back 244 damage with 1 skill and you take 1220 damage, that is not insignificant.

    Now bonus question, how many stacks of confusion does it take to do that much damage at 1505 condition damage?

    Answer is (0.0975*1505)+49.5 = 196. 1220/196 = 6.2 so we will round it down to 6 to make everyone feel happy.

    Edit: Put example skills in the wrong place.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

    Retaliation was nerfed in pvp because players complained about the damage. They would kill themselves when they attacked the target. Sounds familiar? Confusion and retaliation are similar in function. One punishes you for attacking the player, the other punishes you by using skills. Both require you to stop attacking in order to make the damage stop.

    The difference is retaliation stacks in duration and it only does around 244 dmg per hit and can multiply the more targets you hit with retaliation. While confusion stacks in intensity and can two shot a player with enough stacks, which btw Mirage has no problems pumping out. Mirage players will come to defend this and say its not the same. But it IS THE EXACT same. No one would want to be two shotted by retaliation and be told to stop attack or bring boon strip if they have a problem with it.

    Actually it's not the same.

    Retal does damage per hit.
    Confusion does damage per skill use.

    Most skills in the game will hit multiple targets 3-5.
    Some skills will hit multiple times on a single enemy like , rapid fire, arc lightning etc.
    Some skills hit multiple times on multiple targets like hundred blades, pistol whip, blurred frenzy and these are death sentences against retal.

    If you hit 5 targets with retal who give back 244 damage with 1 skill and you take 1220 damage, that is not insignificant.

    Now bonus question, how many stacks of confusion does it take to do that much damage at 1505 condition damage?

    Answer is (0.0975*1505)+49.5 = 196. 1220/196 = 6.2 so we will round it down to 6 to make everyone feel happy.

    Edit: Put example skills in the wrong place.

    For example:

    @ 3minutes, 16 seconds.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

    Retaliation was nerfed in pvp because players complained about the damage. They would kill themselves when they attacked the target. Sounds familiar? Confusion and retaliation are similar in function. One punishes you for attacking the player, the other punishes you by using skills. Both require you to stop attacking in order to make the damage stop.

    The difference is retaliation stacks in duration and it only does around 244 dmg per hit and can multiply the more targets you hit with retaliation. While confusion stacks in intensity and can two shot a player with enough stacks, which btw Mirage has no problems pumping out. Mirage players will come to defend this and say its not the same. But it IS THE EXACT same. No one would want to be two shotted by retaliation and be told to stop attack or bring boon strip if they have a problem with it.

    Actually it's not the same.

    Retal does damage per hit.
    Confusion does damage per skill use.

    Most skills in the game will hit multiple targets 3-5.
    Some skills will hit multiple times on a single enemy like , rapid fire, arc lightning etc.
    Some skills hit multiple times on multiple targets like hundred blades, pistol whip, blurred frenzy and these are death sentences against retal.

    If you hit 5 targets with retal who give back 244 damage with 1 skill and you take 1220 damage, that is not insignificant.

    Now bonus question, how many stacks of confusion does it take to do that much damage at 1505 condition damage?

    Answer is (0.0975*1505)+49.5 = 196. 1220/196 = 6.2 so we will round it down to 6 to make everyone feel happy.

    Edit: Put example skills in the wrong place.

    No I disagree, its quite similar. And I already stated that retaliation damage can multiply the more targets it has. But that situation is conditional. Are you suggesting by chance that....its hard for Mirage to achieve 6 stacks of confusion?

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

    Retaliation was nerfed in pvp because players complained about the damage. They would kill themselves when they attacked the target. Sounds familiar? Confusion and retaliation are similar in function. One punishes you for attacking the player, the other punishes you by using skills. Both require you to stop attacking in order to make the damage stop.

    The difference is retaliation stacks in duration and it only does around 244 dmg per hit and can multiply the more targets you hit with retaliation. While confusion stacks in intensity and can two shot a player with enough stacks, which btw Mirage has no problems pumping out. Mirage players will come to defend this and say its not the same. But it IS THE EXACT same. No one would want to be two shotted by retaliation and be told to stop attack or bring boon strip if they have a problem with it.

    Actually it's not the same.

    Retal does damage per hit.
    Confusion does damage per skill use.

    Most skills in the game will hit multiple targets 3-5.
    Some skills will hit multiple times on a single enemy like , rapid fire, arc lightning etc.
    Some skills hit multiple times on multiple targets like hundred blades, pistol whip, blurred frenzy and these are death sentences against retal.

    If you hit 5 targets with retal who give back 244 damage with 1 skill and you take 1220 damage, that is not insignificant.

    Now bonus question, how many stacks of confusion does it take to do that much damage at 1505 condition damage?

    Answer is (0.0975*1505)+49.5 = 196. 1220/196 = 6.2 so we will round it down to 6 to make everyone feel happy.

    Edit: Put example skills in the wrong place.

    No I disagree, its quite similar. And I already stated that retaliation damage can multiply the more targets it has. But that situation is conditional. Are you suggesting by chance that....its hard for Mirage to achieve 6 stacks of confusion?

    Strawman more please. I am not suggesting it's hard to get 6 stacks of confusion.

    What I'm saying is that the 2 are very different and scale very different while depending on a multitude of different factors and being applied differently too. They are not comparable at all.

    The only thing they have in common is they punish you for attacking.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    Strawman more please. I am not suggesting it's hard to get 6 stacks of confusion.

    If that is what you think I'm doing. Then that is on you. I asked the question simply because I was asking if that is what you were suggesting.

    @apharma.3741 said:

    What I'm saying is that the 2 are very different and scale very different while depending on a multitude of different factors and being applied differently too. They are not comparable at all.

    Why did Anet abandon hexes and curses from gw1 and unified them with conditions?

    @apharma.3741 said:

    The only thing they have in common is they punish you for attacking.

    Correct. Its why they are the same.

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