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Confusion and Torment are 'Control' conditions and needs a re-look


EremiteAngel.9765

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Mesmers are saying it is okay to stack confusion and torment in large amounts because they have counter-plays which includes not moving and not using any skills to negate the bulk of the damage.Not moving and not using any skills = getting stunned/dazedStunned/dazed = a control effectConfusion/Torment = control effect

IMO damaging conditions should not come with an extra restriction on player mobility and actions which torment and confusion does.The restrictive nature of confusion and torment in addition to them being a condition that does damage makes it more OP than the other damaging conditions like bleeds, burns and to some extent, poison.

If we take a look at the other damaging condition that comes with a restriction on the player?Traited Fear on Necro does that.But for such a 'strong' control and traited damage skill, it cannot be stacked, does crap damage, is very short in duration, has very few ways to be applied, and is countered by at least 4 mechanisms (stability, stunbreak, condi cleanse/transfer, resistance).

Confusion and Torment which are both strong control conditions, should not be so easily applied, stackable, and doing so much damage.It needs a re-look to bring it in-line with control effects because they are precisely that.Not allowing a player to move or act.Most control effects are low in damage and short in duration. Like stuns, dazes, fears, knockbacks etc.Confusion and Torment needs to be balanced in the same manner.

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@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Mesmers are saying it is okay to stack confusion and torment in large amounts because they have counter-plays which includes not moving and not using any skills to negate the bulk of the damage.Not moving and not using any skills = getting stunned/dazedStunned/dazed = a control effectConfusion/Torment = control effect

IMO damaging conditions should not come with an extra restriction on player mobility and actions which torment and confusion does.The restrictive nature of confusion and torment in addition to them being a condition that does damage makes it more OP than the other damaging conditions like bleeds, burns and to some extent, poison.

If we take a look at the other damaging condition that comes with a restriction on the player?Traited Fear on Necro does that.But for such a 'strong' control and traited damage skill, it cannot be stacked, does kitten damage, is very short in duration, has very few ways to be applied, and is countered by at least 4 mechanisms (stability, stunbreak, condi cleanse/transfer, resistance).

Confusion and Torment which are both strong control conditions, should not be so easily applied, stackable, and doing so much damage.It needs a re-look to bring it in-line with control effects because they are precisely that.Not allowing a player to move or act.Most control effects are low in damage and short in duration. Like stuns, dazes, fears, knockbacks etc.Confusion and Torment needs to be balanced in the same manner.

OK so firstly don't start saying something is equal to something when it isn't you're getting to false equivalency. When you have confusion on you you can still use skills, when you have torment on you movement is still possible it just hurts a lot if you choose to do so with high stacks however when dazed or stunned you cannot without a stunbreak. Additionally control effects are binary while torment and confusion are scaling.

Confusion I think for the most part it's actually in a decent place after they reduced most duration to 2-3s max and it's very difficult to push that higher for the investment needed. You can stop using skills, LoS till it's gone and in general wait it out as well as cleanse. You also don't take that much damage per skill use, about 196 at 1505 condition damage per stack so even at 10 stacks (1960) this is doing far less than what auto attacks on power players will do. Even at the OMGWTFROFLMOA 24 stacks per skill activation is 4,709 damage which would require you to have been hit by 2-3 major sources at a time, can you say that you would take less damage from power being hit by 3 attacks?

Torment is where I think the main problem really lies, you can't really run around and kite with torment on you, just move as little as possible. Unfortunately this means being essentially a sitting duck in many cases as kiting is one of the biggest ways to avoid damage especially with damage itself being so high. Torment's stationary damage is actually even lower than bleed which I think is really good but it's moving damage is about 50% higher than poison and double what you take stationary, this I think is a bit too high for the game as it is but has only recently become an issue for the reason I'll say below. At 1505 condition damage moving does 167 damage per stack, not moving is 83 damage.

So what's the problem if both on paper look fine or at least not overbearing?

1) When both conditions are in combination in moderate to high amounts it creates an oppressive build to fight. You can't move around much and you have to constantly watch your skill use and keep track of your stacks of confusion. Each way of countering the condition feeds into the other (not using skills, not moving too much) to apply more and more conditions and damage meaning without plenty of hard cleansing or resistance it's a fight many can't win.

2) Torment was never meant to be applied in the amounts we see today. Neither was confusion tbh but that's been addressed by reducing most confusion duration across the board to 2-3s. Torment hasn't been addressed and you frequently see scourges and mirages keeping 7+ torment on people effortlessly all the time. For reference as above at 7 stacks that's 585 damage not moving and 1169 for moving and it's not like it's gone in 3s like confusion, torment will last for a long time, 8-9s duration and adding a little in duration will improve it a lot.

At the end of the day I think most mirage complaints really come from the 2 conditions used together as well as some pretty bonkers stacking of torment where mirage can get you to 12-20 stacks of torment reliably which will make you take 1000-1660 damage for not moving at all and pretty much double that for moving.

To fix it, I dunno. Replace the torment with bleeding or poison might be an avenue to explore and reduce the stacks and duration a bit on the ambush skills as well as illusionary counter and axe skills.

Edit: Additionally upping the cool downs on axe/scepter skills to be more in line with what we would see at launch is something I'd like to see but this applies to all classes and their elite spec weapons, it's not mesmer exclusive.

Damage formula:Confusion:(0.1 Level) + 2 damage per stack per second. 10 damage per stack per second at level 80. -DoT(0.0975 Condition Damage) + 49.5 damage per stack. - Activation

Torment:(0.045 Condition Damage) + 15.9 damage per stack per second. - Stationary.(0.09 Condition Damage) + 31.8 damage per stack per second at level 80. -Moving.

Burning:(0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131 damage per stack per second at Level 80.

Poison:(0.06 * Condition Damage) + 33.5 damage per stack per second at level 80.

Bleeding:(0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second at level 80.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusionhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tormenthttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burninghttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleedinghttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Poisoned

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I think those two control conditions are fine, although in PvP should be pure in their design:

  • Torment should do only damage while moving.
  • Confusion should do damage only when casting an ability which is not the auto-attack.

What should be looked upon is how easy is to apply an retarded amount of long lasting stacks in one burst. Because the word "burst" should not be associated to condition.

Limiting the number of stacks in not a solution as it would limit the impact a build has thus making the condition builds useless. Nerf the damage or duration i don't think is the right approach as again it would diminish the impact a condi player has in the game.

What would be the solution?

  • When a condition is actively cleansed by the player an special buff is applied which makes the player immune for the application of the same condition for shot time.
  • This buff should be applied only when the player use an active skill to cleanse the conditions. This is for to avoid staking immunity in zergs, only players which actively use cleanses to cleanse their conditions would benefit from this effect.

Example:

  • Conditions which can stack: 1 second immunity to that condition for each stack.
  • Condition which don't have stacks: Fixed time of immunity.
  • A player cleanse 12 stacks of burning = 12 seconds of immunity to burning
  • A player cleanse stun or daze ( independently of duration left ) = 1 second immunity to daze or stun (depending on the original condition).

As such players which use the conditions the way they are supposed to be will keep the ticking with very low downtime. Meanwhile those that smash the buttons to burst down because they keep applying new conditions every second will be less effective as a player which can cleanse one of those stacks would become immune for long time to that condition. Also The cheesy perma-lock stuns builds would loose the effectivity giving the player an actual opportunity to counter the attack.

The best is this change would not need special coding as it would only affect players and definitely not PvE mobs. Well maybe some future PvE mob which Anet want to give this special kind of mechanic when cleansing conditions.

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@"anduriell.6280" said:I think those two control conditions are fine, although in PvP should be pure in their design:

  • Torment should do only damage while moving.
  • Confusion should do damage only when casting an ability which is not the auto-attack.

What should be looked upon is how easy is to apply an kitten amount of long lasting stacks in one burst. Because the word "burst" should not be associated to condition.

Limiting the number of stacks in not a solution as it would limit the impact a build has thus making the condition builds useless. Nerf the damage or duration i don't think is the right approach as again it would diminish the impact a condi player has in the game.

What would be the solution?

  • When a condition is actively cleansed by the player an special buff is applied which makes the player immune for the application of the same condition for shot time.
  • This buff should be applied only when the player use an active skill to cleanse the conditions. This is for to avoid staking immunity in zergs, only players which actively use cleanses to cleanse their conditions would benefit of this effect.

Example:

  • Conditions which can stack: 1 second immunity to that condition for each stack.
  • Condition which can stack: Fixed time of immunity.
  • A player cleanse 12 stacks of burning = 12 seconds of immunity
  • A player cleanse stun = 1 second immunity.

As such players which use the conditions the way they are supposed to be will keep the ticking with very low downtime. Meanwhile those that smash the buttons to burst down because they keep applying new conditions every second will be less effective as a player which can cleanse one of those stacks would become immune for long time to that condition. Also The cheesy perma-lock stuns builds would loose the effectivity giving the player an actual opportunity to counter the attack.

The best is this change would not need special coding as it would only affect players and definitely not PvE mobs. Well maybe some future PvE mob which Anet want to give this special kind of mechanic when cleansing conditions.

This is a troll right?

How can you say this: "Limiting the number of stacks in not a solution as it would limit the impact a build has thus making the condition builds useless. Nerf the damage or duration i don't think is the right approach as again it would diminish the impact a condi player has in the game. "

Then come out with this "A player cleanse 12 stacks of burning = 12 seconds of immunity"

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@"apharma.3741" said:

Then come out with this "A player cleanse 12 stacks of burning = 12 seconds of immunity"Because the same player can apply those stacks during the battle along an extended period of time instead mashing all the meditation skills at the same time to overload the foe with a burst.So even if the enemy cleanse the condition it can be reaplied quickly.If only cleanse 1 stack(independently of the duration) the immunity will last only 1 sec.

As i said, Burst and conditions should not be in the same sentence.

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Given I rarely see condition builds anymore outside the mesmer and scourge, I see no reasons as to why conditions need to be weakened yet further. In light of the raw damage a power build can output in a MUCH shorter priod of time lowering the overall damage of conditions just makes it even harder for them to survive long enough to get those kills in. There were plenty of tools added last go round to address conditions to the point some builds can be all but immune to them and I do not see how even more nerfs justified.

As to "Conditions should not be applied in a burst" . This absolutely WRONG in light of all those cleanse abilities via traits, sigils and runes. There are fewer and fewer windows between potential cleanses in which one can apply conditions. Without the ability to burst inside those windows of opportunity , what remains of condition builds would disappear.

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@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Mesmers are saying it is okay to stack confusion and torment in large amounts because they have counter-plays which includes not moving and not using any skills to negate the bulk of the damage.Not moving and not using any skills = getting stunned/dazedStunned/dazed = a control effectConfusion/Torment = control effect

A player uses a direct damage skill which does 5k damage.You do not dodge or block the attack.You are hit for 5k damage.

A player uses a condition damage skill which does a total of 5k damage.You do not dodge or block the attack.You are affected for x amount of seconds taking 5k damage.

Not moving and not casting is not the counter play to confusion and torment. Not getting the conditions applied or cleansing is.

Now we can argue about the amount of condition application (and specific to torment and confusion how much the penalty for triggering them is, though I believe most of their damage has been rolled into the passive tick already), the damage they do (considering conditions ignore armor) and condition cleanse requirements. But please don't use false equivalence to try to make a point.

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@"babazhook.6805" said:Given I rarely see condition builds anymore outside the mesmer and scourge, I see no reasons as to why conditions need to be weakened yet further. In light of the raw damage a power build can output in a MUCH shorter priod of time lowering the overall damage of conditions just makes it even harder for them to survive long enough to get those kills in. There were plenty of tools added last go round to address conditions to the point some builds can be all but immune to them and I do not see how even more nerfs justified.

As to "Conditions should not be applied in a burst" . This absolutely WRONG in light of all those cleanse abilities via traits, sigils and runes. There are fewer and fewer windows between potential cleanses in which one can apply conditions. Without the ability to burst inside those windows of opportunity , what remains of condition builds would disappear.

See this is one thing a lot of people aren't considering. With power being so high and lethal at the moment everyone is stocking up on power mitigation and scaling defence to the point where they're sacrificing cleanses. This does skew the view of scourge and mirage as being over the top in some ways and they forget that other condition builds aren't really viable either or how irrelevant they're rendered when a FB is in a fight.

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@"everyman.4375" said:Confusion and Torment are also realy low in duration.

I think torment is ok. The problem with confusion isn't really the duration its the rate of reapplication compared to condi clear cooldowns. So once you cleanse confusion, you have a very tiny window to damage the Mirage. But what typically happens is that you can't because of they will be invul, evade, disengage, stealth or you have to manually click through their army of clutter to find the right Mirage. By that time a fresh stack of confusion is already reapplied.

This creates a "stop and go" or red light, green light approach to fighting Mirage. One which most players will not win, not to mention plain unfun. I believe the problem is a multitude of things. Ranging from the rate of which Mirage can apply confusion and that they don't have a glaring weakness since all of their defensive skills, disengage ability, stealth, de-target and clone screen clutter covers any weakness they may have. From a balance perspective, something has to give.

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@phokus.8934 said:Torment is fine as it is but one change that needs to happen is how confusion is cleansed.

Cleansing abilities shouldn't count towards confusing damage on use.

They don't if the abilities are instant cast.

@apharma.3741 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:Given I rarely see condition builds anymore outside the mesmer and scourge, I see no reasons as to why conditions need to be weakened yet further. In light of the raw damage a power build can output in a MUCH shorter priod of time lowering the overall damage of conditions just makes it even harder for them to survive long enough to get those kills in. There were plenty of tools added last go round to address conditions to the point some builds can be all but immune to them and I do not see how even more nerfs justified.

As to "Conditions should not be applied in a burst" . This absolutely WRONG in light of all those cleanse abilities via traits, sigils and runes. There are fewer and fewer windows between potential cleanses in which one can apply conditions. Without the ability to burst inside those windows of opportunity , what remains of condition builds would disappear.

See this is one thing a lot of people aren't considering. With power being so high and lethal at the moment everyone is stocking up on power mitigation and scaling defence to the point where they're sacrificing cleanses. This does skew the view of scourge and mirage as being over the top in some ways and they forget that other condition builds aren't really viable either or how irrelevant they're rendered when a FB is in a fight.

Huh? I don't think anyone has really sacrificed condition survivability right now. Warriors are running Signet of Stamina (Cleanse all conditions) and Shake it Off (6 condition cleanse. 2x). Guardians are still running full meditations with plenty of cleanses. Boonbeasts are absurdly resilient towards condition damage pretty much by default. Elixir Holos have solid defenses against conditions with Elixir S and all the automatic conversions built into Elixirs and Holosmith traitlines.

Really it's just Revenants and Necormancers that really really struggle with conditions.

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Lets just remove condi damage at this point. I mean its already dead and now we want further reduction of effectiveness.

Meanwhile we have one shot builds being posted regularly, but everyone loves power right so nbd. Seems to me like condi damage isnt the issue here and people just get real mad when they get outplayed by mesmers. I think its worse bc when a mesmer outplays you, they end up really making you look worse than if you were beat by a necro or something. Yeah they are a strong class but nerfing condi isnt going to do jack to bring this class in line with all the power variants we have.

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Hey guys, to prevent people talking out of their rear ends, I put links to the wiki pages of the damaging conditions while also showing the damage formulae.

If you click the links it lists every skill/trait/utility that applies it so can check the duration.

Torment duration in general are the 2nd longest of all damaging conditions, generally longer than poisons, much longer than burn and confusion.

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Thats an interesting take on those conditions I hadnt thought out of, the damage aspect seems relatively ok however I do agree the duration should go down by quite a lot. For a game that relies so much on active combat, not being to move or use abilities for extended periods of times does not feel good on the receiving end unless you are running condi clear out of the kazoo, and even then a mirage will give you issues.

I think this can be fixed by decreasing the duration of torment overall on mesmers, necros, and I think the only one that can abuse confusion as it is is mirage, so I think only that one needs to be revised. I would also like to see more speccs with access to confusion, cuz as it is now, mesmers have access to almost all boons and condis while other classes, like ele, have only bleed and burns, with no masking conditions other than very limited vuln.

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@Fortus.6175 said:Thats an interesting take on those conditions I hadnt thought out of, the damage aspect seems relatively ok however I do agree the duration should go down by quite a lot. For a game that relies so much on active combat, not being to move or use abilities for extended periods of times does not feel good on the receiving end unless you are running condi clear out of the kazoo, and even then a mirage will give you issues.

I think this can be fixed by decreasing the duration of torment overall on mesmers, necros, and I think the only one that can abuse confusion as it is is mirage, so I think only that one needs to be revised. I would also like to see more speccs with access to confusion, cuz as it is now, mesmers have access to almost all boons and condis while other classes, like ele, have only bleed and burns, with no masking conditions other than very limited vuln.

Please list the duration with cool downs of the boons and conditions mesmer has access to on any one build.

Also as I said not 1 post above yours, actually look at skills, confusion duration can't get lower, it would literally be unusable if they were any shorter in duration.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@"Fortus.6175" said:Thats an interesting take on those conditions I hadnt thought out of, the damage aspect seems relatively ok however I do agree the duration should go down by quite a lot. For a game that relies so much on
active
combat, not being to move or use abilities for extended periods of times does not feel good on the receiving end unless you are running condi clear out of the kazoo, and even then a mirage will give you issues.

I think this can be fixed by decreasing the duration of torment overall on mesmers, necros, and I think the only one that can abuse confusion as it is is mirage, so I think only that one needs to be revised. I would also like to see more speccs with access to confusion, cuz as it is now, mesmers have access to almost all boons and condis while other classes, like ele, have only bleed and burns, with no masking conditions other than very limited vuln.

Please list the duration with cool downs of the boons and conditions mesmer has access to on any one build.

Also as I said not 1 post above yours, actually look at skills, confusion duration can't get lower, it would literally be unusable if they were any shorter in duration.

I never said they have access to all skills at once, all I said is they have access to them. Mesmers have a variety of builds available to them; power shatter mirage, power shatter chrono, bunker chrono (yes, it still somewhat works, not broken but VERY viable), condi mirage, and condi-bunky-ish chrono. Even within the same builds they have some wiggle room on some traits and amulets.... meanwhile some classes dont even have one functional specc worth taking over the "meta" builds like Soulb, spellb, holo, FB, core guar, etc.

Now, dont misinterpret that as "nerf mesmers because they have several builds viable" but rather bring other classes to that level. But, think about it, if a single class has THAT many available speccs, which work in so many shapes and forms and iterations, then perhaps, just perhaps, they might be overtuned overall and thats why almost anything works(?).

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@"anduriell.6280" You are looking for two boons, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability .They do what you want, while allowing for counterplay from the person applying conditionsCounterplay goes both ways

EDIT:Also, It seems the problem seems to be that Mirage can produce so many conditions while keeping their stealths, invulns, clones, etc., not the conditions per se

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@Fortus.6175 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:Thats an interesting take on those conditions I hadnt thought out of, the damage aspect seems relatively ok however I do agree the duration should go down by quite a lot. For a game that relies so much on
active
combat, not being to move or use abilities for extended periods of times does not feel good on the receiving end unless you are running condi clear out of the kazoo, and even then a mirage will give you issues.

I think this can be fixed by decreasing the duration of torment overall on mesmers, necros, and I think the only one that can abuse confusion as it is is mirage, so I think only that one needs to be revised. I would also like to see more speccs with access to confusion, cuz as it is now, mesmers have access to almost all boons and condis while other classes, like ele, have only bleed and burns, with no masking conditions other than very limited vuln.

Please list the duration with cool downs of the boons and conditions mesmer has access to on any one build.

Also as I said not 1 post above yours, actually look at skills, confusion duration can't get lower, it would literally be unusable if they were any shorter in duration.

I never said they have access to all skills at once, all I said is they have access to them. Mesmers have a variety of builds available to them; power shatter mirage, power shatter chrono, bunker chrono (yes, it still somewhat works, not broken but VERY viable), condi mirage, and condi-bunky-ish chrono. Even within the same builds they have some wiggle room on some traits and amulets.... meanwhile some classes dont even have one functional specc worth taking over the "meta" builds like Soulb, spellb, holo, FB, core guar, etc.

Now, dont misinterpret that as "nerf mesmers because they have several builds viable" but rather bring other classes to that level. But, think about it, if a single class has THAT many available speccs, which work in so many shapes and forms and iterations, then perhaps, just perhaps, they might be overtuned overall and thats why almost anything works(?).

Functional builds? How are you defining that because while power mirage, bunker chrono, power chrono and condi chrono are functional in that you can play them don't take that to mean that any of them are close to as good as condi mirage and other than bunker chrono not strong vs current meta specs.

Depending on your definition of functional a lot of classes actually have more options where engineers have at least 2 holosmith and a scrapper build that's OK. Rangers have druid, 2 soulbeast and a core ranger build that are all actually pretty decent and have an impact on the game. Sure some classes have far less variety like war/ele/rev and some have 1-2 good options and then a few not very good options but still able to be OK in a niche like thief/mesmer.

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:

Then come out with this "A player cleanse 12 stacks of burning = 12 seconds of immunity"Because the same player can apply those stacks during the battle along an extended period of time instead mashing all the meditation skills at the same time to overload the foe with a burst.So even if the enemy cleanse the condition it can be reaplied quickly.If only cleanse 1 stack(independently of the duration) the immunity will last only 1 sec.

As i said, Burst and conditions should not be in the same sentence.

Do you actually play PvP? I mean, I don't play much, but even I understand that you can't be effective in PvP without being able to apply pressure.

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@"anduriell.6280" said:I think those two control conditions are fine, although in PvP should be pure in their design:

  • Torment should do only damage while moving.
  • Confusion should do damage only when casting an ability which is not the auto-attack.

What should be looked upon is how easy is to apply an kitten amount of long lasting stacks in one burst. Because the word "burst" should not be associated to condition.

Limiting the number of stacks in not a solution as it would limit the impact a build has thus making the condition builds useless. Nerf the damage or duration i don't think is the right approach as again it would diminish the impact a condi player has in the game.

What would be the solution?

  • When a condition is actively cleansed by the player an special buff is applied which makes the player immune for the application of the same condition for shot time.
  • This buff should be applied only when the player use an active skill to cleanse the conditions. This is for to avoid staking immunity in zergs, only players which actively use cleanses to cleanse their conditions would benefit from this effect.

Example:

  • Conditions which can stack: 1 second immunity to that condition for each stack.
  • Condition which don't have stacks: Fixed time of immunity.
  • A player cleanse 12 stacks of burning = 12 seconds of immunity to burning
  • A player cleanse stun or daze ( independently of duration left ) = 1 second immunity to daze or stun (depending on the original condition).

As such players which use the conditions the way they are supposed to be will keep the ticking with very low downtime. Meanwhile those that smash the buttons to burst down because they keep applying new conditions every second will be less effective as a player which can cleanse one of those stacks would become immune for long time to that condition. Also The cheesy perma-lock stuns builds would loose the effectivity giving the player an actual opportunity to counter the attack.

The best is this change would not need special coding as it would only affect players and definitely not PvE mobs. Well maybe some future PvE mob which Anet want to give this special kind of mechanic when cleansing conditions.

I agree but then you have to do other condi to mesmer otherwise it is unviable. In my opinion there are 2 ways : or anet delete at all the condition mechanics, leaving only direct damage for all classes, otherwise, as exist burst direct damage there should exist also condi burst. One of the 2 .... delete all condi or let condi viable .

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@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Mesmers are saying it is okay to stack confusion and torment in large amounts because they have counter-plays which includes not moving and not using any skills to negate the bulk of the damage.Not moving and not using any skills = getting stunned/dazedStunned/dazed = a control effectConfusion/Torment = control effect

IMO damaging conditions should not come with an extra restriction on player mobility and actions which torment and confusion does.The restrictive nature of confusion and torment in addition to them being a condition that does damage makes it more OP than the other damaging conditions like bleeds, burns and to some extent, poison.

If we take a look at the other damaging condition that comes with a restriction on the player?Traited Fear on Necro does that.But for such a 'strong' control and traited damage skill, it cannot be stacked, does kitten damage, is very short in duration, has very few ways to be applied, and is countered by at least 4 mechanisms (stability, stunbreak, condi cleanse/transfer, resistance).

Confusion and Torment which are both strong control conditions, should not be so easily applied, stackable, and doing so much damage.It needs a re-look to bring it in-line with control effects because they are precisely that.Not allowing a player to move or act.Most control effects are low in damage and short in duration. Like stuns, dazes, fears, knockbacks etc.Confusion and Torment needs to be balanced in the same manner.

This is like arguing Renewed Focus is a control effect because it is unwise to attack a Guardian in the middle of it.

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