Im not playing GW2 till necro is fun to play in PVE again — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Im not playing GW2 till necro is fun to play in PVE again

and I MEAN FUN as in not feeling like I hit like a wet noodle with my condi build. not be laughed at for wanting to do raids/challenge motes/T100 fractals ETC. all the nerfs to Epi, complete nerfs to skills like Scepter 3, and just overall turning necro into corrupting boons AND Applying conditions now it is just a boon corrupt bot 99% of the time if you want to do condi damage, but NEWS FLASH most of PVE has no boons and the few enemies that do have either VERY little boons and will not re-apply them so the 1 time you get the corrupt off is the only extra condi you will be doing. I am only logging in to get the free living story episodes, how many do you think I will bank before necro is actually playable again?

<1

Comments

  • @Anchoku.8142 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    and I MEAN FUN as in not feeling like I hit like a wet noodle with my condi build. not be laughed at...

    Necro condi dps is a meme. Don't be that meme. Play... (support Scourge may be a meme, too) ... play... (MM is a meme, too) ... GWEN wells, no... Spin-to-win power-Reaper... maybe core power-mule?

    Condi scourge is roughly 10% below the average benchmark and that is without factoring in the torment movement damage and LF from mob deaths. Yes right now it could get bumped up a bit but is nowhere meme status. That's for builds like power berserkers.

    Support scourge as well has been a very strong contender for 2nd healer in raid and main healer in fractals. There is no meme status, you are a bit behind times on this one.

    Minions is actually not as bad as you think as well with death magic, the issue comes in that it only really works in raid 1/2 where the mob trigger death nova. Power reaper is also about 10% off. Yes the class could stand to give a buff but people really need to stop perpetrating necro is an unplayable meme as you are only hurting the class overall by giving the people's perception when in reality is only a bit below where it should be, especially when support scourge itself is a popular build right now.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    how many do you think I will bank before necro is actually playable again?

    How long before YOU play necro again? Never. You have unrealistic expectations and are being sensational.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm having fun playing my condi scourge in PvE. Also my power reaper. Not sure why you think it's not fun.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    Guess someone hasn't been paying attention to the new instabilities for fractals.

    Necro isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Guess someone hasn't been paying attention to the new instabilities for fractals.

    Necro isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

    Who wants to play fractals?
    With the right people they were just an annoyance.

    Didn't play the new instabilities yet though

  • lol. with so many HP and the survival skills it needs more nerf

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Savach.7219 said:
    lol. with so many HP and the survival skills it needs more nerf

    Which survival skills?
    Which survival traits?

  • Etterwyn.5263Etterwyn.5263 Member ✭✭✭

    Can I have, er borrow your stuff?

    There's an unceasing wind, that blows through this night
    And dust in my eyes, that blinds my sight...

  • annsi.4239annsi.4239 Member
    edited January 11, 2019

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    What are you talking about? Condi scourge is fine in PvE.

    It is fine, in open world. As for other PVE content like fractals and raids:

    • is not it same good as other cdps classes? I don't think so..
    • is not it same boons useful as some other classes? I don't think so..

    Please correct me if I'm wrong with proofs^

    I'm playing condi scourge and I'm happy with it, however I don't see point why I would be taken into group instead of many other classes.
    So yes, would be great to see some DPS parity with other condi classes.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    and I MEAN FUN as in not feeling like I hit like a wet noodle with my condi build. not be laughed at...

    Necro condi dps is a meme. Don't be that meme. Play... (support Scourge may be a meme, too) ... play... (MM is a meme, too) ... GWEN wells, no... Spin-to-win power-Reaper... maybe core power-mule?

    Condi scourge is roughly 10% below the average benchmark and that is without factoring in the torment movement damage and LF from mob deaths. Yes right now it could get bumped up a bit but is nowhere meme status. That's for builds like power berserkers.

    Which wouldn't be much of a deal, if everyone was only doing 1k DPS so the difference would only be 100. But we are at ~34k DPS
    And necro in general is 5k behind that, that's not just 10% that's almost 20% behind.
    Other classes also do torment or confusion is an even better example, so you won't be doing much more than those other classes.

    Berserker isn't meant to be played on power, yet you can see kill shot warriors running around in wvw, doing 20-24k dmg with one shot.

    Support scourge as well has been a very strong contender for 2nd healer in raid and main healer in fractals. There is no meme status, you are a bit behind times on this one.

    Oh gosh, this one... Support scourge isn't even that good, if you need a mirror comp it's bad, if people don't go down it's not good.
    It needs a little more of something to be really a strong contender for second healer. Right now, firebrand, ele, rev are just much better.

    Minions is actually not as bad as you think as well with death magic, the issue comes in that it only really works in raid 1/2 where the mob trigger death nova. Power reaper is also about 10% off. Yes the class could stand to give a buff but people really need to stop perpetrating necro is an unplayable meme as you are only hurting the class overall by giving the people's perception when in reality is only a bit below where it should be, especially when support scourge itself is a popular build right now.

    Support scourge would be good if it either did the same DPS as other "support classes" (quickness firebrand, banner warrior, condi-alacrity-rev) or if it could do near the buffs other supports can do like might on druid. But you aren't even able to keep up 25might in most scenarios on 5 people, not to mention that you can't do it on 10. Or give other important boons like fury, protection...

    Minions is bad, it was like 2-3k DPS loss in heavy add-intense fights.

  • I love playing my Reaper and frankly if they left power reaper alone right now i'd be fine with things.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @annsi.4239 said:
    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    What are you talking about? Condi scourge is fine in PvE.

    It is fine, in open world. As for other PVE content like fractals and raids:

    • is not it same good as other cdps classes? I don't think so..
    • is not it same boons useful as some other classes? I don't think so..

    Please correct me if I'm wrong with proofs^

    I'm playing condi scourge and I'm happy with it, however I don't see point why I would be taken into group instead of many other classes.
    So yes, would be great to see some DPS parity with other condi classes.

    AoE
    Boon Strip
    Boon Corrupt
    Barrier from doing DPS

    If you don't understand why those would be desired in T4 fractals, please go read the patch notes from earlier this week.

    Almost daily my LFG group has a Necro in it, about 50% power reaper and 50% condi scourge.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So long as it has access to so much AoE coverage and boon denial with such high inbuilt sustain it will never lead in DPS. Nor should it. These things don't matter in PvE because ANet does not make them matter in PvE. But necromancer is responsible for and continues to have the tightest strangehold on the meta in the PvP modes of all classes.

    Scourge in particular was a mistake because it exacerbated existing problems with necro being entirely what causes metas to change and generally dominant in the PvP formats, while feeling underwhelming in PvE because of how much self-sustain and how much area control they gave it.

    Not to mention that if you're not having fun just because you're not the best for PvE of all things, you should do some evaluation. Necro is one of the most diverse classes due to its specs covering vastly different playstyles, so I highly doubt it's a lack of enjoyment from playstyle.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    and I MEAN FUN as in not feeling like I hit like a wet noodle with my condi build. not be laughed at...

    Necro condi dps is a meme. Don't be that meme. Play... (support Scourge may be a meme, too) ... play... (MM is a meme, too) ... GWEN wells, no... Spin-to-win power-Reaper... maybe core power-mule?

    Condi scourge is roughly 10% below the average benchmark and that is without factoring in the torment movement damage and LF from mob deaths. Yes right now it could get bumped up a bit but is nowhere meme status. That's for builds like power berserkers.

    Which wouldn't be much of a deal, if everyone was only doing 1k DPS so the difference would only be 100. But we are at ~34k DPS
    And necro in general is 5k behind that, that's not just 10% that's almost 20% behind.
    Other classes also do torment or confusion is an even better example, so you won't be doing much more than those other classes.

    Berserker isn't meant to be played on power, yet you can see kill shot warriors running around in wvw, doing 20-24k dmg with one shot.

    Support scourge as well has been a very strong contender for 2nd healer in raid and main healer in fractals. There is no meme status, you are a bit behind times on this one.

    Oh gosh, this one... Support scourge isn't even that good, if you need a mirror comp it's bad, if people don't go down it's not good.
    It needs a little more of something to be really a strong contender for second healer. Right now, firebrand, ele, rev are just much better.

    Minions is actually not as bad as you think as well with death magic, the issue comes in that it only really works in raid 1/2 where the mob trigger death nova. Power reaper is also about 10% off. Yes the class could stand to give a buff but people really need to stop perpetrating necro is an unplayable meme as you are only hurting the class overall by giving the people's perception when in reality is only a bit below where it should be, especially when support scourge itself is a popular build right now.

    Support scourge would be good if it either did the same DPS as other "support classes" (quickness firebrand, banner warrior, condi-alacrity-rev) or if it could do near the buffs other supports can do like might on druid. But you aren't even able to keep up 25might in most scenarios on 5 people, not to mention that you can't do it on 10. Or give other important boons like fury, protection...

    Minions is bad, it was like 2-3k DPS loss in heavy add-intense fights.

    Scourge currently bench 29.4k, I consider average to be about 33k. 10% brings it to 32.3k which is perfectly reasonable due to the passive barrier and cleanse in its rotations. The only real class that does torment and confusion is mirage and everybody knows they are overtuned. The other is renegade but they need huge hitboxes and needs to be melee. Range and the utility scourge brings is a fine trade off to classes that needs to be in melee and offers no other real benefit. I know berserker is not meant to be played as power but I gave a real meme build as an example. Also no, I don't see killshot warriors in wvw doing 20k-24k. what is this HoT era? Besides we are talking about pve here.

    Support scourge has been a strong build for a while now, if you don't believe me then believe snowcrows. Hell half the raid pug these days have a druid and scourge as healer. Is not just about revives but people finally start to realize benefit of barriers and agony reduction in fractals. Plus with the fractal placing more and more emphasis on boon strip, it is on a fine spot in comparison to healer tempest, rev or FB. Really how much more evidence do you need that support scourge is fine. Every raid comp always having 1 like a druid? Grantly I am not against adding regen or fury somewhere but it is nowhere a meme status.

    quickness firebrand, barrier warrior and condi alacrity rev are dps with a side of support. Scourge support is a support as a side of dps added occasionally, is not the same thing. Also yes you can upkeep 25might with BiP, is not really difficult. In 10 you have druid. Protection is not needed with barrier.

    MM is bad yes but again people don't realize is not that bad, I threw that out because the OP seems to think is literally unredeemable.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    So long as it has access to so much AoE coverage and boon denial with such high inbuilt sustain it will never lead in DPS. Nor should it. These things don't matter in PvE because ANet does not make them matter in PvE. But necromancer is responsible for and continues to have the tightest strangehold on the meta in the PvP modes of all classes.

    Scourge in particular was a mistake because it exacerbated existing problems with necro being entirely what causes metas to change and generally dominant in the PvP formats, while feeling underwhelming in PvE because of how much self-sustain and how much area control they gave it.

    Not to mention that if you're not having fun just because you're not the best for PvE of all things, you should do some evaluation. Necro is one of the most diverse classes due to its specs covering vastly different playstyles, so I highly doubt it's a lack of enjoyment from playstyle.

    The thing with necro is that it is a bad Jack of all trades that has a lot of its POTENTIAL DAMAGE locked behind boon corruption, now boon corrupt is good in PVP and zerging WvW, PVE? it is HEAVILY INCONSISTANT AT BEST at worst there is just no boons and your damage is that of a WET NOODLE and the PVE content that does have boons either don't re-apply them in regular intervals to keep getting the value and thus it is just 1 small burst of extra damage at the start that wont matter OR you are in high end PVE Content where you can just bring differing classes with boonstrip and they will just do more damage without needing to corrupt boons but have boon strip so corruption of boons is no longer needed. I as a condi necro player want Epi to be back to transferring FULL 25 STACKS MAX with no reduction in duration of the condis spread to 5 targets instantly, EPI WAS NOT OP THEN heck it was the only reason that condi necro was not DEAD but ever since the latest epi nerf condi necro (and when I say condi necro I do include condi reaper and condi scourge) is dead and not viable at all in any end game content. but here let me say it like this
    Want buffs? get a Revenant or PS warrior and or a Chrono
    Want Damage Warriors. period or Ele's
    Want Support? Druid
    Want Condi Damage? Again Warrior, or Mesmer, or even Rev

    Necro excels only at AOE boon corrupt and that is VERY situational and those situations are only PVP and WvW and not even in every situation I would be fine for them to nerf the AOE boon corrupt and give Necro more HARD condis of bleed, torment, etc that way you remove potency of them in WvW and PvP and give them back strength in PVE, just scepter auto attack 3rd in the AA chain is enough condi corrupt for PVE most of the time you HARDLY IF EVER need more then that

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    So long as it has access to so much AoE coverage and boon denial with such high inbuilt sustain it will never lead in DPS. Nor should it. These things don't matter in PvE because ANet does not make them matter in PvE. But necromancer is responsible for and continues to have the tightest strangehold on the meta in the PvP modes of all classes.

    Scourge in particular was a mistake because it exacerbated existing problems with necro being entirely what causes metas to change and generally dominant in the PvP formats, while feeling underwhelming in PvE because of how much self-sustain and how much area control they gave it.

    Not to mention that if you're not having fun just because you're not the best for PvE of all things, you should do some evaluation. Necro is one of the most diverse classes due to its specs covering vastly different playstyles, so I highly doubt it's a lack of enjoyment from playstyle.

    a lot of its POTENTIAL DAMAGE locked behind boon corruption, now boon corrupt is good in PVP and zerging WvW, PVE? it is HEAVILY INCONSISTANT AT BEST... PVE content that does have boons either don't re-apply them in regular intervals to keep getting the value and thus it is just 1 small burst of extra damage at the start

    This sounds to me like it's a good portion of the problem, then. See, what ANet has failed to do is actually make any PvE encounter even closely resemble PvP such that things like weakness and cripple are worthless to be spewing because bosses don't even get affected by them, and because bosses don't re-apply their boons.

    They could also just as easily give bosses massive applications of vigor and regeneration even if the bosses don't necessarily use these mechanics just to help improve DPS via necro corruption rather than comps opting for boon stripping. And then they could buff the corruption table for things like bleeding/poison for PvE. That's not a necro problem so much as a boss behavior problem. The PvE issues necro has have literally nothing to do with any innate weakness of the class at this point.

    And given the fact that condi scourge is objectively so high on the damage charts as of right now which a ton of people are posting... I don't understand why you'd proclaim it's useless and not fun.

    EPI WAS NOT OP THEN

    Yes it kinda was. 5 necros was meta in fractals for a while and it was so OP that even me as someone who hasn't played PvE in any capacity, including living story since early season 3 heard about it. And it was not skilled and trivialized the entire game. Epi was boring AF to use. Press a button and get obscene damage while you sit there basically doing nothing else. That's not what GW2 is about.

    Want Damage Warriors. period or Ele's
    Want Support? Druid
    Want Condi Damage? Again Warrior, or Mesmer, or even Rev

    Necro excels only at AOE boon corrupt and that is VERY situational and those situations are only PVP and WvW and not even in every situation I would be fine for them to nerf the AOE boon corrupt and give Necro more HARD condis of bleed, torment, etc that way you remove potency of them in WvW and PvP and give them back strength in PVE, just scepter auto attack 3rd in the AA chain is enough condi corrupt for PVE most of the time you HARDLY IF EVER need more then that

    If necro excels at any of those categories it becomes the best class period, because then there's no identity for the other classes to fulfill because it has such high baseline potential in all three without needing build investment thanks to shroud's innate defenses and the utility scourge brings.

    It's not meant to be an optimal condition damage dealer, either. It's meant to utilize conditions to control fights, like through weakness to negate incoming damage and fear and cripple to lock down and kite enemies. Again, this is a problem with the encounters in "high end" PvE; they're all extremely narrow-scoped, and to be honest, as soon as necro advances in something over another class, someone else gets thrown out of the meta. Even if everyone did exactly the same damage, people would kick because one class would be more reliable in dealing its damage at more levels of skill or have slightly higher self-sustain.

    Necro can't be balanced with the trinity system in mind because GW2 as a whole wasn't ever intended to have the trinity system and "high end" PvE in mind from a class perspective. Adjusting the classes will not fix PvE because the issues in PvE are bigger than numbers tweaks to professions.

    And if you nerf necro's corruption ability, then many professions also need to be nerfed in their boon applications, especially Firebrand. I agree with this, but it's impossible to do in a fair way because of Concentration and how overpowered boons are. So then ANet needs to nerf a lot of boons and baseline damage coefficients and condition application because without nerfs to direct power everyone will just one-shot one another once boons are nerfed out of the meta. And then necro ends up needing to get nerfed because it outdamages everything, can tank super well thanks to its high baseline levels of sustain, and can shut down the limited number of resistance floating around. So then you're back at square 1 because something else will out-DPS it.

    While I'd love to see the above happen because the PvP modes aren't that fun anymore when everyone has massively-inflated stats and necros thus basically control the game, anything short of a full-on game-wide rework of all professions breaks virtually everything.

    Much easier to make some better encounters that the necro is good into, and maybe buff its corruption in PvE-only so it means even a small fraction of what it does in the PvP modes.

    Because if it mattered as much as it does in the PvP modes, we'd see most groups probably running 2 FB 8 scourge.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Xxnecroxx.4039Xxnecroxx.4039 Member ✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    So long as it has access to so much AoE coverage and boon denial with such high inbuilt sustain it will never lead in DPS. Nor should it. These things don't matter in PvE because ANet does not make them matter in PvE. But necromancer is responsible for and continues to have the tightest strangehold on the meta in the PvP modes of all classes.

    Scourge in particular was a mistake because it exacerbated existing problems with necro being entirely what causes metas to change and generally dominant in the PvP formats, while feeling underwhelming in PvE because of how much self-sustain and how much area control they gave it.

    Not to mention that if you're not having fun just because you're not the best for PvE of all things, you should do some evaluation. Necro is one of the most diverse classes due to its specs covering vastly different playstyles, so I highly doubt it's a lack of enjoyment from playstyle.

    a lot of its POTENTIAL DAMAGE locked behind boon corruption, now boon corrupt is good in PVP and zerging WvW, PVE? it is HEAVILY INCONSISTANT AT BEST... PVE content that does have boons either don't re-apply them in regular intervals to keep getting the value and thus it is just 1 small burst of extra damage at the start

    This sounds to me like it's a good portion of the problem, then. See, what ANet has failed to do is actually make any PvE encounter even closely resemble PvP such that things like weakness and cripple are worthless to be spewing because bosses don't even get affected by them, and because bosses don't re-apply their boons.

    They could also just as easily give bosses massive applications of vigor and regeneration even if the bosses don't necessarily use these mechanics just to help improve DPS via necro corruption rather than comps opting for boon stripping. And then they could buff the corruption table for things like bleeding/poison for PvE. That's not a necro problem so much as a boss behavior problem. The PvE issues necro has have literally nothing to do with any innate weakness of the class at this point.

    And given the fact that condi scourge is objectively so high on the damage charts as of right now which a ton of people are posting... I don't understand why you'd proclaim it's useless and not fun.

    EPI WAS NOT OP THEN

    Yes it kinda was. 5 necros was meta in fractals for a while and it was so OP that even me as someone who hasn't played PvE in any capacity, including living story since early season 3 heard about it. And it was not skilled and trivialized the entire game. Epi was boring AF to use. Press a button and get obscene damage while you sit there basically doing nothing else. That's not what GW2 is about.

    Want Damage Warriors. period or Ele's
    Want Support? Druid
    Want Condi Damage? Again Warrior, or Mesmer, or even Rev

    Necro excels only at AOE boon corrupt and that is VERY situational and those situations are only PVP and WvW and not even in every situation I would be fine for them to nerf the AOE boon corrupt and give Necro more HARD condis of bleed, torment, etc that way you remove potency of them in WvW and PvP and give them back strength in PVE, just scepter auto attack 3rd in the AA chain is enough condi corrupt for PVE most of the time you HARDLY IF EVER need more then that

    If necro excels at any of those categories it becomes the best class period, because then there's no identity for the other classes to fulfill because it has such high baseline potential in all three without needing build investment thanks to shroud's innate defenses and the utility scourge brings.

    It's not meant to be an optimal condition damage dealer, either. It's meant to utilize conditions to control fights, like through weakness to negate incoming damage and fear and cripple to lock down and kite enemies. Again, this is a problem with the encounters in "high end" PvE; they're all extremely narrow-scoped, and to be honest, as soon as necro advances in something over another class, someone else gets thrown out of the meta. Even if everyone did exactly the same damage, people would kick because one class would be more reliable in dealing its damage at more levels of skill or have slightly higher self-sustain.

    Necro can't be balanced with the trinity system in mind because GW2 as a whole wasn't ever intended to have the trinity system and "high end" PvE in mind from a class perspective. Adjusting the classes will not fix PvE because the issues in PvE are bigger than numbers tweaks to professions.

    And if you nerf necro's corruption ability, then many professions also need to be nerfed in their boon applications, especially Firebrand. I agree with this, but it's impossible to do in a fair way because of Concentration and how overpowered boons are. So then ANet needs to nerf a lot of boons and baseline damage coefficients and condition application because without nerfs to direct power everyone will just one-shot one another once boons are nerfed out of the meta. And then necro ends up needing to get nerfed because it outdamages everything, can tank super well thanks to its high baseline levels of sustain, and can shut down the limited number of resistance floating around. So then you're back at square 1 because something else will out-DPS it.

    While I'd love to see the above happen because the PvP modes aren't that fun anymore when everyone has massively-inflated stats and necros thus basically control the game, anything short of a full-on game-wide rework of all professions breaks virtually everything.

    Much easier to make some better encounters that the necro is good into, and maybe buff its corruption in PvE-only so it means even a small fraction of what it does in the PvP modes.

    Because if it mattered as much as it does in the PvP modes, we'd see most groups probably running 2 FB 8 scourge.

    your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt not condi applying that is why Epi was needed to be somewhat OP so that you could spread at least to a degree that single target damage to multiple enemies or Necro would need to have THE BEST single target damage amongst all classes to balance out their poor AoE damage when you compare say a warrior able to do their high power damage without any build up to multiple mobs, and you keep saying necro has high sustain, it does not have that much sustain because it does not give that many boons to itself or allies, the only REALLY notable thing is death shroud which that can EASILY be burned out of quit quickly that is the only thing truly "sustain" about necros unless you speck into low damage but high sustain with the trait that turns 10% of condi damage into heals (can't think of the name off the top of my head" and I NEVER SAID i wanted necro TO BE THE BE ALL END ALL DAMAGE and it should out damage every class, no i want it to be on par if not SLIGHTLY BETTER due to its long ramp up time to get its damage going and that unless it is kept up upon that damage will be lost unlike power builds. again that is where Epi was great because it offered a damage boost for co-ordination and only on certain encounters where there was adds to bounce them to the boss. to bring 2 necros or more and using that co-ordination should be rewarded so really in PVE no EPI was not OP because it was severly needed since necro has no good AoE condition application other then Epi but now Epi is pretty much near worthless and your part about making End game PVE feel more like PVP that would be bad because people playing PVE want to play PVE they don't want to play PVE but feel like they are playing PVP or else they would just play PVP

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019

    When will people come to the conclusion that Necro, or any other class for that matter, isn't based on their own ideas of what it should be? I can't even imagine at this point what Anet could possibly do to appease such a high player requirement as demonstrated by this thread (and all the other OP's complain threads) while maintaining the theme of the class. The things the OP is talking about are managing numbers level complaints; 'numbers level issues' isn't what holds this class back.

    It's pretty simple; the class theme doesn't suit you and it's not changing; that's what Especs are for. If the especs don't suit you either, time to choose a better class fit for you. If that's a sticking point for you, just move on.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭

    The thread is titled for PvE, but in WvW scourge rivals herald as top DPS , to the point about 30-50% of squads are scourges. Just think about that for a minute.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    So long as it has access to so much AoE coverage and boon denial with such high inbuilt sustain it will never lead in DPS. Nor should it. These things don't matter in PvE because ANet does not make them matter in PvE. But necromancer is responsible for and continues to have the tightest strangehold on the meta in the PvP modes of all classes.

    Scourge in particular was a mistake because it exacerbated existing problems with necro being entirely what causes metas to change and generally dominant in the PvP formats, while feeling underwhelming in PvE because of how much self-sustain and how much area control they gave it.

    Not to mention that if you're not having fun just because you're not the best for PvE of all things, you should do some evaluation. Necro is one of the most diverse classes due to its specs covering vastly different playstyles, so I highly doubt it's a lack of enjoyment from playstyle.

    a lot of its POTENTIAL DAMAGE locked behind boon corruption, now boon corrupt is good in PVP and zerging WvW, PVE? it is HEAVILY INCONSISTANT AT BEST... PVE content that does have boons either don't re-apply them in regular intervals to keep getting the value and thus it is just 1 small burst of extra damage at the start

    This sounds to me like it's a good portion of the problem, then. See, what ANet has failed to do is actually make any PvE encounter even closely resemble PvP such that things like weakness and cripple are worthless to be spewing because bosses don't even get affected by them, and because bosses don't re-apply their boons.

    They could also just as easily give bosses massive applications of vigor and regeneration even if the bosses don't necessarily use these mechanics just to help improve DPS via necro corruption rather than comps opting for boon stripping. And then they could buff the corruption table for things like bleeding/poison for PvE. That's not a necro problem so much as a boss behavior problem. The PvE issues necro has have literally nothing to do with any innate weakness of the class at this point.

    And given the fact that condi scourge is objectively so high on the damage charts as of right now which a ton of people are posting... I don't understand why you'd proclaim it's useless and not fun.

    EPI WAS NOT OP THEN

    Yes it kinda was. 5 necros was meta in fractals for a while and it was so OP that even me as someone who hasn't played PvE in any capacity, including living story since early season 3 heard about it. And it was not skilled and trivialized the entire game. Epi was boring AF to use. Press a button and get obscene damage while you sit there basically doing nothing else. That's not what GW2 is about.

    Want Damage Warriors. period or Ele's
    Want Support? Druid
    Want Condi Damage? Again Warrior, or Mesmer, or even Rev

    Necro excels only at AOE boon corrupt and that is VERY situational and those situations are only PVP and WvW and not even in every situation I would be fine for them to nerf the AOE boon corrupt and give Necro more HARD condis of bleed, torment, etc that way you remove potency of them in WvW and PvP and give them back strength in PVE, just scepter auto attack 3rd in the AA chain is enough condi corrupt for PVE most of the time you HARDLY IF EVER need more then that

    If necro excels at any of those categories it becomes the best class period, because then there's no identity for the other classes to fulfill because it has such high baseline potential in all three without needing build investment thanks to shroud's innate defenses and the utility scourge brings.

    It's not meant to be an optimal condition damage dealer, either. It's meant to utilize conditions to control fights, like through weakness to negate incoming damage and fear and cripple to lock down and kite enemies. Again, this is a problem with the encounters in "high end" PvE; they're all extremely narrow-scoped, and to be honest, as soon as necro advances in something over another class, someone else gets thrown out of the meta. Even if everyone did exactly the same damage, people would kick because one class would be more reliable in dealing its damage at more levels of skill or have slightly higher self-sustain.

    Necro can't be balanced with the trinity system in mind because GW2 as a whole wasn't ever intended to have the trinity system and "high end" PvE in mind from a class perspective. Adjusting the classes will not fix PvE because the issues in PvE are bigger than numbers tweaks to professions.

    And if you nerf necro's corruption ability, then many professions also need to be nerfed in their boon applications, especially Firebrand. I agree with this, but it's impossible to do in a fair way because of Concentration and how overpowered boons are. So then ANet needs to nerf a lot of boons and baseline damage coefficients and condition application because without nerfs to direct power everyone will just one-shot one another once boons are nerfed out of the meta. And then necro ends up needing to get nerfed because it outdamages everything, can tank super well thanks to its high baseline levels of sustain, and can shut down the limited number of resistance floating around. So then you're back at square 1 because something else will out-DPS it.

    While I'd love to see the above happen because the PvP modes aren't that fun anymore when everyone has massively-inflated stats and necros thus basically control the game, anything short of a full-on game-wide rework of all professions breaks virtually everything.

    Much easier to make some better encounters that the necro is good into, and maybe buff its corruption in PvE-only so it means even a small fraction of what it does in the PvP modes.

    Because if it mattered as much as it does in the PvP modes, we'd see most groups probably running 2 FB 8 scourge.

    your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt not condi applying that is why Epi was needed to be somewhat OP so that you could spread at least to a degree that single target damage to multiple enemies or Necro would need to have THE BEST single target damage amongst all classes to balance out their poor AoE damage when you compare say a warrior able to do their high power damage without any build up to multiple mobs, and you keep saying necro has high sustain, it does not have that much sustain because it does not give that many boons to itself or allies, the only REALLY notable thing is death shroud which that can EASILY be burned out of quit quickly that is the only thing truly "sustain" about necros unless you speck into low damage but high sustain with the trait that turns 10% of condi damage into heals (can't think of the name off the top of my head" and I NEVER SAID i wanted necro TO BE THE BE ALL END ALL DAMAGE and it should out damage every class, no i want it to be on par if not SLIGHTLY BETTER due to its long ramp up time to get its damage going and that unless it is kept up upon that damage will be lost unlike power builds. again that is where Epi was great because it offered a damage boost for co-ordination and only on certain encounters where there was adds to bounce them to the boss. to bring 2 necros or more and using that co-ordination should be rewarded so really in PVE no EPI was not OP because it was severly needed since necro has no good AoE condition application other then Epi but now Epi is pretty much near worthless and your part about making End game PVE feel more like PVP that would be bad because people playing PVE want to play PVE they don't want to play PVE but feel like they are playing PVP or else they would just play PVP

    How does one argue that something need to be OP because that's how damage is applied but that it's not OP because that's what the players needed?

    Also, what the players need has no bearing on whether or not something is OP. OP is about balance and whether or not something is too strong. It's also worth pointing out that if end game PVE content worked closer to how PvP/WvW you'd easily solve most of Necromancers problems, I.E. if bosses actually reapplied their boons or spread boons so that Necromancers had something to corrupt. At a technical level PvP/WvW/PvE are all pretty much the same. What changes is who you fight against. PvP/WvW have you facing players so you naturally have different builds that are designed to be more adaptable to fighting real people but the basic mechanics of what your builds are doing doesn't change all that much. When you are learning how to do raids you aren't learning how to play your profession mechanically different from what you do in PvP but how to handle bosses and mobs and the unique mechanics therein.

    However, if bosses acted closer to players you'd find that what works for Necromancer in PvP would work in PvE.

  • @Infusion.7149 said:
    The thread is titled for PvE, but in WvW scourge rivals herald as top DPS , to the point about 30-50% of squads are scourges. Just think about that for a minute.

    you answered your own post, this is about PVE not PVP or WvW

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    When will people come to the conclusion that Necro, or any other class for that matter, isn't based on their own ideas of what it should be? I can't even imagine at this point what Anet could possibly do to appease such a high player requirement as demonstrated by this thread (and all the other OP's complain threads) while maintaining the theme of the class. The things the OP is talking about are managing numbers level complaints; 'numbers level issues' isn't what holds this class back.

    It's pretty simple; the class theme doesn't suit you and it's not changing; that's what Especs are for. If the especs don't suit you either, time to choose a better class fit for you. If that's a sticking point for you, just move on.

    thing is though is that necros were fun and viable in PVE for quite a while and then about over 9000 nerfs later is current necro.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019

    Fun is subjective .. there is no way Anet can deliver directly to you what you ask because you have associated fun with balance when their isn't any correlation at all. Despite those nerfs, lots of people still have fun. It's a weak argument when people start linking balance to 'fun'. It's so meaningless and unmeasurable.

    Doesn't change what I said. Sounds like you choose the wrong class to play; if your criteria links 'balanced' to what is 'fun', better find a different class.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    I have a lot of fun playing my support scourge in open world PVE and five-person content. It's great when I jump into a world boss fight or other big event dogpile and start doing my thing with barriers and heals and somebody goes "Holy kitten there's real players here!" Helping other players -- it's not just for instances anymore!

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019

    The crux of the issue, I think, is that Necro still has a lot of the old selfish combat mechanics and traits.

    Necro support capability can be distilled to taking Blood Magic and/or Desert Empowerment. No other traits have any significant group utility. The few support-ish weapon skills and utilities weak. Other professions can provide valuable boons or combat mechanics on dps builds or go full support with greater effectiveness.

    The Blood Magic rework years ago was great and barrier sharing is good but those two new features do not add enough ways to support team members.

    • Staff 4 remains bereft of group utility from its nerf long ago.
    • Barrier sharing looses value as group skill increases
    • Regen (Staff 2 and focus 4) does not stack and the highest healing power has priority.
    • Life Siphon, dagger 2, cannot be shared.
    • Soft CC is rendered useless by Defiance - so much for Necro's main support mechanic.
    • Wells are not split between game modes and buffed for PvE
    • Corruptions, spectral, minions, shouts and punishment utilities feel bad vs Defiance but, yay, work on break bars.
  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    Fun is subjective .. there is no way Anet can deliver directly to you what you ask because you have associated fun with balance when their isn't any correlation at all. Despite those nerfs, lots of people still have fun. It's a weak argument when people start linking balance to 'fun'. It's so meaningless and unmeasurable.

    Doesn't change what I said. Sounds like you choose the wrong class to play; if your criteria links 'balanced' to what is 'fun', better find a different class.

    would you find your main class that you have put thousands of hours into and thousands of gold and grinding to make look amazing, would you have fun with it if one balance patch they gutted them to be terrible, their damage numbers are poo, your character is no longer accepted in high end end game content, you have nothing special about your class anymore, no special boons to share and the kind of job that you can do it can easily be out done by other classes in every way (this is PVE BTW)

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Fun is subjective .. there is no way Anet can deliver directly to you what you ask because you have associated fun with balance when their isn't any correlation at all. Despite those nerfs, lots of people still have fun. It's a weak argument when people start linking balance to 'fun'. It's so meaningless and unmeasurable.

    Doesn't change what I said. Sounds like you choose the wrong class to play; if your criteria links 'balanced' to what is 'fun', better find a different class.

    would you find your main class that you have put thousands of hours into and thousands of gold and grinding to make look amazing, would you have fun with it if one balance patch they gutted them to be terrible, their damage numbers are poo, your character is no longer accepted in high end end game content, you have nothing special about your class anymore, no special boons to share and the kind of job that you can do it can easily be out done by other classes in every way (this is PVE BTW)

    I don't think you understand that for PvP players, necro is literally the source of this problem for multiple professions where the entire game revolves around how well necro performs because it's actually that powerful of a class.

    We understand fully. It's just your complaint isn't correct by asking for buffs to necro. The class is arguably the strongest or one of the strongest in the game in macro power based on how it counters things and how it needs to be played around. Its entire purpose is to maintain dominance through battlefield control and denial of power to enemies and converting that into their offense. Just none of these strengths apply in PvE because ANet has yet to make an encounter that's anything more than number-crunching some DPS and makes half their big bad boss encounters downright immune to most of the power necro brings.

    You're asking to change what necromancer is intended to do, rather than suggesting ways to make what it does work better in PvE. That's the issue. Do you think it would make sense for someone to request in the thief subsection that the class needs more invulnerability effects and reduced incoming damage so that it can be an effective tank/damage sponge? No. If people wanted to suggest ways for thief to tank, it'd be through aggro maintenance tools and ways to involve dodging through the incoming damage rather than necessarily depending on a healer or zero-tell stun which some bosses inflict. That's basically what you're asking for on necro right now, and it makes little sense.

    Nowhere in the class is maximum damage via conditions mentioned, and Epi spam was boring gameplay that a lot of necromancer players criticized because they wanted to actually play their class rather than simulate the terminal hacking part of Crucible of Eternity where people just type 3 2 1 and press F to advance.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Fun is subjective .. there is no way Anet can deliver directly to you what you ask because you have associated fun with balance when their isn't any correlation at all. Despite those nerfs, lots of people still have fun. It's a weak argument when people start linking balance to 'fun'. It's so meaningless and unmeasurable.

    Doesn't change what I said. Sounds like you choose the wrong class to play; if your criteria links 'balanced' to what is 'fun', better find a different class.

    would you find your main class that you have put thousands of hours into and thousands of gold and grinding to make look amazing, would you have fun with it if one balance patch they gutted them to be terrible, their damage numbers are poo, your character is no longer accepted in high end end game content, you have nothing special about your class anymore, no special boons to share and the kind of job that you can do it can easily be out done by other classes in every way (this is PVE BTW)

    Yes I would because I don't make choices for what class to play based on performance relative to other classes; it's a bad idea to do so because you have to expect that when the game changes, you might have to change class with it. You need to realign your expectations; Anet isn't going to change how they do things and align to whatever criteria you invent for class choice because you made an I QUIT thread. As I've already said once before, your statement here doesn't change what I've said; if you can't adapt to game changes, you simply shouldn't be playing MMOs in the first place. They all do this, it's typical and expected.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • dusanyu.4057dusanyu.4057 Member ✭✭✭

    Lave your toys in the pram! How do you know necro is fun again if you stopped playing?

  • Necromancer in PvE is fine. Have done raids, fracs, dungeons, and open world. Never struggled.

    Just find a guild, instead of doing it with PUGS. That isn't difficult.

    That said, I do wish they put more boons on enemies.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @annsi.4239 said:
    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    What are you talking about? Condi scourge is fine in PvE.

    It is fine, in open world. As for other PVE content like fractals and raids:

    • is not it same good as other cdps classes? I don't think so..
    • is not it same boons useful as some other classes? I don't think so..

    Please correct me if I'm wrong with proofs^

    I'm playing condi scourge and I'm happy with it, however I don't see point why I would be taken into group instead of many other classes.
    So yes, would be great to see some DPS parity with other condi classes.

    AoE

    Not needed on bosses.

    Boon Strip
    Boon Corrupt

    Not not needed on bosses

    Barrier from doing DPS

    Doesn't reliable remove pressure as you are using barrier skills to do dmg, and not to prevent dmg

    If you don't understand why those would be desired in T4 fractals, please go read the patch notes from earlier this week.

    Necro is fine in fractals, but let's be honest, fractals are pretty easy. And we want necro to be good in raids.

    Almost daily my LFG group has a Necro in it, about 50% power reaper and 50% condi scourge.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The developers know Defiance is the source of Necro's balance problems. They have known for more than six years and tried to artificially assign value to soft and hard CC by introducing break bars.

    If I has a customer complain that a design fix was not good enough and screwed up other systems, I would probably not be working, anymore.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Fun is subjective .. there is no way Anet can deliver directly to you what you ask because you have associated fun with balance when their isn't any correlation at all. Despite those nerfs, lots of people still have fun. It's a weak argument when people start linking balance to 'fun'. It's so meaningless and unmeasurable.

    Doesn't change what I said. Sounds like you choose the wrong class to play; if your criteria links 'balanced' to what is 'fun', better find a different class.

    would you find your main class that you have put thousands of hours into and thousands of gold and grinding to make look amazing, would you have fun with it if one balance patch they gutted them to be terrible, their damage numbers are poo, your character is no longer accepted in high end end game content, you have nothing special about your class anymore, no special boons to share and the kind of job that you can do it can easily be out done by other classes in every way (this is PVE BTW)

    Yes. I don't link my fun to balance, damage numbers, or whether or not PUGs accept me. Those aren't the things I see as special. I see unique flavor and playstyle as special. I don't see unique boons as special. If that were the case I would main Mesmer. If another profession can outdo me then I don't care. My fun isn't tied to trying to out due the folks around me. What I find fun is whether or not the profession feels unique. That's why I love playing Engineer, Revenant, and Elementalist. Guardian is probally the most consistently powerful profession I play. Even then, I played Dragonhunter all the time even when it wasn't all that good and was being outshined by Firebrand. Why? Because I love the flavor of Dragonhunter. Renegade is fun for me to play despite it being near useless at times. Holosmith is super strong and is carrying the rest of Engineer but I spend more time lately as Scrapper. Elementalist isn't doing so good right now. I still find Tempest and Weaver to be loads of fun. Fun is in the challenge of making them all work for me. I do end game content with my guildmates. That means I don't have to worry about elitist PUG attitudes about what I SHOULD be playing and instead get to focus on what I want to play.

    Tieing fun to balance, dps numbers, special boons, and out doing other professions in the game only works if you don't main any profession in the game. Those are the folks who have fun via balance and DPS numbers as those people happily move onto whatever profession is the strongest at the moment. They don't tie themselves to one profession. If you tie yourself to one profession then you will never have fun by the metrics you have outlined in this thread. And I do mean never. The game is never going to work in such a way that your idea of fun will always be true for Necromancer. You don't even accept the necessary changes that would make Necromancer fun by your metrics, i.e. you don't want Necromancer in PvE to play like it does in PvP despite the fact that that solution would fix all the problems you have. However, they are likely to never balance Necromancer in the fashion you feel it should be balanced in, i.e. dps numbers and special boons etc etc. Even something as small as joining a guild that values things other than dps number crunching for end game content would solve your problems.

    Well .... some of them.

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    The developers know Defiance is the source of Necro's balance problems. They have known for more than six years and tried to artificially assign value to soft and hard CC by introducing break bars.

    If I has a customer complain that a design fix was not good enough and screwed up other systems, I would probably not be working, anymore.

    Video games, and MMOs in particular are not the same kind of things as a normal job. There is only so much they can do to fix the situation without having to redo other segments of the game and that isn't exactly feasible. Part of what makes this not feasible is not everyone is unhappy here. There are Necromancer players who are happy with the state of Necromancer right now. So yes, they have customers complaining about issues that requires design fixes but they also have customers who are happy. This isn't a situation where 100% of their Necromancer players are unhappy. This is an issue where a segment of the Necromancer players are unhappy. Those unhappy players do not automatically override the desires of the happy ones. Thus changes to Necromancer has to be done in a fashion that doesn't upset the already happy customers. So while if you had a customer complain about a design fix that wasn't good enough would cost you your job your job isn't the same as their job and your circumstances are not the same as theirs.

    It's also worth noting, this is not a unique issue. This is an all too common problem in MMOs. No one is losing their job over an issue that plagues the genre as a whole.

  • ok im just gonna put this here for the people of "just play the class if you do enjoy it and not to tie balance to having fun" I cant play the content that I want to play as necro, I have fun with necro (more in the past when it was strong in PVE) but I cant play the content of End game raids, T4 challenge motes/100's etc basically any truly challenging and high reward end game content necro is not accepted in very often if at all and I don't want to feel like im weighing down groups because I want to play necro because then I just feel like kitten

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    We've heard that "I can't team with Necro" argument before. It's not worth rehashing. If your desires to play the game 'correctly' conflicts with your desire to play the game how it's intended (the way you want), that's something you have to resolve yourself. Anet can't fix that because the game evolves with playing how you want as a guiding principle. Either you align your expectations to that, play accordingly and enjoy yourself ... or stay angry.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @annsi.4239 said:
    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    What are you talking about? Condi scourge is fine in PvE.

    It is fine, in open world. As for other PVE content like fractals and raids:

    • is not it same good as other cdps classes? I don't think so..
    • is not it same boons useful as some other classes? I don't think so..

    Please correct me if I'm wrong with proofs^

    I'm playing condi scourge and I'm happy with it, however I don't see point why I would be taken into group instead of many other classes.
    So yes, would be great to see some DPS parity with other condi classes.

    AoE

    Not needed on bosses.

    Boon Strip
    Boon Corrupt

    Not not needed on bosses

    Barrier from doing DPS

    Doesn't reliable remove pressure as you are using barrier skills to do dmg, and not to prevent dmg

    If you don't understand why those would be desired in T4 fractals, please go read the patch notes from earlier this week.

    Necro is fine in fractals, but let's be honest, fractals are pretty easy. And we want necro to be good in raids.

    Almost daily my LFG group has a Necro in it, about 50% power reaper and 50% condi scourge.

    If you had read my last statement and actually read about the new instabilities and had experienced the new fractal, you would understand why everything you just said was wrong. But hey, I don't care who plays necro and who doesn't.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    ok im just gonna put this here for the people of "just play the class if you do enjoy it and not to tie balance to having fun" I cant play the content that I want to play as necro, I have fun with necro (more in the past when it was strong in PVE) but I cant play the content of End game raids, T4 challenge motes/100's etc basically any truly challenging and high reward end game content necro is not accepted in very often if at all and I don't want to feel like im weighing down groups because I want to play necro because then I just feel like kitten

    The "I can't play Necro in End Game content" has been debunked multiple times in multiple threads. It's as simple as joining a guild of like-minded individuals. Plenty of Necromancer players have fun with Necromancer right now in PvE content. And plenty of Necromancer players have reported doing end game content. Videos have been posted. Screenshots of groups have been posted. It is true that it is very hard to PUG as a Necromancer but it is not true that Necromancer is excluded in all ways from end game content.

    You are 100% in control of your fun. If you leave it up to ANet to do it for you I imagine you will be waiting a long time.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Quick fix for boon corruption in PvE:

    • When in break bar mode and there is no boon to corrupt, boon corruption proc a fear just like if there was stability to corrupt on the mob.
    • When the breakbar is broken and there is no boon to corrupt, boon corruption proc a bleed just like if there was vigor to corrupt on the mob.
  • jakt.9381jakt.9381 Member ✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    The thread is titled for PvE, but in WvW scourge rivals herald as top DPS , to the point about 30-50% of squads are scourges. Just think about that for a minute.

    But they arent running condi (only mention that bc thats what OP is talking about), and I wouldnt say that is because the class itself is good, but its bc the way the class relates to the current meta. Ranged AOE damage is king right now, and scourge is just the class that does it most effectively. If the meta was any different scourge would be terrible.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Everyone, please take care not over-generalize. The point I was making is not that Necromancer is under-powered, unplayable, or broken. The point is that balance is very difficult for Arenanet on Necromancer because the profession is so heavily designed around soft CC, which Defiance directly auto-counters like having an unremovable or corruptable 100% resistance up-time and infinite stacks of stability.

    This means making Necro good against PvE bosses also makes it wildly OP against everything else, especially WvW and PvP. The return of skill splits and skills/traits designed to bolster very specific content like raids are the only solutions.

    Think about how much grief and rebalance effort Arenanet may have dealt with just because of Necro's performance difference between game modes. Personally, I am amazed Necro is as good as it is and the two specializations seem directly targeted at Necro's glaring balance issues.

    Think about it: BM rework added AoE heals to a profession with almost no group support, Reaper added power-cleave to a profession that had none, and Scourge added barrier, which does not compete with healing from other professions, and more boon corruption to counter the higher boon spam rates. These changes were not random accidents.

    However, much of Necromancer's core skills and traits are still deeply entwined with soft CC so raid performance versus PvP performance will continue to be a hot topic of discussion.

  • Xxnecroxx.4039Xxnecroxx.4039 Member ✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Quick fix for boon corruption in PvE:

    • When in break bar mode and there is no boon to corrupt, boon corruption proc a fear just like if there was stability to corrupt on the mob.
    • When the breakbar is broken and there is no boon to corrupt, boon corruption proc a bleed just like if there was vigor to corrupt on the mob.

    now this alone I don't think would fix necro BUT it would definitely go a LONG WAY for it and I really like this idea

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Everyone, please take care not over-generalize. The point I was making is not that Necromancer is under-powered, unplayable, or broken. The point is that balance is very difficult for Arenanet on Necromancer because the profession is so heavily designed around soft CC, which Defiance directly auto-counters like having an unremovable or corruptable 100% resistance up-time and infinite stacks of stability.

    This means making Necro good against PvE bosses also makes it wildly OP against everything else, especially WvW and PvP. The return of skill splits and skills/traits designed to bolster very specific content like raids are the only solutions.

    Think about how much grief and rebalance effort Arenanet may have dealt with just because of Necro's performance difference between game modes. Personally, I am amazed Necro is as good as it is and the two specializations seem directly targeted at Necro's glaring balance issues.

    Think about it: BM rework added AoE heals to a profession with almost no group support, Reaper added power-cleave to a profession that had none, and Scourge added barrier, which does not compete with healing from other professions, and more boon corruption to counter the higher boon spam rates. These changes were not random accidents.

    However, much of Necromancer's core skills and traits are still deeply entwined with soft CC so raid performance versus PvP performance will continue to be a hot topic of discussion.

    Skill splits aren't a solution. I'm not sure why you would say the return of them anyway since they never left and they still use them. As I have suggested and as @Dadnir.5038 suggested the fix needs to be about how bosses and mobs are constructed. The Necromancer toolkit already works. The problem is that end game content doesn't replicate PvP/WvW content. Thus all the tools that make Necromancer work in competitive modes are rendered moot in an environment in which bosses themselves don't replicate player play. If bosses applied more boons or if boon corrupts still applied an effect even when the boon has been removed (as @Dadnir.5038 suggested) Necromancer would see a boost in viability. Skill splits have a tendency to still have bleed over into other modes of play.

    Necromancer doesn't need buffs or skill splits. It needs the end game content to change so that the tools they gave Necromancer actually work as they are intended.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ^^ I have to disagree that end game content NEEDS to change to accommodate tools Necros have to make them feel more welcome in the specific scenario of PUG tryhard grouping. If they changed content so encounters were more impacted by the necro toolset, it would still not guarantee a solution to the problem that these players are encountering. For example, if a boss WAS more susceptible to soft breaking CC/boon corruption, that doesn't immediately lead a (ignorant) PUG team looking for optimal performance to take a Necro; we can't predict the meta and Necros aren't the only class with these tools.

    In otherwords, I'm against idea that Anet would 'hard-code' the need for specific tools into a raid or a boss to try to get more diversity in team comps. If anything, it just makes the need for the optimal composition even tighter than it was before because you have these layers of 'need this' and 'need that too' and 'oh don't forget we need ....'

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    ^^ I have to disagree that end game content NEEDS to change to accommodate tools Necros have to make them feel more welcome in the specific scenario of PUG tryhard grouping. If they changed content so encounters were more impacted by the necro toolset, it would still not guarantee a solution to the problem that these players are encountering. For example, if a boss WAS more susceptible to soft breaking CC/boon corruption, that doesn't immediately lead a (ignorant) PUG team looking for optimal performance to take a Necro; we can't predict the meta and Necros aren't the only class with these tools.

    In otherwords, I'm against idea that Anet would 'hard-code' the need for specific tools into a raid or a boss to try to get more diversity in team comps. If anything, it just makes the need for the optimal composition even tighter than it was before because you have these layers of 'need this' and 'need that too' and 'oh don't forget we need ....'

    It wouldn't be the first time that ANet modified PvE to accomodate the necromancer's tools, though. Reducing the reliance on fire fields to stack might was a way to give room to the necromancer that tend to have unwelcome fields and lack practicable blast finisher. Reducing the ability to skip trash was also a move that helped the necromancer in PvE. Fractal instabilities are almost tailormades to make people think: "Ah yes! A necro would be handy there"...

    I don't see what would be wrong in allowing boon corruption to act like a CC on a break bar since boon corruption is the best CC possible against characters that rely on stability. I don't see how it would be bad to allow boon corruption to have also an effect on overbuffed boss that don't need to rely on boons to be sturdy.

    The necromancer's dps potential in PvE is "low" compared to other profession, nobody can deny it. Nobody even want to deny it. The current necromancer don't have boon corruption on AA so the impact of boon corruption on an overbuffed boss that don't need to rely on boon wouldn't even be that great and probably still wouldn't push the necromancer's dps potential to the level of other professions.

    The reality is that the suggestion isn't about creating a "NEED", but creating some breathing for boon corruption. With or without boon corruption, the breakbar already need to be broken via CC. With or without boon corruption, when the breakbar is broken you need to deal damage to the boss. Nothing new is really added that could bother other profession, just a different interaction between boon corruption and the "defiance/breakbar" system so that an important necromancer tool in it's dps rotation isn't reindered totally useless by a PvE mechanism.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2019

    Changing content in a raid, for example, to better suit a Necro is not that easy. Some instanced PvE have been designed with add's, AoE and soft CC in mind but Necro does not have exclusive rights over soft CC, boon removal or AoE so the raid may just as easily favor other professions.

    That is why I suspect PvE-PvP splits are the most precise, least complicated ways to balance between game modes.

    Arenanet tried splitting years ago. Then, unspilt for simplicity but are now back to splitting, again.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    ^^ I have to disagree that end game content NEEDS to change to accommodate tools Necros have to make them feel more welcome in the specific scenario of PUG tryhard grouping. If they changed content so encounters were more impacted by the necro toolset, it would still not guarantee a solution to the problem that these players are encountering. For example, if a boss WAS more susceptible to soft breaking CC/boon corruption, that doesn't immediately lead a (ignorant) PUG team looking for optimal performance to take a Necro; we can't predict the meta and Necros aren't the only class with these tools.

    In otherwords, I'm against idea that Anet would 'hard-code' the need for specific tools into a raid or a boss to try to get more diversity in team comps. If anything, it just makes the need for the optimal composition even tighter than it was before because you have these layers of 'need this' and 'need that too' and 'oh don't forget we need ....'

    No, I'm still going to say they need to do it. At the end of the day, everyone needs to be viable on some level. There is no denying that Necromancer does have some viability issues. That's what lead to the stigma. They aren't so bad that they CAN'T do the content. However, if they were made slightly more viable it could shift things in their favor some. And sure, it may be the case that PUGs may not take them. However, if the long term end game content made it clear that a Necromancer would be useful in these situations it could slowly shift the PUG attitude. These changes will not fix things over night. Necromancer would still have a rough few year(s) as the PUG clique is brought around to the idea that yes they need a Necromancer. However, just because the PUG community won't swiftly come around to using Necromancers doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

    This fix is better than the call for buffs.

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Changing content in a raid, for example, to better suit a Necro is not that easy. Some instanced PvE have been designed with add's, AoE and soft CC in mind but Necro does not have exclusive rights over soft CC, boon removal or AoE so the raid may just as easily favor other professions.

    That is why I suspect PvE-PvP splits are the most precise, least complicated ways to balance between game modes.

    Arenanet tried splitting years ago. Then, unspilt for simplicity but are now back to splitting, again.

    They have been trying skill splits for some time now and they don't work. The suggestion that they need to do more skill splits ignores the fact that they are currently doing skill splits and it isn't producing the desired effect. Aside from straight up buffs, the only other option is to change the game environment itself. We already know under what conditions Necromancer actually performs well. We just need to replicate those conditions in PvE end game content.

    Skill splits simply do not work. There is still too much bleed over between game modes when they do skill splits.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    Idk, I out-dps most pugs on my power reaper.. Im pretty happy.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    So long as it has access to so much AoE coverage and boon denial with such high inbuilt sustain it will never lead in DPS. Nor should it. These things don't matter in PvE because ANet does not make them matter in PvE. But necromancer is responsible for and continues to have the tightest strangehold on the meta in the PvP modes of all classes.

    Scourge in particular was a mistake because it exacerbated existing problems with necro being entirely what causes metas to change and generally dominant in the PvP formats, while feeling underwhelming in PvE because of how much self-sustain and how much area control they gave it.

    Not to mention that if you're not having fun just because you're not the best for PvE of all things, you should do some evaluation. Necro is one of the most diverse classes due to its specs covering vastly different playstyles, so I highly doubt it's a lack of enjoyment from playstyle.

    a lot of its POTENTIAL DAMAGE locked behind boon corruption, now boon corrupt is good in PVP and zerging WvW, PVE? it is HEAVILY INCONSISTANT AT BEST... PVE content that does have boons either don't re-apply them in regular intervals to keep getting the value and thus it is just 1 small burst of extra damage at the start

    This sounds to me like it's a good portion of the problem, then. See, what ANet has failed to do is actually make any PvE encounter even closely resemble PvP such that things like weakness and cripple are worthless to be spewing because bosses don't even get affected by them, and because bosses don't re-apply their boons.

    They could also just as easily give bosses massive applications of vigor and regeneration even if the bosses don't necessarily use these mechanics just to help improve DPS via necro corruption rather than comps opting for boon stripping. And then they could buff the corruption table for things like bleeding/poison for PvE. That's not a necro problem so much as a boss behavior problem. The PvE issues necro has have literally nothing to do with any innate weakness of the class at this point.

    And given the fact that condi scourge is objectively so high on the damage charts as of right now which a ton of people are posting... I don't understand why you'd proclaim it's useless and not fun.

    EPI WAS NOT OP THEN

    Yes it kinda was. 5 necros was meta in fractals for a while and it was so OP that even me as someone who hasn't played PvE in any capacity, including living story since early season 3 heard about it. And it was not skilled and trivialized the entire game. Epi was boring AF to use. Press a button and get obscene damage while you sit there basically doing nothing else. That's not what GW2 is about.

    Want Damage Warriors. period or Ele's
    Want Support? Druid
    Want Condi Damage? Again Warrior, or Mesmer, or even Rev

    Necro excels only at AOE boon corrupt and that is VERY situational and those situations are only PVP and WvW and not even in every situation I would be fine for them to nerf the AOE boon corrupt and give Necro more HARD condis of bleed, torment, etc that way you remove potency of them in WvW and PvP and give them back strength in PVE, just scepter auto attack 3rd in the AA chain is enough condi corrupt for PVE most of the time you HARDLY IF EVER need more then that

    If necro excels at any of those categories it becomes the best class period, because then there's no identity for the other classes to fulfill because it has such high baseline potential in all three without needing build investment thanks to shroud's innate defenses and the utility scourge brings.

    It's not meant to be an optimal condition damage dealer, either. It's meant to utilize conditions to control fights, like through weakness to negate incoming damage and fear and cripple to lock down and kite enemies. Again, this is a problem with the encounters in "high end" PvE; they're all extremely narrow-scoped, and to be honest, as soon as necro advances in something over another class, someone else gets thrown out of the meta. Even if everyone did exactly the same damage, people would kick because one class would be more reliable in dealing its damage at more levels of skill or have slightly higher self-sustain.

    Necro can't be balanced with the trinity system in mind because GW2 as a whole wasn't ever intended to have the trinity system and "high end" PvE in mind from a class perspective. Adjusting the classes will not fix PvE because the issues in PvE are bigger than numbers tweaks to professions.

    And if you nerf necro's corruption ability, then many professions also need to be nerfed in their boon applications, especially Firebrand. I agree with this, but it's impossible to do in a fair way because of Concentration and how overpowered boons are. So then ANet needs to nerf a lot of boons and baseline damage coefficients and condition application because without nerfs to direct power everyone will just one-shot one another once boons are nerfed out of the meta. And then necro ends up needing to get nerfed because it outdamages everything, can tank super well thanks to its high baseline levels of sustain, and can shut down the limited number of resistance floating around. So then you're back at square 1 because something else will out-DPS it.

    While I'd love to see the above happen because the PvP modes aren't that fun anymore when everyone has massively-inflated stats and necros thus basically control the game, anything short of a full-on game-wide rework of all professions breaks virtually everything.

    Much easier to make some better encounters that the necro is good into, and maybe buff its corruption in PvE-only so it means even a small fraction of what it does in the PvP modes.

    Because if it mattered as much as it does in the PvP modes, we'd see most groups probably running 2 FB 8 scourge.

    your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt not condi applying that is why Epi was needed to be somewhat OP so that you could spread at least to a degree that single target damage to multiple enemies or Necro would need to have THE BEST single target damage amongst all classes to balance out their poor AoE damage when you compare say a warrior able to do their high power damage without any build up to multiple mobs, and you keep saying necro has high sustain, it does not have that much sustain because it does not give that many boons to itself or allies, the only REALLY notable thing is death shroud which that can EASILY be burned out of quit quickly that is the only thing truly "sustain" about necros unless you speck into low damage but high sustain with the trait that turns 10% of condi damage into heals (can't think of the name off the top of my head" and I NEVER SAID i wanted necro TO BE THE BE ALL END ALL DAMAGE and it should out damage every class, no i want it to be on par if not SLIGHTLY BETTER due to its long ramp up time to get its damage going and that unless it is kept up upon that damage will be lost unlike power builds. again that is where Epi was great because it offered a damage boost for co-ordination and only on certain encounters where there was adds to bounce them to the boss. to bring 2 necros or more and using that co-ordination should be rewarded so really in PVE no EPI was not OP because it was severly needed since necro has no good AoE condition application other then Epi but now Epi is pretty much near worthless and your part about making End game PVE feel more like PVP that would be bad because people playing PVE want to play PVE they don't want to play PVE but feel like they are playing PVP or else they would just play PVP

    In my opinion you could help alleviate the problem if necros were overhauled to be all defensive in shroud and all offensive outside shroud, that way you lose all you are forced to lose all sustain while dpsing and you lose all dps while sustaining. If it was overhauled that all abilities in reaper were made instead of being offensive, they were defensive, such as abilities to cc and use shield and stuff, you could have higher dps, because you could blow them up fairly easy if they are dpsing and not messing around, and if the cost is made to fit the defensive tools, necros would have to think on their feet of do i want to use aegis on 1 etc or not?

    The problem is, that a lot of people would be fairly unhappy with these changes, at least some would, but necro does need overhauls badly.

    If you look at the loss of sustain, necros didnt need to lose even more sustain for reaper. It is already too easy to kill a reaper outside reaper shroud with the duration, and they got further nerfs in sustain and got a easy arrow that says kill me outside shroud in the form of soul barbs.

    Necro needs either this, or to have sustain built into its weapons, because if its going to be so glassy, it better hit as hard as other glassy builds.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

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