What if we could negotiate with elder dragons? [Slight spoilers of most recent episode] — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What if we could negotiate with elder dragons? [Slight spoilers of most recent episode]

Knuckle Joe.7408Knuckle Joe.7408 Member ✭✭✭
edited January 11, 2019 in Lore

After the revelation of Kralkatorrik's greatest fear in the last living world episode, I couldn't help to think about it. From the wikia:

Kralkatorrik revealed its greatest fear to its scion in private:
it had foreseen a potential future of a world without strife between dragons and other races and without Kralkatorrik itself.

That's a really relatable fear that he has, close to what us humans could feel: Anyone would feel bad if they knew the world would go on and be better without us, becoming forgotten. Now, we've seen at least 2 elder dragons that have what appears to be 5-races level of intellect: Mordremoth, who we spoke with in the final battle, and now this revelation that Kralkatorrik has a really complex fear. Most likely the rest of the elder dragons do too, only we aren't able to communicate with them? Sort of a language barrier that needs to be overcome just like Aurene and Caithe did.

Is Kralkatorrik the only elder dragon that is extremely evil and would refuse to negotiate? In his vision, it saw a world without strife between dragons and other races, meaning in that reality there were dragons (presumably elders and their servants like Tequatl and Shatterer?) living in harmony.

Do you think that, from the very beginning when we fought Zhaitan, we could've isntead tried to negotiate with him and later Mordremoth, and spared so much death and destruction? Could we just like, communicate with Kralkatorrik and just say: "Look, we know you're afraid of a world without you, can we just be at peace with one one another?" I guess we would have to find a way to live together and figure out how to have magic for both the world and the elder dragons to consume.

Comments

  • If it makes it easier: Jormag isn't the one corrupting unwilling recruits but the Sons of Svanir. Jormag might be very willing to accept our terms and help kill his worshippers for their atrocities especially since Balthazar wounded him with Primordius's Magic.

    Primordius on the other hand is not so easy. His minions destroy without any sign of major intelligence. Jormag of course might be very willing to help kill the guy and let the hero with the weapon Vlast mentioned claim his power.

    Mordremoth was a megalomaniac who saw himself as the world so negotiating with him is out of the question. Zhaitan could have been negotiated with yet we don't know enough about him to make the proper call.

    Ultimately we might befriend Jormag and the Deep Sea Dragon alongside other lesser Dragons. Primordius is either too mindless or too omnicidal to be negotiated with, Mordremoth was too megalomaniacal to accept our terms and Kralkatorrik is too obsessed with his prophecy to negotiate.

  • @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:
    If it makes it easier: Jormag isn't the one corrupting unwilling recruits but the Sons of Svanir. Jormag might be very willing to accept our terms and help kill his worshippers for their atrocities especially since Balthazar wounded him with Primordius's Magic.

    Primordius on the other hand is not so easy. His minions destroy without any sign of major intelligence. Jormag of course might be very willing to help kill the guy and let the hero with the weapon Vlast mentioned claim his power.

    Mordremoth was a megalomaniac who saw himself as the world so negotiating with him is out of the question. Zhaitan could have been negotiated with yet we don't know enough about him to make the proper call.

    Ultimately we might befriend Jormag and the Deep Sea Dragon alongside other lesser Dragons. Primordius is either too mindless or too omnicidal to be negotiated with, Mordremoth was too megalomaniacal to accept our terms and Kralkatorrik is too obsessed with his prophecy to negotiate.

    I interpreted Primordus as uncaring, rather than unintelligent. Like Vlast, he became apathetic as far as the other races are concerned. Unlike Vlast, he lived long enough to become an elder dragon.
    He doesn't care about fancy minions, he just needs drones for his magic drilling operation. He also doesn't seem to care about the lesser races, their forms are useful minion templates, but rock is easier to acqire. He'd probably be surprised the lesser races call his drones "Destroyers", but that would require too much attention. His movement is an indicator. Primordus was likely below the shiverpeaks, until that area was cleared of excess magic. Then he moved to the fire Island chain, since magic in that area was abundant. The fire island chain is also pretty much depopulated wasteland, but this dragon doesn't seem to care about company. What a lonely existence.
    He might care about other dragons, but that's pretty much it. Maybe he wants to befriend Jormag? Wouldn't that be awkward.
    Ultimately we can't be sure of his motives unless we create a telepathic link to talk with him.

    I guess the elder dragons had to figure out their position in this world on their own. They grew big, massive, and everything else became tiny and frail. They may even know, that they are important to the world, but their explanation for this is necessarily focused on what they know best: Themselves. Zhaitan may have genuinely thought he devoured the gods at some point. Mordremoth thought he and the world are one and the same, Primordus may regard the world as his clay to shape, Jormag could think of himself as the top of the foodchain, Steve Bubbles may have developed his own kind of logic, that can drive others to madness. Only Kralkatorrik had a vision of a world without him. He likely couldn't care less about the other races uniting, but as far as he can remember he's been on this world and cannot imagine anything else.

    I suspect a necromancer could fear Kralkatorrik, provided he got access to his mind.

  • Sir Alric.5078Sir Alric.5078 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem is that to Elder Dragons anyone but themselves and their peers is nothing more than an insect. Would a human bother negotiating with ants? Of course not. It's the same thing for them. If we could ever even attempt to negotiate with Elder Dragons, it would have to be after we have beaten them next to death to force them to take us seriously.

  • The Elder Dragons from the beginning of the game were entities you cannot negotiate with. The way they were defined by the Anet lore team (Ancient beings / Forces of the Nature etc) and the fact they acted only for themselves (totally ignoring the effects for the other living beings) made a negotiation (what I say - even communication) impossible.

    But now, we have a change of this image. Two Elder Dragons are dead - killed by the insignificant ants ignored before. This makes at least one of the Dragons (Kralky) to think at the future. In my opinion, in this moment of the story, we can try to communicate with Kralky. He already acknowledged the fact that the world contains Elder Dragons and other beings strong enough to react if threatened.

    Because the Elder Dragons are described as sentient intelligent beings. They did not communicate with us in the past because they had no reason for this. Now we can kill them. This is a reason strong enough.

  • From the get go, however, Jormag has been giving promises of power to norn. He has been in communication, via telepathy, first through Drakkar and other champions, but it seems that eventually he began communication directly.

    Mordremoth, similarly, telepathically communicated directly with Scarlet right off the bat, and during Heart of Thorns, communicated with us.

    We hadn't gotten communication from Zhaitan, Primordus, or Kralkatorrik, but there is reason to believe this could be incapability rather than unwillingness. And I don't mean "not smart enough" but rather a language barrier.

    As I noted, Jormag and Mordremoth communicated through telepathy. Glint is described as the same:

    She was...brilliant, in all meanings of the word. Beautiful. Enormous, yet gentle. When she spoke, it was in your head, accompanied by the sound of crystalline wind chimes in harmonious tones. She was...
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Return_to_Camp_Resolve#Optional_Dialogue

    So we have three for three dragons that communicate doing so via telepathy. Aurene in this episode does the same with Caithe, but needs to establish a connection - which causes "corruption" - to do so. Drakkar communicating with Svanir (and later Sons of Svanir) was the same, first causing corruption to communicate. Mordremoth communicated telepathically with his domain of Mind, something other Elder Dragons and their champions lack, and through that domain of Mind, through the Dream to all sylvari.

    In other words, if we want to negotiate with Elder Dragons, we must establish a telepathic communication with them.

    But then there's something else:

    Ogden Stonehealer: Glint had the power to communicate with her mind. She learned language from humans this way.
    Ogden Stonehealer: According to her, other dragons speak and think in something I hesitate to call a language. But not Glint.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana

    It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scarlet_Briar's_Journal

    Glint and Mordremoth didn't begin communication with words. They began with something Ogden "hesitates to call a language". A method Scarlet describes as "images". Which, incidentally, is how Aurene communicates before this episode - visions, images.

    So even if we do get a telepathic link to the Elder Dragons for communication, there's still that language barrier of them needing to want to learn our language. Mordremoth wanted to so he could turn the sylvari; Glint wanted to so she could communicate with mortals. Jormag wanted to, because he wants to convert willing subjects. But the rest? Why would they want to?

    All in all, I think that if any Elder Dragon can be negotiated with, it'd be Jormag. I do think Zhaitan, ironically enough, might have been up for bargaining too, and I say this because of my reasons here, but we knocked him off the list first and lost that chance.

    But Jormag's asleep, so we don't even need to bother communication unless he and/or Primordus rises again soon(tm).

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019

    Interseting...

    As for Kralk, and my theory of what is to come, It would certainly be easier to negotiate, if they happen to absorb some of the knowledge and desire to communicate, even if unwillingly.
    With what happened and all, I think the scion and champion gave him a lot of new things to chew on.

    If Kralk ended that fight with something more inside of him, then, maybe he can learn to overcome his fear of his vision, maybe he can learn the language of mere mortals, maybe he can learn about having bonds with others... maybe, then, he will eventually come to talk to the commander because he will want to try the things he learned about.

  • TheOrlyFactor.8341TheOrlyFactor.8341 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019

    Only if we get to negotiate like this:

    Asura fanatic.
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