Returning Thief: What's the state of P/P thief?

I've been away since just before POF dropped. I've always played P/P thief no matter how bad it was. What's it's current state? Does it work with DE specs?

DE does not prevent you from using p/p. it is mostly inferior to other options. basically the only place i would use it is exploring core tyria as it still has its low ini cost in PvE and it feels better in frontloaded damage compared to rifle. for everything else rifle is basically the better p/p.

Since last changes wherein INI costs increased I rarely see the build in WvW. Outside unload there no real damage and given you only have a couple of these available before INI exhaustion and the set offers little other utility that does not just delay the inevitable death , there better choices.

so all the work i've done was for nothing. great to have paired legendary pistols, but no point. why did i come back to the game? nothing ever changes for P/P

At least it isn't as bad as power D/D.

P/P hasn't really changed much since before PoF. Deadeye P/P was broken initially because it could unload an upwards of ten consecutive time because they buffed Unload massively, and so they nerfed it slightly. It still gives might and refunds some initiative. It's just best to Unload with a bit more thought than what was needed when the skill only cost 2 init after the refund and Trickery Deadeye had an effective init pool of 22. If you've been around since before they buffed Unload, P/P isn't much worse than it's always been.

The real hits to P/P came from powecreep on the other elite specs. But this is universal to pretty much thief in general.

In open PvE at least, DE p/p is vastly superior to any other p/p spec. You can still unload for massive damage and with the way the mark resets, its with perma quickness. I run my p/p as zerker with crit healing, so one recover like 30% hp each unload. Not very forgiving against bosses though, lol.

Whether its competetive against other classes is a whole other point.

@Dawdler.8521 said:In open PvE at least, DE p/p is vastly superior to any other p/p spec. You can still unload for massive damage and with the way the mark resets, its with perma quickness. I run my p/p as zerker with crit healing, so one recover like 30% hp each unload. Not very forgiving against bosses though, lol.

Whether its competetive against other classes is a whole other point.

So maybe I have a lil' hope? Got a build I can see?

For PvE, If you want to melt fodder while keeping a steady-pace towards your objective in any open-world map, DE Unload is great. Usually melts any fodder enemy in one Unload with full zerkers and BQBK. Only problem is it takes only 6-7 bullets to melt fodder, so you don't get the ini-refund, but if you grab trickery you get two ini back just for marking so, not a big deal.

Garbage in PvP and WvW. P/P only has Unload going for it, and nothing else. Headshot and Blackpowder are great utilities dont get me wrong, but you don't get much use out of either on DE. Better on DrD since you can black-powder stealth with vault and impact with headshot. I mean, you can usually down necro-stragglers making it back to thier zerg in WvW after they've already died, but quite frankly, they die to anything and P/P is nothing special.

@Black Frog.9274 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:In open PvE at least, DE p/p is vastly superior to any other p/p spec. You can still unload for massive damage and with the way the mark resets, its with perma quickness. I run my p/p as zerker with crit healing, so one recover like 30% hp each unload. Not very forgiving against bosses though, lol.

Whether its competetive against other classes is a whole other point.

Its a gimmicky build for sure but its very effective at killing single targets fast. Its the most fun open world PvE character I run with. Having dual Hope do help though.

The state of p/p is the same as before. Spam #3 as most of the other skills on the set matter not.

@Black Frog.9274 said:I've been away since just before POF dropped. I've always played P/P thief no matter how bad it was. What's it's current state? Does it work with DE specs?

DE definitely makes P/P better, but it's still not meta and probably never will be. It's also still a single target only weapon set, despite cries from the community to bring Ricochet back.

If you were fine with how P/P was before, you'll love it now.

@Black Frog.9274 said:I've been away since just before POF dropped. I've always played P/P thief no matter how bad it was. What's it's current state? Does it work with DE specs?

DE P/P works with M7 really well. You can stack Malice really fast with Unload. I play hybrid with my P/P so I spice up my Unload with a dash of Poison. You can cycle through easy to kill mobs by marking them before they die to continuously proc Renewing Gaze and Payback. This insures that you have Venom available when you need it. All you need is 3 trash mob and your Venom is fully recharged in a few seconds. With hybrid, your Malicious Sneak Attack actually deals more damage now that it also applies Torment. I wouldn't recommend bringing this in any structured content since there are other builds better than this, albeit it's a fun build.

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:The state of p/p is the same as before. Spam #3 as most of the other skills on the set matter not.

Eh. Depending on when OP last played, Body Shot has a 50% longer duration than it used to, and if successful, guarantees a minimum of a full Unload cast. Spammable 1.5s immob is pretty strong when used well - I mean, people still take Panic Strike for the same thing, basically.

P/P is objectively a ton stronger than it used to be. I don't think it's strong by any relative means just from PoF powercreep, though.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:The state of p/p is the same as before. Spam #3 as most of the other skills on the set matter not.

the point is, its a pointless gimmick build that can only really 1 try luck. wait?? are we talking about wvw/spvp or open world pve ?

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:The state of p/p is the same as before. Spam #3 as most of the other skills on the set matter not.

Part of the problem is that the increased overall INI costs to unload made unload spam even more prevalent in the set. Prior to changes you could afford to use a #5 or number 2 or interrupt with headshot as you tended to have INI available to do so. By increasing INI on unload these other skills can not be used as readily. If I use #2 now plus an unload you do not have enough INI for a second unload. You just as well off chaining two unloads together and if enemy manages to dodge half of one you still put out more damage.

Body shot at 4 ini has a very slow projectile speed which can very often just be sidestepped. It easier to dodge or miss with that shot then it is to dodge an unload. Body shot can work in a condition build simply because you can join panic strike to Potent poison and output damage that way.

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:The state of p/p is the same as before. Spam #3 as most of the other skills on the set matter not.

Why would I ever care to talk about a skill being good in the context of PvE? Mobs do not care and don't dodge...Body Shot has the same immob duration as Panic Strike. Panic Strike is very strong for dodge denial which enables more reliable follow-through. It's not AS good as passive immob, but it's not completely useless like some suggest. Headshot is known as a good skill, and the same is said for BP on something like Bound Daredevil.

P/P's only major flaws are spammable projectile denial and a weak AA that creates a high dependence on Unload. The former is the result of powercreep, which is what I said originally. Otherwise, the kit is relatively well-designed.

@babazhook.6805 said:@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:The state of p/p is the same as before. Spam #3 as most of the other skills on the set matter not.

I guess that depends heavily on perception.

The refunding of initiative on Unload is a fairly new development that was only around for a few months before PoF. Otherwise for the rest of the history of the game it's costed more and dealt less damage.

Depending on when the OP is referencing the bulk of their play time and how soon they quit before PoF, this could be seen as a positive or negative.

I guess that depends heavily on perception.

The refunding of initiative on Unload is a fairly new development that was only around for a few months before PoF. Otherwise for the rest of the history of the game it's costed more and dealt less damage.

Depending on when the OP is referencing the bulk of their play time and how soon they quit before PoF, this could be seen as a positive or negative

Prior to POF very few even used p/p as a set save for the time Ricochet was in on it. As currently designed there few things p/p offers that one can not get off Rifle. Yeah you can trait up for headshot and damage via PI but again you generally better off with an unload. The problem with ANY thief weapon is the nature of INI. In this way it very much like comparing class to class as in Why play class XXX when classs YYY can do all the same things and better.

P/P might be "well designed" from your perspective but if we are locked to INI for damage and the main goal of any encounter is pumping out damage faster then your opponent can then no matter the nature of those other skills , unless they offer MUCH more , people will tend to remain on #3. Why a d/p or a p/d set works well is there way more reasons to use the full suite of weapon skills within those sets. A major factor here is that in d/p and in p/d condition the #1 attack is still potent enough to use when out of INI. This just not the case in p/p power where stealth hard to obtain and the singular attack is not able to churn out a lot of damage.

When one compares Rifle to p/p , If I do burn off ini using rifle 4 or 2 or 3 , I still have a very dangerous INI free attack on #1.

P/P got buffed recently. Cripple is 100% now with trait. It's good vs melee classes as usual and is now better at stopping a target from kiting or running away.

A state of p/p thief is as follows.DeseasedDo not try to reviveCause of death :Who cares it was terrible build anyway

One thing hasn't changed since I last played: Babazhook and Deceiver duking it out over thief specs.

I stopped playing last within a month or so of PoF dropping. I played first within 3 months of GW2 launch. P/P has always been the red-headed step child of GW2. Ricochet was the bomb but at the time, P/P didn't have much going for it. Seems like it still doesn't have much going for it. In WvW, it made a pretty good +1 spec. People didn't expect it much and it put a lot of pressure on anyone sticking around to fight it out. God help anyone below 50% health who fell into my range. Still, not much to write home about.

@"Black Frog.9274" said:I've been away since just before POF dropped. I've always played P/P thief no matter how bad it was. What's it's current state? Does it work with DE specs?

Decided to try playing P/P and soloq'd to T3 Gold. I had just come back from a few weeks break so I wasn't in top form. I was on a winning streak and still learning so I feel like I could have easily gotten to Plat if I wanted to. I prefer messing around with random builds and don't actually care about my rank which is why I didn't stick with it.

Here's the build I made: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqaVn8lCFmiFOBmOBkmildCbLAkAaTeThowVYeBGBvgA-jpxHQBXrMAAOEAI8EAQwHAgyOCAaY/BA

Tips:

• 2 then 3 to hit your burst. Or just 3 when you feel like you can get away with it
• Focus on being defensive since you will be targeted a lot
• It's okay to just run around stalemating someone that won't stop chasing you. They'll never kill you and it's one person doing nothing to another person doing nothing when this happens. A bit boring though

Unload got nerfed a little too far, it's still a good burst, but too expensive for what it is. I'm not suggesting that it should go back to 5/2 ini, but at 6/1 it needs something else to justify the cost. Maybe reduce the cast time to solidify its role as a burst skill, instead of being used as high sustain dmg like before the nerf.

Other than that, the AA could really use a little more oomph. Maybe add a second stack of bleed and raise the power modifier to something like 0.65. Because right now, outside of Unload, p/p can't give out any pressure whatsoever. Most builds can just shrug off the AA and focus on dodging your Unload.

Overall p/p has all the potential to be a good kiting build, which would be a nice variation of flavor to playing thief. But right now its performance is a bit lower than where it needs to be.

@killy.3278 said:Unload got nerfed a little too far, it's still a good burst, but too expensive for what it is. I'm not suggesting that it should go back to 5/2 ini, but at 6/1 it needs something else to justify the cost. Maybe reduce the cast time to solidify its role as a burst skill, instead of being used as high sustain dmg like before the nerf.

Other than that, the AA could really use a little more oomph. Maybe add a second stack of bleed and raise the power modifier to something like 0.65. Because right now, outside of Unload, p/p can't give out any pressure whatsoever. Most builds can just shrug off the AA and focus on dodging your Unload.

Overall p/p has all the potential to be a good kiting build, which would be a nice variation of flavor to playing thief. But right now its performance is a bit lower than where it needs to be.

It fires at a fast rate and does a lot of damage if you have fury and 25 stacks of might.

Am I missing something? Unload still appears to be 5/2 initiative. Maybe my traits affect it? Still getting used to things again, so maybe I'm not looking at the right numbers.

5/2 is in PvE. 6/1 in PvP. Different balance in different modes. They change stats but they perform the same move across modes.