The only thing weaver is good for...

... is following a fixed rotation as staff berserker. There is simply no other use to it. While base elementalist was considered a more complex class having 4 attunements, weaver has 16 (!) of them. Now even if we could hop in and out of these 16 attunements whenever we wanted, it would still be an insane amount of skills and rotations to memorize. But it becomes even worse because the attunements are linked to each other with a weird mechanic that flows like a river of bricks. Whenever I play weaver, I feel like I'm forced onto rails, taking away any reactive gameplay and making me memorize a fixed rotation. It takes away the entire fun of the elementalist class. It's plain awful.

This is not new. The feedback after the beta weekend by the elementalist community was overwhelmingly negative. The community came together and made very good suggestions on how to fix the broken weaver mechanic. But Arenanet decided to entirely ignore our feedback. They probably don't even know themselves how to play it which explains the joke that is called unravel. We trait for an "elite" spec and then just to go back to the normal elementalist attunement mechanic we even have to sacrifice a utility slot? Are you kidding me?! They probably thought "the community will somehow figure out what to do". Well, the community will not. The way it is now, weaver kills the elementalist experience instead of enhancing it.

And even if the miracle came true and after hours and hours of learning how to make this broken mechanic work: Is there any reward for it? Even when I try optimized and practiced rotations on s/d in pvp, I hit like a wet noodle and just get steamrolled.

Why would a tennis player chop off his right arm and play with the left one just so he could try a new racket? Why would we put hours into learning a new mechanic that isn't fun to play in the first place? That doesn't benefit us with any rewards compared to, let's say, spellbreaker? A spellbreaker player that puts half the effort into learning his class than a weaver player will still do twice as good, at least in pvp.

Arenanet, please fix this spec! You can't just throw out a broken mechanic and let the players figure out if it works or not. I payed for the addon and I expect a polished product. And when the community tells you to do something, you should react.

No, they shouldn't just react like trained monkeys. Everybody wants their main to be op: ex. 2 second cd on attunement swapping.Having played now with weaver on staff, scepter and sword (and I'm no expert) what I think it should need some damage buff (on scepter and sword), the AA on sword to be a bit quicker with more range, and maybe the attunement swapping a bit quicker (let's say 0.4-0.5 seconds)

@cursE.1794 said:Whenever I play weaver, I feel like I'm forced onto rails, taking away any reactive gameplay and making me memorize a fixed rotation.

That's what any decent dps spec does really. The rest simply press fixed skills off-cooldown, which is plain boring. Reactive gameplay is a dps loss, so it will never be part of the meta.

@cursE.1794 said:And when the community tells you to do something, you should react.

LOL. No. The vast majority of the community requests are outright unreasonable. Which is only normal - the community is not composed entirely of professional game designers.

@MrRay.3027 said:No, they shouldn't just react like trained monkeys. Everybody wants their main to be op: ex. 2 second cd on attunement swapping.Having played now with weaver on staff, scepter and sword (and I'm no expert) what I think it should need some damage buff (on scepter and sword), the AA on sword to be a bit quicker with more range, and maybe the attunement swapping a bit quicker (let's say 0.4-0.5 seconds)

OP mentioned nothing about, or even hinted at, wanting weaver to be overpowered...(S)He is talking about a spec that has been made needlessly over complex that it's off-putting and inefficient comparatively.

The dev team builds and balances mostly for pve raid content since hot, and they hardly consider anything spvp or wvw related in their design process. Yes, I can quote a dev stating they are looking for balances changes that "don't screw over pve"... and that's a huge part of the problem. Also, there is a very poor track record here with everything profession related, and that stems back to alpha designs... yet here we are.

@MrRay.3027 said:No, they shouldn't just react like trained monkeys. Everybody wants their main to be op

I don't want weaver to be op. I don't want more damage, or defense or whatever, at least that's not the reason I opened this thread. I want the mechanic to be fixed.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@cursE.1794 said:Whenever I play weaver, I feel like I'm forced onto rails, taking away any reactive gameplay and making me memorize a fixed rotation.

I completely agree. Fixed rotations are a bad thing. Good thing is they are only necessary in certain situations, like raid bosses. But weaver forces these fixed rotations in almost every situation!

Of course developers shouldn't react to everything the community suggests. But this is a different situation, because it's a very large part of the community having the same problem: Weaver doesn't "flow". Of course the suggestions to fix it are different, but the major problem of a broken mechanic should be addressed.

Nah, fixed rotations aren't a bad thing. They give a feel of flow to the gameplay. And no, weaver doesn't enforce them. You can randomly attune and spam skills, just like you would on a core ele or tempest. And just like on them, it wouldn't be efficient. Rotations are only about efficiency. And no, weaver does flow.

You are arguing in extremes. Either a fixed rotation or completely random skill spamming. Reactive gameplay doesn't mean random skill spamming. A core elementalist sees someone approaching with a ranged weapon, jumps into earth and uses focus #4 to reflect the shots. That's reactive gameplay and doesn't fit either category. Weaver can't do that anymore because offhand and #3 skills are mostly locked away and that remains as a fact.

@cursE.1794 said:... is following a fixed rotation as staff berserker. There is simply no other use to it.

Condi Weaver begs to differ. Weaver isn't a really good defensive or support spec, but it isn't supposed to be.

I have been playing an ele since launch. And I loved the class because the elements let you play reactive. It just makes sense. I'm having a hard time understanding the weaver. It seems as though it's impossible to be reactive. For instance let's say your on fire primary and lighting secondary. Well let's say I want to go water to heal myself with the dagger offhand ability. Well I can't, because my primary becomes water and my secondary is now fire. So now I have to wait even longer to cast switch to water again.

Maybe in looking at this wrong? Is there something I'm missing? Maybe kkm not playing this incorrectly, but when I want to do something based on the situation, I can't unless I want to cycle through more elements.

@Swiper.8352 said:I have been playing an ele since launch. And I loved the class because the elements let you play reactive. It just makes sense. I'm having a hard time understanding the weaver. It seems as though it's impossible to be reactive. For instance let's say your on fire primary and lighting secondary. Well let's say I want to go water to heal myself with the dagger offhand ability. Well I can't, because my primary becomes water and my secondary is now fire. So now I have to wait even longer to cast switch to water again.

Maybe in looking at this wrong? Is there something I'm missing? Maybe kkm not playing this incorrectly, but when I want to do something based on the situation, I can't unless I want to cycle through more elements.

This is true, but I've found you can create a rotation that results in desired pairings. For example, running Sword/Dagger you can always do earth then water in your rotation. This allows Sword+2 (water field) followed by Earth+4+5 (two blasts). If using a fire-earth-fire-earth type of rotation for DPS, then half the time your one water attune away from the earth+water combination.

Instead of thinking like old Ele which is just fire, water, air, earth -- you need to think in terms of the attunement pairs. You still can't get to an offhand attunement immediately, which I do think is a serious limitation of the class, but you can get into some rotation habits that increase the probability of being one-attune away from what you want.

Weaver needs big changes - and I honestly think that it is not just damage and sword AA attack speed, it needs to do more. I urge people to take a look at what the other elite specs are doing and how they are changing the way to play classes, with new mechanics and fun / interesting stuff.

Whilst if you take an objective look at the Weaver, it is a DPS spec that is designed to be a "bruiser" - which is exactly what base Ele has always been and what Tempest is. So it is once more, exactly the same. (insert Same, Same, but different meme here)

Objectively, Weaver offers no new abilities- sure it offers new skills - but let's bring them down to their essence and you will notice that Ele is the only class that does not have anything new with the elite specs - it is always the same deal with Fire skills doing X damage and maybe apply burning (heck cauterizing strike is literally the same thing as Fire Grab, only worse), Water skills apply X-Y% damage and heal. Air skills apply X+% damage and do nothing or rarely an interrupt or vul. Earth skills do X-y% damage and apply bleed. Pure and simple.

Weaver is pretty much the same thing ele has always been. It offers no new condis, no new boons, no interplay with boon / condi, no way to strip/steal/corrupt boons, no new look at skills/attunements, no new way to deal with condi (it is again just water) - in sum, it has literally nothing new.

The traits are also big offenders as they offer nothing new- it is purely stat buffs by means of either direct stat buffs (Master's Fortitude, GM minor) or through damage% buffs (Adept 1, Major 1 and 2, GM 1).

While the ones that may seem "different" from pure stat buffs and what ele has always had, aren't really different at all, Adept 2 is a weaker version of One with Air, Bolstered Elements is pretty much the same thing as Arcane Shield (only worse), and Invigorating Strikes is really just a weaker version of Evasive Arcana heal on water (these two, btw, are clearly meant to help replace the reliance on the Arcane traits they are meant to be "alternatives to" and thus promote the drop of the Arcane trait line). Unraveled hexes was just a new "Diamond Skin" to replace the now pretty much worthless Earth trait, and Woven Strides is just trying to borrow from Water trait line to help with the abundance of condi that ele is becoming defenseless to.

The bruiser element is also greatly present by the fact that the "defensive traits" are purely damage soakers (Barrier - with abysmal application - and Vitality).

Weaver could - and in my opinion should - be a great skirmish way to play the class. With mobility, blinds and interrupts being its defense, but with a good in / burst / out mechanic (being a great mix with Air Lightning Rod or Fresh Air).

But it isn't, as I take a more and more objective look at the Weaver, I notice how it doesn't really change the class, it is just more of the same with the same playstyle once again.

And I don't know about the rest, but playing PvP and roaming WvW, from what I have seen, there are no Weavers out there and barely any eles, which to me feels like the class needs change and I really hope the "fix" is not just upping the stats, but actually making it something new and interesting.

I also hope that we can all be a voice of unisson that just Damage buffs won't help the Weaver to be different and fun, it is just more of the same that, quite frankly, can be easily fixed by just upping the damage on existing skills and you wouldn't even notice the difference.

Rather, giving new tools for the class to engage and play, can really make it something different and fun - maybe not for everyone (but just damage buffs can be done to the weapon skills modifiers), whilst if we don't get new things for the class - we will only just be the "old style" and really just jumping from old elite spec to new elite spec, but playing the very same way while sucking on our fingers looking at the new classes going all Jedi, gaining mesmer portals, boon stripping/stealing, etc. while we are still doing our fixed might rotation.

Well, I don't care for either PvP or roaming. In large-scale WvW there are weavers and I'm playing one myself. Artillery style, long range heavy damage, just as I like it. It is certainly much better than Tempest at this, as Tempest lacked the damage at long range.

@Feanor.2358 said:Well, I don't care for either PvP or roaming. In large-scale WvW there are weavers and I'm playing one myself. Artillery style, long range heavy damage, just as I like it. It is certainly much better than Tempest at this, as Tempest lacked the damage at long range.

In my WvW large-scale I see no Weavers as well - and quite frankly for a good reason. Scourge is far better at doing damage so it is the preferred "nuke class".

But that is not the point of my post and so I will get back to it.

Do you honestly and objectively feel that - in your preferred play of large-scale WvW weaver is any different than ele? Does it offer you anything that base ele didn't (with the exception of the added damage stats / %buffs)

To me it also seems that Weaver is exactly the same as base ele and Tempest in that sense - it does not offer anything but the damage that if we recall back in the day was where ele reigned supreme. (And could once again through simple damage buffs to weapon skills).

So, again, it is nothing new - which is against what an elite spec should be "a new look at classes".

@Azel.4786 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Well, I don't care for either PvP or roaming. In large-scale WvW there are weavers and I'm playing one myself. Artillery style, long range heavy damage, just as I like it. It is certainly much better than Tempest at this, as Tempest lacked the damage at long range.

Agreed -- it's pretty much the exact same thing as base ele with quicker, but cumbersome, attunement switching and 6 new weapon skills, and 6 stance skills. Overall not really that innovative compared to what many of the other elites offer. Sword is new, and I think nicely done, but with the issues others have identified with auto-attack speed being a bit slow. I enjoy the sword but I'm not about to zerg dive with Sw/D Weaver. Maybe Sw/F so I can hit my invuln on the way in -- but if I was going to do that, I'd go with tempest + aura share with boons/heal on aura. No reason to zerg dive on Weaver.

@juno.1840 said:Agreed -- it's pretty much the exact same thing as base ele with quicker, but cumbersome, attunement switching and 6 new weapon skills, and 6 stance skills. Overall not really that innovative compared to what many of the other elites offer.

And to add more fire to the discussions - do we really have 6 new skills and 6 stances?

Taking again an objective look - many of the fusion skills are mechanically the same that we already have, although it could be argued that they give something to attunements that otherwise did not have it.

The stances though:

• Water is basically signet of restoration slightly different (and I think weaker);
• Earth stance is basically arcane shield (but weaker against big single hits and without damage component)
• Air is a bit better, but it is somewhat similar to Tempest air shout;
• Elemental Resonance feels to me just like Glyph of Storms, but that changes with your attunement after being cast;
• The elite can be considered the only one new, but I find it to be too weak - it should have a pull to center as an opening for burst set up and then a pull once the stance expires.

Yeah the elite is not that great. In a pure support role I can see it being 20s of awesome -- but nobody is taking Weaver over Tempest for pure support.

I'm tired of getting crappy elites. Really the only one that's good is FGS. If you don't like conjures then what's left is mediocre at best.

@juno.1840 said:Yeah the elite is not that great. In a pure support role I can see it being 20s of awesome -- but nobody is taking Weaver over Tempest for pure support.

I'm tired of getting crappy elites. Really the only one that's good is FGS. If you don't like conjures then what's left is mediocre at best.

Agreed, it is a damn shame that we see other classes with table turning elites while we are looking at our FGS and thinking it is a nice escape tool or cover DPS in raids / Boss fights.

Also in my post I forgot about unravel, but then again it is an inutility skill rather than an utility one.

Weaver, the most complex and the most useless elite spec in the game. Core elementalist is better by ages, 500% easier to play and more effective. Why do we have TWO such a weird elite specs? Tempest with FOUR seconds casts? Can we please get a normal and simple Elite spec?

It's also worth pointing out that the weaver elite offers nothing for a power weaver. It's all utility or Condi stuff. Geez. Seriously, they could have reduced the air bonus to 25% move speed and then some power damage buff, but no ;-;

I also wish the top trait in the first line wasn't so wimpy. Being able to spit out weakness would be nice, but it's 3 sec every 10 sec, and most opponents are Condi anyways. Maybe change it to be a weakness that reduces outgoing Condi damage but doesn't decrease endurance regen. 6-8 sec worth in a small aoe on...several crits in a row? Something that doesn't just proc off doing stuff you normally do.

@Curennos.9307 said:It's also worth pointing out that the weaver elite offers nothing for a power weaver. It's all utility or Condi stuff. Geez. Seriously, they could have reduced the air bonus to 25% move speed and then some power damage buff, but no ;-;

I also wish the top trait in the first line wasn't so wimpy. Being able to spit out weakness would be nice, but it's 3 sec every 10 sec, and most opponents are Condi anyways. Maybe change it to be a weakness that reduces outgoing Condi damage but doesn't decrease endurance regen. 6-8 sec worth in a small aoe on...several crits in a row? Something that doesn't just proc off doing stuff you normally do.

The Elite is fantastic for a specific power nuke build..... I'll give a hint, Lightning Rod Trait and mad king runes. It's also good CC and REZ/STOMP denial.

You guys that are struggling with Weaver, keep practising and get creative with builds and traits, there's a few good builds there to play with depending on what you want.

lel weaver is 2 flashy evades and a possible stunlock vs oponents on cd with no followup whatsoever. i stopped switching to fire thats how pointless it is to try to hit something.

@Azel.4786 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Well, I don't care for either PvP or roaming. In large-scale WvW there are weavers and I'm playing one myself. Artillery style, long range heavy damage, just as I like it. It is certainly much better than Tempest at this, as Tempest lacked the damage at long range.

What exactly should it offer? Support? Tempest already does that. Should it somehow turn the most fragile of all professions into a frontliner? Nah, I'm fine with what Weaver offers. It's a distinctly different gameplay, and that's enough even though the role is the same.

@Feanor.2358 said:What exactly should it offer? Support? Tempest already does that. Should it somehow turn the most fragile of all professions into a frontliner? Nah, I'm fine with what Weaver offers. It's a distinctly different gameplay, and that's enough even though the role is the same.

Like I said,

"Weaver is pretty much the same thing ele has always been. It offers no new condis, no new boons, no interplay with boon / condi, no way to strip/steal/corrupt boons, no new look at skills/attunements, no new way to deal with condi (it is again just water) - in sum, it has literally nothing new."

Support is the Tempest role, but that doesn't mean that Weaver couldn't offer something different than just stats. Weaver could, for example, offer better ways to cause blind or cover condis, offer condi that eles did not have access to before, perhaps offer a way to gain Quickness, a Way to strip / steal boons from enemies, there is so much it could - but it just doesn't.

Would also love if we could have interesting new traits such as Lightning Rod and Fresh Air, but alas, no. Nothing that really defines how you play.

It is the same mechanic all over again - a bruiser that relies on heals (from dodging or casting), boons and blasting its own fields to survive and do damage in more melee oriented playstyle. And from range, it is exactly the same thing it has always been.

It just looks different, but deep down it is exactly the same.

What new condis or boons does a Firebrand offer? Adding these regularly on the new specs would only make every class be able to do every one of them. And then what? It's not a sustainable policy and it's not a great design either. I like how certain professions have their "profiles" in the conditions/boons they can work with.

The core spec mechanic is pretty defining to the gameplay, so I'm gonna disagree there as well. Besides, "deep down" everything is the same - manage resources/cooldowns to win the race between your hit points and your opponent's. That's not an argument. An elite spec should give a new feel to the existing profession (which Weaver does) while fitting in its archetype (which Weaver does again). Everything beside that is just "but it's not what I wanted". Well guess what, you can't possibly make a spec which is "what I wanted" for every single player out there.

In playing weaver for awhile in WvW, it doesn't feel like the new weapon or elite skill really bring much to the table. The mechanics are interesting but clunky. A stun break with a 1 sec cast time?

It's not half bad on staff with full DPS + arcane. Insane amount of AoE and CC. You can mow through attunements and blow people up as long as you manage positioning and any ranged classes that happen to notice you.