A question on Elder Dragons gaining new magic [Lore] — Guild Wars 2 Forums

A question on Elder Dragons gaining new magic [Lore]

So Season 3 establishes that as Elder Dragons die, the magic can be usurped by other Elder Dragons in varying degrees. I have two questions for hopeful clarity on this matter:

  1. What stops an Elder Dragon from trying to steal magic another living Elder Dragon's magic? It's not like they'd just leave all fire magic they come across aside for Primordus; evidence shows that they consume all magic they come across.
  2. Why was it that Kralkatorrik gained powers from Balthazar's flavor of magic, and not from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag given that Balthazar had been stripped of his divinity and power and "refueled" himself from those sources? He, after all, was no Elder Dragon, had no ties to The All, and was no longer a god proper.

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Comments

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So Season 3 establishes that as Elder Dragons die, the magic can be usurped by other Elder Dragons in varying degrees. I have two questions for hopeful clarity on this matter:

    1. What stops an Elder Dragon from trying to steal magic another living Elder Dragon's magic? It's not like they'd just leave all fire magic they come across aside for Primordus; evidence shows that they consume all magic they come across.
    2. Why was it that Kralkatorrik gained powers from Balthazar's flavor of magic, and not from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag given that Balthazar had been stripped of his divinity and power and "refueled" himself from those sources? He, after all, was no Elder Dragon, had no ties to The All, and was no longer a god proper.

    The gods arent really gods in the sense we see gods. Iirc they were simply mist travelers that are able to store and use vast quantities of magic.

    As for the bloodstone, i dont think the bloodstone has a specific flavour of magic. Obv i could be wrong on that but i thought it was just magic in its purest essense so absorbing it would buff your attribute of magic.

    Example, The mesmer boss in w3 of the raid used bloodstone which in turn massively busted her mesmer like attributes.

    Same with matthias which i pressume was an elementalist.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So Season 3 establishes that as Elder Dragons die, the magic can be usurped by other Elder Dragons in varying degrees. I have two questions for hopeful clarity on this matter:

    1. What stops an Elder Dragon from trying to steal magic another living Elder Dragon's magic? It's not like they'd just leave all fire magic they come across aside for Primordus; evidence shows that they consume all magic they come across.

    Same thing that stops you from trying to steal anything from a heavily armed man. They'd risk getting their own magic stolen.

    1. Why was it that Kralkatorrik gained powers from Balthazar's flavor of magic, and not from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag given that Balthazar had been stripped of his divinity and power and "refueled" himself from those sources? He, after all, was no Elder Dragon, had no ties to The All, and was no longer a god proper.

    Kral didn't come into contact with the Bloodstone's magic. That was all absorbed by Balthazar.
    Also the bloodstones were pruposedly created to seal magic away from elder dragons, so there might be some intrinsic property to them that makes it impossible for elder dragons to either harm or draw energy from them.

  • @zealex.9410 said:
    The gods arent really gods in the sense we see gods. Iirc they were simply mist travelers that are able to store and use vast quantities of magic.

    It's quite a bit more and I never see them as Abrahamic gods. They are gods in the sense of polytheistic gods.

    @zealex.9410 said:
    As for the bloodstone, i dont think the bloodstone has a specific flavour of magic. Obv i could be wrong on that but i thought it was just magic in its purest essense so absorbing it would buff your attribute of magic.

    Preservation. Destruction. Denial. Aggression.

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Same thing that stops you from trying to steal anything from a heavily armed man. They'd risk getting their own magic stolen.

    So what stopped Primordus from stealing every other Elder Dragon's magic for the 50 some years he was awake and no one (sans maybe the deep sea dragon) was?

    What about taking bullets and guns when you're across the block from that heavily armed man?

    Not a solid answer.

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Kral didn't come into contact with the Bloodstone's magic. That was all absorbed by Balthazar.
    Also the bloodstones were pruposedly created to seal magic away from elder dragons, so there might be some intrinsic property to them that makes it impossible for elder dragons to either harm or draw energy from them.

    Kralk came into contact with the Bloodstone's magic when Balthazar died. Balthazar's magic was all from the Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag. Yet we only see Kralk get dimension hopping abilities from Balthazar.

    And the Bloodstones themselves, sure, but that doesn't mean the magic within them is hidden when released. After all, the Pact lured the Death-Branded Shatterer with a bloodstone elemental, and in Arah, the High Priests were utilizing shards of Bloodstone.

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  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    The gods arent really gods in the sense we see gods. Iirc they were simply mist travelers that are able to store and use vast quantities of magic.

    It's quite a bit more and I never see them as Abrahamic gods. They are gods in the sense of polytheistic gods.

    Not even in that sense... They're pretty much only extremely magical and "extra-terrestrial" beings. BTW, Humans are supposedly also not native of the world of Tyria.
    We don't really know the actual origin of the human gods, or the human race for that matter, but especially since Kormir (a "regular" human) was able to ascend to godhood, it's very likely that the "gods" are simply incredibly adept mages from their original world.

    @zealex.9410 said:
    As for the bloodstone, i dont think the bloodstone has a specific flavour of magic. Obv i could be wrong on that but i thought it was just magic in its purest essense so absorbing it would buff your attribute of magic.

    Preservation. Destruction. Denial. Aggression.

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Same thing that stops you from trying to steal anything from a heavily armed man. They'd risk getting their own magic stolen.

    So what stopped Primordus from stealing every other Elder Dragon's magic for the 50 some years he was awake and no one (sans maybe the deep sea dragon) was?

    What about taking bullets and guns when you're across the block from that heavily armed man?

    Not a solid answer.

    Well, if you want solid answers, go e-mail the world builder. All we can do here is speculate, since that isn't addressed anywhere. But it's also the most logical answer. That's the same answer as to why, for the most part, predators don't hunt other predators, it's too risky. Also, we know that killing elder dragons creates an imbalance in the world, the Dragons themselves should be aware of this, and albeit destructive, not even the Dragon of Death seemed to be Nihilistic.

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Kral didn't come into contact with the Bloodstone's magic. That was all absorbed by Balthazar.
    Also the bloodstones were pruposedly created to seal magic away from elder dragons, so there might be some intrinsic property to them that makes it impossible for elder dragons to either harm or draw energy from them.

    Kralk came into contact with the Bloodstone's magic when Balthazar died. Balthazar's magic was all from the Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag. Yet we only see Kralk get dimension hopping abilities from Balthazar.

    Because that, and Fire Magic was the only magic inherent to Balthazar. And not all of Balthazar's magic was from those sources. He still had some of his own, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to come to Tyria, or reignite Magdaer. He was weakened, but he wasn't drained.

    And the Bloodstones themselves, sure, but that doesn't mean the magic within them is hidden when released. After all, the Pact lured the Death-Branded Shatterer with a bloodstone elemental, and in Arah, the High Priests were utilizing shards of Bloodstone.

    Yes, and the Mursaat also used bloodstone to keep the Titans locked away. Everything seems to point to Bloodstones not "remembering" the magic they absorbed. If you think about it, the bloodstones contained a ton of different magics, including some of the magic that was given to humans by Abbadon, and then was sealed back in the stones with the human king's blood. And yet, everytime you see any reference to bloodstone magic, it's that, "bloodstone magic". It's never Elementalist Magic, or Jotun Magic, or Dwarven Magic, etc.
    Just like electricity doesn't remember if it's source was solar, wind, coal, or whatever, same thing happens with the magic.
    Also if you look at it, even the Elder Dragons were the same thing. I mean Zaithan was absorbing every kind of magical Artefact he could find, and yet he didn't get "new" magics.
    What i believe happens with Dragons absorbing other Dragon's attributes when one dies is that those aspects of magic that they embody must remain, so to "keep the balance", the other Dragons end up taking up part of that trait as well. It's kind of like Elder Dragons being the ultimate elementals, and kind of like the Green Lantern Central Battery, they are the source of that kind of magic as well, probably, which is why they shouldn't be destroyed.
    If you think about it, it all makes sense if you think of them like that. They store elemental magics, and slowly release them, but when they're getting depleted, they start consuming "free" magic in order to keep that flow.
    At least that's my head cannon.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Well, if you want solid answers, go e-mail the world builder. All we can do here is speculate, since that isn't addressed anywhere.

    That's literally what this thread is for. That's literally what the AFC is here for. Did you forget where you're posting?

    I am not here to speculate. I know the lore pretty well. I know there is no answer in the lore. That's why I'm here asking questions to developers. If all I wanted to do was speculate, I'd stick to the lore forum here I often post.

    So sorry if I seem a bit rude, but you honestly shouldn't respond with "well you should ask the developers!" when responding to a thread that is in an AMA forum for the developers.

    Also if you look at it, even the Elder Dragons were the same thing. I mean Zaithan was absorbing every kind of magical Artefact he could find, and yet he didn't get "new" magics.

    Hence my asking the developers these questions.

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  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When dragons sleep isnt tjeir magic (well most of it) released into the world? Thats the circle from what i understand they absorb and expel the magic over time.

    So a sleeping dragon wouldnt be a grand prize esp for how they might have been sleeping when kralk originally woke up.

  • @zealex.9410 said:
    When dragons sleep isnt tjeir magic (well most of it) released into the world? Thats the circle from what i understand they absorb and expel the magic over time.

    So a sleeping dragon wouldnt be a grand prize esp for how they might have been sleeping when kralk originally woke up.

    But their magic would be in the world. So if Elder Dragons just got to use any magic by eating that magic, why didn't Primordus eat up crystal magic in the world while the Kralk slept, and became the Elder Fire Crystal Dragon?

    Hence the question. What stopped Primordus from doing exactly that?

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  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    When dragons sleep isnt tjeir magic (well most of it) released into the world? Thats the circle from what i understand they absorb and expel the magic over time.

    So a sleeping dragon wouldnt be a grand prize esp for how they might have been sleeping when kralk originally woke up.

    But their magic would be in the world. So if Elder Dragons just got to use any magic by eating that magic, why didn't Primordus eat up crystal magic in the world while the Kralk slept, and became the Elder Fire Crystal Dragon?

    Hence the question. What stopped Primordus from doing exactly that?

    Maybe Kraalkatorik is so attuned to Crystal magic that it would be dangerous for Primordus to consume it? Sort of like why you don't want to fight Magneto if you have a skeleton that is affected by magnetic forces (or blood, apparently?). However, once a dragon dies, it isn't just the type of energy that's up for grabs, but the aspect/sphere/domain of the All that gives control over the energy type.

  • PsDh.2471PsDh.2471 Member ✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But their magic would be in the world. So if Elder Dragons just got to use any magic by eating that magic, why didn't Primordus eat up crystal magic in the world while the Kralk slept, and became the Elder Fire Crystal Dragon?

    Hence the question. What stopped Primordus from doing exactly that?

    This is just me speculating from the perspective of the Elder Dragons themselves: If you begin to consume part of my (an Elder Dragons) magic, would I feel that loss of magic?
    Mordremoth awoke due to the increased influx of ley-lines magic caused by Scarlet Briar. My theory would then be "Elder dragons feel fluctuations in the magic around them". Would Primordus willingly try to steal magic from a sleeping, potentially more powerful, Elder Dragon at risk of waking and fighting it? In this episode we learned that Kralk feared not being part of the world. So Elder Dragons are forces of destruction, and yet they still possess a desire to exist and survive.

    I would also like to add that the ability to sense fluctuations in magic might be how Kralk was able to hunt down Aurene in LWS4 Episode 4, as iirc that part was not clearly specified.

    At least that's my assumption, and might be completely wrong =)

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    When dragons sleep isnt tjeir magic (well most of it) released into the world? Thats the circle from what i understand they absorb and expel the magic over time.

    So a sleeping dragon wouldnt be a grand prize esp for how they might have been sleeping when kralk originally woke up.

    But their magic would be in the world. So if Elder Dragons just got to use any magic by eating that magic, why didn't Primordus eat up crystal magic in the world while the Kralk slept, and became the Elder Fire Crystal Dragon?

    Hence the question. What stopped Primordus from doing exactly that?

    Is it not possible that like with balthazar that the pure magic they absorb simply increases their power in their field of expertise?

    Magic on its own isnt any specific type of magic. When we say zhaitan's magic i dont think we ever see such magic out in the open, its simply zhaitan's "field of expertise" in the magic that gives him his necromantic powers.

    By destroying the dragons we prob release more than the magic into the world which gives beings that absorb magic the ability to tap into those "fields of expertise".

    Tho id really like an answer to this subject. Iv never really spend much time studying the nature of magic in gw2 but i always thought ppl and beings had a field of expertise and acess to magic simply boosted that.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So Season 3 establishes that as Elder Dragons die, the magic can be usurped by other Elder Dragons in varying degrees. I have two questions for hopeful clarity on this matter:

    1. What stops an Elder Dragon from trying to steal magic another living Elder Dragon's magic? It's not like they'd just leave all fire magic they come across aside for Primordus; evidence shows that they consume all magic they come across.

    The magic they absorb is just magic. It becomes fire magic when Prim absorb it just as it becomes nature magic when Mord absorb it. When Mord absorbed Zaithan magic, he was able to copy Zaithan minions, but they are still nature like. Just like Kral, he can only make branded minions.

    Piecing together what we know so far. According to the vision from Glint, balance has to be restored. When magic was rampant in the world, the Elder Dragons ate their fill of magic and went to sleep. There was no need to steal from each other since there are plenty of magic to go around. The EDs cannot consume all magic and at a certain point, they would fill up and go to slumber -- in theory. This generation is the time for them to get out of hibernation, per se, and feed on magic again before going back to sleep. However, instead of eating his fill, Kral went on an eating frenzy. That is why Aurene needs to stop Kral and restore the balance.

    Yes, it is possible for a dragon to attack another dragon to take their magic, I mean that's what we are trying to do with Kral, kill him so Aurene can absorb his magic. Why they don't do it is , just as I've mentioned, at some point they will have their fill and go to back to sleep. Basically, if you have plenty of food to eat, you won't have to go break in to your neighbor's house to take their food. There's plenty of food to go around.

    1. Why was it that Kralkatorrik gained powers from Balthazar's flavor of magic, and not from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag given that Balthazar had been stripped of his divinity and power and "refueled" himself from those sources? He, after all, was no Elder Dragon, had no ties to The All, and was no longer a god proper.

    First of, the bloodstones are just batteries to fuel magic. Back in GW1, the White Mantle performed blood sacrifices on the bloodstone to activate it, basically giving a dead battery a jump start. Once the magic is depleted, the bloodstone is just that, a dead battery.

    When Balthazar extracted Prim's and Jormag's magic, it turns into volatile magic or raw magic. This raw magic becomes fire magic when used by Balthazar. If for instance, Lyssa extracted the magic, it will fuel her Illusion and Chaos magic, she will not be casting fire and ice spells due to this. Each professions absorbs this raw or volatile magic, a.k.a. "energy", and use it to fuel their preferred magic (e.g. Elementalist, Thief) or simply draw strength from it (e.g. Warrior, Paragon).

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
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