Discussion on WvW builds and weapon sets

Hey Everyone! Lately, I have been testing out a bunch of thief builds and weapon sets. I am a WvW roamer, and used to roam almost exclusively on an acro-staff build. I have a set of power gear that is mostly marauder stats with some zerk mixed in. I run Daredevil only because I was not a big fan of S/D core thief, and I really just don't like or enjoy Deadeye. I am curious if any of you have been able to make a D/D power set work, and if so, can you share some details? I have used it with CR/TR/DD and DA/TR/DD and the results are inconclusive so far. I prefer D/D over D/P because I like to brawl and feel like the extra evades of DB help with that. I also like to play staff with Acro/TR/DD and might run it again. Is anyone having success with a D/D power setup or a staff power setup? I know it's not meta for roaming but I like these sets. Unfortunately, it does not seem to work playing them together because of what traits I need for either one, and I cannot figure out how to give up Shortbow on any build I play. Also, to you Deadeye roamers, what gives you trouble from Daredevils? I am struggling against these perma-stealth Deadeyes.

Outside of this, what's working for you in terms of builds and weapons in WvW roaming right now?

Acro staff still works, though the fights are longer than they used to be due to sustain powercreep. When I run Staff I generally do CS/Trick/DrD with D/P secondary in Marauder gear. If you are experienced enough with your Thief/Staff dodges and endurance management then you won't miss the lack of sustain from Acro. You can open your fights with a hefty backstab thanks to the CS line, then swap to Staff for the proceeding offensive. A single Bound+Staff3 will chunk 7-8k of most roaming targets with extremely minimal punish frames.

I been in your shoes plenty of times. I gave up the d/d daredevil and went to s/d core.

But if you still have passion for it then I will give you my builds and advice;

D/D daredevil . Full marauder, bers or bers/valk ring/aml/etc with brawler runes. Air and Celerity. DA223/TR312/DD222. Withdraw, Infiltrator's Signet, ShadowStep, Shadow Refuge,Dagger Storm.

Initial fight you would need to bait out their big damaging skills/heals/dodges so their major problem with Dual Daggers is the sticking to their person and pressuring. Thus why you have infiltrator's signet and use that first and save your steal when they are half to low hp or when you healed because of the 5 stack might because of your runes. Because of steal you get the boons plus quickness from celerity and steals your enemies boon too. This is a good build to fight almost all builds but requires a lot of patience, timing, and practice.... AND PATIENCE. Shadow Refuge is your reset/stomp/reviving people. Dagger storm is your invul for 4 sec with damage/slow and reflect deadeyes and rangers(this is your trump counter to them). Good move with blobs if you shadow step and dagger storm them and then port back. LOL they hate that.

NOTES: not always good with blobs... that is what the shortbow is for. Poison gas and to run from them.

@Turk.5460 said:Acro staff still works, though the fights are longer than they used to be due to sustain powercreep. When I run Staff I generally do CS/Trick/DrD with D/P secondary in Marauder gear. If you are experienced enough with your Thief/Staff dodges and endurance management then you won't miss the lack of sustain from Acro. You can open your fights with a hefty backstab thanks to the CS line, then swap to Staff for the proceeding offensive. A single Bound+Staff3 will chunk 7-8k of most roaming targets with extremely minimal punish frames.

Thanks, and that makes sense to run it with critical strikes and the backstab potential. What do you do without shortbow 5 and swiftness from either acro or dash dodge though? I guess you can stealth reset during fights, but this build would be pretty slow for roaming wouldn't it?

@Xenji.4907 said:I been in your shoes plenty of times. I gave up the d/d daredevil and went to s/d core.

What finally made you switch, and did it pay off? I am not against sword, I just love daredevil dodges and started the game right when HoT launched. I even tried running S/D with daredevil before, but I found it lackluster. I did test core S/D in ranked pvp, but I was not great at it.

Try daredevil dp + staff or double staff with trait that gives initiative on weapon swap with energy sigils. Tr/cs(with healing trait) /dd(with conid cleanse trait)Edit. OH someone already mentioned it. As u said, u can reset with d/p, and u can fasten ur travel with vault/hearseaker(I'm not sure what is faster).I find this build rly good for outnumbered fights, since 1 vault can heal for 1/3rd or more life. Specially good with a group, but for solo roaming I find s/d superior. I didn't like it in the past, but I convinced myself somehow

Mainly, d/d was always at a disadvantage in melee and especially in range. We are over powered by our other sets like s/d and d/p. They evade, invis, and constant port always leaves us in the dust. How cloak and dagger and back stab is set up for us, you slowly drift to the one shot build with assassin signet because you have very few ports because of the CD. And their auto attack was nerf badly so you can't pressure as effectively. Thus, which is why you want to make it count on your port and not mess up. You only focus on setting it up the one shot. s/d and d/p has the initiative ports, invis, and evade(s/d) that helps with sustain while d/d only has cloak(bad since you have to be face to face with danger) and death bloom(Very short distance and locked animation) which is bad since its such a small range. So if your fight takes too long then you have very little utilities to get you out especially when more enemies are change the fight to 1vs1 to plus 1. What we have to understand is that wvw is an actually war battle and not a dual. And there is no rules to that. You can maybe dual sometimes. The only time I notice it was fun is medium size fights of (10-15) that they do okay as an assassin and then run or invis to reset and do it again or short bow with the splash daze and poison. D/D is good for hitting a boss in pve but people are smarter then an NPC monster.

Tangent topic:I wish Anet will give d/d a port in exchange for something. My idea is that that death bloom lose a stack or 2 of bleeding to be able to mark the first OR last target touched and then replaced a new skill that is a lesser form of "Shadow Pursuit". No boons or break stun needed(just the port option). So this solves the spamming and gives a port option so we can pressure better or run into danger more if not used correctly. xD

Good thoughts here. I'm going to test staff with d/p swap with critical/tr/DD. I won't really have to change my gear much to try it out.

@Sontaran.5904 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Acro staff still works, though the fights are longer than they used to be due to sustain powercreep. When I run Staff I generally do CS/Trick/DrD with D/P secondary in Marauder gear. If you are experienced enough with your Thief/Staff dodges and endurance management then you won't miss the lack of sustain from Acro. You can open your fights with a hefty backstab thanks to the CS line, then swap to Staff for the proceeding offensive. A single Bound+Staff3 will chunk 7-8k of most roaming targets with extremely minimal punish frames.

If I'm on a Daredevil build and I'm not using Acro, I will swap to Unhindered Combatant, Dodge twice, Steal for ToTC (no target), then swap back to Bounding Dodger and Heal to regain the lost endurance. This was common practice forever, but became even easier when they changed the UI to have the hero panel retain which page you were on when you closed it. (Though there were plenty of people who used a macro before this to hotswap the two traits, which was against the ToS at the time). I just won't engage anything until Steal comes back, but generally if you're already swapping traits for speed you've already looked around to make sure no threats are close by.

This all was unnecessary before they nerfed Unhindered Combatant by giving it Exhaustion. My main build before that nerf was Acro/Trick/Daredevil (with Unhindered Combatant) Sword/Dagger + Shortbow. I still think if they wanted to nerf it in this way they should have made it so Exhaustion only applied of you broke Immobilize...considering how incredibly common of a condition cripple is.

Update: I tested out Crit/TR/DD with staff last night along with d/p on swap. It was good getting a few backstabs for initiating fights, but it's a tough set to use with how mobile a lot of the classes are now. I found that if I tried to run from a group when I was solo roaming, they typically had someone that could catch me and slow me down before the rest of them arrived. I was definitely missing my shortbow as I have become so used to it's utility. The staff was useful when I was grouped, but it was not as useful when I was solo. It seems like the best choice here is to run d/p with sb when I am solo roaming and then just equip the staff when I need to clear out a camp or if I end up in group play.

I think it's true that d/d only works if you start using the one-shot style play, which is a bit cheesy in my opinion and leaves you caught out when it doesn't work.

I will give s/d a go as well and see how it is.

Does anyone else feel like we have limited options right now that work in WvW as thieves?

Ur best bet is to mess around with all the weapon combo’s and just use what u enjoy the most. DE perma stealth rifle/dp is probably ur best bet if results are ur main prerogative. Unfortunately all the viable builds thief had continually got nurfed into the ground due to nurf cries. S/d is probably ur best duel oriented set but be warned will only be effective if ur skill level on thief are high and relies on u having a very good understanding of how other classes work as a whole. Although some of the community seemed to think thief is a top dueler, who knows maybe it will be for u.as uve already gathered sb is amazing for travel/disengagement

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ur best bet is to mess around with all the weapon combo’s and just use what u enjoy the most. DE perma stealth rifle/dp is probably ur best bet if results are ur main prerogative. Unfortunately all the viable builds thief had continually got nurfed into the ground due to nurf cries. S/d is probably ur best duel oriented set but be warned will only be effective if ur skill level on thief are high and relies on u having a very good understanding of how other classes work as a whole. Although some of the community seemed to think thief is a top dueler, who knows maybe it will be for u.as uve already gathered sb is amazing for travel/disengagement

It's good advice, but it's definitely tough when roaming in tier 1 right now. I took a long break, and I came back after a bunch of thief nerfs. I just need to get my bearings and push on with the sets I enjoy!

@Sontaran.5904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ur best bet is to mess around with all the weapon combo’s and just use what u enjoy the most. DE perma stealth rifle/dp is probably ur best bet if results are ur main prerogative. Unfortunately all the viable builds thief had continually got nurfed into the ground due to nurf cries. S/d is probably ur best duel oriented set but be warned will only be effective if ur skill level on thief are high and relies on u having a very good understanding of how other classes work as a whole. Although some of the community seemed to think thief is a top dueler, who knows maybe it will be for u.as uve already gathered sb is amazing for travel/disengagement

Exactly! U’ll l lose some and win some,just have fun, that’s what matters. The games has a lot of powercreep in it and other than DE thief kinda got left behind so a lot of ur match ups will seem one sided but don’t get triggered or frustrated cuz things are always changing around in this game. Plus if core thief or DD ever get buffed to the level of other classes ur gonna be a monster to fight at that point lol

@Sontaran.5904 said:Update: I tested out Crit/TR/DD with staff last night along with d/p on swap. It was good getting a few backstabs for initiating fights, but it's a tough set to use with how mobile a lot of the classes are now. I found that if I tried to run from a group when I was solo roaming, they typically had someone that could catch me and slow me down before the rest of them arrived. I was definitely missing my shortbow as I have become so used to it's utility. The staff was useful when I was grouped, but it was not as useful when I was solo. It seems like the best choice here is to run d/p with sb when I am solo roaming and then just equip the staff when I need to clear out a camp or if I end up in group play.

You can't pre-load your weapon set in WvW. You need to look at the situation first by scouting your target then switch up your weapons, traits, and skills as needed. You cannot presume that your current set will work. That will always lead you in a disadvantage. Perma stealth is used to reset fights so you can adjust your weapons, traits and skill before re-engaging again. If you are not actively swapping weapons, traits and skills, you're not maximizing your Thief's potential. There will also be times that you have to swap your armor set and runes. It is not unusual to carry around 3 sets of armor in WvW; glass, bunker, and hybrid sets. I personally don't use glass set (e.g. Berserker) so I only carry 2 sets of armor, bunker (anti-condition) and hybrid (condition damage) sets.

I will give s/d a go as well and see how it is.

Hybrid S/D is the way to go.

Does anyone else feel like we have limited options right now that work in WvW as thieves?

There's always been limited options in WvW, in fact there is only 2 options. You either build for solo or for zerg, that's it.

@"Sontaran.5904" said:I think it's true that d/d only works if you start using the one-shot style play, which is a bit cheesy in my opinion and leaves you caught out when it doesn't work.Yep but last night I tried out Sbobby's core D/D build.... and I AM BACK to D/D! His Build : https://tinyurl.com/ddcorethiefI swapped out blinding powered for Infiltrator's Signet. If you start a fight with Infiltrator's Signet+cloakNDagger+backstab and pressure until half or more hp. You can finish with heartseeker(half way)+Steal(invis)+auto attack after to finish off. This build is good for roaming and blobs! This gives me the sustain I need. So happy to be back!

Good for blobs:Heals and Invis/revive for your squad because of Shadow RefugeShort bow for spacing + escaping + splash poison + take out multi downsD/D fast clean up for popped blob.

Watch Sbobby for his well skilled brawling(roaming) multi enemies!https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_VbrQ3rDA7KMVlY8tfRn7w

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:You can't pre-load your weapon set in WvW. You need to look at the situation first by scouting your target then switch up your weapons, traits, and skills as needed. You cannot presume that your current set will work. That will always lead you in a disadvantage.

That is a great idea but that is for players that has the money and play time to have all that gear ready and for players that are more intermediate knowledge and experience with all the weapon combos. Also, not all situations allows you time to stand there and swap out weapons and trait points and skills to do that. But I do agree with you once you reach that point to have all of those ready available to you. I see myself do that all time during blob raids wvw with my guild. I would switching around meta weapon combos to help my blob be better.

@Xenji.4907 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:You can't pre-load your weapon set in WvW. You need to look at the situation first by scouting your target then switch up your weapons, traits, and skills as needed. You cannot presume that your current set will work. That will always lead you in a disadvantage.

Thus I said;"If you are not actively swapping weapons, traits and skills, you're not maximizing your Thief's potential."

You can craft your own ascended items. It's just a matter of how much you really want to do it. If you're not going to put the time and effort in crafting or buying what you need, then you can't really complain that it's not working for you. That's like refusing to add the 4th gear to your transmission and complain that your car drives so slow.

Almost everyone who is doing well in WvW do put in the time and effort to get the proper gears and consumables. I'm a casual player and I'm too lazy to craft legendary items, but I did put time and effort in getting my ascended gears. It took me a long time to do it, but I did it. And yes, it costs time and a lot of gold.

But, this is GW2 and you can play however you want. If your current gear is not working for you going solo roaming and you cannot afford to upgrade, then perhaps you should stay with the zerg until you can afford to upgrade your gear. Otherwise, you're just a lost lamb hunted by hungry wolves out there.

EDIT: typo

@"Xenji.4907" said:Good for blobs:Heals and Invis/revive for your squad because of Shadow RefugeShort bow for spacing + escaping + splash poison + take out multi downsD/D fast clean up for popped blob.

Watch Sbobby for his well skilled brawling(roaming) multi enemies!https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_VbrQ3rDA7KMVlY8tfRn7w

Thanks! I wonder if this would work with swapping DA for DD. You would lose poison and mug on steal but you can still get weaken from DD. You would get dash and Condi cleanse plus healing on dodge but you would lose executioner. I'll test it.

@Xenji.4907 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:You can't pre-load your weapon set in WvW. You need to look at the situation first by scouting your target then switch up your weapons, traits, and skills as needed. You cannot presume that your current set will work. That will always lead you in a disadvantage.

I do ascended conversion at mystic forge to stats I might need from drops in WvW and store them in bank or on alts then episode currency stat changes for trinkets and back pieces, you'd be surprised how stocked up you can get after a bit.

Messing around with the UI might make you feel like you're on another level but it's more a pain than anything else I think, at least leave something on your bar to bounce out if you can't change back to your build because someone locked you up.

@Sontaran.5904 said:Thanks! I wonder if this would work with swapping DA for DD. You would lose poison and mug on steal but you can still get weaken from DD. You would get dash and Condi cleanse plus healing on dodge but you would lose executioner. I'll test it.

LOL you can try and let me know how that goes. I feel like you are fixated with Dash. Dash used to be really good until the Exhaustion came about. Plus the rest of the trait line doesn't help that much for D/D power imo. WIth SA, you can heal and get initiatives while using invis(In Wvw its really helpful in large fights since people get lost in the chaos). If you learn to play thief without dash then you can be more versatile. I was like you too but once you play s/d core then you would understand what I mean.

@kash.9213 said:I do ascended conversion at mystic forge to stats...

OMGOSH! I have 1,200 hours with this game and I never knew you can do that! Thanks!!

I'll try playing core for a while, and maybe it will just force me to get better. Thanks for the tips everyone.

Some updates on wvw builds with dagger dagger (please discuss how it's going for any of you playing it):

If running daredevil, then critical strikes, trickery, and daredevil with dash is safer with huge damage backstabs. It also works with deadly arts if you run dagger training and revealed power buff with executioner. Unfortunately, I find that I have to play a more one-shot oriented build on dual daggers because d/p or s/d works better for brawling. The dash exhaustion nerf that was discussed above sucks. I find that I am trying to just dodge a burst and don't even realize I'm breaking crippled or something and then I don't refill endurance. It feels bad and left me in some shit situations against some revenants.

I ran core as well, and I found that I don't have to be as much of a one-shot build with core on dual daggers. It works with shadow arts, trickery, deadly arts or shadow arts, trickery, critical strikes depending on preference. The former works better for consistent pressure and the latter works better for high damage attacks, stealth, and repeat. Shadow arts definitely adds even more sustain than I expected. It helped a lot with dealing with deadeye cheese builds. I'm still not sure if I like it with deadly arts or critical strikes better, but I think it depends on gear stats. I found that with my marauder gear, I end up with lower ferocity, so critical strikes helps.

I also tested deadly arts, critical strikes, trickery, which was hilarious. You drop people fast but have little to no room for error. You have to play with deception utilities but you don't get the shadow arts benefits and cooldown. It was fun but mostly it just felt like trolling for opportunistic kills with little real utility in wvw roaming.

It's been super fun, and I'm going to keep at it. I'm probably going to setup a second set of ascended gear as well because it's annoying changing runes and trying to account for the different stats.

After playing s/d core as suggested today, I think it's safe to say that it's far superior at brawling. I will probably keep playing it for a bit. We'll see what happens with the balance patch.

@Sontaran.5904 said:The dash exhaustion nerf that was discussed above sucks. I find that I am trying to just dodge a burst and don't even realize I'm breaking crippled or something and then I don't refill endurance.

See... told you but I am glad you see it now.

@Sontaran.5904 said:Shadow arts definitely adds even more sustain than I expected. It helped a lot with dealing with deadeye cheese builds. I'm still not sure if I like it with deadly arts or critical strikes better, but I think it depends on gear stats. I found that with my marauder gear, I end up with lower ferocity, so critical strikes helps.

Yep! I run with Shadow Refuge and it is really helpful for teams fight and for yourself to reset, save people, and down enemies! For critical strikes, is good because of the fury up time for your back stab will hit harder and if you run Invigorating Precision then you can have a bit of more sustain for your hits. I find Sundering Shade is good for the fury for each cloak and dagger and steal so you have more invulner on them and more fury for each. But i still want to stick with deathly arts because of the poison, panic strike, MUG(heal and damage!), and Improvisation(so you can reset skills and have more utilities)

Well, I wish you luck! Because of you making me also review and go back to d/d then now I have a build I love myself. Thank you!