Since this latest patch has a support Fractal Firebrand build been established? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Since this latest patch has a support Fractal Firebrand build been established?

I've seen a lot of build theory crafting (harriers healing, vipers quickbrand, berserkers quickbrand) and many more Firebrands in PUG fractals since the patch. Seems like there is still a lot of variation in the builds I'm seeing. What's the current thinking as to the optimal build, ideally PUG friendly?

Comments

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    harrier with couple of minstrel rings maybe amulet as well(pugs are scary :) ). That is what I see alot.
    Seen only 1 condi quickbrand, viper and again with couple of tralblazer.
    Hope this helps.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    It depends on what you want to play. Firebrand is a good specialization for either playing a condition build or a support build.

    Viper firebrand with balthazar runes works well for stacking burn damage. It is outperformed by core engineer in terms of condition damage since core engineer has multiple conditions to work with, but viper firebrand can help out a core engineer to keep high burn damage on fractal bosses. Viper firebrand is played most of the time due to most pugs not having any issues staying alive.

    Support firebrand can be useful in any pug. I would only recommend playing support firebrand mostly on the difficulty tiers (fractal 25, fractal 50, fractal 75). Personally, I've never had issues with pugs in these fractals, but there were plenty of moments where the entire group could've easily wiped. Outside of those fractals, there really is no point in playing support especially if your group has a druid.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    It depends on what you want to play. Firebrand is a good specialization for either playing a condition build or a support build.

    Viper firebrand with balthazar runes works well for stacking burn damage. It is outperformed by core engineer in terms of condition damage since core engineer has multiple conditions to work with, but viper firebrand can help out a core engineer to keep high burn damage on fractal bosses. Viper firebrand is played most of the time due to most pugs not having any issues staying alive.

    What do you mean by helping out the engi? The damage you do is independent of the other classes (except the boons they might give)

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    It depends on what you want to play. Firebrand is a good specialization for either playing a condition build or a support build.

    Viper firebrand with balthazar runes works well for stacking burn damage. It is outperformed by core engineer in terms of condition damage since core engineer has multiple conditions to work with, but viper firebrand can help out a core engineer to keep high burn damage on fractal bosses. Viper firebrand is played most of the time due to most pugs not having any issues staying alive.

    What do you mean by helping out the engi? The damage you do is independent of the other classes (except the boons they might give)

    I was talking about effect stacking. Burning is an intensity stacking condition, not duration stacking, meaning that each burning stack applies its own intensity based on their duration. The stack with the higher duration is used first, while the shorter stacks are paused. When the higher duration stack expires, the next stack with the longest duration resumes.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    It depends on what you want to play. Firebrand is a good specialization for either playing a condition build or a support build.

    Viper firebrand with balthazar runes works well for stacking burn damage. It is outperformed by core engineer in terms of condition damage since core engineer has multiple conditions to work with, but viper firebrand can help out a core engineer to keep high burn damage on fractal bosses. Viper firebrand is played most of the time due to most pugs not having any issues staying alive.

    What do you mean by helping out the engi? The damage you do is independent of the other classes (except the boons they might give)

    I was talking about effect stacking. Burning is an intensity stacking condition, not duration stacking, meaning that each burning stack applies its own intensity based on their duration. The stack with the higher duration is used first, while the shorter stacks are paused. When the higher duration stack expires, the next stack with the longest duration resumes.

    We'll both stacks would deal damage at the same time. No stacks are paused

  • Ojimaru.8970Ojimaru.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't know how you'd categorize something as "optimal" and "PUG friendly" since PUGs are rarely optimal.

    But, having played a Diviner's Firebrand through T4s for the last three nights, I think it can work well in groups that aren't too reliant on Alacrity for their DPS. With Empowering Might, I'm getting about 85-90 outbound Might generation (compared to a Druid's 125+), and 100% Quickness and Fury generation. My DPS with a Sword/Shield and Greatsword hovers around 6-10k, depending on the fight. You'll of course contribute much more when you can call out your Aegis and Stability, so your DPS know when they can get away with skipping mechanics.

    And as with most Guardian builds, your CC contribution is just really lacking. Heck, I'm even considering experimenting with a Hammer for future runs.

    "Thief? How rude! I'm a Procurement Specialist." -Glenn Gynnafante

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    Ideal would be Berserker FB + Diviner rene. Rene can always go harrier for heals.
    FB doesn't need any extra boon duration for quickness in fractals. Rene needs a lot boon duration though.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    It depends on what you want to play. Firebrand is a good specialization for either playing a condition build or a support build.

    Viper firebrand with balthazar runes works well for stacking burn damage. It is outperformed by core engineer in terms of condition damage since core engineer has multiple conditions to work with, but viper firebrand can help out a core engineer to keep high burn damage on fractal bosses. Viper firebrand is played most of the time due to most pugs not having any issues staying alive.

    What do you mean by helping out the engi? The damage you do is independent of the other classes (except the boons they might give)

    I was talking about effect stacking. Burning is an intensity stacking condition, not duration stacking, meaning that each burning stack applies its own intensity based on their duration. The stack with the higher duration is used first, while the shorter stacks are paused. When the higher duration stack expires, the next stack with the longest duration resumes.

    This is just wrong. All stacks get used and deal damage at the same time. What you describe was the way burning behaved 5 years ago. Well even then it was probably first in first out without factoring the duration.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    Been established by who ? Just try by yourself.

    I did the berserker FB ; but the healing mantra can be very very lame when healing skill needed; and the quickness duration can be a bit short because of the radius of mantras and people not close to you....*and alacrity needed. Diviner Ren + berserker FB is a power compo for "uber" players who know each other, not for random players, nor for all fractals. Vipere still give more DPS; of course this is less "bursty" but burning dmg rise fast enough.
    Harrier support FB is a very good package in fractals : oc perma quickness, stab + aegis spam, resistance and condicleanse, wall etc, and very very strong regen and heals.
    If you pug; build a DH, then if needed switch to FB, or build harrier directly if you want a SUPPORT FB.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Been established by who ? Just try by yourself.

    I did the berserker FB ; but the healing mantra can be very very lame when healing skill needed; and the quickness duration can be a bit short because of the radius of mantras and people not close to you....*and alacrity needed. Diviner Ren + berserker FB is a power compo for "uber" players who know each other, not for random players, nor for all fractals. Vipere still give more DPS; of course this is less "bursty" but burning dmg rise fast enough.
    Harrier support FB is a very good package in fractals : oc perma quickness, stab + aegis spam, resistance and condicleanse, wall etc, and very very strong regen and heals.
    If you pug; build a DH, then if needed switch to FB, or build harrier directly if you want a SUPPORT FB.

    Renegade kalla elite heals a lot. Did that comp in pugs today and it worked. Just switched to healer for mama and siax. It has better sustain in all the fractals compared to chrono, warr + triple dps. It just lacks blink + double portal and high duration stealth which is huge in some fractals.
    Viper Fb is basically only better in trash groups with really long phases.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

    Druid is not in a great place imo as a healer and is easily replaced by a soulbeast.

    You would have soulbeast, chrono, harrier fb, bs war, then whatever DPS you want, usually a dragonhunter because break bars are totally busted for burst power specs.

    It's a complete carry comp and does the fractals in your average group much quicker.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

    Druid is not in a great place imo as a healer and is easily replaced by a soulbeast.

    You would have soulbeast, chrono, harrier fb, bs war, then whatever DPS you want, usually a dragonhunter because break bars are totally busted for burst power specs.

    It's a complete carry comp and does the fractals in your average group much quicker.

    On EU its way easier to find a harrier renegade and a berserker+pack runes firebrand than the reverse. Trying to force a chrono into that comp lowers its value a lot, you either replace kalla elite and more cc with SoI that you dont need in fractals, or blocks, superior dps and signet share with SoI that you dont need.
    Might is something a boonchrono doesnt supply at all anymore, however, if bs has to provide all 25 mightstacks then he needs strength runes (yes, we tested this), lowering bs dps quite a bit.

    Why exactly do you want to force a boonchrono in there? Because of pulls? FB GS5 + Tome1 skill3 work nicely, renegade can help out with axe5, but its not even necessary.
    Or is it because of skips? Quite a lot skips a weaver can do as well. Or a daredevil. Or a power chrono

    As for 1-healer pug t4+cms runs this is what we have had best results on:

    • 1 Harrier renegade
    • 1 Power Firebrand with Pack Runes
    • 1 Power Bannerwarrior PS
    • 2 power DPS

    Boon remove is an issue, because if you force bannerwarrior to play a tactics spellbreaker build, thats quite a dps loss. However, theres several dps builds that you can run on boon-heavy instability days. Holosmith with mines, daredevil with trickery, power chrono. For "unproblematic" fractals with boons your renegade can just play mallyx instead of ventari. It reduces kalla uptime, but its an easy solution.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

    Druid is not in a great place imo as a healer and is easily replaced by a soulbeast.

    You would have soulbeast, chrono, harrier fb, bs war, then whatever DPS you want, usually a dragonhunter because break bars are totally busted for burst power specs.

    It's a complete carry comp and does the fractals in your average group much quicker.

    On EU its way easier to find a harrier renegade and a berserker+pack runes firebrand than the reverse. Trying to force a chrono into that comp lowers its value a lot, you either replace kalla elite and more cc with SoI that you dont need in fractals, or blocks, superior dps and signet share with SoI that you dont need.
    Might is something a boonchrono doesnt supply at all anymore, however, if bs has to provide all 25 mightstacks then he needs strength runes (yes, we tested this), lowering bs dps quite a bit.

    Why exactly do you want to force a boonchrono in there? Because of pulls? FB GS5 + Tome1 skill3 work nicely, renegade can help out with axe5, but its not even necessary.
    Or is it because of skips? Quite a lot skips a weaver can do as well. Or a daredevil. Or a power chrono

    As for 1-healer pug t4+cms runs this is what we have had best results on:

    • 1 Harrier renegade
    • 1 Power Firebrand with Pack Runes
    • 1 Power Bannerwarrior PS
    • 2 power DPS

    Boon remove is an issue, because if you force bannerwarrior to play a tactics spellbreaker build, thats quite a dps loss. However, theres several dps builds that you can run on boon-heavy instability days. Holosmith with mines, daredevil with trickery, power chrono. For "unproblematic" fractals with boons your renegade can just play mallyx instead of ventari. It reduces kalla uptime, but its an easy solution.

    I think Zenith was merely applying the possibility of getting a harrier Renegade versus a harrier Firebrand from a PUG perspective.

    While Firebrand+chrono might be lacking in synergy. It still works nicely and if you can find someone to cover for the lacking might, it's good enough. Obviously there are stronger compositions. Harrier renegade and firebrand are the ideal pick. Just if you can't get those 2, the second best would probably be harrier Firebrand and chrono (have the chrono remove some boon duration and replace quickness skills for damage).

  • stone cold.8609stone cold.8609 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    Thank you all for the information!

    Yasi, US based T4 LFGs are starting to ask for healing renegades and firebrands now as well and I'm starting to see comps forming similar to what you suggested. I think you may be on to something here. Its basically the old meta comp with healing renegade/hybrid support firebrand replacing the old healing druid/support chrono. I think this has a good chance of catching on with PUGs since 3 of the 5 roles are pretty much the same as before.

    The one time I've had a renegade healer in my group and I brought a power firebrand build with pack runes, it went very smoothly. Not a very large sample size and requires more testing I know. I have to say, I like playing power firebrand much more than the regular DPS DH build which is a huge plus for me personally.

    Any other thoughts?

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    So far we havent had problems finding one. Most have no clue what to do yet, and it shows. But after some explanations its fine, its after all not that difficult. Power firebrands are more difficult to find, especially ones that realize they have to supply some might via scepter symbol, pull with GS5+Tome1 and have a reflect on tome3.
    Honestly, considering how long I see people searching for chronos, its really better to go with fb+ren.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAW3OnsAjFBDGCBkCjF+BbPj+RPpWFgw1EALAkeKCA-jxhXQBAY/hQ9EAonuB/p+juuIAIU5XDVCSKA/GZB-e

    This is pretty much what I have settled on for Fractals (daily CM's+T4) as base build.
    It provides perma 25 Might, Fury, Quickness, Protection and Swiftness with very high uptime of everything else, aside from only Minor Resistance and Vigor, and obviously no Alacrity.
    It also provides pretty decent CC with Bane, Shield 5, Tome of Justice and Axe 3.
    Bane Signet also provides a Power Increase for the Party with Radiance, which is also supplying enough Crit chance to reliably proc Empowering Might.

    For Fractals, I usually switch out some Harrier pieces for Magi, due to free boon duration from the potions, for more Healing and Crit Chance.

    If you run with a Chrono instead of Renegade, you can switch out Stalwart Speed and or Liberator's Vow for whatever you prefer, I usually go with Weighty Terms lately, for more Aegis and Stab spam, as well as covering might slightly better if someone misses a Mantra, but Legendary Lore is a good pick as well if you feel like you need the extra Prot and Regen.

    For the last utility I usually run Bow of Truth, just because it can carry through really messy phases better than anything else I've found, but Hold the Line and Stand your Ground etc. also have a place, especially when you don't need to carry pugs.

    Also made a power and condi Quickbrand, but the support Renegades I have found so far struggled extremely to keep the party alive, probably due to not knowing what they are doing though. So I'm generally on support duty and sticking to this build.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    more easest ways make set:
    if support - ministrel + water runes till 100% boon duration wiht pots and and boons capped take magi
    if condi dps more easy change stats - buy on TP Intact Mosaic, this is Grieving (+Power, +Condition Damage, +Ferocity, +Precision) stat combo and bring expertise from runes and sigls.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    I saw less ren (DPS or healsupport) than I saw FB.
    IMO you'll be more useful in harrier FB alone or with a chrono or druid than a Ren or a Berserker FB. Because it works fin in more compos than ren, because quickness is upper and you have more healing, utilities and boons. In a good day you'll find a harrier ren, then you'll be 2 healers, won't really change of chrono+druid's DPS, just way more healing and boons. Still you can swap armor between your 2 classes, or everybody have a berserker set somewhere.

  • The problem(s) with FB+ Rev is who of the 2 should be healer ? I would say FB because he is a worse dps and better at healing and a lot more boons.
    Until the news stats came there were no real alternative Rev became automatically a healer too( with harrier stats)

    Rev and chrono should run both diviner stats now . There are also the problem Rev is incredible raw to see in pve

    FB can work with both with chrono the down side is you need to change a mantra to might and the amount of fury is a bit low.

    A support rev on the other side can't really work with a druid you get an insane amount of might but no quickness

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭

    No one support class needed diviner stats if we talk about fractals, especialy fb. Support should have lot of toghnees, sometimes vitality and very stable stand on ground, never be in downstate, and ready include take other from downstate in rotation. So harrier is not optimal choose too.

    What about raids - yes some setup can be uses deviner, but that don't bring somethig incredably in total count.

    Bring for rev diviner - make him totally depend to have fb sup in party - bad idea too.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    The problem(s) with FB+ Rev is who of the 2 should be healer ? I would say FB because he is a worse dps and better at healing and a lot more boons.
    Until the news stats came there were no real alternative Rev became automatically a healer too( with harrier stats)

    Depends on who has to sacrifice more to provide permanent alacrity (renegade) or quickness (firebrand). Not sure on how much boon duration is needed on renegade, but firebrand can do with very little to upkeep perma quickness.

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    A support rev on the other side can't really work with a druid you get an insane amount of might but no quickness

    That's the main difference. Quickness is more useful overall compared to alacrity if a group has to chose between both. That and the passive might from most classes makes fury more valuable over 25 might. Plus the remaining boons of support FB.

    @lare.5129 said:
    No one support class needed diviner stats if we talk about fractals, especialy fb. Support should have lot of toghnees

    Please no, unless you are absolutely new to the game and are eating attacks left and right, there is no reason to take toughness unless for tanking purposes (which is raids). Maybe a bit vitality on support Firebrand since you are over-capping boon duration a lot with full harrier if you want to feel slightly safer and are inexperienced. Even that is not needed though, survival with 11.5k base hit points is more than doable.

    Unless you want to draw the majority of attention on yourself (worked back in vanilla as guardian too), in that case get some toughness and get ready to deal with 70-80% of all fractal enemies focusing you.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    No one support class needed diviner stats if we talk about fractals, especialy fb. Support should have lot of toghnees, sometimes vitality and very stable stand on ground, never be in downstate, and ready include take other from downstate in rotation. So harrier is not optimal choose too.

    What about raids - yes some setup can be uses deviner, but that don't bring somethig incredably in total count.

    Bring for rev diviner - make him totally depend to have fb sup in party - bad idea too.

    Nobody needs toughness in fractals. You dont even need a healer most of the time with kalla spirit. FB needs the boon duration for protection + regen uptime.
    Also chrono needs a lot of boon duration solo so it kind of needs diviners in fractals if you dont want to waste stats with commanders.

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    The problem(s) with FB+ Rev is who of the 2 should be healer ? I would say FB because he is a worse dps and better at healing and a lot more boons.
    Until the news stats came there were no real alternative Rev became automatically a healer too( with harrier stats)

    Rev and chrono should run both diviner stats now . There are also the problem Rev is incredible raw to see in pve

    FB can work with both with chrono the down side is you need to change a mantra to might and the amount of fury is a bit low.

    A support rev on the other side can't really work with a druid you get an insane amount of might but no quickness

    Power or even condi FB are far superior dps to rene. Revenant has still huge energy problems even after 4 years. You are either mediocre dps and have no support or good support and kitten dps. Especially alacrity rene since it needs 78% boon duration for perma alacrity.
    Also Fb has a lot of burst while rene has almost none. Fractals were designed without a healer in mind. You really don't need a healer for most of the fractals. In fact playing fb + diviner rene feels like playing with a pug druid because kalla elite adds so much heal without investing in any healing power. It will pretty much die completely if they ever nerf it though. Power revenant needs buffs in pve. Or chrono needs dps nerfs. Rene provides only alacrity + lifesteal and can get outdamaged by a boonchrono on some fights. Removing any boon duration scaling from SOI was a huge mistake.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Please no, unless you are absolutely new to the game and are eating attacks left and right, there is no reason to take toughness unless for tanking purposes (which is raids). Maybe a bit vitality on support Firebrand since you are over-capping boon duration a lot with full harrier if you want to feel slightly safer and are inexperienced. Even that is not needed though, survival with 11.5k base hit points is more than doable.

    no matter how you a experienced, we talking about common role for support, and if we not go with magic 500kp party we should be ready that half party will be eat everything, and donwstate will be part of rotation. So now you choose: leave that party, or asap ress and during that eat too.

    Unless you want to draw the majority of attention on yourself (worked back in vanilla as guardian too), in that case get some toughness and get ready to deal with 70-80% of all fractal enemies focusing you.

    And this is good, and one of profit. Better set agro on bunker-heal, because zerk holo or thief, especialy if not pro skilled don't have big survive possibilities. Who if not you will be target??

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Removing any boon duration scaling from SOI was a huge mistake.

    I am playing chrno long time too, and think that soi changes don't break something totaly. Dont't like soi and think that it nerfed ? - so remove it at all from utils bar. How I understand main idea of that change was possibilitie use other utils configuration, and no any mistake - idea implemented. As fb you can choose many variaty from skills, and this is ok !

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Please no, unless you are absolutely new to the game and are eating attacks left and right, there is no reason to take toughness unless for tanking purposes (which is raids). Maybe a bit vitality on support Firebrand since you are over-capping boon duration a lot with full harrier if you want to feel slightly safer and are inexperienced. Even that is not needed though, survival with 11.5k base hit points is more than doable.

    no matter how you a experienced, we talking about common role for support, and if we not go with magic 500kp party we should be ready that half party will be eat everything, and donwstate will be part of rotation. So now you choose: leave that party, or asap ress and during that eat too.

    While I am critical of PUG groups, sorry but with this kind of performance I will leave the group (unless it's guildies). If my healing output on a harrier Firebrand is not good enough to keep people alive in T4 fractals, the people in group need to go back to T2 or T3 and are way out of their league in T4.

    At the same time, every point invested in toughness is a point not going to healing, boon duration or power. That's 2/3rds of stats wasted on a support build.

  • FB already get 250 toughness from quickness.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Removing any boon duration scaling from SOI was a huge mistake.

    I am playing chrno long time too, and think that soi changes don't break something totaly. Dont't like soi and think that it nerfed ? - so remove it at all from utils bar. How I understand main idea of that change was possibilitie use other utils configuration, and no any mistake - idea implemented. As fb you can choose many variaty from skills, and this is ok !

    It allows chronos to run almost no boon duration gear in raids and low boon duration in fractals while providing alacrity + quickness. They have way too high dps that way. Renegade for example needs crazy high boon duration just for alacrity and can get outdamaged by a boon chrono on some fractal bosses.
    Boon chronos take the double phantasm strike trait now which is just way too strong on a support role.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    While I am critical of PUG groups, sorry but with this kind of performance I will leave the group

    so don't forget to keep this mind in any comment about builds and stats, especial from support side

    At the same time, every point invested in toughness is a point not going to healing, boon duration or power. That's 2/3rds of stats wasted on a support build.

    power without cap precision and ferosity also don't bring to you insane profit. If you will up dps from 2k to 4k and give some additional change to trigger yourself in downstate mostly with rule that is you die - die all team, if dps - you bring he back , or continue survive 4/5

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    While I am critical of PUG groups, sorry but with this kind of performance I will leave the group

    so don't forget to keep this mind in any comment about builds and stats, especial from support side

    At the same time, every point invested in toughness is a point not going to healing, boon duration or power. That's 2/3rds of stats wasted on a support build.

    power without cap precision and ferosity also don't bring to you insane profit. If you will up dps from 2k to 4k and give some additional change to trigger yourself in downstate mostly with rule that is you die - die all team, if dps - you bring he back , or continue survive 4/5

    Except power is a must take, since I can't go 2 stats on ascended gear.

    I said 2/3rds loss specifically because of power being useless.

  • vaxjani.9073vaxjani.9073 Member ✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    As for 1-healer pug t4+cms runs this is what we have had best results on:

    • 1 Harrier renegade
    • 1 Power Firebrand with Pack Runes
    • 1 Power Bannerwarrior PS
    • 2 power DPS

    Boon remove is an issue, because if you force bannerwarrior to play a tactics spellbreaker build, thats quite a dps loss. However, theres several dps builds that you can run on boon-heavy instability days. Holosmith with mines, daredevil with trickery, power chrono. For "unproblematic" fractals with boons your renegade can just play mallyx instead of ventari. It reduces kalla uptime, but its an easy solution.

    I would personally change the renegade to Harrier + Zealot with dev, salvation + Pack Runes. It heals enough already without Monk Runes and Pack also gives the same boon duration. Full Harrier is an overkill (you only need full armor + earrings with Potent Lucent Oil and Concentration sigil with 170 agony), and with the rest Zealot + Pack you can reach 100% crit chance. This also means your FB can take Scholar Runes.

    Also Tactics Spb isnt that much of a dps loss. Most Spb i see play it with Strength and its fine but it is harder to play and worse in adapting (would only recommend in really fast kills where you only have to remove boons 1 per phase).
    I personally play it with Discipline, playing with Spb 1-1-1 and Break Enchantments. It plays literally the same as Core Warrior. When the boons pop up you just remove them with the utility. This means you dont have to swap to your second weapon set and be stuck on it for 10s, you only have to swap for breakbars (you can use mace instead of dagger for CC as it gives more breakbar damage). This is especially good for MAMA where you have to CC and remove boons from the adds quickly while still being able to swap back to Axe for dps on the boss after CCs.
    And its damage is still pretty close to core warrior on every encounter (around 1k less on average).

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    You don't need PS with Ren. F2 gives you 15 mights (~20 sec or more, I don't remember) every 8sec with alacrity; FB can pre-buff mights too before engaging.
    Tactics ? Even you're all power berserker/diviner I don't know if it is worth the DPS sacrifice to play Empower Allies in 5man group *Unless you play war of course, and not SpB.

    After that, IMO there is not "one" optimal comp.
    I mean of course, ren+fb+war+soulbeast+dps is strong. Support FB+war+3DPS is worth too. Chrono+War+3DPS still work good too.
    But with all the new instabilities and the new fractal I 've also seen good scourge actually doing there job : epidemic, boon removal etc, on contrary I saw more and more thiefs and weavers be OS in the first seconds because of mobs with 25 might fury quickness or 300%dmg and weaver/thief with-30%hp (=8k HP) or birds focusing them. I've also seen this week groups looking for 2 healers/support, like Druid + FB, and no joke it was better than 3 years of chrono+druid.

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    @lare.5129 said:
    No one support class needed diviner stats if we talk about fractals, especialy fb. Support should have lot of toghnees, sometimes vitality and very stable stand on ground, never be in downstate, and ready include take other from downstate in rotation. So harrier is not optimal choose too.

    What about raids - yes some setup can be uses deviner, but that don't bring somethig incredably in total count.

    Bring for rev diviner - make him totally depend to have fb sup in party - bad idea too.

    Its more the opposite way around diviner stats are far superior for support hybrid built which we use in fractals. Same support with more dps it is very simple . In raids chrono were tanks too so they use stats whit toughness which diviner stats don't have. And yes I know you can't crit with this gear .

    But I also think looking in wvw into those stats for support rev there is a idea .

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    The problem(s) with FB+ Rev is who of the 2 should be healer ? I would say FB because he is a worse dps and better at healing and a lot more boons.
    Until the news stats came there were no real alternative Rev became automatically a healer too( with harrier stats)

    Rev and chrono should run both diviner stats now . There are also the problem Rev is incredible raw to see in pve

    FB can work with both with chrono the down side is you need to change a mantra to might and the amount of fury is a bit low.

    A support rev on the other side can't really work with a druid you get an insane amount of might but no quickness

    Power or even condi FB are far superior dps to rene. Revenant has still huge energy problems even after 4 years. You are either mediocre dps and have no support or good support and kitten dps. Especially alacrity rene since it needs 78% boon duration for perma alacrity.
    Also Fb has a lot of burst while rene has almost none. Fractals were designed without a healer in mind. You really don't need a healer for most of the fractals. In fact playing fb + diviner rene feels like playing with a pug druid because kalla elite adds so much heal without investing in any healing power. It will pretty much die completely if they ever nerf it though. Power revenant needs buffs in pve. Or chrono needs dps nerfs. Rene provides only alacrity + lifesteal and can get outdamaged by a boonchrono on some fights. Removing any boon duration scaling from SOI was a huge mistake.

    Energy problem is maybe a reason but you must compare it to the old meta how dmg can you do with a diviner + berserker gear on support rev 3-5k ?(under realistic conditions) Then it is enough . That chrono can outperform rev with the same stats is properly true. I think its a bit of personal taste for me as an ele more boons means more dmg also with quickness Firebrand you don't have all the other perks .

    Yes SoI is stupid how it works not only doesn't it work properly with the type of content we have it also has an insane exploitable character now like a lot of dps chrono in the group with Soi (or just 1 for fractals) and pre stacking.

    About the energy problem do the mistlocks singularities rest the amount of energy ? (They should)
    I also know about the energy problems I have a condi rev when you use you weapons skills to the fullest you have just enough energy per rota for 1-2 class skills. Which is if you have to use them all a bit low. Maybe they could change it so that using some class skills will give you back 90% of the energy.

    Edit:
    OH someone already done making a build : https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Renegade_-Boon_Support_Power_DPS(Fractal)

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not sure toughness in fractals draws aggro. If someone can link me any source of this.
    I know several bosses will aggro on downed. I know almost for sure Ensolyss in CM often goes after low HP player.
    But I never seen a boss or mob to aggro on toughness, given I had full magi druids in party.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    The problem(s) with FB+ Rev is who of the 2 should be healer ? I would say FB because he is a worse dps and better at healing and a lot more boons.
    Until the news stats came there were no real alternative Rev became automatically a healer too( with harrier stats)

    Rev and chrono should run both diviner stats now . There are also the problem Rev is incredible raw to see in pve

    FB can work with both with chrono the down side is you need to change a mantra to might and the amount of fury is a bit low.

    A support rev on the other side can't really work with a druid you get an insane amount of might but no quickness

    FB is both the superior hybrid DPS (Quickbrand) as well as Healer/support (Harrier).

    Alacrigade is about ~23k DPS, Power Quickbrand is ~25k DPS and Condi Quickbrand ~29k DPS.

    But since FB is also the better Healer/Boon Support imo, it doesn't really matter.
    If you want a safer comp, run support FB and Alacrigade, if you want slightly more DPS, run support Renegade and Quickbrand.

    FB can run Sword, or preferably Axe for pulls/cc for perma Fury.
    Also, Support FB can solo Maintain 25 Might as well, so yea, sup FB also works well with a Chrono.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2019

    I know that my main problem is what I should write in the LFG when I search a group now ?^^
    something like : T4 dailies +rec | P+F| Healer , Support , BS , DPS (I'm already in it as dps)

    The problem is there are some people who recently start to run necro as healer so this isn't really clear

    Next try : T4 dailies +rec | P+F| Druid/FB , Support , BS , DPS

    Now someone could think I'm looking for a quickness firebrand argha

    Next try : T4 dailies +rec | P+F| (Heal : Druid/FB) , Support , BS , DPS

    Now chrono and rev could be felt left out because I don't name call them

    Next try : T4 's +rec | P+F| (Heal : Druid/FB) , (Support: Chrono/Rev) , BS , DPS

    Now I need at least make pointer that I need a FB when I got a Rev

    Next try : T4 's+rec| P+F| (Heal : Druid/FB) , (Support: Chrono/Rev*) , BS , DPS

    So now I want to see how someone squeeze EXP or CM and KPs in without getting into the next row^^ (which I'm believe I'm already in testing after this)

    EDIT : okay way too long

    Next try : T4 's+rec|P+F|(H:Druid/FB),(S:Chrono/Rev*),BS,DPS ..works kinda

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    I know that my main problem is what I should write in the LFG when I search a group now ?^^
    something like : T4 dailies +rec | P+F| Healer , Support , BS , DPS (I'm already in it as dps)

    The problem is there are some people who recently start to run necro as healer so this isn't really clear

    Next try : T4 dailies +rec | P+F| Druid/FB , Support , BS , DPS

    Now someone could think I'm looking for a quickness firebrand argha

    Next try : T4 dailies +rec | P+F| (Heal : Druid/FB) , Support , BS , DPS

    Now chrono and rev could be felt left out because I don't name call them

    Next try : T4 's +rec | P+F| (Heal : Druid/FB) , (Support: Chrono/Rev) , BS , DPS

    Now I need at least make pointer that I need a FB when I got a Rev

    Next try : T4 's+rec| P+F| (Heal : Druid/FB) , (Support: Chrono/Rev*) , BS , DPS

    So now I want to see how someone squeeze EXP or CM and KPs in without getting into the next row^^ (which I'm believe I'm already in testing after this)

    EDIT : okay way too long

    Next try : T4 's+rec|P+F|(H:Druid/FB),(S:Chrono/Rev*),BS,DPS ..works kinda

    Try T4s +recs LF babysitter+DPS, works like a charm for me but I don't wait 20-30 minutes for perfect composition

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    You don't need PS with Ren. F2 gives you 15 mights (~20 sec or more, I don't remember) every 8sec with alacrity; FB can pre-buff mights too before engaging.
    Tactics ? Even you're all power berserker/diviner I don't know if it is worth the DPS sacrifice to play Empower Allies in 5man group *Unless you play war of course, and not SpB.

    Thats where you are quite wrong. Energy constraints (and radius) make might buffing on renegade a farce. The shorter the fight, the less of a problem it is ofc. But I can tell you from experience that renegade might stack is very spotty and it drops to zero when you need it most... due to the renegade running out of energy and having to prioritize between alacrity, kalla elite and might. You'd have to drop AP for invigoration, which is quite a dps loss in fractals... not to mention you will still run out of energy.
    Effectively its more like 10 might upkeep, and thats only when everything works out nicely. If you have to cc on renegade, then you are mostly down to around 8. If you have to heal a lot - which is rather normal in pug grps - then you are down to basically 0.
    Core bannerwarrior is already meta, and for longer fights you can just bring dumplings and precast elite banner at singularity. Together with the might from firebrand (scepter) and some might from renegade you are at 25 without really loosing anything... this whole thing becomes an issue if you want to use spellbreaker for boon remove... and only then. But theres other options for that.

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    After that, IMO there is not "one" optimal comp.
    I mean of course, ren+fb+war+soulbeast+dps is strong. Support FB+war+3DPS is worth too. Chrono+War+3DPS still work good too.
    But with all the new instabilities and the new fractal I 've also seen good scourge actually doing there job : epidemic, boon removal etc, on contrary I saw more and more thiefs and weavers be OS in the first seconds because of mobs with 25 might fury quickness or 300%dmg and weaver/thief with-30%hp (=8k HP) or birds focusing them. I've also seen this week groups looking for 2 healers/support, like Druid + FB, and no joke it was better than 3 years of chrono+druid.

    No, Im sorry. But Im not talking about t4 pug groups here. Im talking about a meta comp for t4+CMs that works with players put together from lfg. Your scourge "might" have done a good job, but I can tell you right away, even a holosmith can do the same and do more boss dps. In terms of aoe boon remove, domi dps chrono is unsurpassed and for single target mallyx on renegade is better than anything Ive seen.
    And ofc fb is better. FB has instant casts and you "only" have to stack properly. No difficult rotation. No placing wells perfectly. No CS.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    I know that my main problem is what I should write in the LFG when I search a group now ?^^
    something like : T4 dailies +rec | P+F| Healer , Support , BS , DPS (I'm already in it as dps)

    The problem is there are some people who recently start to run necro as healer so this isn't really clear

    Next try : T4 dailies +rec | P+F| Druid/FB , Support , BS , DPS

    Now someone could think I'm looking for a quickness firebrand argha

    Next try : T4 dailies +rec | P+F| (Heal : Druid/FB) , Support , BS , DPS

    Now chrono and rev could be felt left out because I don't name call them

    Next try : T4 's +rec | P+F| (Heal : Druid/FB) , (Support: Chrono/Rev) , BS , DPS

    Now I need at least make pointer that I need a FB when I got a Rev

    Next try : T4 's+rec| P+F| (Heal : Druid/FB) , (Support: Chrono/Rev*) , BS , DPS

    So now I want to see how someone squeeze EXP or CM and KPs in without getting into the next row^^ (which I'm believe I'm already in testing after this)

    EDIT : okay way too long

    Next try : T4 's+rec|P+F|(H:Druid/FB),(S:Chrono/Rev*),BS,DPS ..works kinda

    On t4s you just have to make sure you have might, protection, quickness, fury. Boon remove on days with boon instabilities. Cleave for fractals with lots of adds (cliffside, underground etc.). Dont overcomplicate things, its only t4 without CMs.

    For t4+CMs, you have to be more specific. But ofc, you can search for fb, harrier renegade, bannerPS and boonremove (if necessary).

    Apropos boonremove. On Vengeance instability you dont really need to bother with it atm, just pull adds nicely and they die before doing much harm.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    The problem(s) with FB+ Rev is who of the 2 should be healer ? I would say FB because he is a worse dps and better at healing and a lot more boons.
    Until the news stats came there were no real alternative Rev became automatically a healer too( with harrier stats)

    Rev and chrono should run both diviner stats now . There are also the problem Rev is incredible raw to see in pve

    FB can work with both with chrono the down side is you need to change a mantra to might and the amount of fury is a bit low.

    A support rev on the other side can't really work with a druid you get an insane amount of might but no quickness

    FB is both the superior hybrid DPS (Quickbrand) as well as Healer/support (Harrier).

    Alacrigade is about ~23k DPS, Power Quickbrand is ~25k DPS and Condi Quickbrand ~29k DPS.

    But since FB is also the better Healer/Boon Support imo, it doesn't really matter.
    If you want a safer comp, run support FB and Alacrigade, if you want slightly more DPS, run support Renegade and Quickbrand.

    FB can run Sword, or preferably Axe for pulls/cc for perma Fury.
    Also, Support FB can solo Maintain 25 Might as well, so yea, sup FB also works well with a Chrono.

    What people tend to forget is that kalla elite uptime is very important to determine the "real" dmg of div renegade. You can say in fractals 10% uptime are about 1k per player, thats a really rough estimation, so you get an idea of it. A harrier renegade usually has a higher kalla elite uptime if things run smoothly, a diviner renegade has better uptime when things go down the drain.

    I contest btw that fb is the better healer. A harrier renegade can heal through agony. A fb cant. A power fb can still put out enough aegis to comfortably lazily ignore mechanics, a harrier renegade can bring ventari tablet projectile hate.

    Might on fb is a lot like might on renegade. It looks nice on paper, but in reality, you have to sacrifice quite a bit to reach and then maintain those 25. And tbh, why even bother with it? Core bannerwarrior is meta. He already runs the traits for it. At the most you have to bring dumplings instead of the expensive food that shall not be named. Shifting might onto bannerwarrior also has the added benefit that you are totally flexible. You can run div or harrier renegade, paired with heal or berserker fb. You can run 2 healer, 1 healer or 0 healer, whatever you find first.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    The problem(s) with FB+ Rev is who of the 2 should be healer ? I would say FB because he is a worse dps and better at healing and a lot more boons.
    Until the news stats came there were no real alternative Rev became automatically a healer too( with harrier stats)

    Rev and chrono should run both diviner stats now . There are also the problem Rev is incredible raw to see in pve

    FB can work with both with chrono the down side is you need to change a mantra to might and the amount of fury is a bit low.

    A support rev on the other side can't really work with a druid you get an insane amount of might but no quickness

    FB is both the superior hybrid DPS (Quickbrand) as well as Healer/support (Harrier).

    Alacrigade is about ~23k DPS, Power Quickbrand is ~25k DPS and Condi Quickbrand ~29k DPS.

    But since FB is also the better Healer/Boon Support imo, it doesn't really matter.
    If you want a safer comp, run support FB and Alacrigade, if you want slightly more DPS, run support Renegade and Quickbrand.

    FB can run Sword, or preferably Axe for pulls/cc for perma Fury.
    Also, Support FB can solo Maintain 25 Might as well, so yea, sup FB also works well with a Chrono.

    What people tend to forget is that kalla elite uptime is very important to determine the "real" dmg of div renegade. You can say in fractals 10% uptime are about 1k per player, thats a really rough estimation, so you get an idea of it. A harrier renegade usually has a higher kalla elite uptime if things run smoothly, a diviner renegade has better uptime when things go down the drain.

    I contest btw that fb is the better healer. A harrier renegade can heal through agony. A fb cant. A power fb can still put out enough aegis to comfortably lazily ignore mechanics, a harrier renegade can bring ventari tablet projectile hate.

    Might on fb is a lot like might on renegade. It looks nice on paper, but in reality, you have to sacrifice quite a bit to reach and then maintain those 25. And tbh, why even bother with it? Core bannerwarrior is meta. He already runs the traits for it. At the most you have to bring dumplings instead of the expensive food that shall not be named. Shifting might onto bannerwarrior also has the added benefit that you are totally flexible. You can run div or harrier renegade, paired with heal or berserker fb. You can run 2 healer, 1 healer or 0 healer, whatever you find first.

    I've been running support FB almost everyday in CM's + T4 since even before the patch, so about 3 months now, so when I say I can maintain 25 Might better and more consistent than even a Druid, it's not only "on paper", and I don't really feel like I have to sacrifice much for it.

    The runs are still much smoother than all the ones I tried with a heal Renegade, due to more consistent heals, higher burst heals when needed and better boon support.

    Playing without full Support FB is kind of painful to me now, as the Stab spam with the elite Mantra etc. preventing all the little knockbacks and dazes in Fractals makes it just so much more enjoyable to me.
    Providing every boon aside from Alacrity, very frequent Stability and Aegis as well as Projectile hate and very high sustained healing as well as massive burst healing allows you to carry like nothing else I've seen.

    There is ofc a possibility that most support Renegades I've played with just haven't been all that good and that it indeed can carry equally hard as a support FB, but it's very hard to find something I can't outheal as FB, even Agony (old SA) + Poison.
    The only limit I have found so far was loads of trash with Enraged and with Sugar rush together with Boon Overload, Frailty or Outflanked with lot's of adds.
    But even then I can still switch out Radiance for Virtues and heal even more.

    In the about 8 runs I tried with a support Renegade, I had more wipes than in over 100 runs with Support FB (which makes wiping almost impossible, aside from mechanical group wipes etc).

    Not saying I don't like both comp's though, not least of all since I appreciate the variety of playing Quickbrand from time to time.

    As for writing LFG's, I can see how it might be a bit confusing what to look for atm.
    I generally look for Chrono/Rene, BS, 2DPS, since I can just adjust what I will be playing depending on what joins, but if you are going in as DPS, that obviously doesn't work.
    If you want to keep it flexible, looking for Support/Hybrid FB/Ren (or Heal Ren/FB and Quickbrand/Alacrigade) could work, even if it's still somewhat clunky. Then whatever support or hybrid joins first, determines what you are looking for in the other slot.

    That said, I actually really don't like this be all end all composition mentality this community has, and gladly take some LFG confusion if it means some variety in my daily runs.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Renegade has no burst dps, fire brand does have burst. Hence if anything the renegade should heal. As a healer renegade can still increase damage through cc/Kalla elite.

    However for most groups you will find out that you dont need a healer. With the support renegade and FB bring even on full dps.

  • @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not sure toughness in fractals draws aggro. If someone can link me any source of this.
    I know several bosses will aggro on downed. I know almost for sure Ensolyss in CM often goes after low HP player.
    But I never seen a boss or mob to aggro on toughness, given I had full magi druids in party.

    My experience of being a fully minstrel FB can prove it, usually when I solo support T4 pug. Like in molten boss fractal, dredge usually comes after me first (or in TO with these sunspear ), but to be honest, that make things easier for everyone because I'm the one who control the position of these mobs( or small boss) while maintain all boons( well just no alacrity) and give aegis for teammate to block critical or aoe strike. Plus my healing effect are way higher than other hybrid build.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

    Druid is not in a great place imo as a healer and is easily replaced by a soulbeast.

    You would have soulbeast, chrono, harrier fb, bs war, then whatever DPS you want, usually a dragonhunter because break bars are totally busted for burst power specs.

    It's a complete carry comp and does the fractals in your average group much quicker.

    On EU its way easier to find a harrier renegade and a berserker+pack runes firebrand than the reverse. Trying to force a chrono into that comp lowers its value a lot, you either replace kalla elite and more cc with SoI that you dont need in fractals, or blocks, superior dps and signet share with SoI that you dont need.
    Might is something a boonchrono doesnt supply at all anymore, however, if bs has to provide all 25 mightstacks then he needs strength runes (yes, we tested this), lowering bs dps quite a bit.

    Why exactly do you want to force a boonchrono in there? Because of pulls? FB GS5 + Tome1 skill3 work nicely, renegade can help out with axe5, but its not even necessary.
    Or is it because of skips? Quite a lot skips a weaver can do as well. Or a daredevil. Or a power chrono

    As for 1-healer pug t4+cms runs this is what we have had best results on:

    • 1 Harrier renegade
    • 1 Power Firebrand with Pack Runes
    • 1 Power Bannerwarrior PS
    • 2 power DPS

    Boon remove is an issue, because if you force bannerwarrior to play a tactics spellbreaker build, thats quite a dps loss. However, theres several dps builds that you can run on boon-heavy instability days. Holosmith with mines, daredevil with trickery, power chrono. For "unproblematic" fractals with boons your renegade can just play mallyx instead of ventari. It reduces kalla uptime, but its an easy solution.

    On NA the amount of times I have found a support rene in LFG in the past 2 months since I ask for healer and not specifically a druid is : A SINGLE TIME.

    It is truly a very niche spec so few people in NA play, I'd rather settle for a Harrier FB since the Harrier FB still serves as a useful healer alongside a chrono for alacrity with stability and aegis spam on top.

    Support renegade on its own provides....healing and Kalla (since if you don't find a quickbrand, you'll run a chrono anyways). But I'll take nearly perma stab for Skorvald, Artsariv, and MAMA any day over Kalla elite as it will in most realistic scenarios translate to far more DPS by allowing people to turret those hectic phases without getting pinballed around.

    I love my power chrono DPS above all, but if the team doesn't have a guardian of any kind I will always bring mine instead because I cannot stress how vital stability and aegis are for smooth burn phases, and renegade lacks that.

    And that's truly the problem, renegade is way more reliant on FB to be attractive to a comp than FB needs renegade to be attractive because guardian utility is crazy stupid.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2019

    You'll lose less to take SpB than take trickery in thief or a power chrono over an other DPS or mines over bomb or grenade kit.

    You'll lose less to NOT take PS war (because it means runes and/or food/sigil) than to take Lasting Legacy over RR if you play harrier Ren with Salvation (because you don't need RR at all with Ventari) in fractals. I don't know how you test you ren but I can assure you you can maintain perma alacrity perma 25 mights, and Soulcleave and the healing skill one when you swap to kalla.
    If you play diviner with Invocation, yes, you can't pass over RR and you can't maintain 25 mights alone, or you sacrifice the perma alacrity for the mights. Still you have FB, may you have weaver, holo to cap the 25.
    Stop Making PS war/SpB a thing, it is NOT needed *edit, in a Ren Healer comp.

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2019

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

    Druid is not in a great place imo as a healer and is easily replaced by a soulbeast.

    You would have soulbeast, chrono, harrier fb, bs war, then whatever DPS you want, usually a dragonhunter because break bars are totally busted for burst power specs.

    It's a complete carry comp and does the fractals in your average group much quicker.

    On EU its way easier to find a harrier renegade and a berserker+pack runes firebrand than the reverse. Trying to force a chrono into that comp lowers its value a lot, you either replace kalla elite and more cc with SoI that you dont need in fractals, or blocks, superior dps and signet share with SoI that you dont need.
    Might is something a boonchrono doesnt supply at all anymore, however, if bs has to provide all 25 mightstacks then he needs strength runes (yes, we tested this), lowering bs dps quite a bit.

    Why exactly do you want to force a boonchrono in there? Because of pulls? FB GS5 + Tome1 skill3 work nicely, renegade can help out with axe5, but its not even necessary.
    Or is it because of skips? Quite a lot skips a weaver can do as well. Or a daredevil. Or a power chrono

    As for 1-healer pug t4+cms runs this is what we have had best results on:

    • 1 Harrier renegade
    • 1 Power Firebrand with Pack Runes
    • 1 Power Bannerwarrior PS
    • 2 power DPS

    Boon remove is an issue, because if you force bannerwarrior to play a tactics spellbreaker build, thats quite a dps loss. However, theres several dps builds that you can run on boon-heavy instability days. Holosmith with mines, daredevil with trickery, power chrono. For "unproblematic" fractals with boons your renegade can just play mallyx instead of ventari. It reduces kalla uptime, but its an easy solution.

    On NA the amount of times I have found a support rene in LFG in the past 2 months since I ask for healer and not specifically a druid is : A SINGLE TIME.

    It is truly a very niche spec so few people in NA play, I'd rather settle for a Harrier FB since the Harrier FB still serves as a useful healer alongside a chrono for alacrity with stability and aegis spam on top.

    Support renegade on its own provides....healing and Kalla (since if you don't find a quickbrand, you'll run a chrono anyways). But I'll take nearly perma stab for Skorvald, Artsariv, and MAMA any day over Kalla elite as it will in most realistic scenarios translate to far more DPS by allowing people to turret those hectic phases without getting pinballed around.

    I love my power chrono DPS above all, but if the team doesn't have a guardian of any kind I will always bring mine instead because I cannot stress how vital stability and aegis are for smooth burn phases, and renegade lacks that.

    And that's truly the problem, renegade is way more reliant on FB to be attractive to a comp than FB needs renegade to be attractive because guardian utility is crazy stupid.

    This is so true. Gearing a quickbrand, power or condi is ez af. On power u need maximum 25 bd which is ez to get and on condi u can just slot fb runes and your done. Even in healing a few minstrel/harrier piece is all u need then u can just fill the rest with magi. Fb is also extremely potent in open world, metas, dungeons, soloing stuff giving you more value out of the builds.

    Renegade on the other hand.....u have to gear a preposterous amount of diviner just for alacrity while already not having the best dps. And it can only be effective with a buddy as alacrity by itself doesnt give much value. Gearing all that just for fractals and nothing else is an investment a lot of people, including myself, arent willing to make.And u would also need healing gear with full concentration if a group wants to run a healer which means even more investment.
    Atm out of all the different supports i feel renegade is probably the weakest link as u have to sacrifice too many stats just for alacrity and u require a buddy for quickness + supplementary boons (most of these usually come from fb). For me the worst thing is the energy factor. It just limits the potential of the build as most impacting skills u have require a big amount of energy leaving u very little freedom and versatility.For example Staff 5 is one of the strongest cc's in the game currently but consumes a kitten of energy, yet u are expected to use it in cc bars leaving u with simply simple aa's unless u can change legend. Is it indeed very niche.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

    Druid is not in a great place imo as a healer and is easily replaced by a soulbeast.

    You would have soulbeast, chrono, harrier fb, bs war, then whatever DPS you want, usually a dragonhunter because break bars are totally busted for burst power specs.

    It's a complete carry comp and does the fractals in your average group much quicker.

    On EU its way easier to find a harrier renegade and a berserker+pack runes firebrand than the reverse. Trying to force a chrono into that comp lowers its value a lot, you either replace kalla elite and more cc with SoI that you dont need in fractals, or blocks, superior dps and signet share with SoI that you dont need.
    Might is something a boonchrono doesnt supply at all anymore, however, if bs has to provide all 25 mightstacks then he needs strength runes (yes, we tested this), lowering bs dps quite a bit.

    Why exactly do you want to force a boonchrono in there? Because of pulls? FB GS5 + Tome1 skill3 work nicely, renegade can help out with axe5, but its not even necessary.
    Or is it because of skips? Quite a lot skips a weaver can do as well. Or a daredevil. Or a power chrono

    As for 1-healer pug t4+cms runs this is what we have had best results on:

    • 1 Harrier renegade
    • 1 Power Firebrand with Pack Runes
    • 1 Power Bannerwarrior PS
    • 2 power DPS

    Boon remove is an issue, because if you force bannerwarrior to play a tactics spellbreaker build, thats quite a dps loss. However, theres several dps builds that you can run on boon-heavy instability days. Holosmith with mines, daredevil with trickery, power chrono. For "unproblematic" fractals with boons your renegade can just play mallyx instead of ventari. It reduces kalla uptime, but its an easy solution.

    On NA the amount of times I have found a support rene in LFG in the past 2 months since I ask for healer and not specifically a druid is : A SINGLE TIME.

    It is truly a very niche spec so few people in NA play, I'd rather settle for a Harrier FB since the Harrier FB still serves as a useful healer alongside a chrono for alacrity with stability and aegis spam on top.

    Support renegade on its own provides....healing and Kalla (since if you don't find a quickbrand, you'll run a chrono anyways). But I'll take nearly perma stab for Skorvald, Artsariv, and MAMA any day over Kalla elite as it will in most realistic scenarios translate to far more DPS by allowing people to turret those hectic phases without getting pinballed around.

    I love my power chrono DPS above all, but if the team doesn't have a guardian of any kind I will always bring mine instead because I cannot stress how vital stability and aegis are for smooth burn phases, and renegade lacks that.

    And that's truly the problem, renegade is way more reliant on FB to be attractive to a comp than FB needs renegade to be attractive because guardian utility is crazy stupid.

    This is so true. Gearing a quickbrand, power or condi is ez af. On power u need maximum 25 bd which is ez to get and on condi u can just slot fb runes and your done. Even in healing a few minstrel/harrier piece is all u need then u can just fill the rest with magi. Fb is also extremely potent in open world, metas, dungeons, soloing stuff giving you more value out of the builds.

    Renegade on the other hand.....u have to gear a preposterous amount of diviner just for alacrity while already not having the best dps. And it can only be effective with a buddy as alacrity by itself doesnt give much value. Gearing all that just for fractals and nothing else is an investment a lot of people, including myself, arent willing to make.And u would also need healing gear with full concentration if a group wants to run a healer which means even more investment.
    Atm out of all the different supports i feel renegade is probably the weakest link as u have to sacrifice too many stats just for alacrity and u require a buddy for quickness + supplementary boons (most of these usually come from fb). Is it indeed very niche.

    I cant fully agree. Yes, the gearing is a bit more difficult and the diviner variant is probably only gonna be meta for comps without heal.

    But the harrier variant? In fractals you already gain 15% boon duration from the fractal potion conversion (150 AR, fractal mastery max, 5 stacks mobility potion). Add to that a concentration sigil, water runes (you really only need monk runes on rather exotic healing builds without salvation, for example devastation/invocation) and peppermint oil, and you are already at 57% boon duration. For ease of use, Id suggest going for 100%, so 43% left through concentration. Thats roughly trinkets + backpiece + weapons. So you could just go with clerics armor (power stat for elite). --> Build
    Thats not unreasonable.

    The thing about renegade, is that it really brings a lot of dps increase. Theres AP, ofc, which is pretty much on par with EA now. And Kalla Elite. You get about 10-25% kalla elite uptime overall in cms with a harrier renegade. On short burst phases its even more, because there its 100% uptime for the burst.

    A chrono doesnt offer anything in that regard, it offers "only" additional utility. But what if you dont need that utility? You could force your bs to run tactics spellbreaker, still way more dps than replacing renegade with a alacrity chrono. And I mean, Im always saying "force", but in reality its not actually that bad. You cant really run GS anymore then, but its not as if you have to run special equip for PS. On spellbreaker you loose around what... 5k realistically, the "normal" pug BS probably way less. And everyone has to bring consumables for cc (Pirate's Leg for example). Its not the end of the world, and you gain a lot.

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    You'll lose less to take SpB than take trickery in thief or a power chrono over an other DPS or mines over bomb or grenade kit.

    You'll lose less to NOT take PS war (because it means runes and/or food/sigil) than to take Lasting Legacy over RR if you play harrier Ren with Salvation (because you don't need RR at all with Ventari) in fractals. I don't know how you test you ren but I can assure you you can maintain perma alacrity perma 25 mights, and Soulcleave and the healing skill one when you swap to kalla.
    If you play diviner with Invocation, yes, you can't pass over RR and you can't maintain 25 mights alone, or you sacrifice the perma alacrity for the mights. Still you have FB, may you have weaver, holo to cap the 25.
    Stop Making PS war/SpB a thing, it is NOT needed *edit, in a Ren Healer comp.

    You are quite wrong there. The radius is the main problem, which is why you want to bring Righteous Rebel even for fractals. On might the radius is also quite small, so you'd have to stack really tight (240) for this to work even remotely. Thats something that doesnt work in fractals, be it due to fight mechanics or instabilities.

    PS bannerwarrior (core) only has to switch out ONE trait, and bring elite warbanner. You bring Phalanx Strength instead of Powerful Synergy. If you notice might still being a problem due to instabs/mechanics, you can add dumplings et voila. 25 might with 600 radius.
    Honestly, why wouldnt you at least run PS trait? And warbanner is free thanks to singularities.

    I agree that spellbreaker looses around 5k dmg, but theres other solutions for boonremove that dont involve spellbreaker. Domi DT dps chrono is my current favourite. Holo with mines also only looses a bit dps on bosses with short phases. Or you just dont run ventari on renegade and bring mallyx for boss fights.

    So, no... Im sorry. But PS will definitely become meta. Even if you dont agree, its the best solution for the missing around 15 might.

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

    Druid is not in a great place imo as a healer and is easily replaced by a soulbeast.

    You would have soulbeast, chrono, harrier fb, bs war, then whatever DPS you want, usually a dragonhunter because break bars are totally busted for burst power specs.

    It's a complete carry comp and does the fractals in your average group much quicker.

    On EU its way easier to find a harrier renegade and a berserker+pack runes firebrand than the reverse. Trying to force a chrono into that comp lowers its value a lot, you either replace kalla elite and more cc with SoI that you dont need in fractals, or blocks, superior dps and signet share with SoI that you dont need.
    Might is something a boonchrono doesnt supply at all anymore, however, if bs has to provide all 25 mightstacks then he needs strength runes (yes, we tested this), lowering bs dps quite a bit.

    Why exactly do you want to force a boonchrono in there? Because of pulls? FB GS5 + Tome1 skill3 work nicely, renegade can help out with axe5, but its not even necessary.
    Or is it because of skips? Quite a lot skips a weaver can do as well. Or a daredevil. Or a power chrono

    As for 1-healer pug t4+cms runs this is what we have had best results on:

    • 1 Harrier renegade
    • 1 Power Firebrand with Pack Runes
    • 1 Power Bannerwarrior PS
    • 2 power DPS

    Boon remove is an issue, because if you force bannerwarrior to play a tactics spellbreaker build, thats quite a dps loss. However, theres several dps builds that you can run on boon-heavy instability days. Holosmith with mines, daredevil with trickery, power chrono. For "unproblematic" fractals with boons your renegade can just play mallyx instead of ventari. It reduces kalla uptime, but its an easy solution.

    On NA the amount of times I have found a support rene in LFG in the past 2 months since I ask for healer and not specifically a druid is : A SINGLE TIME.

    It is truly a very niche spec so few people in NA play, I'd rather settle for a Harrier FB since the Harrier FB still serves as a useful healer alongside a chrono for alacrity with stability and aegis spam on top.

    Support renegade on its own provides....healing and Kalla (since if you don't find a quickbrand, you'll run a chrono anyways). But I'll take nearly perma stab for Skorvald, Artsariv, and MAMA any day over Kalla elite as it will in most realistic scenarios translate to far more DPS by allowing people to turret those hectic phases without getting pinballed around.

    I love my power chrono DPS above all, but if the team doesn't have a guardian of any kind I will always bring mine instead because I cannot stress how vital stability and aegis are for smooth burn phases, and renegade lacks that.

    And that's truly the problem, renegade is way more reliant on FB to be attractive to a comp than FB needs renegade to be attractive because guardian utility is crazy stupid.

    This is so true. Gearing a quickbrand, power or condi is ez af. On power u need maximum 25 bd which is ez to get and on condi u can just slot fb runes and your done. Even in healing a few minstrel/harrier piece is all u need then u can just fill the rest with magi. Fb is also extremely potent in open world, metas, dungeons, soloing stuff giving you more value out of the builds.

    Renegade on the other hand.....u have to gear a preposterous amount of diviner just for alacrity while already not having the best dps. And it can only be effective with a buddy as alacrity by itself doesnt give much value. Gearing all that just for fractals and nothing else is an investment a lot of people, including myself, arent willing to make.And u would also need healing gear with full concentration if a group wants to run a healer which means even more investment.
    Atm out of all the different supports i feel renegade is probably the weakest link as u have to sacrifice too many stats just for alacrity and u require a buddy for quickness + supplementary boons (most of these usually come from fb). Is it indeed very niche.

    I cant fully agree. Yes, the gearing is a bit more difficult and the diviner variant is probably only gonna be meta for comps without heal.

    But the harrier variant? In fractals you already gain 15% boon duration from the fractal potion conversion (150 AR, fractal mastery max, 5 stacks mobility potion). Add to that a concentration sigil, water runes (you really only need monk runes on rather exotic healing builds without salvation, for example devastation/invocation) and peppermint oil, and you are already at 57% boon duration. For ease of use, Id suggest going for 100%, so 43% left through concentration. Thats roughly trinkets + backpiece + weapons. So you could just go with clerics armor (power stat for elite). --> Build
    Thats not unreasonable.

    The thing about renegade, is that it really brings a lot of dps increase. Theres AP, ofc, which is pretty much on par with EA now. And Kalla Elite. You get about 10-25% kalla elite uptime overall in cms with a harrier renegade. On short burst phases its even more, because there its 100% uptime for the burst.

    A chrono doesnt offer anything in that regard, it offers "only" additional utility. But what if you dont need that utility? You could force your bs to run tactics spellbreaker, still way more dps than replacing renegade with a alacrity chrono. And I mean, Im always saying "force", but in reality its not actually that bad. You cant really run GS anymore then, but its not as if you have to run special equip for PS. On spellbreaker you loose around what... 5k realistically, the "normal" pug BS probably way less. And everyone has to bring consumables for cc (Pirate's Leg for example). Its not the end of the world, and you gain a lot.

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    You'll lose less to take SpB than take trickery in thief or a power chrono over an other DPS or mines over bomb or grenade kit.

    You'll lose less to NOT take PS war (because it means runes and/or food/sigil) than to take Lasting Legacy over RR if you play harrier Ren with Salvation (because you don't need RR at all with Ventari) in fractals. I don't know how you test you ren but I can assure you you can maintain perma alacrity perma 25 mights, and Soulcleave and the healing skill one when you swap to kalla.
    If you play diviner with Invocation, yes, you can't pass over RR and you can't maintain 25 mights alone, or you sacrifice the perma alacrity for the mights. Still you have FB, may you have weaver, holo to cap the 25.
    Stop Making PS war/SpB a thing, it is NOT needed *edit, in a Ren Healer comp.

    You are quite wrong there. The radius is the main problem, which is why you want to bring Righteous Rebel even for fractals. On might the radius is also quite small, so you'd have to stack really tight (240) for this to work even remotely. Thats something that doesnt work in fractals, be it due to fight mechanics or instabilities.

    PS bannerwarrior (core) only has to switch out ONE trait, and bring elite warbanner. You bring Phalanx Strength instead of Powerful Synergy. If you notice might still being a problem due to instabs/mechanics, you can add dumplings et voila. 25 might with 600 radius.
    Honestly, why wouldnt you at least run PS trait? And warbanner is free thanks to singularities.

    I agree that spellbreaker looses around 5k dmg, but theres other solutions for boonremove that dont involve spellbreaker. Domi DT dps chrono is my current favourite. Holo with mines also only looses a bit dps on bosses with short phases. Or you just dont run ventari on renegade and bring mallyx for boss fights.

    So, no... Im sorry. But PS will definitely become meta. Even if you dont agree, its the best solution for the missing around 15 might.

    Im not disagreeing as to the benefits of bringing renegade as atm ren+ fb is the most effective support u can bring in fracs. Im simply arguing about the fact that it isnt as ez to find as fb/chrono and why it is such a niche build. Basically it is great for fractals but in dungeons and metas, open world by itself it doesnt have a big impact, in dungeons alacrity doesnt have much value by itself and in PUG raids it's not ez to accomodate unless the whole setup is tweaked. Hence why a lot of people dont invest in gear for it.
    Perhaps if diviner's was less timegated i guess....

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

    Renegade on the other hand.....u have to gear a preposterous amount of diviner just for alacrity while already not having the best dps. And it can only be effective with a buddy as alacrity by itself doesnt give much value. Gearing all that just for fractals and nothing else is an investment a lot of people, including myself, arent willing to make.And u would also need healing gear with full concentration if a group wants to run a healer which means even more investment.
    Atm out of all the different supports i feel renegade is probably the weakest link as u have to sacrifice too many stats just for alacrity and u require a buddy for quickness + supplementary boons (most of these usually come from fb). For me the worst thing is the energy factor. It just limits the potential of the build as most impacting skills u have require a big amount of energy leaving u very little freedom and versatility.For example Staff 5 is one of the strongest cc's in the game currently but consumes a kitten of energy, yet u are expected to use it in cc bars leaving u with simply simple aa's unless u can change legend. Is it indeed very niche.

    Exactly this...I feel kinda cheated. Invest so much time to gear only for 1 boon uptime. While on Berserker Firebrand I can maintain so much buffs for other teamates if tryharding. IF I had 150 energy then it is OK and you kinda have enough to use F2/F4 1 utility and pop Soulscleave Summit Right now you kinda need to choose half you use and half for next swap. so perma alacrity and 10 might is top what this class can pull out. kinda bad.

    Jokaurene

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2019

    I'm quite wrong, so my ren is broken cheated or something ???
    You can't be serious. FB berserker is okai, but F2-F4 on Ren have radius issue ? So was it for chrono too ?? Plus PS is what now ? 4 or 5sec might ? You'll change all runes and sigils to maintain 25 stack ?
    You can't build a support-support class in a meta-comp because you can't pack, place properly and you all need someone to rub out your errors.

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