Since this latest patch has a support Fractal Firebrand build been established?

I've seen a lot of build theory crafting (harriers healing, vipers quickbrand, berserkers quickbrand) and many more Firebrands in PUG fractals since the patch. Seems like there is still a lot of variation in the builds I'm seeing. What's the current thinking as to the optimal build, ideally PUG friendly?

harrier with couple of minstrel rings maybe amulet as well(pugs are scary :) ). That is what I see alot.Seen only 1 condi quickbrand, viper and again with couple of tralblazer.Hope this helps.

It depends on what you want to play. Firebrand is a good specialization for either playing a condition build or a support build.

Viper firebrand with balthazar runes works well for stacking burn damage. It is outperformed by core engineer in terms of condition damage since core engineer has multiple conditions to work with, but viper firebrand can help out a core engineer to keep high burn damage on fractal bosses. Viper firebrand is played most of the time due to most pugs not having any issues staying alive.

Support firebrand can be useful in any pug. I would only recommend playing support firebrand mostly on the difficulty tiers (fractal 25, fractal 50, fractal 75). Personally, I've never had issues with pugs in these fractals, but there were plenty of moments where the entire group could've easily wiped. Outside of those fractals, there really is no point in playing support especially if your group has a druid.

@Hoodie.1045 said:It depends on what you want to play. Firebrand is a good specialization for either playing a condition build or a support build.

Viper firebrand with balthazar runes works well for stacking burn damage. It is outperformed by core engineer in terms of condition damage since core engineer has multiple conditions to work with, but viper firebrand can help out a core engineer to keep high burn damage on fractal bosses. Viper firebrand is played most of the time due to most pugs not having any issues staying alive.

What do you mean by helping out the engi? The damage you do is independent of the other classes (except the boons they might give)

@yann.1946 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:It depends on what you want to play. Firebrand is a good specialization for either playing a condition build or a support build.

Viper firebrand with balthazar runes works well for stacking burn damage. It is outperformed by core engineer in terms of condition damage since core engineer has multiple conditions to work with, but viper firebrand can help out a core engineer to keep high burn damage on fractal bosses. Viper firebrand is played most of the time due to most pugs not having any issues staying alive.

What do you mean by helping out the engi? The damage you do is independent of the other classes (except the boons they might give)

I was talking about effect stacking. Burning is an intensity stacking condition, not duration stacking, meaning that each burning stack applies its own intensity based on their duration. The stack with the higher duration is used first, while the shorter stacks are paused. When the higher duration stack expires, the next stack with the longest duration resumes.

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:It depends on what you want to play. Firebrand is a good specialization for either playing a condition build or a support build.

Viper firebrand with balthazar runes works well for stacking burn damage. It is outperformed by core engineer in terms of condition damage since core engineer has multiple conditions to work with, but viper firebrand can help out a core engineer to keep high burn damage on fractal bosses. Viper firebrand is played most of the time due to most pugs not having any issues staying alive.

What do you mean by helping out the engi? The damage you do is independent of the other classes (except the boons they might give)

We'll both stacks would deal damage at the same time. No stacks are paused

I don't know how you'd categorize something as "optimal" and "PUG friendly" since PUGs are rarely optimal.

But, having played a Diviner's Firebrand through T4s for the last three nights, I think it can work well in groups that aren't too reliant on Alacrity for their DPS. With Empowering Might, I'm getting about 85-90 outbound Might generation (compared to a Druid's 125+), and 100% Quickness and Fury generation. My DPS with a Sword/Shield and Greatsword hovers around 6-10k, depending on the fight. You'll of course contribute much more when you can call out your Aegis and Stability, so your DPS know when they can get away with skipping mechanics.

And as with most Guardian builds, your CC contribution is just really lacking. Heck, I'm even considering experimenting with a Hammer for future runs.

Ideal would be Berserker FB + Diviner rene. Rene can always go harrier for heals.FB doesn't need any extra boon duration for quickness in fractals. Rene needs a lot boon duration though.

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:It depends on what you want to play. Firebrand is a good specialization for either playing a condition build or a support build.

Viper firebrand with balthazar runes works well for stacking burn damage. It is outperformed by core engineer in terms of condition damage since core engineer has multiple conditions to work with, but viper firebrand can help out a core engineer to keep high burn damage on fractal bosses. Viper firebrand is played most of the time due to most pugs not having any issues staying alive.

What do you mean by helping out the engi? The damage you do is independent of the other classes (except the boons they might give)

This is just wrong. All stacks get used and deal damage at the same time. What you describe was the way burning behaved 5 years ago. Well even then it was probably first in first out without factoring the duration.

Been established by who ? Just try by yourself.

I did the berserker FB ; but the healing mantra can be very very lame when healing skill needed; and the quickness duration can be a bit short because of the radius of mantras and people not close to you....*and alacrity needed. Diviner Ren + berserker FB is a power compo for "uber" players who know each other, not for random players, nor for all fractals. Vipere still give more DPS; of course this is less "bursty" but burning dmg rise fast enough.Harrier support FB is a very good package in fractals : oc perma quickness, stab + aegis spam, resistance and condicleanse, wall etc, and very very strong regen and heals.If you pug; build a DH, then if needed switch to FB, or build harrier directly if you want a SUPPORT FB.

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:Been established by who ? Just try by yourself.

I did the berserker FB ; but the healing mantra can be very very lame when healing skill needed; and the quickness duration can be a bit short because of the radius of mantras and people not close to you....*and alacrity needed. Diviner Ren + berserker FB is a power compo for "uber" players who know each other, not for random players, nor for all fractals. Vipere still give more DPS; of course this is less "bursty" but burning dmg rise fast enough.Harrier support FB is a very good package in fractals : oc perma quickness, stab + aegis spam, resistance and condicleanse, wall etc, and very very strong regen and heals.If you pug; build a DH, then if needed switch to FB, or build harrier directly if you want a SUPPORT FB.

Renegade kalla elite heals a lot. Did that comp in pugs today and it worked. Just switched to healer for mama and siax. It has better sustain in all the fractals compared to chrono, warr + triple dps. It just lacks blink + double portal and high duration stealth which is huge in some fractals.Viper Fb is basically only better in trash groups with really long phases.

Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

Druid is not in a great place imo as a healer and is easily replaced by a soulbeast.

You would have soulbeast, chrono, harrier fb, bs war, then whatever DPS you want, usually a dragonhunter because break bars are totally busted for burst power specs.

It's a complete carry comp and does the fractals in your average group much quicker.

@"Zenith.7301" said:Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

Druid is not in a great place imo as a healer and is easily replaced by a soulbeast.

You would have soulbeast, chrono, harrier fb, bs war, then whatever DPS you want, usually a dragonhunter because break bars are totally busted for burst power specs.

It's a complete carry comp and does the fractals in your average group much quicker.

On EU its way easier to find a harrier renegade and a berserker+pack runes firebrand than the reverse. Trying to force a chrono into that comp lowers its value a lot, you either replace kalla elite and more cc with SoI that you dont need in fractals, or blocks, superior dps and signet share with SoI that you dont need.Might is something a boonchrono doesnt supply at all anymore, however, if bs has to provide all 25 mightstacks then he needs strength runes (yes, we tested this), lowering bs dps quite a bit.

Why exactly do you want to force a boonchrono in there? Because of pulls? FB GS5 + Tome1 skill3 work nicely, renegade can help out with axe5, but its not even necessary.Or is it because of skips? Quite a lot skips a weaver can do as well. Or a daredevil. Or a power chrono

As for 1-healer pug t4+cms runs this is what we have had best results on:

• 1 Harrier renegade
• 1 Power Firebrand with Pack Runes
• 1 Power Bannerwarrior PS
• 2 power DPS

Boon remove is an issue, because if you force bannerwarrior to play a tactics spellbreaker build, thats quite a dps loss. However, theres several dps builds that you can run on boon-heavy instability days. Holosmith with mines, daredevil with trickery, power chrono. For "unproblematic" fractals with boons your renegade can just play mallyx instead of ventari. It reduces kalla uptime, but its an easy solution.

@Yasi.9065 said:

@"Zenith.7301" said:Fact is most people don't have support renegades since it's an incredibly niche build even in PvE, so the most realistic scenario is that Harrier FB will replace a druid and alongside the zerker/diviner chrono will have a group with perma quickness, alacrity, stability, and a ton of aegis.

Druid is not in a great place imo as a healer and is easily replaced by a soulbeast.

You would have soulbeast, chrono, harrier fb, bs war, then whatever DPS you want, usually a dragonhunter because break bars are totally busted for burst power specs.

It's a complete carry comp and does the fractals in your average group much quicker.

• 1 Harrier renegade
• 1 Power Firebrand with Pack Runes
• 1 Power Bannerwarrior PS
• 2 power DPS

I think Zenith was merely applying the possibility of getting a harrier Renegade versus a harrier Firebrand from a PUG perspective.

While Firebrand+chrono might be lacking in synergy. It still works nicely and if you can find someone to cover for the lacking might, it's good enough. Obviously there are stronger compositions. Harrier renegade and firebrand are the ideal pick. Just if you can't get those 2, the second best would probably be harrier Firebrand and chrono (have the chrono remove some boon duration and replace quickness skills for damage).

Thank you all for the information!

Yasi, US based T4 LFGs are starting to ask for healing renegades and firebrands now as well and I'm starting to see comps forming similar to what you suggested. I think you may be on to something here. Its basically the old meta comp with healing renegade/hybrid support firebrand replacing the old healing druid/support chrono. I think this has a good chance of catching on with PUGs since 3 of the 5 roles are pretty much the same as before.

The one time I've had a renegade healer in my group and I brought a power firebrand build with pack runes, it went very smoothly. Not a very large sample size and requires more testing I know. I have to say, I like playing power firebrand much more than the regular DPS DH build which is a huge plus for me personally.

Any other thoughts?

So far we havent had problems finding one. Most have no clue what to do yet, and it shows. But after some explanations its fine, its after all not that difficult. Power firebrands are more difficult to find, especially ones that realize they have to supply some might via scepter symbol, pull with GS5+Tome1 and have a reflect on tome3.Honestly, considering how long I see people searching for chronos, its really better to go with fb+ren.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAW3OnsAjFBDGCBkCjF+BbPj+RPpWFgw1EALAkeKCA-jxhXQBAY/hQ9EAonuB/p+juuIAIU5XDVCSKA/GZB-e

This is pretty much what I have settled on for Fractals (daily CM's+T4) as base build.It provides perma 25 Might, Fury, Quickness, Protection and Swiftness with very high uptime of everything else, aside from only Minor Resistance and Vigor, and obviously no Alacrity.It also provides pretty decent CC with Bane, Shield 5, Tome of Justice and Axe 3.Bane Signet also provides a Power Increase for the Party with Radiance, which is also supplying enough Crit chance to reliably proc Empowering Might.

For Fractals, I usually switch out some Harrier pieces for Magi, due to free boon duration from the potions, for more Healing and Crit Chance.

If you run with a Chrono instead of Renegade, you can switch out Stalwart Speed and or Liberator's Vow for whatever you prefer, I usually go with Weighty Terms lately, for more Aegis and Stab spam, as well as covering might slightly better if someone misses a Mantra, but Legendary Lore is a good pick as well if you feel like you need the extra Prot and Regen.

For the last utility I usually run Bow of Truth, just because it can carry through really messy phases better than anything else I've found, but Hold the Line and Stand your Ground etc. also have a place, especially when you don't need to carry pugs.

Also made a power and condi Quickbrand, but the support Renegades I have found so far struggled extremely to keep the party alive, probably due to not knowing what they are doing though. So I'm generally on support duty and sticking to this build.

more easest ways make set:if support - ministrel + water runes till 100% boon duration wiht pots and and boons capped take magiif condi dps more easy change stats - buy on TP Intact Mosaic, this is Grieving (+Power, +Condition Damage, +Ferocity, +Precision) stat combo and bring expertise from runes and sigls.

I saw less ren (DPS or healsupport) than I saw FB.IMO you'll be more useful in harrier FB alone or with a chrono or druid than a Ren or a Berserker FB. Because it works fin in more compos than ren, because quickness is upper and you have more healing, utilities and boons. In a good day you'll find a harrier ren, then you'll be 2 healers, won't really change of chrono+druid's DPS, just way more healing and boons. Still you can swap armor between your 2 classes, or everybody have a berserker set somewhere.

The problem(s) with FB+ Rev is who of the 2 should be healer ? I would say FB because he is a worse dps and better at healing and a lot more boons.Until the news stats came there were no real alternative Rev became automatically a healer too( with harrier stats)

Rev and chrono should run both diviner stats now . There are also the problem Rev is incredible raw to see in pve

FB can work with both with chrono the down side is you need to change a mantra to might and the amount of fury is a bit low.

A support rev on the other side can't really work with a druid you get an insane amount of might but no quickness

No one support class needed diviner stats if we talk about fractals, especialy fb. Support should have lot of toghnees, sometimes vitality and very stable stand on ground, never be in downstate, and ready include take other from downstate in rotation. So harrier is not optimal choose too.

What about raids - yes some setup can be uses deviner, but that don't bring somethig incredably in total count.

Bring for rev diviner - make him totally depend to have fb sup in party - bad idea too.

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:The problem(s) with FB+ Rev is who of the 2 should be healer ? I would say FB because he is a worse dps and better at healing and a lot more boons.Until the news stats came there were no real alternative Rev became automatically a healer too( with harrier stats)

Depends on who has to sacrifice more to provide permanent alacrity (renegade) or quickness (firebrand). Not sure on how much boon duration is needed on renegade, but firebrand can do with very little to upkeep perma quickness.

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

A support rev on the other side can't really work with a druid you get an insane amount of might but no quickness

That's the main difference. Quickness is more useful overall compared to alacrity if a group has to chose between both. That and the passive might from most classes makes fury more valuable over 25 might. Plus the remaining boons of support FB.

@lare.5129 said:No one support class needed diviner stats if we talk about fractals, especialy fb. Support should have lot of toghnees

Please no, unless you are absolutely new to the game and are eating attacks left and right, there is no reason to take toughness unless for tanking purposes (which is raids). Maybe a bit vitality on support Firebrand since you are over-capping boon duration a lot with full harrier if you want to feel slightly safer and are inexperienced. Even that is not needed though, survival with 11.5k base hit points is more than doable.

Unless you want to draw the majority of attention on yourself (worked back in vanilla as guardian too), in that case get some toughness and get ready to deal with 70-80% of all fractal enemies focusing you.

@lare.5129 said:No one support class needed diviner stats if we talk about fractals, especialy fb. Support should have lot of toghnees, sometimes vitality and very stable stand on ground, never be in downstate, and ready include take other from downstate in rotation. So harrier is not optimal choose too.

What about raids - yes some setup can be uses deviner, but that don't bring somethig incredably in total count.

Bring for rev diviner - make him totally depend to have fb sup in party - bad idea too.

Nobody needs toughness in fractals. You dont even need a healer most of the time with kalla spirit. FB needs the boon duration for protection + regen uptime.Also chrono needs a lot of boon duration solo so it kind of needs diviners in fractals if you dont want to waste stats with commanders.

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:The problem(s) with FB+ Rev is who of the 2 should be healer ? I would say FB because he is a worse dps and better at healing and a lot more boons.Until the news stats came there were no real alternative Rev became automatically a healer too( with harrier stats)

Rev and chrono should run both diviner stats now . There are also the problem Rev is incredible raw to see in pve

FB can work with both with chrono the down side is you need to change a mantra to might and the amount of fury is a bit low.

A support rev on the other side can't really work with a druid you get an insane amount of might but no quickness

Power or even condi FB are far superior dps to rene. Revenant has still huge energy problems even after 4 years. You are either mediocre dps and have no support or good support and shit dps. Especially alacrity rene since it needs 78% boon duration for perma alacrity.Also Fb has a lot of burst while rene has almost none. Fractals were designed without a healer in mind. You really don't need a healer for most of the fractals. In fact playing fb + diviner rene feels like playing with a pug druid because kalla elite adds so much heal without investing in any healing power. It will pretty much die completely if they ever nerf it though. Power revenant needs buffs in pve. Or chrono needs dps nerfs. Rene provides only alacrity + lifesteal and can get outdamaged by a boonchrono on some fights. Removing any boon duration scaling from SOI was a huge mistake.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Please no, unless you are absolutely new to the game and are eating attacks left and right, there is no reason to take toughness unless for tanking purposes (which is raids). Maybe a bit vitality on support Firebrand since you are over-capping boon duration a lot with full harrier if you want to feel slightly safer and are inexperienced. Even that is not needed though, survival with 11.5k base hit points is more than doable.

no matter how you a experienced, we talking about common role for support, and if we not go with magic 500kp party we should be ready that half party will be eat everything, and donwstate will be part of rotation. So now you choose: leave that party, or asap ress and during that eat too.

Unless you want to draw the majority of attention on yourself (worked back in vanilla as guardian too), in that case get some toughness and get ready to deal with 70-80% of all fractal enemies focusing you.And this is good, and one of profit. Better set agro on bunker-heal, because zerk holo or thief, especialy if not pro skilled don't have big survive possibilities. Who if not you will be target??

@Nephalem.8921 said:Removing any boon duration scaling from SOI was a huge mistake.I am playing chrno long time too, and think that soi changes don't break something totaly. Dont't like soi and think that it nerfed ? - so remove it at all from utils bar. How I understand main idea of that change was possibilitie use other utils configuration, and no any mistake - idea implemented. As fb you can choose many variaty from skills, and this is ok !