It is time to remove 40% endurance food

It has become pretty clear the Mirage class is not going to be ever properly balanced in any game mode. Given the current state of WvW small scale, it is way past time to remove the 40% endurance regen food. This food completely breaks class balance on Mirage, and really needs to be implemented ASAP.

I'll let you in on a little secret - it's not even going to make a dent in whatever is troubling you if that food gets removed. You are looking at the wrong thing to pin the blame on. If this good gets removed, guess what? They will still be strong.

@DemonSeed.3528 said:I'll let you in on a little secret - it's not even going to make a dent in whatever is troubling you if that food gets removed. You are looking at the wrong thing to pin the blame on. If this good gets removed, guess what? They will still be strong.

Yeah, they will still be strong. The class is broken.

But there is PvP tier broken and then there is WvW roaming/small scale broken. This food is a major culprit of how insanely OP they are in WvW at the moment. I will happily settle for something closer to PvP levels of broken and not have to deal with Mesmers with perma 40% endurance regen and 90% regen with Vigor.

I think it makes more sense to look at the class instead of that though - btw check out one of jawgeous recent vids on youtube, he sums up the problems with mirage quite nicely - they do need tuning no doubt. I like playing my mesmer/chrono/mirage but mirage is miles ahead in all the things it can do especially in damaging enemies both pow/condi, dmg avoidance and mitigation, and being able to reset or escape, it has all the nice toys. I think the class needs looking at first before the food.

@DemonSeed.3528 said:I think the class needs looking at first before the food.

Fair enough. But I think there is just SO SO MUCH bloat and OP about the class that it is just taking far too long to balance. This food is a serious source of what makes them OP, and much more broken in WvW than in PvP. It is the easiest immediate fix.

I say this with a little sense of urgency. This one class has chased away 3 real life friends from the game (pure frustration) and several times more Guildies. Universal frustration and a pure sense of unenjoyable gameplay is not how you build or maintain a player base.

So, let me get this right, you are proposing a nerf on food instead of a nerf on mirrage?Is this a joke or a real post?

@Hitman.5829 said:So, let me get this right, you are proposing a nerf on food instead of a nerf on mirrage?Is this a joke or a real post?

Maybe he learned from you.

Mmm ... would be a very interesting change, although not only affect the mirage. Almost all classes use that food

Mainreason why so many classes use this food it the powercreep. Dodging that one extra attack ends up being more beneficial than any alternative cause everything hits like a truck nowdays.

Dodge on other classes =/= dodge on Mirage. Get rid of it, it basically makes Mirage Cloak which is a high damage/evade skill have 8 seconds base recharge, and 5.5 with vigor.

If you play both PvP and WvW you would know just how drastically OP this is. PvP Mirage without this food is very different from the toxic roaming Mirage builds in WvW. 40% endurance regen is MASSIVE for the spec.

You should play Mirage based on your opinion & knowledge about the class. Wouldn't it make you happier to be able to win more often?

Walk a mile as a Mirage & see how far you fare.

All classes have the potential to be viewed as broken & OP.

Depends on if you're the one doing the stompin, or you're the one being stomped on...imho

@DemonSeed.3528 said:I think it makes more sense to look at the class instead of that though - btw check out one of jawgeous recent vids on youtube, he sums up the problems with mirage quite nicely - they do need tuning no doubt. I like playing my mesmer/chrono/mirage but mirage is miles ahead in all the things it can do especially in damaging enemies both pow/condi, dmg avoidance and mitigation, and being able to reset or escape, it has all the nice toys. I think the class needs looking at first before the food.

Looking at mirage itself is definitely the priority, given how it's broken in PvP as well. However, dodge food needed to be fixed since HoT. Every time there is a spec that focuses on dodging or having strong effects on their dodges this food ends up breaking it even more. It happened with DD in HoT and it also helps DE keep up their stealth much more easily. I am certain that there will be more elite specs with powerful dodges in the future. This food will just keep creating problems every time we have a new round of elite specs until it is justly nerfed. This food is one of the best even for specs that don't have a greater focus on dodges. If your spec focuses on dodges it becomes broken.

@"LaGranse.8652" said:Mainreason why so many classes use this food it the powercreep. Dodging that one extra attack ends up being more beneficial than any alternative cause everything hits like a truck nowdays.

Exactly...

Nerfing the food is actually an unintended buff to the problem.

If mirage is the problem, then we should look to nerfing mirage rather than nerfing Tempest (insert what ever class you use) which is what this threads idea is proposing.

My suggestion to fix most mirage complaints would be too make Mirage Cloak a cosmetic only, no more evading bursts while stunned, no more casting while dodging, no more channeling while dodging and the rest of it...

If people are worried about "the elite mechanic" then I point too ambush skills, you guys got 2 mechanics with latest expansion whereas everyone else I believe got 1 and none of those broke the parameters of combat that every other class is refined too.

@DemonSeed.3528 said:I think it makes more sense to look at the class instead of that though - btw check out one of jawgeous recent vids on youtube, he sums up the problems with mirage quite nicely - they do need tuning no doubt. I like playing my mesmer/chrono/mirage but mirage is miles ahead in all the things it can do especially in damaging enemies both pow/condi, dmg avoidance and mitigation, and being able to reset or escape, it has all the nice toys. I think the class needs looking at first before the food.

Jawgeous is not a good example of a well thought out rational analysis. Mirage is overtuned but he's quite often pointing at the wrong things that are overpowered and is quick to say mirage has too much kit while not acknowledging how Holo (just picking the trait line and not any traits) gives far more than most if not any trait line in the game.

He's entertaining and a great supply of memes, but don't mistake popularity with competence.

As far as the food is, the food is being used by nearly everyone to get to 5s recharge on dodge. Damage is so high you need scaling damage mitigation and getting dodges back quicker is better than any number of stats most of the time.

Nerf the class. If one class is over performing, then work towards tweaking that class into reign. Take the approach of how they tweaked Dare Devil’s dodges.

Not sure HOW to apply it or something like it to mirage. The food isn’t the problem.

@apharma.3741 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:I think it makes more sense to look at the class instead of that though - btw check out one of jawgeous recent vids on youtube, he sums up the problems with mirage quite nicely - they do need tuning no doubt. I like playing my mesmer/chrono/mirage but mirage is miles ahead in all the things it can do especially in damaging enemies both pow/condi, dmg avoidance and mitigation, and being able to reset or escape, it has all the nice toys. I think the class needs looking at first before the food.

I only brought him up because he was the last video I saw someone upload on the subject, nothing more. Doesn't matter much what he did or didn't say in the end, it still needs to be looked at.

Logically it should have been brought in line alongside nourishment like the condi duration reducing/increasing ones. Something like 10-15% Vigor duration instead of the flat endurance regen would right about do it. It wasn't ok for the old Rare Veggie Pizza/Lemongrass Poultry Soup to have flat 40% modifiers, and it sure as hell isn't ok for Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew to have it either.

OP's right, the food is objectively broken in general, not just for Mirage.

Vigor = 50% regen, food = 40% regen. Food can be maintained indefinitely and has no counterplay (at least vigor can be removed).

There are other food items with boon-like effects, but none of them come as close to boon tier as this one.

Protection is 33% reduction (sometimes 40 if traited), food is 10%.

Regen on some classes can go above 500 per sec, food is around 85.

At best they are ~30% as effective as boons, yet the dodge food is 80%.

Out of curiousity, what foods are all you guys using?

When I roam around in WvW I constantly get ganked from 2vs1 up to 10vs1 all day.It is not a 1vs1 gamemode we all know that, so why people keep asking for nerfs who attack directly roaming specs?

Mirage, boonbeast, holo should be nerfed in spvp, not in wvw where they have a marginal role which is roaming, why people wanna kill roaming even further?I know it's frustating being killed by a condi mirage, an unkillable healing boonbeast or cc chain holo while you roam, but getting ganked it's double frustating in my opinion.

It's like you are asking to nerf Hammer rev damage in spvp only, it does not make any sense.

And just for logic, if you remove that food, every single spec will move to use another food, maybe a dmg redux one or a flat stat bonus food, which still will mantain those professions strong as before if not more, yeah less random dodges will be available, but more raw damage instead will be there...

People ask for nerfs on some Roaming builds because they are overtuned. People want fairer fights. It's not a bad thing to ask for. Yes Roaming builds should be stronger for 1v1, but not so strong that they constantly outperform other classes for the same thing. There should be a balance. Zerg builds should be balanced for zerging and roaming builds should be balanced for roaming. Mirage consistently beats all roaming classes. It is overtuned, therefore it needs to be better balanced for Ranger and Thief to be able to take it on. I hate the fact that two of the three main roaming builds all have lots of stealth and very high mobility, add in Food that gives both of these classes with high number of evades an extra dodge and it's nearly impossible to win. Unless mistakes are made by Thief or Mesmer, Ranger has a very hard time taking them on.

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:Mirage consistently beats all roaming classes.All roaming classes? You mean between the two top tiers - the thief and the mesmer, the mesmer beats the mesmer and the thieves claiming that thief is a hardcounter to mesmer?

I'm shocked, shocked I say!

Well not that shocked.

@DemonSeed.3528 said:Out of curiousity, what foods are all you guys using?

Looks like Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat stew, from reading metabattle.

Anyone defending mirage would get farmed by camp guards all day on other specs

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:People ask for nerfs on some Roaming builds because they are overtuned. People want fairer fights. It's not a bad thing to ask for. Yes Roaming builds should be stronger for 1v1, but not so strong that they constantly outperform other classes for the same thing. There should be a balance. Zerg builds should be balanced for zerging and roaming builds should be balanced for roaming. Mirage consistently beats all roaming classes. It is overtuned, therefore it needs to be better balanced for Ranger and Thief to be able to take it on. I hate the fact that two of the three main roaming builds all have lots of stealth and very high mobility, add in Food that gives both of these classes with high number of evades an extra dodge and it's nearly impossible to win. Unless mistakes are made by Thief or Mesmer, Ranger has a very hard time taking them on.

You say that except I watched a soulbeast (not even boonbeast) running around almost completely immune to condi mirage in a 1v1. It was a fight neither could win, soulbeast too much cleanses and gap openers/kiting and mirage couldn't keep up. Course if either messed up they'd have died.

So saying it's just a mirage problem is dishonest, ranger in general is a huge issue for roaming too or have you missed the 10k auto soulbeasts or the constantly resetting immob spam druids that never really got nerfed like they did in PvP?

Also zergs, yeah, sure. Guardian has been meta 2012-now everyone would quit if they really balanced that, read nerfed guardian so something else was meta.