Is power > precision at all times regardless? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is power > precision at all times regardless?

Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
edited January 20, 2019 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Something i have been wondering a lot is if power is always better than precision point per point at anytime you could chose.

Everyone everywhere seems to talk about ALWAYS capping that crit, but i haven't seen any calculation or proof on the topic.

A while ago for fun i just ran the numbers using gw2skills.net, i extrapolated various numbers to simulate different buffs and such on a power chronomancer and in every single calculation power came out on top without exception. Now, gw2skills may be inaccurate, but it seemed to fit with what i have been seeing and should be super easy for them to get correct so i would not be surprised if their calcs were correct. They pretty much match what i see ingame except i still lack some ascended weapons so it's a few points off nothing more.

So i wonder if anyone has any real insight on this topic and not just hearsay, anyone seen numbers?

For the sake of discussion you can leave out classes with specials conditions on crit that will inflate the normal numbers. Thinking back on it i may have left out some crit damage increase talents from that chrono in calc because i didn't know how they worked then, but i guess that just fits the special conditions neglection.

EDIT: I made an excel sheet to calculate that kitten. Look a bit down for instructions, maybe 2-3 posts down of mine.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRnP7QWrsYbbTEapu1mFPPBzhgyjZkxFDJ5jkxoCRZ2b8ufQ144TbMiVL977jtJJpGKaWyvpDT_wF-n/pub?output=xlsx

Comments

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In what circumstances exactly?
    Because if solo OW, Assassin gear will be better than Berserker because on your own there are very few classes that can crit cap. Namely Guardian and Necromancer that don't benefit from more crit chance.
    But if you have the benefits of a full party/squad like Spotter, perma-Fury and Banner of Discipline, that number of Precision you need will be considerably smaller.

  • Well i guess the circumstances are just always where your crit isn't capped so that you have to make a choice between crit or power (berserker vs assassins).

    What you are saying is stating that crit better if i can still get benefits for those precision points. But i doubt that, i have seen 0 evidence, but i have come across other threads talking about how often people don't get that power>precision. But i just wanted to hear if someone has the insight to correct me or if everyone is just gearing wrong.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not the right person to ask about numbers but I think it's not that precision is actually better, or more popular, but it's harder to get and so more widely discussed. You'd have a hard time avoiding equipment with power as a major stat in GW2 so it's extremely easy to stack up as much as possible. Even power + other offensive stats or power + condition damage or power + defensive stats is a fairly straight-forward choice with clear stat combinations to choose.

    Whereas getting to 100% crit chance takes some planning and more obvious trade-offs. (Especially because to actually make use of it you need ferocity too.) So there's more to think about and discuss when you're making a build for it.

    (Also I could be wrong but I think some of those special conditions on crit actually do lead to doing more damage than you can get through direct damage from power, especially if you're getting 100% critical hits. But I'll leave the specifics to the people who know them.)

    "You can run like a river, Till you end up in the sea,
    And you run till night is black, And keep on going in your dreams,
    And you know all the long while, It's the journey that you seek,
    It's the miles of moving forward, With the wind beneath your wings."

  • Hmm, yea i see what you are saying. It has some serious implications though if true, for example any character that puts on any assassins gear to hit some crit cap is automatically gimping their own damage. In fact if true, it removes any choice for direct dps. It will always be berserker and assassins can be safely ignored.

    But maybe you are right, maybe special conditions are strong and plenty enough that precision get's better.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's incredibly situational and based on some many different factors.

    Class and build play a role as does playstyle, thye type of content you want to play and what items you plan to use..

    The importance of precision over power really does depend on the kind of character you want to make.. so it's impossible to truly say Power is always better and vice versa because it really does always come down to so many different things.. many of which you can't always control.. such as boons and buffs applied by allies or a cheap death that removes your 25 stacks of power or precision from your sigil or what not.

    Best advice I can give is to choose stats that compliment the build you want to make.. somtimes that's power.. sometimes it's precision or sometimes it's neither..

  • As i said i had done the calculations assuming various buff certainly 25 stacks power.

    I don't really think it changes at all to be honest and can be easily predicted. But then again i am very new to game, but i haven't seen any party buffs vastly inflating crit value and other crit inflating skills are constant for the most part.

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    I don't understand the appeal of Assassins gear. Yes you hit the crit cap, but your average damage is lower. It's for chasing the DPS clock for more consistent damage at the cost of lower average damage. Power over Precision can be more variable as averages alone don't explain every instance.

    Power is always better than precision on average, but you'll often get both on the same piece of gear. Berserkers, Assassins, or marauders will be way better than getting just power or just precision without the other.

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    Maybe it truly is the illusion that there lies an optimization where the truth really is just that it's zerker all the way regardless. lol.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hesacon.8735 said:
    I don't understand the appeal of Assassins gear. Yes you hit the crit cap, but your average damage is lower.

    The average won't be lower if you are always benefitting from the critical damage bonus... Not hitting the crit cap means you are having the non crit hits to lower the average...

    I think the rule is: Can you hit 100%?
    Yes: Do it.
    No: Stack Power.

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Hesacon.8735 said:
    I don't understand the appeal of Assassins gear. Yes you hit the crit cap, but your average damage is lower.

    The average won't be lower if you are always benefitting from the critical damage bonus... Not hitting the crit cap means you are having the non crit hits to lower the average...

    I think the rule is: Can you hit 100%?
    Yes: Do it.
    No: Stack Power.

    You're misunderstanding what an average is. I don't remember the exact math, but I think it works out to be 53% of the time Power hits harder than Precision. So on average power wins. The closer you get to the crit cap, the lower the deviation.

    At a certain point the deviation is so low it doesn't matter. If you're over 80% or 90% crit rate already, don't sweat going higher.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hesacon.8735 said:
    You're misunderstanding what an average is. I don't remember the exact math, but I think it works out to be 53% of the time Power hits harder than Precision. So on average power wins.

    ...
    For any comparison of builds, you will get a binary result: either one build has better average dps, or the other. So i don't understand what kind of comparison can result in something being better "53% of the time".

    At a certain point the deviation is so low it doesn't matter. If you're over 80% or 90% crit rate already, don't sweat going higher.

    The breakpoint depends heavily on amount of ferocity you have. In general, the more ferocity, the greater the worth of each % added to crit chance.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Hesacon.8735 said:
    I don't understand the appeal of Assassins gear. Yes you hit the crit cap, but your average damage is lower.

    The average won't be lower if you are always benefitting from the critical damage bonus... Not hitting the crit cap means you are having the non crit hits to lower the average...

    I think the rule is: Can you hit 100%?
    Yes: Do it.
    No: Stack Power.

    That doesn't really answer the question, though. The OP is asking about specifics regarding the relative value of power vs. precision. Of course, this also depends on ferocity as well. For instance, if you have 90% crit rate and 250% crit damage, increasing your crit rate to 100% increases your damage output by 6.4%. But if you only have 50% crit rate and increase to 60%, it increases damage output by 8.6%. What if you have only 225% crit damage and a 50% crit rate? Then increasing your crit to 60% increases damage by 7.7%. So, the value of a point of precision increases along with ferocity/crit damage and decreases the closer you get to 100% crit rate. The question is how does power factor into this calculation and at what point (if ever?) is a point of precision worth more than a point of power?

    I think that's the answer the OP is looking for. I'd also be curious to know if anyone has posted detailed information on this question before.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BunjiKugashira.9754 said:
    The question about the perfect mix of Power and Precision (Berserker's and Assassin's stats) has also bothered me. I tried calculating it here:
    Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)
    Weapon strength, skill-specific coefficient and target's Armor don't depend on the player's stats and don't influence this calculation. Power is a bit misleading since this isn't the stat, but rather the attack's multiplyer consisting of all stats and damage modifications. I'm going to call it "Damage" from here on.
    Power := Base stat
    Precision := Base stat
    Ferocity := Base stat
    Critchance := Chance to land a critical hit between 0(never) and 1(always)
    Critchance = (Precision - 895) / 2100
    Critdamage := Additional damage a critical hit does (0.5 base)
    Critdamage = 0.5 + Ferocity / 1500

    Damage = Power * (1 + Critchance * Critdamage)
    Damage = Power * (1 + ((Precision - 895) / 2100) * (0.5 + Ferocity / 1500))

    Limiting the choice to be only between Berserker's and Assassin's stats means that Power+Precision is always constant.
    Sum := Power + Precision

    Damage = Power * (1 + ((Sum - Power - 895) / 2100) * (0.5 + Ferocity / 1500))

    Next I'm going to insert the values you get with full asc gear with Scholoar runes and no buffs.
    Power = 2557
    Precision = 1960
    Sum = 4517
    Ferocity = 1185

    Calculating the maximum Reveals that 2625 Power would be best (global maximum). This is more than you even get with pure Berserker's stats.

    Now I'm going to add buffs:
    25 Stacks might
    Fury
    Banner of Discipline
    Spotter
    Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup
    Superior Sharpening Stone

    Power : 2557 + 25 * 30 + 100 + 0.03 * Precision + 0.06 * Ferocity
    Precision : 1960 + 170 + 100
    Ferocity : 1185 + 170 + 70
    Damage = (Power + 25 * 30 + 100 + 0.03 * (Sum - Power + 170 + 100) + 0.06 * (Ferocity + 170 + 70)) * (1 + 0.2((Sum - Power + 170 + 100 - 895) / 2100) * (0.5 + (Ferocity + 170 + 70) / 1500))

    Again calculating the maximum shows that Damage is increased by increasing Power and decreasing Precision until a theoretical maximum of 5011 Power, which is more than what can be reached by going full Berserker's.

    Note that some traits like Ferocious Winds can influence the result and the calculation would need to be made for every build to account for such skills.

    Oh, that's handy. Nice work!

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2019

    Great post with clear numbers and specific links, me like. I got inspired and took it a little further with my way of calculating to see if similar results. Now i have made a full calculating spreadsheet for excel you can select which buffs you have and it will tell your ideal values. It's pretty cool, i got surprised with results it wasn't as black and white as i thought. I think you have to download that file before you can edit it yourself.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRnP7QWrsYbbTEapu1mFPPBzhgyjZkxFDJ5jkxoCRZ2b8ufQ144TbMiVL977jtJJpGKaWyvpDT_wF-n/pub?output=xlsx

    It has the possibility of the following buffs to be enabled/disabled:
    25 Stacks might
    Fury
    Superior Sharpening Stone
    Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup
    Banner of Discipline
    Banner of Strength
    Spotter
    Additionally you can add overall crit damage multipliers like mesmer duelist superiority complex and you can also add extra values of power, precision and ferocity to simulate other buffs you could want.

    How to use it:
    At the top you can add values on buffs, 1 means enabled, 0 means disabled and for might and extra values you can write the value or might stacks. It then gives you a huge list which is the data for every single tradeoff between power and precision within the ranges from full assassin to full berserker.

    Near the top it also says ideal unbuffed power value(directly related to precision since every power you miss is instead in precision. So you don't have to look through the list, but doing so can give you some understanding. The bigger numbers listed under damage aren't dps or real damage numbers, it's a relative value so 6000 would result in 50% more dps than 4000 etc.

    It is very interestingly balanced, it really changes a lot - most of the time except when you have almost no buffs, you want to cap crit, especially when you have high stacks of might then you generally are better off to get more assassin gear, but for other buff combos ideal dps is found around 76% crit. Check it out for yourself, no need to be in doubt anymore.

    If anyone finds any error or something do please let me know so i can fiix it, think it's clean though.


    How i calculated it all - boring section only for those interested. A bit brief coz i haven't slept in days and this took me hours to make. Enjoy!

    To get there, i first summed up the stats of the two sets(and included infusions - power for berserker and precision for assassin).

    Berserker Unbuffed Stats:
    Power: 2646
    Precision: 1961
    ferocity: 1256

    Assassin Unbuffed Stats:
    Power: 2136
    Precision: 2471
    ferocity: 1256


    Formulas:
    Have rearranged damage formula, but is the exact same. For later purposes, looks more complicated but needed when i have to add in multipliers to crit damage anyway.

    Crit chance = (precision - 895) / 2100 + 0.2(fury)
    Crit damage = 1.5 + ferocity / 1500

    damage = power*((1 - crit chance) + (crit chance * crit damage))

    Then I went to investigate the area between minimum power(full assassins) and max power(full berserker). The range of unbuffed power is 2136-2646(difference 510), and the range of unbuffed precision is 1961-2471(difference 510). The power range is significant because that is what the excel sheet's results are arranged by. Because, the only thing we ever want to know is how much berserker gear it is worth giving up for assassins and wise versa.

    Now to get the formula. crit damage in our case is a constant, power and crit chance are the only thing changing and they are bound by the following relationship(assuming we can keep trading precision <-> power freely):

    Precision = 2471-(Unbuffed Power - 2136)

    Which is basically just that 2471 max value for assassin geared with crit infusions, and then subtracting how many power points you have traded away your precision to get(unbuffed power - minimum power for full assassin = how much power above minimum you got).

    We putting the new precision formula and the constant for crit damage into the "damage" formula and we get an actual damage formula for trading precision vs power on gear and the relative damage output. Not gonna spam that here it is a huge mess to present, but you can click inside the excel if you wanna check for errors. I was after all pretty kitten tired when writing this and havent slept for couple of days. Hehe.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭

    Think about it like this.

    Power increases all damage. 200 damage is 20% So it's a linear increase rehardless of whether it crits or not.

    Ferocity is also a linear increase in damage, but only on attacks that crit.

    Precision decides how much use you get from your ferocity.

    What is meant by this is let's say you have 900 ferocity (900/15=60% + 150% base = 210%) and 45% crit chance. What these numbers tell you is that you will on average have 210% × 0,45 = 94,5% total extra damage. Precision and ferocity are related, power only enhances the value of your ferocity.

    Precision isn't even needed if you have other ways to bring up your crit chance. It's obvious power is the most beneficial stat, but when it comes to precision vs ferocity you need to start looking at cumulative values. Let's say 20 hits, let's start with base precision. Then it's (1000(random dmg value)×19)+(1000×1,5(base crit dmg)). This equals to 20500 dmg.
    Now we increase crit chance by 10%
    (1000×17)+(3000x1,5) 21500

    What happens if we give 10% to ferocity instead?
    (1000×19)+(1000×1,6)= 20600 which is 900 dmg less than you'd get from putting those points in precision. As you can see the bigger the interval the greater the disparity will become.

    Now it's important to notice precision requires 21 points in order to gain 1% more crit chance, while ferocity needs only 15 for an extra percent. Why is this important? Because critical damage already starts on 150%. The difference in scaling allows ferocity to not become overly overpowered as it's effectiveness is directly related to precision, and forcing this investment into precision lowers means stacking ferocity only will have low payoff. Not to mention skill coefficients that only rely on power. If you only invest 1000 in power you do 50% more damage, 75% on a crit. Say you hit for 1000 no power, invest 1000 power and you hit for 2000 dmg - on crit 3000. In order to match that in ferocity only, you need 300% crit damage which requires 2250 points in ferocity.

    Same with precision - the only time ferocity is worth more is when it exceeds the difference between a regular hit and a critical. So yes stacking ferocity can lead to harder crits - but at the expense of overall damage. This is why a 100% crit spec will suffer dps wise compered to all out power specs - you just can't reach the same numbers in the length of an interval, even though you will be in the lead at first. Think of it like a straight graph intersected by a climbing one that flattens 25% above (900 vs 1200 points). Also keep in mind both specs will through gear max out on ferocity, while the assassin spec will sacrifice power for precision, which on paper makes sense but skills scale only on power and this is why it loses out, because it gains 60% damage on each hit, but lose 25% of max possible damage and 25% of the skill coefficient.

    The math is easy.
    Prec: 75×10×2,1 = 1575
    vs
    Power: (100x5×2,1)+(100x5x1,5)=1050+750=1800
    Not even counting skill coefficients. For professions with low skill coefficients and rapid succession of hits, ferocity outperforms power given 100% crit chance.

  • Funky.4861Funky.4861 Member ✭✭✭

    Something which hasn't been mentioned yet is reflects. Yes, there are only a couple of niche builds (mes and guard primarily) but i have had a blast with my mes reflect build. A reflected projectile uses the power of the owner, but the crit damage and ferocity of the reflecter. This makes certain dungeon bosses quite easy, and is quite nasty against mobs/players with high power. The build uses assassins' gear with a small choice of runes which have ferocity as their main bonus, other fluff is up to the player :) The idea is to get above 90% crit chance (not just through gear) and max out ferocity. The power is still there, and 9 crits out of 10 hits on average is not too shabby.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    In what circumstances exactly?
    Because if solo OW, Assassin gear will be better than Berserker because on your own there are very few classes that can crit cap. Namely Guardian and Necromancer that don't benefit from more crit chance.
    But if you have the benefits of a full party/squad like Spotter, perma-Fury and Banner of Discipline, that number of Precision you need will be considerably smaller.

    Rev and especially with renegade can easily reach 100% crit.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    In what circumstances exactly?
    Because if solo OW, Assassin gear will be better than Berserker because on your own there are very few classes that can crit cap. Namely Guardian and Necromancer that don't benefit from more crit chance.
    But if you have the benefits of a full party/squad like Spotter, perma-Fury and Banner of Discipline, that number of Precision you need will be considerably smaller.

    Rev and especially with renegade can easily reach 100% crit.

    I meant that in Berserker Gear with Scholar runes, and no Precision food/utility or party buffs. I did forget Renegade as it's been months since I've played it, and generally isn't played with Berserker. Though while Renegade can do it easily, rev in general can't. At best they'll reach 90,5% without giving up something that's more influential to damage in general.

  • Biff.5312Biff.5312 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What about the fact that some trait lines feature traits where an effect is triggered by a successful crit? I would imagine that some professions there are builds that might favour maxing crit % and others where power is a far better choice.

  • @Biff.5312 said:
    What about the fact that some trait lines feature traits where an effect is triggered by a successful crit? I would imagine that some professions there are builds that might favour maxing crit % and others where power is a far better choice.

    Most of these traitlines have an internal cooldown, which means 100% crit chance and 50% crit chance trigger the trait almost an equal number of times. Going for precision because of such a trait is only really worth it if twice the crits also means twice the triggers.

    No skin should be exclusive to gem-store rng boxes.
    What really happened with mount skins

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2019

    Guys i just wanted to point out again since no one seemed to take notice.. in this thread i posted spreadsheet that allows you to know what balance of precision vs power is ideal with various buffs active. It's pretty major, haven't seen that elsewhere and is a solid tool.

  • @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Guys i just wanted to point out again since no one seemed to take notice.. in this thread i posted spreadsheet that allows you to know what balance of precision vs power is ideal with various buffs active. It's pretty major, haven't seen that elsewhere and is a solid tool.

    When I try to open it I always get an error. Don't know if it's on my end or there's some problem with the document.

    No skin should be exclusive to gem-store rng boxes.
    What really happened with mount skins

  • Imperadordf.2687Imperadordf.2687 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2019

    Average damage = (Base damage)x(1 - Critical Chance) + (Base Damage)x(Critical Chance x Critical Damage)

    You find the breakpoint there, rest is easy

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.