What's wrong with Ele (Weaver-specific)

Hello fellow Eles,

I thought it was time for another tread about the current (=poor) state of elementalist and - even more so - weaver.Ele very much has an identity crisis atm (and the past year or so) and it feels like Anet isn't quite sure yet, what they want to do with it.So I thought it would be a good idea to give them some collective feedback.

Personally Im more of a PvP-player, so I will focus more on that side of things.I will try to give my 2 cents on PvE aspects aswell tho, since I regularly do T4s and occasionally even raid (cleared all wings except wing 6).

Also....for anybody wanting to contribute I would like to remind you, that the goal of this thread is to point out "whats wrong with the spec" rather than everybody throwing different solution and "fixes" at each other....So I will try to refrain from doing that myself too much.

Furthermore..... this post WONT COVER TEMPEST at all!

1. General Gameplay

Overall I think the gameplay of weaver is fun. Seriously, I enjoy it. It's very fast paced with lots of different options and approaches to various situations.However, because of this fast paced playstyle, playing Weaver sometimes feels very stressful and exhausting, if you want to play it successfully.Minor kitten-ups can be very punishing...wheter its about DPS numbers or survivability. Which brings me to the next point.

For a melee spec, Weaver is exceptionally squishy. Lowest health pool and lowest armor tier make it super easy to be punished.For PvE grp content you are VERY reliant on your supports, while in solo content it really comes down to "who dies first"-scenarios more often than not.The reason for that comes mostly from the weavers NEED to stick to their target in order to do any dmg. We simply lack mid-range options (for sword and/or dagger specs that is).This is even more prevalent in PvP/WvW as melee ele specs are super easy to kite in comparison to literally any other melee type in the game.I already made a different thread for this specific issue --> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62577/pvp-sword-dual-skills-range-buff-pretty-please#latest

Area denial and AOE spam massively hinder your dmg output, cause of the aforementioned "who dies first" kind-of-gameplay. Fighting scourges or well necros is a good example for this issue. They pop desert shroud / stand in their own wells and you HAVE TO back off. You have no tools to put pressure on them while they can essentially throw free damage in your face. Fighting dps-guardians or holosmiths feels somewhat similar (altho not that bad)....it's just that there's times when you dont WANT to trade hits with somebody and dont really have the disengage/engage tools to effectively do just that.

If focus was a proper mid-range offhand wepons, this would probably be less of an issue.

2. Trait structures

A lot of ele traits seem outdated, with a good portion of traits just not being a viable option for any gamemode.I do however like how some traits interact with other traits outside their own traitline. Like woven stride and cleansing water or sunspot and elemental shielding.Then again ....it actually feels like this actually limits you more in your trait choices than not. Playing a weaver in competitive gamemodes always makes me feel like Im just one traitline short.

It also is feels very limiting (again, for PvP) to have arcane as such a mandatory pick. All of our relevant boons come from this single traitline. Swiftness, protection and mightstacking are so mandatory in PvP that picking arcane is a no-brainer. Especially since none of the other traitlines offer those boons on their own (without some other skill/trait interaction).

This will be the section where I most likely will break my own rule about "not throwing around specific solutions" the most. So bare with me.

2a) FireFire traitline is actually nice. The interaction between sunspot and smothering auras actually gives some defensive value, while still retaining the offensive theme of the the traitline.I wouldn't really change anything apart from maybe "pyromancer's puissance"....needs to do something extra to be able to compete with the other 2 I feel like.

2b) WaterWater is purely defensive. Not that there is anything wrong with that. BUT, then again, other than raw healing, this traitline really has to be paired with other specific traits to offer anything more. Cleansing water and Powerful auras are nice choices, but overall limit you in the choices you have from other traitlines. Again, this is not a bad thing per se.... on other classes I actually tend to complain about a lack of THIS kind of trait interaction....but it doesnt diminish the fact of limited building options.

2c) Air Kind of in a weird spot. I mean its purely offensive. But other than raw ferocity and some proc-dmg it really doesnt do much. Why is there no swiftness access on this traitline (Zephyr's Boon is a meme, lets face it)? And while ferocity is nice to have, you still have to invest massively into cirt chance to even consider picking up Air. Overall it needs more utility in form of swiftness and maybe CC....altho that seems to somewhat be Anets goal considering the last few patches.

2d) EarthIn general I think it's fine. Personally however, I would like to see a more "independent"approach to the stability and protection access on it. 2 seconds of stab is too little and protection on aura gain limits you - again - in your building choices. Also, I would like this traitline to be more of a defense / condition dps hybrid choice instead of a pure defense choice.

2e) ArcaneNow this is a big one, I think. As already said above....this is a mandatory pickup for any build in the competitive modes. It simply as all the relevant boons. No arcane means no swiftness, no protection and no might. Elemental Attunement needs to be broken up and divided to the other traitlines imo. Like have Empowering flame give 150 extra power AND give might on swapping to fire. Give Zephyr's Speed 150 precision AND swiftness on swap to air.

Also ....the mid-collumn traits seem somewhat meh. Arcane Ressurection is somewhat nice...but then again exposing yourself to cleave damage on the squishiest class in the game is a double edged sword. Elemental Contingency is a trait the player has literally no control over....The extra boons sure are nice to have....but its not a very reliable source for the specific ones (namely fury from the air proc).

For my last actual suggestion, I think it would be nice to rework Elemental Enchantment as well. Give it's "reduced attunement recharge" component to arcane prowess (that trait is super meh anyway since its reword) and merge it with Bountiful Power to look something like "Reinforced Potency" from Herald. This would open up a whole new grandmaster slot for Arcane, that can do really anything. Gonna close this arcane section with saying that Arcane Precision also needs to be actually useful.

2f) WeaverGenerally I think this traitline is mostly fine. Its rather independent from your other traitline choices and focuses more on counteracting the "weaknesses" of a base ele melee spec.It gives extra HP, Stability, some mobility, flexible extra stats. It genuinely is a well designed traitline. Personally I think it just just needs some "shuffling" and maybe something extra on "Elemental Pursuit", since that one is a bit underwhelming. For the "shuffling" part , I think that "Masters Fortitude" should be a minor trait...also drop the "when wielding a sword" requirement for the extra vitality bonus (limiting build choices n all that). Swap it with Elemental Refreshment and add something extra to that one.

3. Utilities

This also is kind of a big one. Most non-elite-spec utilities are super outdated and could need some love.Instead of going over each skill individually I ll try to keep this concise and try to address them in general by categories (with a few nitpicks here and there).

3a) CantripsBy far the most useful / only real choice in the competitive modes. They mostly are oriented to compesate eles' lack of defense and they are doing a great job at that.They really just need some minor tweaks imo. Armor of Earth could use pulsing boons on an interval; vapor form maybe a reduced CD. Personally I would like for cleansing fire to work more like guardian's "smite conditions"....on a much lower cooldown with less cleanses but deal additional burning if you cleanse stuff.

3b) Conjure weaponsNot going into specific skills here....but their overall usage feels clunky. In PvE, I actually find them stressful to use. You have to be very mindful of where to drop them on encounters where you constantly move. Also the fact that they despawn after 30 seconds when not picked up, just adds more needless complexity to the already hard(er) rotation. Plenty of people have already come up with suggestions that include the removal of the "drop for allies to pick up"-component at the gain of cooldown reduction or use of the "charge"-system....which I second very heavily.

3c) ArcaneNot really sure what to say about those. They are pretty straight-forward, mostly damage oriented skills. I really like the more "group oriented" approach taken towards Arcane Power....but it is a tad underwhelming tbh....maybe if it worked more like "glyph of empowerment" from druid (with a fixed duration rather than for X attacks), it would see more play but I dunno.

3d) GlyphsStorms and Elemental Power are fine and actually see some play. The other two are mostly useless. Nothing more to add here, I feel like.

3e) SignetsThe heal signet obviously is the only really useful one here. Overall ele signets need some love. Fire is somewhat fine (although it should give power instead of precision imo but w/e)....but then again, if you look at Warrior / Thief / Mesmer signets, they generally dont do enough imo.

3f) StancesI generally like the stances. Twist of fate doesn't really feel like a stance, since it doesnt really have any residual effects but since its a mandatory defensive skill for PvP I dont mind (never mind my bigotry). Primordial Stance is also a really good one. The others are kinda meh ....especially Unravel, but I guess Anet is aware of that as well. Its kinda weird, that we dont have a anti-condi stance, so Id like to see that one added to something. Other than that, stances are mostly fine tho.

4. Weapon skills

This section is a bit iffy. Its kinda hard to talk about those for weaver, when their main issues lie in the actual profession mechanic (dual attuning).The most "problematic" aspect of the dual attunment mechanic most certainly is the fact, that we dont get immediate access to our #4 and #5 skills.While this might not be a biggie in PvE, it actually is a rather big issue for PvP and WvW.

Unless you play 4d chess and know exactly what an enemy player attempts to do 8 seconds ahead of time, you will often find yourself caught in awkward positions.If you need access to Gale, Swirling Winds, Obsidian Flesh, Magnetic Wave, Burning Retreat, Comet, Unsteady Ground, Shocking Aura, Magnetic Aura or Static Field, you need it immediately...and not in 4-8 seconds from now (depending on your current main attunement). Camping an attunement cause you predict to need those abilities soon also isn't a viable strategy really. For the competitive modes, this is extremely poor design and Anet needs to face the fact, that taking "Unravel" wont change this.

There are some ideas floating around that could improve this. Like that attuning to the same element as your current main element should have a much shorter CD.And tbh, this probably is the best thing they could do. Obviously some trait interactions need to be looked at for this to be implemented (like electric discharge i.e), but when the alternative is to literally rework every weaponset avaiable to weaver, that definitely is the better end of the deal.

This about sums it up for me.Keep in mind that is my personal opinion, so there inevitably is some bias to it.

Feel free to share your thoughts on the current state of Elementalist/Weaver in whatever gamemode you play.

Also, please keep in mind to point out what specific problem you want to address when you post balance suggestions, since I think it is more important to point out what the actual issues are, instead of just throwing "fixes" around .....Yes, yes ....I im very comfortable in my glasshouse, never mind me.

Issue with ele in general, is that its design is pure hybrid be offense or defense, while traitlines are too specific/situational. Grandmasters are worth nothing by themselves, but only in conjunction with specific traits or in specific attunement. Ele is punished for its versatility, typical case of more is less. That's why Arcane is so good, because it's a versatile traitline that covers your 4 attunements, and give them a reason to be, apart from having more edulcorated weapon skills to combo to get anything out of them.

Now weaver inherits core ele's flaws, but at least it is still a versatile traitline that offers something to ele's mechanics of switching attunement.

My point is:Versatile mechanics (already balanced with higher CD and lower damage) + Rigid traitlines/options = innefficiency

If you add the simple fact that ele has to build somehow for base survival or for its skills/mechanics to be relevant, there is not much left for offense. So people just tend to push the survivability to the extreme because you'd still hit like a wet noodle anyway.

What weaver brought was removing the rigid gameplay of ele. Before you had to be in Fire to do AoE damage, Air for cc/single target burst, water for healing, now with dual attunements you have more freedom and thus more potency.

As for now, an element brings nothing to other elements, while they need to synergize for ele weapon set and gameplay to be effective, like how other classes traitlines work in synergy with their core mechanics. Only Arcane and Weaver traitlines do that.

Slow projectiles with big tells and low effects duel skills. Out side of that its about what is wrong with ele core that hold weaver back.

The "fix" anet is going with is to simply make weaver less of an ele and more of another class this is what is wrong with anet try at fixing it.

Well, like you say, this is a bias point of view born from your experience. I see myself disagreeing with you on quite a few point due to my own experience. I won't look through all those point but:

• Saying that the elementalist is the squishiest profession in game is wrong. The elementalist have access to damage mitigation tools that are amongst the most powerfull in game. To the point that a weaver is propably one of the sturdiest thing that you can oppose to a power build.
• Glyph/swiftness: While almost all profession have this ralying skill on excessively long CD and stupidly long cast time, glyphs are pretty good in game. The healing glyph, traited, provide a high amount of health for a very short CD with a boon on top of this. The elementals could be better but, objectively they are as strong as any summon in this game while being some time even more usefull than most summons. Glyph are also a huge source of swiftness, to the point that it's easy to build perma swiftness.
• Signets might feel weak but they are on such low CD that you can probably use them twice when other profession use theirs once. With their trait allowing the passive to stay even when the active is used, this make those skills pretty strong in fact.

However, I'll agree with what Mypuppy.8970 that "an element bring nothing to another element". In a lot of way the element's traitlines are to tightly build around the idea of going in and out of their element, while at the same time making these element a center of their effects. There is a contradiction in this that hinder builds from really being able to perform well.

Personnally I think that the elementalist traitline lack the effect of an old trait that disapeared long ago: Lingering element. Personnally I'd get rid of the CD reduction from the "X's training" trait serie and replace it by the lingering attunment effect for the traited element. The weapon skill CD can probably be put baseline and barely anyone would notice the change.

everything is wrong

For me, only one problem: you have to try hard like no one else to have the not even the same result as a thief who spams his auto attack (look at the thief rotation in the snowcrows benchmark).

The elementalist is a way too hard to play for such a result. I mean it is not worth to invest so much time and dedication to learn the most fragile and hardest class in the game when you see that the other professions are able to perform better with no efforts at all. And this is true for each game mode, not only the PvE content.

I can't agree with Earth.This spec is a mess. Okai you read traits one by one and you're like "it's fine, it's good" but it is not.Diamond skin : worst condicleanse ever : need you to be hit, 1sec ICD, only work with >75% life, that means if you don't play bunker with toughness and vitality it is trash.Stone Heart : you need to stay in earth, but you'll need to swap to water/air for condicleanse and heals, fire/air to dps... ; it's insane, this trait is just a brain teaser "I"m in trouble, should I stay in earth to not be hit too hard or I swap attunements to get heals, boons, endurance, pressure ... ";2sec stab when you swap to earth, ... it's okai ... could be longer or 2 stacks.2sec protection with auras, TWO SECONDS ! That is not like we have access to many auras with core elem, that means if you don't play bunker tempest it is trash.The lesser armor earth: is a breakstun, but doesn't proc when you're disabled. Good ;) It procs at the same threshold than the Arcane shield and weaver ston stance. Good ;)+5% bleeding dmg, +20% duration ... it is good ... before you compare the trait with all the others classes' "condi"specs.

So few boons and so few active sustain and cleansing ( for a tanky spec, it's very good ;) ;) ;) ), so few synergy between the traits, with the others specs, with the others attunement than F4...The spec is a niche, the spec is useless apart from bunker tempest. Bunker Tempest that already need water spec to share auras ... Or you sacrifice better spec like water/arcane or you play with zero DPS zero pressure.

Edit: all specs are mess. No good synergy bewteen traits, between specs; focused on their own attunement and not "general" play, not enough traits on utility skills (like, lesser glyph, lesser signet, or "when you use a healing skill"...).You swap attunement, good job you have just lost half your traits. But it's DYNAMIC, it's FUN :p :p you play like a real pianist <3 <3 but piano breaks everytime you touch a key.

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:I can't agree with Earth.This spec is a mess. Okai you read traits one by one and you're like "it's fine, it's good" but it is not.Diamond skin : worst condicleanse ever : need you to be hit, 1sec ICD, only work with >75% life, that means if you don't play bunker with toughness and vitality it is trash.Stone Heart : you need to stay in earth, but you'll need to swap to water/air for condicleanse and heals, fire/air to dps... ; it's insane, this trait is just a brain teaser "I"m in trouble, should I stay in earth to not be hit too hard or I swap attunements to get heals, boons, endurance, pressure ... ";2sec stab when you swap to earth, ... it's okai ... could be longer or 2 stacks.2sec protection with auras, TWO SECONDS ! That is not like we have access to many auras with core elem, that means if you don't play bunker tempest it is trash.The lesser armor earth: is a breakstun, but doesn't proc when you're disabled. Good ;) It procs at the same threshold than the Arcane shield and weaver ston stance. Good ;)+5% bleeding dmg, +20% duration ... it is good ... before you compare the trait with all the others classes' "condi"specs.

So few boons and so few active sustain and cleansing ( for a tanky spec, it's very good ;) ;) ;) ), so few synergy between the traits, with the others specs, with the others attunement than F4...The spec is a niche, the spec is useless apart from bunker tempest. Bunker Tempest that already need water spec to share auras ... Or you sacrifice better spec like water/arcane or you play with zero DPS zero pressure.

Edit: all specs are mess. No good synergy bewteen traits, between specs; focused on their own attunement and not "general" play, not enough traits on utility skills (like, lesser glyph, lesser signet, or "when you use a healing skill"...).You swap attunement, good job you have just lost half your traits. But it's DYNAMIC, it's FUN :p :p you play like a real pianist <3 <3 but piano breaks everytime you touch a key.

My sentiment, also.

Actual ele problem is that it's dev's don't play ele, don't know meta( in all game modes) and ignore all the feedback around it since HoT.

Trait Lines, Set of Weapons and Utilities and Skills.

1. Trait Lines: They provide nothing but either pure damage or pure support, which isn't the major problem. The issue is that a trait requires a certain condition to be met so it provide you with its effect, I played rev for a little but I noticed that when I used one ability only, I triggered multiple traits and was on 18 Might stacks and Fury - be it any weapon at any given time - I can trigger this trait's effect by doing so. For ele, the condition is attuning to that element that I traited for, to gain high damage multipliers from Air specialization, the condition is to be on Air specialization, so now ele (the class with so called 20 skills) is now locked into 1/2 attunements all the time because for them to make use of the traits, they need to succumb to its awful condition. Now say we are locked into 2 attunements, 10 skills, a weapon swap button, same as any other profession, it shouldn't be that bad, but it is since having twice the amount of abilities of any other profession, you need to be balanced through your cooldowns and damage/heal/effect of the skills, so now you not only deal less damage if you are using 2 attunements only but also you're held back by your cooldowns/ICDs/attunement cooldowns because the trait lines tend to lose their effectiveness outside of the aforementioned condition aka attunement which are balanced through cooldowns and effects. For Tempest, it was not ele tbh, you go through Fire and Air then Overload Air, and so on and so forth, or go for a little change Water/Air instead but yet Overload Air afterwards and wait for water to come of cooldown because of the long attunements cooldowns as well as the increased cooldown, and for the auras - they are mostly useless and even if they aren't, their uptime is 4s and cooldown ranges between 20-35s, anyone can wait 4s even if you timed things perfectly and then you are back to camping Water/Air and Overload nonetheless, the trait line itself feels good for ele, but the way Tempest makes use of the attunements and controlling a useless effect (so called auras) makes it boring and not worth investing that much into. For weaver, the concept of dual attuning is great and I love the lower cooldowns to allow swapping through attunements with ease, but the trait line is awful and the same goes for the utilities weavers came with... Why? Well, the trait line barely provides anything relating to the mechanic Weaver came with, most of it is how much damage you will deal when you have Swiftness boon or how fast you can get when also having the Swiftness boon, a boon that any class can provide, at any time, and for as long as they want it to last, or increased HP which shouldn't be solved through an e-spec, if a class is squishy then the mechanic they came with should help with the issue not the base stats of the core class, the trait line even rewards weavers with more damage when ignoring the e-spec's mechanic, FANTASTIC!! Now for the utilities, they are a joke and all eles and other classes' players can agree on, given the long cooldowns and useless effects except maybe for Primordial Stance which is still on a 25s cooldown and with a melee radius, also for weaver, sure you swap attunements faster but look at the core trait lines issues, you are locked into the same 2 attunements, only have 1-2 more skills but still the long cooldown, w-o-w!

• Allow ele trait lines to be universal, the conditions to be met for their effectiveness should be something else than the attunement itself, make the m apply effects related to the line but still the effect and damage shouldn't be taken away once one button, another attunement button, is pressed/ Introduce base stats for each attunement because weapon skills have zero effects now when not attuned for yet they are on extremely high cooldowns making ele fully trait/gear/utilize/attune to chieve the so called effect, sacrificing almost every other factor which is nothing but a lose-lose situation still. For Tempest, make auras something useful or at least don't make them the only effect from tempest's utilities, they should be secondary, allow Tempest to experience all attunements, not become a one trick bot. For weaver, the trait line and utilities need to focus on the mechanic a weaver came with: dual attuning.

2. Weapons: The weapons of both ele and engi are almost half of what other classes have, so if any of these weapons is useless, you are locked into 1/2 weapons only and still with no weapon swap, Scepter and Focus for example, they are dull and boring to play with, Staff is too slow for ranged action, and others are melee for a class that drops dead from a hit or two with no mobility/active defense or warning, so that eles can react and counterplay, yeah, you need to plan ahead but let's be real, other players also plan ahead and so your plan can go wrong many times and therefore you need to solve the situation of what's right now as your plan is no longer as useful.3. Utilities and Skills: Ele's utilities lack effects like vulnerability stacking, movement impairing stuff, disables or boons, they are mostly a number that lasts for a period and then vanishes until the cooldown is reset, and for the utility ones, you can't even stun break anymore on core ele. Allow ele's trait lines to help these utilities apply something beside the damage, or the utilties should have the effects built-in already. The same goes for the weapon skills, they lack the pressure of effects, damage isn't enough anymore unless its meteor'ing damage down on you and RNG works pretty well to give little frame for reaction.

• Ele needs fast paced weapons, needs less RNG for once, needs a weapon swap, needs built-in effects just like most weapons on other classes to apply pressure with other things beside the damage only and to protect themselves against what's incoming.

• Utilities and Skills: They need to provide other stuff beside a number and how long this number lasts and when will it up for use again, they are nothing but a damaging/healing number and that's it. For mobility and defense, core ele can no longer stun break which pretty much speaks for itself on getting cc locked on the yet squishy class. They both need to apply some pressure with effects such as: vulnerability, boons, boon control, disable, cc, etc. damage is not enough on its own unless it comes off as a huge chunk and with consistency, they need to provide utility such as stun breaks and mobility. Given the long cooldowns, they are not powerful relatively, for the attunements, they maybe can have an impact on the effects applied/provided - chill/heals/vigor when in water for example.

First, Ele is not in such a bad place as a lot of people say here. It is still viable on all game-modes, but the reward is just not on par with the effort or risk.

I think the main issue right now with ele is the waste of potential. The class concept and mechanics are great with room for a lot of different playstyles that are just not possible due to how things get pushed and balanced. A lot of utilities (conjures, cantrips, glyphs , signets) are stuck on 2012 mode and need a review on their mechanics, just as example:

• Armor of earth needs to pulse stability/protection instead of the current mode that can get striped while the effect itself is still active.
• Glyph summons need to have the CD starting on activation, not on death, so you can keep a summon active longer.
• Conjures need to use ammo mechanic (for the summoning) and summon only one weapon (in your hands if target at your feet, or in the ground if target elsewhere)

Traitlines need more synergy.We need more aura traits and more concise. Heal on aura should be on water, while aura-share should be on tempest (so tempest can use auras to support and core can use aura to sustain). We need more interesting aura traits. Traits that make auras pulse boons so we can actually make use of extended auras.

Fire traitline should not cleanse condtions. It should deal with them in a different way. Having fire auras pulsing resistance would make a nice different way to deal with condis (resisting instead of cleansing).

Arcane traitline should have the old lingering elements as a minor, making attunement bonuses linger for 4 seconds after attunment swap. This would make core ele so much more viable using two attunement lines and arcana to swap among the two keeping their benefits fully.

The two elite specs concepts are very nice (tempest stays longer in attunments to achieve big aoe effects, weaver swaps attunements faster to use dual skills and bonuses) but their traits are very pigeonholed. Why is the double attune trait in weaver a dps increase no matter what attunement you are on? It should give a bonus based on attunement so you can try to make a support weaver. Same thing for tempest! Why the shout trait just gives might on shouts? Why not different boons for each shout? CD reduction?

Elite spec traits need to get a bit more versatile like evasive arcana and elemental attunement, giving different effects for different attunements. This way we can explore more playstyles beside just dps.