Forum feedback is too emotionally invested to be worth a lot ..or anything

PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....

....PvErs ask to nerf others because they can "speedclear" something and their class apparently can't...Everyone complains when the game meta doesnt go their way. Everyone.

There is bias, strong bias behind every corner and there is no way to see some actual gameplay in action , you never know what class is being used by those who start these nerf threads. Players tend to forget way too easily what makes their profession strong and are ever ready to cover everything with a typical "L2P" argument , on the other side we see things being exagerated to an unbelievable level, hyperboles, anecdotal evidence and more.

Nobody likes to lose and everybody may think to be the hottest thing around on whatever class and when that get proved to be wrong...majority won't accept the hard truth : " We're playing a MMO and not a RPG with open world where you are the god like being".

The only positive aspect of the current state of the game is the attitude of the devs, they take forum feedback with a grain of salt and I hope they will continue along this way...because out o 100 nerf threads only 1 or 2 will be worth listening

@"Arheundel.6451" said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....

....PvErs ask to nerf others because they can "speedclear" something and their class apparently can't...Everyone complains when the game meta doesnt go their way. Everyone.

There is bias, strong bias behind every corner and there is no way to see some actual gameplay in action , you never know what class is being used by those who start these nerf threads. Players tend to forget way too easily what makes their profession strong and are ever ready to cover everything with a typical "L2P" argument , on the other side we see things being exagerated to an unbelievable level, hyperboles, anecdotal evidence and more.

Nobody likes to lose and everybody may think to be the hottest thing around on whatever class and when that get proved to be wrong...majority won't accept the hard truth : " We're playing a MMO and not a RPG with open world where you are the god like being".

The only positive aspect of the current state of the game is the attitude of the devs, they take forum feedback with a grain of salt and I hope they will continue along this way...because out o 100 nerf threads only 1 or 2 will be worth listening

Bruh this is what I have been saying.If last year is an indication of anything they need to listen to feedback from these forums even LESS.

They need to start playing their own game ( like why this isn't a thing I honestly don't know, because they have been off the mark on ALOT of things and it's baffling), and testing things thoroughly before releasing patches that do nothing to actually bring balance to the game.

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

What if you play a lot of different classes and are not invested in just 'my class'?

I play Mesmer, Engineer, Guardian, Elementalist, and Rev. Across these classes there are clearly specs outperforming other specs. It's not even a close thing, the difference in performance is large, if it was a close run thing I'd hold up my hands and go 'you know what x spec is better, but not by a large margin.'

I play mesmer, Condi mirage is fucking stupid, I dont feel invested in the class just because I play it, or a need to defend it. I can look at it objectively because I play a lot of other classes and specs. I like to think most players who play a lot of different classes and specs are similar.

@Chorazin.4107 said:What if you play a lot of different classes and are not invested in just 'my class'?

I play Mesmer, Engineer, Guardian, Elementalist, and Rev. Across these classes there are clearly specs outperforming other specs. It's not even a close thing, the difference in performance is large, if it was a close run thing I'd hold up my hands and go 'you know what x spec is better, but not by a large margin.'

I play mesmer, Condi mirage is kitten stupid, I dont feel invested in the class just because I play it, or a need to defend it. I can look at it objectively because I play a lot of other classes and specs. I like to think most players who play a lot of different classes and specs are similar.

You play condi mirage doing what?More than roaming/duel in PvP/WvW there is nothing you do better than a firebrand as support or ele as point holder, yes it's obvious that some professions will outperform others in certain task...that's why you play different classes in the first place no?!.

Yeah I know that everybody would his/her profession to be competitive in everything but then...that's not how MMO works and otherwise there would be no need to have 9 classes if everybody is good at everything, you could just use same base class and buy different skin from gemstore.

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

I notice that about 8/10 people who make threads like this are playing mesmers when I encounter them in-game.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

10/10 boonbeasts are laughing at the free pass they're getting because not killing people through condidamage reduces the amount of anger your build generates by at least 50%. Which directly leads to them still being buffed each balance patch despite being 5 of the top 10 last season maining boonbeast and it's clearly toxic towards the game mode.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

I don't main mesmer believe it or not, I am only trying to see past all this drama on the forum.It seems to me that all those who start nerf threads lost some kind of duel or got ganked by X profession and they come afterward on the forum to vent more than anything else, in the grand scheem of things a mesmer doesn't impact my games that much be it in pvp or wvw,

I don't believe even for a minute that a single player on any class can alter the result of a match from its initial assumption, what leads to defeats is always a mix of varius mistakes from all the team.

In the end of the days, a mirage may be the best duellist spec in the game but it's still only one class and not even that great at holding or support others, if nobody can really match a mirage during a game..maybe your team can play around it?

Even if the enemy team has multiple mirages, there are still specs in game which can make the life difficult for mesmers, maybe 1-2 of you should have switched from the start, even if no spec can truly win...some can hold long enough for help to come or you can focus on the points where the mesmer is no present.

In WvW, condi mirages may be the cancer ultima for roamers..but some specs geared with anticondi runes can make their life miserable and again in the grand scheme of things a single roamer shouldn't influence your overall game for the day,

I may be ranting in the wrong direction so correct me if I am wrong...don't all nerf threads always come from a 1v1 scenario?

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

Nerfing boonbeast would not stop people from ask for nerfs on ranger...because they get killed from range, I mean before boonbeast , people used to rant about rangers anyway so...nothing would really change as rangers would go back to sniping or druid bunker or whatever.

Even if ranger would fall out of favour with the whole meta thing..some other spec will take its place and people would start with nerf threads all over again...really if players are happy when winning their precious duels..they will be unhappy when losing them and 90% of them will come on the forum afterward asking for nerfs.

Are people looking for a game where nothing can kill them?....what even would be the point to play?...

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

Is anyone asking for nerfs on boonbeast? Look at the forums. 4 Mirage threads on page 1. More Mirage threads on page 2. One revenant thread. 1 warrior thread on page 2. The one boonbeast thread I saw literally no one agreed that boonbeast was strong.

@Arheundel.6451 said:I may be ranting in the wrong direction so correct me if I am wrong...don't all nerf threads always come from a 1v1 scenario?

No, not all.

I've advocated changes that had absolutely nothing to do with 1v1. Namely because certain parts of the game are objectively unhealthy like 100% boon duration in PvE.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

Nerf threads these days all tend to escalate out of contest; nerfs and buffs keep the game going but...people asking to alter the very nature of a class ..should not be listened.A warrior still supposed to tank your dmg, a mesmer still supposed to be a duel mage, a ranger still supposed to snipe you from long distance...the whole name suggests it....

I only wish people would understand this simple truth

@Arheundel.6451 said:The only positive aspect of the current state of the game is the attitude of the devs, they take forum feedback with a grain of salt and I hope they will continue along this way...because out o 100 nerf threads only 1 or 2 will be worth listening

Quoted for truth and props to devs for keeping it up.

@BadMed.3846 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

Speaks volume when an ele main tells you too many irrational nerf suggestions on forum isn't it?

Now can we drop this childish "you main this so you're bias huehue" attitude please.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

Threat? It was a simple question. Don't freak out.The damage bufffs went too far at some stage. Things need a nerf. Let's accept it.

@NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

Ele main means nothing. You have your sustain to worry about nothing.I suggest you drop your childish accusations and try to understand the point. Mesmer is a walking joke in this game. Holo, boonbeast, scourge all have gone too far previously doing too much damage. Nerfs are needed. Simple as that.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

The fact you have people in your thread trying to denigrate your talking points speaks volumes about the community and honestly proves you right.Good Job on that OP.Sadly it wont change people that clearly have an agenda against a profession they don't like or don't understand. We can only hope anet continues on the path of not taking any of the suggestions seriously or even consider them.As I said. It should be done ( if it is at all) less going forward.

@Arheundel.6451 said:The only positive aspect of the current state of the game is the attitude of the devs, they take forum feedback with a grain of salt and I hope they will continue along this way...because out o 100 nerf threads only 1 or 2 will be worth listeningThis games' esports scene died over half a decade ago. I wouldn't defend the path the devs are taking if it's the same one that killed the pvp scene.

@Solori.6025 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

Real suggestions get overlooked or argued into a state of derailment...

I made some on Tempest about improving the 1 stack of stab on overloading trait and to add atleast 1 stack of stab to aftershock (earth shout)..Give water overload the same love as guard staff and increase heal on pulse but decrease final heal and so on.. yea, all argued off topic into mes and boonbeast...

I guess I tried ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Clearly people still don't understand OP if they reply by saying "nerfs are needed". What OP argues is the amount of exaggerations and nerf "suggestions" on this forum is comical, mostly from people clearly lacked understanding on their targets and just want quick emotional venting.

But....what do I know about OP view...my sustain in lightning rod ele just meant I know nothing about the "walking joke" specs that must be obliterated :3

Interesting to see this thread from the op, refreshing and well said.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

You're giving cool headed responses, so I'll try to go out of my way to make my response not sound abrasive, which is hard for me to do sometimes.

1. I get what you're saying about drama. There are some posts that are made, that are rage vents.
2. However, most of the people in this forum are the same people who have been around since year 1. They are the kind of people with 10,000+ games played in pvp, who have at least 250 or so played on all classes they don't even main "bare minimum to finish achievements", who didn't just lose a duel or something, they played 300 matches in ranked in the previous season, against whatever it is they are trying to give serious feedback on. To encourage the idea that these people don't know what they're talking about, and that their statements are simply biased, is actually bias in itself to assume that ALL forum feedback is useless, even when coming from the people who possess the highest levels of knowledge, experience, and recognition of a current given meta.
3. You said about Mirage "even if no spec can truly win...some can hold long enough for help to come or you can focus on the points where the mesmer is no present" Ok my dude, if a class/build is so strong that no one can actually beat it 1v1, and the only thing they can do is hold long enough in hopes for someone to come help them, that means that said given class/build is winning everywhere he goes all of the time, and for his opponent's team to even match the weight of his class/build's potency, they must allocate 2 players to his 1 wherever he goes. Do you realize how powerful that is rotationally? Your own statement seems to me like something that should be reviewed in balance discussions.
4. About nerf threads coming from 1v1 perspectives -> Well.. it's not that simple when coming from the perspectives of people who are actually giving good feedback. For example, a Reaper is widely acknowledged as "being in a good place" right now, despite being THE worst 1v1 spec which Necros always are. But what it provides in team fights alongside of other Bruisers & Supports completely makes up for its lack of 1v1 presence. It's job role is to win team fights and it is meta at this, so in this perspective people are basing its concept of balance on how good it is at its job role. Now when you're talking something like a Condi Mirage, its job role is a 1v1 duelist so people are basing its concept of balance on how good it is at that job role, or in the case of Condi Mirage, how exceedingly good it is at other job roles that it isn't even designed to do, or how it has no real counters in the way that other builds have. Boonbeast falls into the same category of being too good at everything right now. Other classes/builds actually have drawbacks while using them. Example: A FB is only a Support, it has terrible damage and terrible mobility and it's actually bad vs. DPS in 1v1. All Thief builds are excellent +ers but they are actually underperforming in straight 1v1 situations, they're terrible in team fights, if they land in the wrong spot it's immediate death, and of course they present little to no straight boon support to team mates around them. Ect.. Ect.. everything has drawbacks except Condi Mirage and Boonbeasts, which is why these are the classes being discussed so frequently in the forums right now. To brush this fact off as "bias drama" is pretty crazy ^^ Look, if we were to using a grading system to grade classes by their strengths in the game of conquest, it would look something like this: THIEF - Damage S - Sustain D - Mobility S+ - Support E, REAPER - Damage S - Sustain B - Mobility C - Support D, CONDI MIRAGE - Damage S - Sustain S - Mobility A+ - Support C, BOONBEAST - Damage A - Sustain S+ - Mobility B - Support B. ect. ect. ect. I'm not going into all of this in this thread bullet. Point being, if we were to create this list of every class and it's attributes as tied to conquest, you'll see that Condi Mirages and Boonbeasts are simply greatly overperforming with no drawbacks as compared to every other class.

So what you have to look for, is the difference between these two types of forum users:

• The people who give subjective feedback with their opinions and then leave it alone.
• And then the people who rarely give subjective feedback, but just defend something over and over, while attacking other user's subjective feedback.

^ Therein lies the key to figuring out where the real feedback is, and who the people are that are just stirring up drama.

@Solori.6025 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

The sad part is that learning other class recommendations are from previous years and are getting lame. We know the game balance is more broken than ever. Especially, when we see mess like condition mirage in game. Calls to nerf these stupidity OP class mechanics is the only way forward.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:PvPers ask to nerf what kills them and....Do you main Mesmer?

1. I get what you're saying about drama. There are some posts that are made, that are rage vents.
2. However, most of the people in this forum are the same people who have been around since year 1. They are the kind of people with 10,000+ games played in pvp, who have at least 250 or so played on all classes they don't even main "bare minimum to finish achievements", who didn't just lose a duel or something, they played 300 matches in ranked in the previous season, against whatever it is they are trying to give serious feedback on. To encourage the idea that these people don't know what they're talking about, and that their statements are simply biased, is actually bias in itself to assume that ALL forum feedback is useless, even when coming from the people who possess the highest levels of knowledge, experience, and recognition of a current given meta.
3. You said about Mirage "even if no spec can truly win...some can hold long enough for help to come or you can focus on the points where the mesmer is no present" Ok my dude, if a class/build is so strong that no one can actually beat it 1v1, and the only thing they can do is hold long enough in hopes for someone to come help them, that means that said given class/build is winning everywhere he goes all of the time, and for his opponent's team to even match the weight of his class/build's potency, they must allocate 2 players to his 1 wherever he goes. Do you realize how powerful that is rotationally? Your own statement seems to me like something that should be reviewed in balance discussions.
4. About nerf threads coming from 1v1 perspectives -> Well.. it's not that simple when coming from the perspectives of people who are actually giving good feedback. For example, a Reaper is widely acknowledged as "being in a good place" right now, despite being THE worst 1v1 spec which Necros always are. But what it provides in team fights alongside of other Bruisers & Supports completely makes up for its lack of 1v1 presence. It's job role is to win team fights and it is meta at this, so in this perspective people are basing its concept of balance on how good it is at its job role. Now when you're talking something like a Condi Mirage, its job role is a 1v1 duelist so people are basing its concept of balance on how good it is at that job role, or in the case of Condi Mirage, how exceedingly good it is at other job roles that it isn't even designed to do, or how it has no real counters in the way that other builds have. Boonbeast falls into the same category of being too good at everything right now. Other classes/builds actually have drawbacks while using them. Example: A FB is only a Support, it has terrible damage and terrible mobility and it's actually bad vs. DPS in 1v1. All Thief builds are excellent +ers but they are actually underperforming in straight 1v1 situations, they're terrible in team fights, if they land in the wrong spot it's immediate death, and of course they present little to no straight boon support to team mates around them. Ect.. Ect.. everything has drawbacks except Condi Mirage and Boonbeasts, which is why these are the classes being discussed so frequently in the forums right now. To brush this fact off as "bias drama" is pretty crazy ^^ Look, if we were to using a grading system to grade classes by their strengths in the game of conquest, it would look something like this: THIEF - Damage S - Sustain D - Mobility S+ - Support E, REAPER - Damage S - Sustain B - Mobility C - Support D, CONDI MIRAGE - Damage S - Sustain S - Mobility A+ - Support C, BOONBEAST - Damage A - Sustain S+ - Mobility B - Support B. ect. ect. ect. I'm not going into all of this in this thread bullet. Point being, if we were to create this list of every class and it's attributes as tied to conquest, you'll see that Condi Mirages and Boonbeasts are simply greatly overperforming with no drawbacks as compared to every other class.

• The people who give subjective feedback with their opinions and then leave it alone.
• And then the people who rarely give subjective feedback, but just defend something over and over, while attacking other user's subjective feedback.

I fully agree with you.

The truth is I am concerned with the way balance may be handled in the upcoming patches and the future. Up to this point they have been mostly on target with some questionable choices ( like the buffs to Dolyak stances over optimization of SB traitline where 2/3 of the traits never see any use anywhere).

We don't want a game where the devs focus entirely on balances number over what makes the game fun to play in the first place, when you extend those nerfs to the core values of a class...that's where you make the game unfun for a portion of the playerbase, do that enough times and you'll find yourself with a ghost town.

We all want a balanced game..but the game should be also fun to play for anybody regardless of the class played

I think people in general are too emotionally invested. In forums, In game, In real life... why can't people just chill out a bit? We'll all die anyway.