A minor The All discussion thread... spoilers.. enter the rabbit hole... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

A minor The All discussion thread... spoilers.. enter the rabbit hole...

cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 21, 2019 in Lore

Going back through the season and seeing the most recent vision of the all with the orbs, it definitely looks like the deep sea dragon's orb was the one that was glowing. I guess I never really noticed how obvious it was until looking at a still image of it and the other orbs. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/b1/The_All_(The_Machine).jpg

So, if the orbs are in this placement:

water dragon - kralk
mordremoth - Zhaitan
primordus - jormag

Then wouldn't the dragon that has to be replaced to keep the scales from tipping too far immediately be Zhaitan or Kralk? I feel like this is even more reason as to why Aurene has to be the only resolution. If the pale tree simply replaces Mordremoth then we would have 3 on the left and 1 on the right. If something gets killed and we don't have a replacement then we have 2 on on the right and 1 on the side.

I also find it interesting that Zhaitan, Kralk, and Jormag are on the right and are known only for corruption to gain minions. Where as Mordremoth, Primordus, and potentially the deep sea dragon can actually forge their own right? Or am I missing something here? (According the wiki it lists Primordus capable of corruption which I didn't realize. I guess all dragons are? More speculation on this later...)

And I wonder what the intention of showing the water dragon's orb rising in the cinematic this still was taken from is if our main focus was going to be on Kralk.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:The_All_(texture).png

Just to map out the connections between the dragons with the above picture.. we have lines between....

DSD - Kralk.
DSD - Jormag
Primordus - Kralk
Mordremoth - Zhaitan.

To further note - Kralk is only connected to the deep sea dragon and Primordus. And the deep sea dragon is connected to Jormag and Kralk.

Upon further thought - if you trace the lines between them and get rid of the ones that are already dead you have

DSD-----------------------------KRALK
x
PRIMO JORMAG

So from that it would seem logical to draw the conclusion that:

The only remaining link Primordus has to anyone another dragon per the All diagram is Kralk. And the only link Jormag has per diagram is DSD. But the deep sea dragon isn't at risk of being killed at the moment, leaving Jormag as safe so-to-speak.

It would seem, that if the balance is created by keeping the elder dragons in opposition on the diagram/scales with their direct link then Kralk is in fact the spot in the all that has to be replaced and it isn't just a matter of the number of dragons on each side being even as it is those direct links said dragons have to the others. Zhaitan and Modremoth were only linked to each other with a line per the diagram, meaning that even if one of them were replaced it could potentially still mean that the balance is skewed. We would have either killed Kralk leaving Primordus unlinked, or left Kralk alive and left Mordremoth or Zhaitan's replacement without a direct link to any others. And given that Zhaitan and Mordremoth could essentially be symbolized as life and death domains of the all, that could imply even more unforeseen problems if one of them is taken over and unbalanced.

It's also interesting to note that an inner pyramid at the top, but not at the bottom. I'm not sure what to make of that, but the inner pyramid is formed entirely by lines excluding Primordus and Jormag. This doesn't really give me any ideas but the choice of making this aspect of the diagram asymmetric is interesting to me. Especially considering the emphasis on the pyramid collapsing in the vision in which the first image is taken from. Any thoughts on this in particular? It would also seem strange and seemingly intentional considering the reason there isn't a matching pyramid at the bottom is because there isn't a line drawn between Primordus and Jormag.

Now, examining the circles in the diagram we have

Deep sea, Mordremoth, Primordus sharing the larger orb on the left.

Kralk, Zhaitan, Jormag sharing the larger orb on the right.

Is this larger circle that they share indicative of a larger sphere of influence that each of those dragons has access to? If we simplify the dragons down to the elements they posses or use as weapons we have -

Deep sea - water/?, Mordremoth - life/mind, Primordus - fire/? - Trying to counter the blow train of thought but reaching a little - fire excels the state of something, water can speed growth and nourish and life is just... well...ongoing existence.

Kralk - air/crystal, Zhaitan - death/shadow, Jormag - ice/cold - interestingly - crystallization is the solidification of something, death is the complete end of something, and cold slows the state of something.

Over simplification - but is there anything we can draw from this that would imply what influence the larger spheres each of these sides represent? Perhaps the larger spheres could represent some aspects of time or the general balance of existence. But applying that logic in contrast to my earlier mention of the diagram and links, we would have -

So applying these shaky oversimplifications to the general imbalance of Tyria if Kralk dies we're left with:

DSD - water which is kind of hard to simplify in this sense with its impact on said balance.
Primordus with fire which can either be a catalyst or complete destruction - also a bit shaky.
And Jormag with ice which could either slow or completely freeze.

I'll leave this for now because it's becoming a bit of a stretch to make sense of.

Back to the circles in the picture -

If it's possible that the circles all represent spheres of influence, tracing the lines:

Kralk and DSD share two specific circles at the top - two orbs of influence.
Each dragon has a smaller potential orb of influence within their primary.

3 dragons on each side all share 4 other smaller orbs within the larger orb that they share on each side.

And interestingly the two orbs between Primordus and Jormag aren't linked to anything except DSD and Primordus respectively.

Another note is that Mordremoth and Zaitan each have 3 additional minor orbs connected only to them - which would make sense if they represented life and death as I would suspect them to be weighed far more heavily in terms of balance.

Also - the lines between Kralk and Primordus run through two spheres of influence similar to the orbs between Kralk and DSD. And DSD to Jormag as well. Implying that Not only do Kralk and DSD have a link to the same two spheres of influence, but DSD and Jormag and Primordus and Kralk.

When you take this into account - we only really know the influences of the two dead dragons - who were only linked to themselves. Shadow/death. Mind/life. We can make guesses about Jormag's other based on his behavior and the diagram might imply that this influence is the one that DSD also shares.

You can speculate that Kralk's main is crystal as he is the crystal dragon - but it could also technically be air. Applying what we know from Kralk and Primordus so far, what can we infer about their two shared orbs?

To finish off this section: Kralk and DSD also have lines running down through two smaller orbs extending all the way down to the two bottom orbs. DSD's line runs through the two smaller orbs just outside Mordremoth's area and connecting to the right left medium sized orb. Kralk mirrors this with the two small orbs outside of Zhaitan and ending through the bottom right medium sized orb.

Applying all of this to what we've seen in game :
Death and vine touched destroyers
I believe we've seen vine and death touched Jormag minions.

I don't think we've seen any vine-touched minions of Kralk have we?

If you try to apply these to the orbs we see in the diagram and common links, it begs the question as to why. Have they not gotten around to creating a vine touched branded creature or is there a reason? It would make sense that we see a death branded minion because Kralk and Zhaitan are on the same side. But we've seen vine and death of Jormag and Primordus minions and they are on opposing sides with no line on the diagram running through shared spheres. It's what Primordus and Jormag have in common in this case in that unlike Kralk and DSD - they do not have lines moving to the middle north convergence as Kralk and DSD do to the middle south convergence.

Or - is the link that Kralk shares with DSD what's preventing him from creating vine-touched minions and the fact that Jormag and Primordus don't have a link allows them to do so?

Essentially, in this big I'm trying to determine if there is it predesigned which dragon gets access to another dragon's domain/sphere/abilities and could it potentially be indicated based on the details of this diagram.

Temporarily jumping back to the lines in the diagram:

Note that Water and Ice are drawn with lines to one another, as are Crystal/Air and fire. DSD and Kralk are linked which could be Water and crystal.

Water can become ice but ice can also become water.

And sand becomes crystal with extreme heat. (Stretching a bit here too to draw some connections.) Air puts out fire, but can also spread fire. So that's a little iffy or my brain is slowly dying from this somewhat insane examination.

So on this note: If we assume the lines can imply the mixing of aforementioned symbolism/elements:

DSD and Kralk - Air line to Water = line drawn from DSD to Jormag and Ice.
Kralk and DSD - Water line to Air = line drawn from Kralk to Primordus - ??? Humidity? Kind of hit a stop here.
What can we draw from this train of thought as to why Primordus and Jormag do not have a line drawn between them?
Well:
A fire line to ice would technically become water but ultimately become air. Thus having a line going - Primordus - Jormag - DSD wouldn't be accurate.

                   A line from ice to fire would result in water - fire to ice would result in air - Arguably they could both result in water or both result in air. This could explain why there isn't a line between Primordus and Jormag.

So - that being said - perhaps the inner pyramid on the top of the diagram isn't mirrored at the bottom because the more necessary parts of this equation are Water - Air - Life - Death but heat and cold being taken out of the equation leaves water and air permanently as they are. Expanding on this - the more life there is in the equation - the more water and air being consumed - the more death - the less water and air being consumed. So: following this logic, Kralk would be the ideal dragon to replace given that life and death in this equation have been negated creating balance for the rest.

Note, and I may have mentioned this before and forgot because I've been at this for awhile - But Kralk and DSD represent Water and Crystal respectively - both tools for reflection and potentially - one of the two orbs shared by the line drawn between them could potentially wind up being prophecy but we don't know enough about the water dragon to know. Water and air also share similar ability to move objects. Flowing with water or blowing like wind. It's also interesting that Kralk and Primordus share a line and are equally destructive power. To elaborate - the deep sea dragon's destruction in relation to water can overrun/flood/wash away but not disintegrate as can Kralk's lightning or for that matter his ability to crystalize. Jormag can freeze and slowly destroy things but can't burn things to a crisp or create as much of a molecular? change as Primordus and his heat/fire.

Now, because I've probably lost everyone long before this point and I've honestly just lost track:

If I wanted to dive into the gods and their relation to the all:

Could we speculate that the three orbs on the outside of Mordremoth and Zhaitan are as follows:

Lyssa - water
Melandru - earth/life - Mordremoth
Balthazar - fire/destruction

Dwayna - air
Kormir/Abaddon - shadow/secrets -Zhaitan
Grenth/Dhuum - death/cold/ice

This part is obviously a bit of a stretch as well and classifies them simples them a bit too much. It's also difficult because some of these have could be easily debated. Having better knowledge of the gods would help me out during this part because I'm a little fuzzy on a lot of the details. Listing brief descriptions from the Wiki for each to help pinpoint possible relations to the diagram

Lyssa - beauty, water, illusion.
Grenth - death, ice, destruction, mortality, judgment. potentially opposes lyssa.
Balthazar - war, fire, challenge.
Dwayna - healing, air, life.
Abaddon - watery depths, knowledge, magic. While Kormir - order, spirit, truth.
Melandru - nature, earth, growth.

So upon reading these descriptions it's hard to apply them to the diagram. The only real way to place them in a respective circle would be to simply align them as
Mordremoth outer smaller circles - Lyssa, Dwayna, Melandru because they all represent life.
Zhaitan - Balthazar, Kormir, Grenth.

For better visualization -

Lyssa - Balthazar
Dwayna - Kormir
Melandru - Grenth

This order could be a bit strange but would make the most sense if there was any in any of this but mainly just for a few and it would be a stretch. Examples

Lyssa and Balthzar connected like the line between Kralk and DSD

Dwayna and Kormir - makes less sense - but Dwayna in opposition to Zhaitan does a little.

Melandru against Balthzar doesn't, but Melandru's shrine (Sun's Refuge) conveniently being a safe haven in our fight against Kralk does.

Grenth - in opposition of Lyssa per descriptions above - illusions vs casting off illusions.

Lyssa, Dwayna, Melandru on the side of life.

Balthzar, Kormir, Grenth on the side of death. Keep in mind that Kormir and Grenth both replaced other gods while Lyssa gained water which originally belonged to Abaddon. With how much the pantheon has changed and the domains amongst them have changed, it would be difficult to really place them anywhere that makes any complete sense.

Anyway, that's all I can handle for the night and this will probably be a ghost thread before it's even discussed but it was kind of fun mapping it all out and thinking about it.

I do firmly believe after writing this post though maintaining what slow decay of balance we have depends on replacing Kralk more than simply replacing just any elder dragon. And having Aurene be said replacement means an even better balance because if she were to be this undead crystal dragon - perhaps there's more potential for to balance the spheres that belong to the right side. And who knows, perhaps Aurene transferred some of her Mordremoth magic-goodness to Caithe to pass onto the pale tree after all. That way the pale tree can work towards becoming a Mordy replacement at some point after all while Aurene also passes the Mordremoth bit she has on the right side back to the left side where it was originally. That way they replace Kralk, bring back Aurene, and plant the seed of the pale tree becoming a mordy replacement at some point if they need it further down the line. Who knows. shrug

Comments

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Since the topic is about coincidences, my 2 cents.
    1 . Theres a symmetry between the 2 dead dragons. they are in the middle.
    2. The 4 lasting are almost "elementalists"(Water, Crystal, Fire, Ice).

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I guess you could break it down as "positive" energies on the left and "negative" energies on the right.

    Going further, you could arguably say of the corner spheres that the diagonals between them represent the elements of water and fire, while the verticals represent the elements of earth and air.

    The middle ones have a strong opposition, and weaker bonds with the others.

    If I was describing them as principles, I'd go with
    * S: Wet (Water/Earth)
    * M: Fertile (Mind/Life)
    * P: Hot (Fire/Earth)
    * K: Dry (Air/Fire)
    * Z: Decaying (Shadow/Death)
    * J: Cold (Air/Water)

    But I don't know if there is really an intended pattern. It would map somewhat to D&D inner planes cosmology (the elementals, obvious enough, life/death being positive and negative energy, and mind/shadow being the ethereal and shadow planes).

    It would mean we lucked out in taking out the two we did, since the impact is still likely to be balanced, though more precariously so.

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