D/D weaver video that you guys wanted. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

D/D weaver video that you guys wanted.

Build link: Pack rune Setup~
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAoYncMA94i14CG5CM5iFTAjoCEAaA3j528buoKWADBA-j1RGABRp8LhTAAd6BA4BAAz+DPq+TeKB3MEAMBgVVqqqKpA2amG-w

Build link: Aristocracy rune setup~
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAoYncMA94i14CG5CM5iFTArYKWADBEVgAQD4eM3mfzA-j1RGABPq+TCnAgoU+RneAAeAAst/QeKBDAgAcz2MAu5Nv5Nv5NrNv5Nv5Nv5Nv5NvZpA2amG-w

Here's the video of some game footage you guys asked for.

I didn't really have a lot of game time put into the video, since i started making it over the past two days, & some of these weren't my best plays, I was kinda tired the other night. BUT!
It'll give you a general idea of how i play the build.

enjoy: https://youtu.be/K0OJUZInTuk

Comments

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly it's not a bad concept and I'd go as far and say that it's viable...it's not cheese level like 90% of meta builds and you can have your own line of victories, against a s/d weaver I'd say it's 50/50 at equal skill.

    You pull out more dmg than a sword weaver but you have less defensive rotations making you more susceptible to ganking, you propose a comfortable playstyle ...I strongly believe it would shine more than s/d during group fights..yeah that would be the strong point : teamfight potential as your team can lock down enemies for the big dmg combos...in a 1vs1 scenario I still recommend s/d because a couple of dual skill on d/d don't do just enough for me : grinding stones and ashen blast.

    All in all, it's a good build to run

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • kornfanxxx.9143kornfanxxx.9143 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Honestly it's not a bad concept and I'd go as far and say that it's viable...it's not cheese level like 90% of meta builds and you can have your own line of victories, against a s/d weaver I'd say it's 50/50 at equal skill.

    You pull out more dmg than a sword weaver but you have less defensive rotations making you more susceptible to ganking, you propose a comfortable playstyle ...I strongly believe it would shine more than s/d during group fights..yeah that would be the strong point : teamfight potential as your team can lock down enemies for the big dmg combos...in a 1vs1 scenario I still recommend s/d because a couple of dual skill on d/d don't do just enough for me : grinding stones and ashen blast.

    All in all, it's a good build to run

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Yeah first and foremost its a squishier, but more heavy handed build compared to sw/d, with a more complicated learning curve.

    Your right, team fights are where the build really get's its punches in, It has alot of mass CC. and some of the animations the build have can be predictable, which make landing your shots in easier when your in a group fight.

    As far as dueling goes, Yeah, Sw/D has easier "twitch" reactionary skills in riptide & earthen vortex, whereas with dagger, your looking at a more complicated process to dodge incoming blows via weapon skills, which also have slightly longer cooldowns.

    The builds biggest weakness is going to be condi mirages, rev's who know how to kite, & a warrior who's got decent stab uptime in a 1v1, not saying the matchups are impossible except for maybe mirage, but its an uphill fight. everything else isn't too bad.

    Either way, I wasn't trying to shake up ele's place in the meta rankings, I really just wanted to show players that running sword/dagger weaver wasn't the only option they have in spvp & wvw.

    here's some number's i've gotten when my d/d weaver mechanics were on point. better than my video anyways. It's capable of alot. it's really up to the player & their ability to properly use unravel charges at max effectiveness.

    https://imgur.com/a/5xKlelV

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2019

    Okay, I had a look at your video - and I was not really surprised tbh. :tongue: I only messed around a little with D/D and never liked unravel - still don't -, so I am still no expert with it. But the video helped a lot.

    It is kinda solid. Indeed more damage than mender S/D (what hasn't though?), can really land some punches in team fights and +1 situations, is probably even better in 2on2 scenarios because it can not be ignored like mender S/D. So it has a little different role, different advantages than the common S/D.

    Now come the "buts". :wink: Your enemies in the video are quite bad. You repeatedly hit with long casttime skills, they don't dodge, don't kite. Especially the PVP game, that was some very bad gameplay there. But let's have a look at the build:

    • You mentioned less condi cleanse, which makes you very vulnerable to condi mirage (and scourge in team fights). One of those would be a soft counter, two would overwhelm you completely and make you a slower thief in that game.
    • No lightning flash, because you need unravel (and Primordial Stance for damage and stab, I guess?). That takes a lot of mobility for fullfilling a proper +1 role and also escapability. Teleports are incredibly powerful because you can use verticality.
    • A little connected to this: No verticality, because no LF and Polaric Leap. Makes it indeed very very kiteable.
    • And the biggest problem: Who would ever take a D/D ele, when a holosmith, warrior or condi mirage would kinda fit the same role, but a lot better? :tongue: You might win against holo in 1on1, but he has much more team fight and +1 potential. Warrior might be tough, but he can outsustain a lot more classes and has more mobility. Condi mirage has better 1on1, team fight support and mobility.

    So it is a solid build, it can definitely play its role and as long as you have fun and don't mind worse players being able to outplay you because of meta builds - that's great and good. But S/D weaver has that side noder role, where it is better - and actually comparable to meta builds (while not being able to do anything else indeed). That is why this is the only semi-viable ele build out there - and it will stay like this.

    But thanks anyway for sharing your build, nice video (except the music :tongue:) and all the information on it! I think you know the strengths and weaknesses quite well, but for high ranked play, it is lacking just a little. If Unravel would be some other mechanic for weaver - attuning to the same element only has a 1s CD for example - and you could use LF, that might just be it to give it a proper +1/2on2 role.

    Have fun with it and a good day! :smile: And if you play it next season, tell us how high you get!

  • @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Okay, I had a look at your video - and I was not really surprised tbh. :tongue: I only messed around a little with D/D and never liked unravel - still don't -, so I am still no expert with it. But the video helped a lot.

    It is kinda solid. Indeed more damage than mender S/D (what hasn't though?), can really land some punches in team fights and +1 situations, is probably even better in 2on2 scenarios because it can not be ignored like mender S/D. So it has a little different role, different advantages than the common S/D.

    Now come the "buts". :wink: Your enemies in the video are quite bad. You repeatedly hit with long casttime skills, they don't dodge, don't kite. Especially the PVP game, that was some very bad gameplay there. But let's have a look at the build:

    • You mentioned less condi cleanse, which makes you very vulnerable to condi mirage (and scourge in team fights). One of those would be a soft counter, two would overwhelm you completely and make you a slower thief in that game.
    • No lightning flash, because you need unravel (and Primordial Stance for damage and stab, I guess?). That takes a lot of mobility for fullfilling a proper +1 role and also escapability. Teleports are incredibly powerful because you can use verticality.
    • A little connected to this: No verticality, because no LF and Polaric Leap. Makes it indeed very very kiteable.
    • And the biggest problem: Who would ever take a D/D ele, when a holosmith, warrior or condi mirage would kinda fit the same role, but a lot better? :tongue: You might win against holo in 1on1, but he has much more team fight and +1 potential. Warrior might be tough, but he can outsustain a lot more classes and has more mobility. Condi mirage has better 1on1, team fight support and mobility.

    So it is a solid build, it can definitely play its role and as long as you have fun and don't mind worse players being able to outplay you because of meta builds - that's great and good. But S/D weaver has that side noder role, where it is better - and actually comparable to meta builds (while not being able to do anything else indeed). That is why this is the only semi-viable ele build out there - and it will stay like this.

    But thanks anyway for sharing your build, nice video (except the music :tongue:) and all the information on it! I think you know the strengths and weaknesses quite well, but for high ranked play, it is lacking just a little. If Unravel would be some other mechanic for weaver - attuning to the same element only has a 1s CD for example - and you could use LF, that might just be it to give it a proper +1/2on2 role.

    Have fun with it and a good day! :smile: And if you play it next season, tell us how high you get!

    Thanks for the input. Frankly the more I watch the video I made the more I wish I waited a few more days to get some fights in that had more substance to them.

    Your right the pvp match was a steamroll, and I just wanted to play one or two to chuck in some damage floaters in the video in spvp to give people an idea of its cleave damage in spvp mode as well as wvw.

    Yes losing lightning flash & instant vertical movement does hinder the builds mobility in certain maps. However, it does have magnetic leap, which is a legitimate leap like guardian GS3, allowing you to bypass obstacles, and it's a HUGE distance jump too. Alot of cool things you can do with it.

    Scourges really don't present as much of a problem to me as mirages do, they may be condi based & corrupt boons, but I can CC chain Scourges for days and days. Mirages tend to kite, have no obvious animation for their I frames, and I just tend to blow cool downs that get evaded.

    I'd also argue this build has cleave that's competitive with holosmith or warrior, though not quite as front loaded or obvious, A big part of the builds damage is in its condi application, the burn & vuln pulses. I Will totally agree though that those other classes have better sustain tools than I do though. Elixer S/endure pain/shield 5 ect..

    I'm gonna continue to keep OBS Studio up in my gaming sessions, and catch some game play while I grind through ranked & roam in wvw. Those fights in my video definitely weren't anywhere near my best, and I had some bad luck running into opponents who weren't very talented.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:
    (...)
    Scourges really don't present as much of a problem to me as mirages do, they may be condi based & corrupt boons, but I can CC chain Scourges for days and days. (...)

    Everyone should win against scourge in 1on1. Well, every halfway proper build. :tongue:

    The problem is when they are clever, kite and use no port spots, stay with a support - Firebrand giving out stab - and smash you in team fights or 2on2 scenarios. A 2on2 you + any other class would always lose to FB + Scourge - assuming equal skill level. Good old S/D can keep the point against both forever, while of course not being able to kill anything either.

  • @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:
    (...)
    Scourges really don't present as much of a problem to me as mirages do, they may be condi based & corrupt boons, but I can CC chain Scourges for days and days. (...)

    Everyone should win against scourge in 1on1. Well, every halfway proper build. :tongue:

    The problem is when they are clever, kite and use no port spots, stay with a support - Firebrand giving out stab - and smash you in team fights or 2on2 scenarios. A 2on2 you + any other class would always lose to FB + Scourge - assuming equal skill level. Good old S/D can keep the point against both forever, while of course not being able to kill anything either.

    To be fair firebrand & scourge are like peanut butter & jelly in 2v2s.id argue a harrier brand played properly by itself could pressure a sw/D weaver enough to contest the point.

    Either way, the build doesn't need to be ran strictly in spvp, can be ran for small scale in Wvw as well, and does a pretty good job.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:
    To be fair firebrand & scourge are like peanut butter & jelly in 2v2s. (...)
    (...)

    Indeed, the comparison is not really fair. But two real power builds could burst someone down - like warrior and holo or core guard. :smile: Whether they can prevent the rezz is another matter and heavily dependant on skill level.

    Somehow every ele build has a "better" competitor for any role. But well. Makes us more special.

    For WvW I totally agree. I also think the build can shine there as a bruiser for small group fights and stuff, even though S/D profits from the possible stats there as well. But I don't really have the expertise in WvW. :tongue:

  • fuzzyp.6295fuzzyp.6295 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2019

    Great fights. I love seeing people try different builds and make it effective. D/D Weaver feels super complicated but you make it look easy. :D The only thing though, and this isn't a criticism of your game play, I just feel there wasn't anything you preformed in this video that D/D Core couldn't do on its own. I suppose thats not the point, the point is to just show that D/D Weaver is doable, but I just don't see the trade off. And thats just the problem with Ele atm... everything it can do, other classes just do better. :(

    Your damage numbers seemed a bit low too in WvW but I think thats kinda normal with full Cele gear. Have you tried swapping out some Cele gear for maybe Crusaders or something? Also, i'm curious if you had tried to make a build with Air and D/D Weaver with Lightening Rod. I always thought those might work well together since D/D has a lot of interrupts but I don't have enough hours on Weaver D/D to really know if it would work.

  • @fuzzyp.6295 said:
    Great fights. I love seeing people try different builds and make it effective. D/D Weaver feels super complicated but you make it look easy. :D The only thing though, and this isn't a criticism of your game play, I just feel there wasn't anything you preformed in this video that D/D Core couldn't do on its own. I suppose thats not the point, the point is to just show that D/D Weaver is doable, but I just don't see the trade off. And thats just the problem with Ele atm... everything it can do, other classes just do better. :(

    Your damage numbers seemed a bit low too in WvW but I think thats kinda normal with full Cele gear. Have you tried swapping out some Cele gear for maybe Crusaders or something? Also, i'm curious if you had tried to make a build with Air and D/D Weaver with Lightening Rod. I always thought those might work well together since D/D has a lot of interrupts but I don't have enough hours on Weaver D/D to really know if it would work.

    D/D weaver's going to have more aoe CC, stab uptime, has several forward moving Iframes in its weapon set & twist of fate, as well as higher potential for condi damage w/ primordial stance. just imagine your tools are a lot more in tune with the games's power-creep if you go weaver vs. core.

    yeah those wvw fights have had some fast forwarded footage in it, if i slowed it down it would be easier to see some of the crits.

    Yeah i've actually messed with lightning rod mauraders d/d weaver and its halarious how many times you can proc it. katabolic wind>unravel>shocking aura>transmute>updraft>earth attunement(hopefully still unravel buff up)>earthquake>water attunement>mud slide. if done right you can actually stagger the damage really closely together with transmute shocking aura's slight delay with updraft then follow up with earthquake right after, if they're not already downed.

    its easy to proc LR 3-4 times within a second with d/d.

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    I have been playing both D/D tempest and D/D weaver in PvP and from my experience there are some clear trades in strengths you make:

    While you have more sustain and mobility on tempest, weaver allows for more access to damage rotations at expense of its mobility. Your main mobility skills on tempest are earth 3, air 4 and fire 3, none of which can be accessed at a moments notice since weaver locks #3-5 for several seconds. Weaver does have water/earth and water/fire to make up for this, but that means you have to be nearly 3 seconds ahead of the play or have the right attunement ready at the time. Being able to access fire and earth more often though does make up in the damage department. In tempest once you are out of fire or earth, your damage drops significantly, specially without fire, and weaver does allow you to come back to your fire 2 and earth 2, which are the bread and butter of condi D/D. Tempest has a decent team support in water and earth overloads, and weaver is very selfish.

    This is why ele feels like a balanced class, there are tradeoffs to our picks, which cant be said about other elites which are straight up upgrades from the core or HoT variants, namely spellbreaker, holo, mirage and soulbeast.

  • @Fortus.6175 said:
    I have been playing both D/D tempest and D/D weaver in PvP and from my experience there are some clear trades in strengths you make:

    While you have more sustain and mobility on tempest, weaver allows for more access to damage rotations at expense of its mobility. Your main mobility skills on tempest are earth 3, air 4 and fire 3, none of which can be accessed at a moments notice since weaver locks #3-5 for several seconds. Weaver does have water/earth and water/fire to make up for this, but that means you have to be nearly 3 seconds ahead of the play or have the right attunement ready at the time. Being able to access fire and earth more often though does make up in the damage department. In tempest once you are out of fire or earth, your damage drops significantly, specially without fire, and weaver does allow you to come back to your fire 2 and earth 2, which are the bread and butter of condi D/D. Tempest has a decent team support in water and earth overloads, and weaver is very selfish.

    This is why ele feels like a balanced class, there are tradeoffs to our picks, which cant be said about other elites which are straight up upgrades from the core or HoT variants, namely spellbreaker, holo, mirage and soulbeast.

    that's not balanced its a choice between specs that have weaknesses that mean they are not up to par with the average profession today.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What it comes down to is that you have to build ele so tankly to let it go into melee that it dose not do enofe dmg vs ppl who are some what tankly but on another class whom gets a "free" ride simply due to have more vit and armor as well as other non state base effects like powerful boons.

    D/D weaver i thew together last night for some 1v1. Mostly counter condi with an eye for group play more then solo but still needs to do enofe dmg to have an impact. It was not killing any thing with any type of self support (so no one) and it would not die to any condi only build.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAoYncMAF5itMA+4CM5iFTA7+M3mfzFngSwHgIBEAaAA-jlhawAAU+Ff/Bfq/EQJ4EdAj0CQKgRFaB-w

    There just soo many skill and effects that are out right worthless that you cant make builds like this work in real fights.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Jski.6180 said:
    What it comes down to is that you have to build ele so tankly to let it go into melee that it dose not do enofe dmg vs ppl who are some what tankly but on another class whom gets a "free" ride simply due to have more vit and armor as well as other non state base effects like powerful boons.

    D/D weaver i thew together last night for some 1v1. Mostly counter condi with an eye for group play more then solo but still needs to do enofe dmg to have an impact. It was not killing any thing with any type of self support (so no one) and it would not die to any condi only build.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAoYncMAF5itMA+4CM5iFTA7+M3mfzFngSwHgIBEAaAA-jlhawAAU+Ff/Bfq/EQJ4EdAj0CQKgRFaB-w

    There just soo many skill and effects that are out right worthless that you cant make builds like this work in real fights.

    In spvp, I could agree about this. it's hard to find all the stat points you need to make a melee ele build tanky enough to trade blows with others.

    In WvW, its a different story. Cele gear can net you +700~ or more to all stats, and you can easily clear 3k power/207% crit damage & 1450 condi damage, with almost 100% crit chance to boot via fury & traits. killing people has never been a problem for me there, no your not 1 shotting people, but i've easily murdered full minstrel firebrands solo on multiple occasions with the stats above.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    What it comes down to is that you have to build ele so tankly to let it go into melee that it dose not do enofe dmg vs ppl who are some what tankly but on another class whom gets a "free" ride simply due to have more vit and armor as well as other non state base effects like powerful boons.

    D/D weaver i thew together last night for some 1v1. Mostly counter condi with an eye for group play more then solo but still needs to do enofe dmg to have an impact. It was not killing any thing with any type of self support (so no one) and it would not die to any condi only build.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAoYncMAF5itMA+4CM5iFTA7+M3mfzFngSwHgIBEAaAA-jlhawAAU+Ff/Bfq/EQJ4EdAj0CQKgRFaB-w

    There just soo many skill and effects that are out right worthless that you cant make builds like this work in real fights.

    In spvp, I could agree about this. it's hard to find all the stat points you need to make a melee ele build tanky enough to trade blows with others.

    In WvW, its a different story. Cele gear can net you +700~ or more to all stats, and you can easily clear 3k power/207% crit damage & 1450 condi damage, with almost 100% crit chance to boot via fury & traits. killing people has never been a problem for me there, no your not 1 shotting people, but i've easily murdered full minstrel firebrands solo on multiple occasions with the stats above.

    As much as i want to believe that in wvw players have a massive pool of dmg -% to draw from in both better armor chose and food and just over all better boons.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've tried to make D/D Weaver work a lot, experiencing all the frustrations with it that have been voiced in both your threads. However, what has worked 'well' for me that I could suggest trying is replacing Water with Fire (taking the cleanse on Fire/Aura trait and might on Fire use), taking a Cleansing Sigil with Mara weapons, take power stats armor (Mara/Zerk Mix) with Rune of Fireworks, keep the full Celestial trinkets and back. You could also try Focus off-hand which changes the game play, but kind of works.

    If I could find Unravel anything more than awkward to play with or a poor substitute for a much more valuable utility Weaver in general would get better. I still say it should be an F5.

    What I have found works even better is taking Tempest over Weaver in the build I described above with D/D.

  • @Tinnel.4369 said:
    I've tried to make D/D Weaver work a lot, experiencing all the frustrations with it that have been voiced in both your threads. However, what has worked 'well' for me that I could suggest trying is replacing Water with Fire (taking the cleanse on Fire/Aura trait and might on Fire use), taking a Cleansing Sigil with Mara weapons, take power stats armor (Mara/Zerk Mix) with Rune of Fireworks, keep the full Celestial trinkets and back. You could also try Focus off-hand which changes the game play, but kind of works.

    If I could find Unravel anything more than awkward to play with or a poor substitute for a much more valuable utility Weaver in general would get better. I still say it should be an F5.

    What I have found works even better is taking Tempest over Weaver in the build I described above with D/D.

    I've tried a similar build idea with fire replacing water. stuck with full cele however, & while its not bad by any means, you def can feel the power bump & extra 10% damage to burning foes.
    The condi clense however showed itself to be less reliable as it was difficult to provide it more on demand. It might work more cohesively with D/F instead of D/D. since you have fire aura access & shocking aura access as well.

    Water with my specific trait setup really brings alot of value in terms of sustain & reliable on demand condi clear that i can even abuse by using unravel to reset the global attunement ICD to clense without hesitation.

  • I shot alot of footage today of some pretty awesome fights with D/D weaver. gonna compile it up & upload it for you guys to watch. Much higher quality too. here's a screenshot of the ArcDPS total damage done in our guild group.

    Link: https://imgur.com/a/V9W0Q4n

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:
    I shot alot of footage today of some pretty awesome fights with D/D weaver. gonna compile it up & upload it for you guys to watch. Much higher quality too. here's a screenshot of the ArcDPS total damage done in our guild group.

    Link: https://imgur.com/a/V9W0Q4n

    It takes some time to get used to but yeah it may work in duels also...but it's quite skill based gameplay so any kind of evidence I may provide will be anectodal but yeah "Unravel" should be used tactically and not off CD ( as I learned the hard way) , by doing that I was able to get close to my typical d/d gameplay with more dmg and utility.

    In WvW there are still some matchups better left to s/d weaver like vs scourge and condi mirage ( in wvw I dominate condi mirages of all kinds with s/d weaver and scourge are free kills ), against everything else I think I can manage np with d/d weaver.

    Let's see how the future shape for ele ...let's see what the future holds for sword but hopefully it will remain a valid weapon choice together with d/d and staff

    -EDIT-
    Yeah condi spam from necro and mesmer is a killer for this build, no chance

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You lose a lot on weaver when you do not use sword main hand. Sadly dagger IS ele worst wepon atm it just happens to be eles only melee wepon for a long time. Not to say sword is the best its just sword comes with free vit on weaver helping you play more melee then dagger.

    When they lost all of the wepon effects builds for ele but gave the staff its wepon effect with out trating for they forgot to give something to scepter and dagger as well. WH gets next to nothing but you can go WH on tempest and sword simply gets a lot of free hp.

    Scepter needs to have better "vigor" and or evasion effects on it and dagger needs better MS or even faster cast speed over all.

    Ele is a mess of a class where things are removed with out thinking it comply though and it just kill the balancing of the class. D/D weaver is "fun" not for real game play sadly.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Jski.6180 said:
    You lose a lot on weaver when you do not use sword main hand. Sadly dagger IS ele worst wepon atm it just happens to be eles only melee wepon for a long time. Not to say sword is the best its just sword comes with free vit on weaver helping you play more melee then dagger.

    When they lost all of the wepon effects builds for ele but gave the staff its wepon effect with out trating for they forgot to give something to scepter and dagger as well. WH gets next to nothing but you can go WH on tempest and sword simply gets a lot of free hp.

    Scepter needs to have better "vigor" and or evasion effects on it and dagger needs better MS or even faster cast speed over all.

    Ele is a mess of a class where things are removed with out thinking it comply though and it just kill the balancing of the class. D/D weaver is "fun" not for real game play sadly.

    I know its an unpopular opinion, but I disagree. I think dagger has superior PbAOE radii & superior cleaving power, with FAR more AoE CC which allows me to freely dictate when I burst & deny enemy burst. As showcased in the link provided in small scale group fights I completely demolish groups & easily have top damage by a far percentage, I didnt catch footage of it, since my combat reset before i turned OBS on, but within an 8 minute period(adding the three seperate combat log damage totals from 3 diff resets), I had 1.2million damage & 450k healing, while my guildies had roughly 850k & 500k damage each. there is a piece of that fight in the link provided, with some other footage.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You lose a lot on weaver when you do not use sword main hand. Sadly dagger IS ele worst wepon atm it just happens to be eles only melee wepon for a long time. Not to say sword is the best its just sword comes with free vit on weaver helping you play more melee then dagger.

    When they lost all of the wepon effects builds for ele but gave the staff its wepon effect with out trating for they forgot to give something to scepter and dagger as well. WH gets next to nothing but you can go WH on tempest and sword simply gets a lot of free hp.

    Scepter needs to have better "vigor" and or evasion effects on it and dagger needs better MS or even faster cast speed over all.

    Ele is a mess of a class where things are removed with out thinking it comply though and it just kill the balancing of the class. D/D weaver is "fun" not for real game play sadly.

    I know its an unpopular opinion, but I disagree. I think dagger has superior PbAOE radii & superior cleaving power, with FAR more AoE CC which allows me to freely dictate when I burst & deny enemy burst. As showcased in the link provided in small scale group fights I completely demolish groups & easily have top damage by a far percentage, I didnt catch footage of it, since my combat reset before i turned OBS on, but within an 8 minute period(adding the three seperate combat log damage totals from 3 diff resets), I had 1.2million damage & 450k healing, while my guildies had roughly 850k & 500k damage each. there is a piece of that fight in the link provided, with some other footage.

    It has less then what staff has and when you sit down a think thought things what the point of being an ele in any environment that you have to build so tankly that you effectually are a tank class more then any thing else. In wvw your dagger is melee it will never work vs ppl on a wall in wvw your staff is both ranged and melee and can work all the time. Yes you can play d/d weaver ele etc.. for fun but that all your doing with it its just not competitive vs real fight builds. That IS the simple truth of dagger main hand any thing ele.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Jski.6180 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You lose a lot on weaver when you do not use sword main hand. Sadly dagger IS ele worst wepon atm it just happens to be eles only melee wepon for a long time. Not to say sword is the best its just sword comes with free vit on weaver helping you play more melee then dagger.

    When they lost all of the wepon effects builds for ele but gave the staff its wepon effect with out trating for they forgot to give something to scepter and dagger as well. WH gets next to nothing but you can go WH on tempest and sword simply gets a lot of free hp.

    Scepter needs to have better "vigor" and or evasion effects on it and dagger needs better MS or even faster cast speed over all.

    Ele is a mess of a class where things are removed with out thinking it comply though and it just kill the balancing of the class. D/D weaver is "fun" not for real game play sadly.

    I know its an unpopular opinion, but I disagree. I think dagger has superior PbAOE radii & superior cleaving power, with FAR more AoE CC which allows me to freely dictate when I burst & deny enemy burst. As showcased in the link provided in small scale group fights I completely demolish groups & easily have top damage by a far percentage, I didnt catch footage of it, since my combat reset before i turned OBS on, but within an 8 minute period(adding the three seperate combat log damage totals from 3 diff resets), I had 1.2million damage & 450k healing, while my guildies had roughly 850k & 500k damage each. there is a piece of that fight in the link provided, with some other footage.

    It has less then what staff has and when you sit down a think thought things what the point of being an ele in any environment that you have to build so tankly that you effectually are a tank class more then any thing else. In wvw your dagger is melee it will never work vs ppl on a wall in wvw your staff is both ranged and melee and can work all the time. Yes you can play d/d weaver ele etc.. for fun but that all your doing with it its just not competitive vs real fight builds. That IS the simple truth of dagger main hand any thing ele.

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You lose a lot on weaver when you do not use sword main hand. Sadly dagger IS ele worst wepon atm it just happens to be eles only melee wepon for a long time. Not to say sword is the best its just sword comes with free vit on weaver helping you play more melee then dagger.

    When they lost all of the wepon effects builds for ele but gave the staff its wepon effect with out trating for they forgot to give something to scepter and dagger as well. WH gets next to nothing but you can go WH on tempest and sword simply gets a lot of free hp.

    Scepter needs to have better "vigor" and or evasion effects on it and dagger needs better MS or even faster cast speed over all.

    Ele is a mess of a class where things are removed with out thinking it comply though and it just kill the balancing of the class. D/D weaver is "fun" not for real game play sadly.

    I know its an unpopular opinion, but I disagree. I think dagger has superior PbAOE radii & superior cleaving power, with FAR more AoE CC which allows me to freely dictate when I burst & deny enemy burst. As showcased in the link provided in small scale group fights I completely demolish groups & easily have top damage by a far percentage, I didnt catch footage of it, since my combat reset before i turned OBS on, but within an 8 minute period(adding the three seperate combat log damage totals from 3 diff resets), I had 1.2million damage & 450k healing, while my guildies had roughly 850k & 500k damage each. there is a piece of that fight in the link provided, with some other footage.

    It has less then what staff has and when you sit down a think thought things what the point of being an ele in any environment that you have to build so tankly that you effectually are a tank class more then any thing else. In wvw your dagger is melee it will never work vs ppl on a wall in wvw your staff is both ranged and melee and can work all the time. Yes you can play d/d weaver ele etc.. for fun but that all your doing with it its just not competitive vs real fight builds. That IS the simple truth of dagger main hand any thing ele.

    Staff is a weapon for large group play i.e. zerging, & dagger/sword are melee range suited for small scale encounters, which is what was shown in the video. Staff is a horrible small-scale or dueling weapon.

    Yes, in full celestial your indeed pretty tanky, with roughly 1700~toughness/vitality & 700~ healing power.
    However, 99% of every celestial build with any class relies on 25 might stacks with high uptime to provide it's damage, so when played correctly your a hard hitting fighter with meaty defensive stats which allows you to trade blows with your opponent, & win. i mean anyone who uses my particular build @ 25 might is rolling with 2900-3000 power & 1450-1500 condition damage, 55% crit chance base(90%max) & 208% crit damage.

    Sounds like we're talking about two different things here. comparing staff & dagger is comparing apples to oranges, in my opinion.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You lose a lot on weaver when you do not use sword main hand. Sadly dagger IS ele worst wepon atm it just happens to be eles only melee wepon for a long time. Not to say sword is the best its just sword comes with free vit on weaver helping you play more melee then dagger.

    When they lost all of the wepon effects builds for ele but gave the staff its wepon effect with out trating for they forgot to give something to scepter and dagger as well. WH gets next to nothing but you can go WH on tempest and sword simply gets a lot of free hp.

    Scepter needs to have better "vigor" and or evasion effects on it and dagger needs better MS or even faster cast speed over all.

    Ele is a mess of a class where things are removed with out thinking it comply though and it just kill the balancing of the class. D/D weaver is "fun" not for real game play sadly.

    I know its an unpopular opinion, but I disagree. I think dagger has superior PbAOE radii & superior cleaving power, with FAR more AoE CC which allows me to freely dictate when I burst & deny enemy burst. As showcased in the link provided in small scale group fights I completely demolish groups & easily have top damage by a far percentage, I didnt catch footage of it, since my combat reset before i turned OBS on, but within an 8 minute period(adding the three seperate combat log damage totals from 3 diff resets), I had 1.2million damage & 450k healing, while my guildies had roughly 850k & 500k damage each. there is a piece of that fight in the link provided, with some other footage.

    It has less then what staff has and when you sit down a think thought things what the point of being an ele in any environment that you have to build so tankly that you effectually are a tank class more then any thing else. In wvw your dagger is melee it will never work vs ppl on a wall in wvw your staff is both ranged and melee and can work all the time. Yes you can play d/d weaver ele etc.. for fun but that all your doing with it its just not competitive vs real fight builds. That IS the simple truth of dagger main hand any thing ele.

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You lose a lot on weaver when you do not use sword main hand. Sadly dagger IS ele worst wepon atm it just happens to be eles only melee wepon for a long time. Not to say sword is the best its just sword comes with free vit on weaver helping you play more melee then dagger.

    When they lost all of the wepon effects builds for ele but gave the staff its wepon effect with out trating for they forgot to give something to scepter and dagger as well. WH gets next to nothing but you can go WH on tempest and sword simply gets a lot of free hp.

    Scepter needs to have better "vigor" and or evasion effects on it and dagger needs better MS or even faster cast speed over all.

    Ele is a mess of a class where things are removed with out thinking it comply though and it just kill the balancing of the class. D/D weaver is "fun" not for real game play sadly.

    I know its an unpopular opinion, but I disagree. I think dagger has superior PbAOE radii & superior cleaving power, with FAR more AoE CC which allows me to freely dictate when I burst & deny enemy burst. As showcased in the link provided in small scale group fights I completely demolish groups & easily have top damage by a far percentage, I didnt catch footage of it, since my combat reset before i turned OBS on, but within an 8 minute period(adding the three seperate combat log damage totals from 3 diff resets), I had 1.2million damage & 450k healing, while my guildies had roughly 850k & 500k damage each. there is a piece of that fight in the link provided, with some other footage.

    It has less then what staff has and when you sit down a think thought things what the point of being an ele in any environment that you have to build so tankly that you effectually are a tank class more then any thing else. In wvw your dagger is melee it will never work vs ppl on a wall in wvw your staff is both ranged and melee and can work all the time. Yes you can play d/d weaver ele etc.. for fun but that all your doing with it its just not competitive vs real fight builds. That IS the simple truth of dagger main hand any thing ele.

    Staff is a weapon for large group play i.e. zerging, & dagger/sword are melee range suited for small scale encounters, which is what was shown in the video. Staff is a horrible small-scale or dueling weapon.

    Yes, in full celestial your indeed pretty tanky, with roughly 1700~toughness/vitality & 700~ healing power.
    However, 99% of every celestial build with any class relies on 25 might stacks with high uptime to provide it's damage, so when played correctly your a hard hitting fighter with meaty defensive stats which allows you to trade blows with your opponent, & win. i mean anyone who uses my particular build @ 25 might is rolling with 2900-3000 power & 1450-1500 condition damage, 55% crit chance base(90%max) & 208% crit damage.

    Sounds like we're talking about two different things here. comparing staff & dagger is comparing apples to oranges, in my opinion.

    Your missunderstanding my point i am talking about ranged and melee attks and how wvw works. As much as you may like dagger its a melee wepon you cant attk over walls. So part of wvw is somthing dagger ele can even be part of but staff can. Staff has both the ability at ranged and at melee.

    You lost a LOT of power making your attks a wet noodl vs any one who is putting any thing into def. In a mid to large size fights even small fights relaying on boons alone for your dmg is riskly as there so much boon strip in the game on the over used classes that if you do have your 25 stack max boos etc.. its more on them for falling to play there class right then on you for stacking the boons. Bleed and burn alone locked behind atuments condis dmg dose not make.

    Same class same effects just different ranged but for some reason dagger a melee wepon is a lot weaker then staff most of the time. The risk reward is not there for the ele class.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Jski.6180 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You lose a lot on weaver when you do not use sword main hand. Sadly dagger IS ele worst wepon atm it just happens to be eles only melee wepon for a long time. Not to say sword is the best its just sword comes with free vit on weaver helping you play more melee then dagger.

    When they lost all of the wepon effects builds for ele but gave the staff its wepon effect with out trating for they forgot to give something to scepter and dagger as well. WH gets next to nothing but you can go WH on tempest and sword simply gets a lot of free hp.

    Scepter needs to have better "vigor" and or evasion effects on it and dagger needs better MS or even faster cast speed over all.

    Ele is a mess of a class where things are removed with out thinking it comply though and it just kill the balancing of the class. D/D weaver is "fun" not for real game play sadly.

    I know its an unpopular opinion, but I disagree. I think dagger has superior PbAOE radii & superior cleaving power, with FAR more AoE CC which allows me to freely dictate when I burst & deny enemy burst. As showcased in the link provided in small scale group fights I completely demolish groups & easily have top damage by a far percentage, I didnt catch footage of it, since my combat reset before i turned OBS on, but within an 8 minute period(adding the three seperate combat log damage totals from 3 diff resets), I had 1.2million damage & 450k healing, while my guildies had roughly 850k & 500k damage each. there is a piece of that fight in the link provided, with some other footage.

    It has less then what staff has and when you sit down a think thought things what the point of being an ele in any environment that you have to build so tankly that you effectually are a tank class more then any thing else. In wvw your dagger is melee it will never work vs ppl on a wall in wvw your staff is both ranged and melee and can work all the time. Yes you can play d/d weaver ele etc.. for fun but that all your doing with it its just not competitive vs real fight builds. That IS the simple truth of dagger main hand any thing ele.

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    You lose a lot on weaver when you do not use sword main hand. Sadly dagger IS ele worst wepon atm it just happens to be eles only melee wepon for a long time. Not to say sword is the best its just sword comes with free vit on weaver helping you play more melee then dagger.

    When they lost all of the wepon effects builds for ele but gave the staff its wepon effect with out trating for they forgot to give something to scepter and dagger as well. WH gets next to nothing but you can go WH on tempest and sword simply gets a lot of free hp.

    Scepter needs to have better "vigor" and or evasion effects on it and dagger needs better MS or even faster cast speed over all.

    Ele is a mess of a class where things are removed with out thinking it comply though and it just kill the balancing of the class. D/D weaver is "fun" not for real game play sadly.

    I know its an unpopular opinion, but I disagree. I think dagger has superior PbAOE radii & superior cleaving power, with FAR more AoE CC which allows me to freely dictate when I burst & deny enemy burst. As showcased in the link provided in small scale group fights I completely demolish groups & easily have top damage by a far percentage, I didnt catch footage of it, since my combat reset before i turned OBS on, but within an 8 minute period(adding the three seperate combat log damage totals from 3 diff resets), I had 1.2million damage & 450k healing, while my guildies had roughly 850k & 500k damage each. there is a piece of that fight in the link provided, with some other footage.

    It has less then what staff has and when you sit down a think thought things what the point of being an ele in any environment that you have to build so tankly that you effectually are a tank class more then any thing else. In wvw your dagger is melee it will never work vs ppl on a wall in wvw your staff is both ranged and melee and can work all the time. Yes you can play d/d weaver ele etc.. for fun but that all your doing with it its just not competitive vs real fight builds. That IS the simple truth of dagger main hand any thing ele.

    Staff is a weapon for large group play i.e. zerging, & dagger/sword are melee range suited for small scale encounters, which is what was shown in the video. Staff is a horrible small-scale or dueling weapon.

    Yes, in full celestial your indeed pretty tanky, with roughly 1700~toughness/vitality & 700~ healing power.
    However, 99% of every celestial build with any class relies on 25 might stacks with high uptime to provide it's damage, so when played correctly your a hard hitting fighter with meaty defensive stats which allows you to trade blows with your opponent, & win. i mean anyone who uses my particular build @ 25 might is rolling with 2900-3000 power & 1450-1500 condition damage, 55% crit chance base(90%max) & 208% crit damage.

    Sounds like we're talking about two different things here. comparing staff & dagger is comparing apples to oranges, in my opinion.

    Your missunderstanding my point i am talking about ranged and melee attks and how wvw works. As much as you may like dagger its a melee wepon you cant attk over walls. So part of wvw is somthing dagger ele can even be part of but staff can. Staff has both the ability at ranged and at melee.

    You lost a LOT of power making your attks a wet noodl vs any one who is putting any thing into def. In a mid to large size fights even small fights relaying on boons alone for your dmg is riskly as there so much boon strip in the game on the over used classes that if you do have your 25 stack max boos etc.. its more on them for falling to play there class right then on you for stacking the boons. Bleed and burn alone locked behind atuments condis dmg dose not make.

    Same class same effects just different ranged but for some reason dagger a melee weapon is a lot weaker then staff most of the time. The risk reward is not there for the ele class.

    I don't usually participate in objective fighting often, if ever. I'm only looking for other talented players to fight, so I never really need constant access to ranged attacks to hit walls. It's just not needed for my game play.

    about 6 months ago, your point about boons & being corrupted are right on point. on Sw/D & D/D i struggled to keep a consistent 20+ might during my offensive plays, and would fall flat on my face fighting spell breakers since my primordial stance almost always procced their full counter thus ripping my might.
    BUT

    the rune & sigil rework, then added boons to unravel (as well as its ability to reset the global attunement swap ICD of 4 seconds/3.5 traited) provided a HUGE buff to my ability to keep might up, & honestly, Its a BREEZE to keep 25 might on myself almost completely passively, with the occasional blast here & there. I have 4 sources of consistent fury up time all on 30 second cool-downs or shorter, & its usually permanent.

    Protection is a tougher boon, easier for d/d to get than sw/d, due to unravel prot access, but on average, ARC-dps statistics show my protection up-time in most given fights is approx 65-70%. but might, no question is so easy to max @ 25 stacks and keep there, even if im fighting 2 or more scourges.

    they have to land the corrupts too, and most scourges are so predictable now i usually kill them in less than 5 seconds, & if I dont, dagger's built in weapon evade frames are all offensive in nature, vs swords defensive evades, so even if they're spamming F1-F5 as hard as their fingers will let them they're usually dumping it into steam surge/burning speed I-frames, if not twist of fate.

    & i DO NOT hit like a wet noodle. most people who are unaware of what im running typically get downed in less than 10 seconds, sometimes less than 2 seconds. Watch the damage floaters in the video & you'll see power numbers critting for 5k+ regularly, sometimes upwards of 7-10k. most marauder builds dont see a lot higher damage than that on weapon skills. then consider I also have 1450 condition damage @ 25 might, & for added fun, you can use the weave self elite in fire attunement, for additional 20% condition damage, which roughly translates to 1800-1900 effective condition damage at most.

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:
    I've tried to make D/D Weaver work a lot, experiencing all the frustrations with it that have been voiced in both your threads. However, what has worked 'well' for me that I could suggest trying is replacing Water with Fire (taking the cleanse on Fire/Aura trait and might on Fire use), taking a Cleansing Sigil with Mara weapons, take power stats armor (Mara/Zerk Mix) with Rune of Fireworks, keep the full Celestial trinkets and back. You could also try Focus off-hand which changes the game play, but kind of works.

    If I could find Unravel anything more than awkward to play with or a poor substitute for a much more valuable utility Weaver in general would get better. I still say it should be an F5.

    What I have found works even better is taking Tempest over Weaver in the build I described above with D/D.

    I've tried a similar build idea with fire replacing water. stuck with full cele however, & while its not bad by any means, you def can feel the power bump & extra 10% damage to burning foes.
    The condi clense however showed itself to be less reliable as it was difficult to provide it more on demand. It might work more cohesively with D/F instead of D/D. since you have fire aura access & shocking aura access as well.

    Water with my specific trait setup really brings alot of value in terms of sustain & reliable on demand condi clear that i can even abuse by using unravel to reset the global attunement ICD to clense without hesitation.

    The cleansing sigil is key.

  • kornfanxxx.9143kornfanxxx.9143 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:
    I've tried to make D/D Weaver work a lot, experiencing all the frustrations with it that have been voiced in both your threads. However, what has worked 'well' for me that I could suggest trying is replacing Water with Fire (taking the cleanse on Fire/Aura trait and might on Fire use), taking a Cleansing Sigil with Mara weapons, take power stats armor (Mara/Zerk Mix) with Rune of Fireworks, keep the full Celestial trinkets and back. You could also try Focus off-hand which changes the game play, but kind of works.

    If I could find Unravel anything more than awkward to play with or a poor substitute for a much more valuable utility Weaver in general would get better. I still say it should be an F5.

    What I have found works even better is taking Tempest over Weaver in the build I described above with D/D.

    I've tried a similar build idea with fire replacing water. stuck with full cele however, & while its not bad by any means, you def can feel the power bump & extra 10% damage to burning foes.
    The condi clense however showed itself to be less reliable as it was difficult to provide it more on demand. It might work more cohesively with D/F instead of D/D. since you have fire aura access & shocking aura access as well.

    Water with my specific trait setup really brings alot of value in terms of sustain & reliable on demand condi clear that i can even abuse by using unravel to reset the global attunement ICD to clense without hesitation.

    The cleansing sigil is key.

    Yeah, I mean.. strictly by the numbers fire/arcane/weaver D/D has alot of clearing potential, aura trait provides 6 from shocking aura/frost aura, fire aura is another on attunement swap, thats 7, dagger 5 water is 9, water dodge is 10, cleansing brings that to 13, then 16 total including lesser cleansing fire, before incurring heavy cooldowns. the cleansing sigil & fire attunement for about 20 seconds were the only things propping up my cleanse while waiting on auras to come back online.

    I also considered since ditching water, taking invigorating strikes to recoup the lost sustain value of water. its an stupid powerful trait, but the damage sacrifice (least with fire runes what I ran) by my crit chance going from 55% to 35% was huge. fury was harder to get since no pack rune filler fury, & even with weakness on the other guy that brought me to 50% crit chance flat. I'm gonna keep messing with it more for sure, as I think fire is VERY close to being compatible with brawler weaver.

    but I think invigorating strikes is going to be mandatory for high dodge uptime (i was running 40% endurance regen food as well for 90% endurance regen) & the ensuing barrier to help soak damage that water did a good job of doing.

    But yeah, the damage bonuses fire brings are gnarly if you add them up with fire runes & elements of rage. (popping unravel & entering fire attunement procs a 20% damage bonus via fire runes&ele of rage), then once you apply burning thats 30%. got a 9.5k burning speed earlier on a soulbeast messing with a full cele fire rune fire/arcane/weaver build lol.

    edit: I also wasn't sure if I could justify signet of restoration anymore either, i know its total output in healing is unmatched for most scenerios ~ but thats just by the numbers, there's a difference between something healing for 30k over 40 seconds, & something healing you for 7.5k over 1/2 a second.

  • https://imgur.com/a/vkDD7at

    Was messing with a fire build in full cele, with pack runes instead of fire runes. Found a group cata'ing outer SMC with my mesmer guildie brie, & we prestacked 25 might & used cloaking waters in a yolo attempt. ended up wiping about 12-14 people by ourselves lol.

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