Siren's Reef with birds?

Question -- what should be the strategy when Siren's Reef has: Birds, No Pain No Gain and Adrenaline Rush?Birds get extra bonus set of boons automatically from the start. And they don't seem to transfer to enemies (plus endurance doesn't regenerate fast enough before you get a new set of birds). Does this have anything to do with fact that you can't rally from any adds that are not "primary" bosses? When you're on the boat, I guess birds can't be transferred to other enemies as they are too far so you're out of luck -- you have to deal with birds, but dealing with birds means you can't shoot cannons, which means you get swamped with ghosts too soon (which you can't rally off off).

What's the proper way to deal with this with pugs? My initial group wiped around 7 times before disbanding. I really don't want to add yet another "just don't do this combo of newer fractal with these instabilities with pugs" to my list.

First time playing fractals in months and we start with this new sirens reef. Worst experience I've ever had in any video game I've ever played. Will never play sirens reef again. It was with my guildies and we were all in discord as well. We are WvW players and do not run metabattle garbage, nor do any of us do perfect rotation spam skills off cooldown. Aka I'm playing an almost full zerk reaper. You start making fractals raids (which we DON'T do) then we have no content other than WvW.

Give me a break... wtf is this kitten?https://imgur.com/LKZEKXb

We tried for about an hour and a half to beat this and ended up disbanding and not doing any other fractals. No ascended gear in WvW or PvE for us now, nice.

To op , the only way for this new fractal and especially t4 one is massive cleave damage from DPSer and overheal from healer , and not just that , you'll also need a good supporter like FB to pulse as much boons/utility like bubble as possible.

Also when u on the ship , adds from south & north should be killed first before they group up and wipe u all out by range attack. Ask a support class to aid dps while he/she clear adds , others can focus on boss and nearby adds.

The only way to git rid of birds is make dodge roll once , but we need to save more endurance to dodge wing/bomb or other shits , so ask ur boob support to keep up defensive boons as long as possible.

Although most people think we can min max output damage to melt boss down before wipe out, but this new fractal's design make this strategy useless because of ghost swarm. Take 2 good support class and clear adds before they group up while fighting boss is the way to go.

@"Ruufio.1496" said:First time playing fractals in months and we start with this new sirens reef. Worst experience I've ever had in any video game I've ever played. Will never play sirens reef again. It was with my guildies and we were all in discord as well. We are WvW players and do not run metabattle garbage, nor do any of us do perfect rotation spam skills off cooldown. Aka I'm playing an almost full zerk reaper. You start making fractals raids (which we DON'T do) then we have no content other than WvW.

Give me a break... kitten is this kitten?https://imgur.com/LKZEKXb

We tried for about an hour and a half to beat this and ended up disbanding and not doing any other fractals. No ascended gear in WvW or PvE for us now, nice.

Respect the content and it will respect you.

Just to prever anyone from comming with the "what about bugs hurr durr" No, bug arent intented and im not refering to those.

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Ruufio.1496" said:First time playing fractals in months and we start with this new sirens reef. Worst experience I've ever had in any video game I've ever played. Will never play sirens reef again. It was with my guildies and we were all in discord as well. We are WvW players and do not run metabattle garbage, nor do any of us do perfect rotation spam skills off cooldown. Aka I'm playing an almost full zerk reaper. You start making fractals raids (which we DON'T do) then we have no content other than WvW.

Give me a break... kitten is this kitten?

https://imgur.com/LKZEKXb

We tried for about an hour and a half to beat this and ended up disbanding and not doing any other fractals. No ascended gear in WvW or PvE for us now, nice.

I do not often agree with zealex, but on this one I do. What point is there chest-thumping about being a great WvW player, but then failing at basic pve content by not adapting?

Yes, the instability combination is quite deadly. No it is not unsolvable. I completed the daily fractals in a PUG group with mediocre dps but bringing the right tools for the trade:

• Fractals were run with a Ren+FB support comp who were playing together (unfortunately both heal too so we were left with only 2 dps and a bs)
• Dragonhunter power dps (me)
• bannerslave warrior
• Deadeye

Once we reached the last boss on Siren's Reef, we gave the fight a few tries but were running into issues of not having enough cleave to get past 25%. Deadeye went Daredevil, and warrior went back to core (from spellbreaker). Still no success. I then switched to mercy scourge with a bit extra damage gear (would have gone full damage scourge but my damage gear on scourge is lacking the AR), put in some boon corrupt and done.

Final composition for the fractal boss of Siren's Reef with Birds, No Pain , No Gain and Adrenaline Rush:

• heal Renegade
• heal Firebrand
• Daredevil
• core Warrior
• semi heal scourge running half damage gear (Epidemic, Well of Corruption, Signet of Undeath, Ghastly Breach)

Was this abusing triple supports? Sure. Could this have been done way more efficiently by bringing other DPS classes? Yes. Did we have 100% up-time on essential boons? Yes. Was it fun to come up with different ideas on how to tackle the situation? For me it was.

Again, this was done in a PUG group of random players (except ren+fb who were from the same guild, not sure if on voice chat). I would expect a static or people who are on voice chat to come up with way better synergy and approaches (only limited by the characters and classes available).

@Cyninja.2954 said:What point is there chest-thumping about being a great WvW player, but then failing at basic pve content by not adapting?

^ I mean, you really dig yourself a hole by saying you are a wvw player. Isnt the deal in pvp that from enemy to enemy things can be diff because they are humans instead of ai, so you have to abjust your aproach.

Why would you be so against the idea of abjusting for pve encounters u may struggle in then?

Did this today, pugging as always. It's fine. Just need to adapt. After we got wiped a couple of times, we brought in reflects and we finished it. We /gg'd after every mini-boss in the ship though.

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:What point is there chest-thumping about being a great WvW player, but then failing at basic pve content by not adapting?

Because we arenn't going to play garbage PvE content that requires min/maxeed builds for the highest possible dps and "learn" (unlearn proper play) how to literally spam skills off cooldown in a set sequence. Fractals didn't used to require this and the kitten from raids has beyond seeped into fractals.

But please, do continue bragging how good you are at spamming your skills. I mean I could just make a macro that does that . In no universe should a minstrels firebrand, a zerk reaper, a zerk thief, a zerk holosmith and a condi engi suffer so horribly in a fractal, as if it were a raid.

If you defend this fractal then it's because you also do raids. In this game, or another - you do or have done raids. Raid community is something that should stay the kitten out of fractals. I'm starting to miss my mossman fractals with the stupid changes to fractals with this sirens reef and the new ridiculous instabilities.

These changes are simply way too hard for what fractals should be. But hard isn't even the right word. The chaos fractal is "hard" but you can beat it with any comp by playing well. That is absolutely not true for this one.

Random CMs pug did it in like no time, birds were just annoying at the labyrinth phase. Other than that - totally free. It's funny how people want to do end game content with trash builds and comps. It's like expecting to drive over snow with your summer tires.

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:What point is there chest-thumping about being a great WvW player, but then failing at basic pve content by not adapting?

Proper play by what definition? WvW? No, fractals did not require this kind of attention.

You are salty because you did not manage to beat the fractal after over an hour of trying, understandable. Maybe you are not as well versed in your classes as you want to believe. At the very least you are not as adaptable to a different difficulty as a very experienced player might be or should be.

@Ruufio.1496 said:But please, do continue bragging how good you are at spamming your skills. I mean I could just make a macro that does that . In no universe should a minstrels firebrand, a zerk reaper, a zerk thief, a zerk holosmith and a condi engi suffer so horribly in a fractal, as if it were a raid.

No one is bragging. No one is defending. You are simply overestimating your own ability and player skill. People in PUG groups managed to beat this fractal. It's not unbeatable and there are ways to even cheese it (support scourge for one).

@Ruufio.1496 said:

If you defend this fractal then it's because you also do raids. In this game, or another - you do or have done raids. Raid community is something that should stay the kitten out of fractals. I'm starting to miss my mossman fractals with the stupid changes to fractals with this sirens reef and the new ridiculous instabilities.

Yes, afk 15 minutes on mossman for free loot was true challenging game play. What you miss is not having to engage in challenging pve content while reaping the rewards. Sorry, this fractal and instability combination will not work for that. Don't worry, tomorrow is a new day and some fractals are bound to be face roll easy again.

@Ruufio.1496 said:

These changes are simply way too hard for what fractals should be. But hard isn't even the right word. The chaos fractal is "hard" but you can beat it with any comp by playing well. That is absolutely not true for this one.

Difficulty is subjective, I was on teamspeak when a group of guild mates (3 of whom are WvW players primarily) beat the fractal with a heal druid (random pick up player), quickbrand (WvW player 1), daredevil (WvW player 2), chrono (WvW player 3) and soulbeast (guildie). They wiped 3-4 times and it was close in their last try, yet they succeeded.

Turns out, even non meta groups can succeed if the player skill is present.

@"Compleo.3182" said:It's funny how people want to do end game content with trash builds and comps

So metabattle garbage only it is, then? Nothing else that actually does very good dps (but not the most!q!) is allowed. This is what everyone against raids doesn't want in fractals. You should NOT have to use optimal comp for fractals.

And "random pugs" means nothing and is only an attempt to justify this fractal and new instabilities. That "random pug" could be your every day raid player using an optimal build who does perfect rotations.

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:What point is there chest-thumping about being a great WvW player, but then failing at basic pve content by not adapting?

Why should a team with bad builds and no idea how to play be able to complete the highest tier of pve 5 player content. What is your proper play you mentioned? Proper play is being able to achieve high dps while also being able to support and survive at the same time.If you would fail with that comp in t1 or t2 fractals I would understand it but T4 is supposed to be hard. It's too easy actually and doesn't require a healer 99% of the time.Condi engi suffers super hard if you dont follow a rotation. Your comp also doesn't have alacrity.But your comp had a way to achieve perma projectile defense. Did your FB use wall of reflection for example? Why are there so many mobs on that screen with so much cleave from Holo + reaper + thief.Playing wvsw doesn't qualify you for completing high level pve content. You need a different set of skills and mindset there.I bet you also complain about 100 being too hard because you can't complete it with spaming 1.

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:What point is there chest-thumping about being a great WvW player, but then failing at basic pve content by not adapting?

Every fractal except sirens reef is fine. Defending sirens reef by saying a comp with a quickbrand and a chrono and other very good dps classes onnlyy wiped 3-4 times and then barely finally won is not a good argument to not nerf sirens reef.

Some of the instabilities are ridiculous, though.

Also.... "require a healer" is a gross statement and it's sad that the game went into this PvE direction that completely unbalances WvW/PvP.

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:What point is there chest-thumping about being a great WvW player, but then failing at basic pve content by not adapting?

Every fractal besides Siren's Reef was face-roll easy today, as usual. You had a subpar comp and likely did not utilize all your comps abilities. Turns out, that won't fly when difficulty does ramp up even in pve. You didn't even bring boon rip or remove, something one of the instabilities specifically mentions....

Wasn't much fun. After about 5 wipes (which is more wipes than I have had in all the T4s I've run in the past 2 weeks combined) we had one player switch to a Condi Scourge and managed to eek out the win. Coincidentally the last time I had Siren's in T4, we also had to swap out one player for an epi Scourge. See Necros? ANET made a fractal just for you guys...and you say they don't love you.

BTW, what is up with being attacked by birds while on the cannon? When you're supposed to clear the mines away from the boss with cannon fire, an important mechanic, but have to leave the siege to dodge out and deal with birds? Might want to look at that....

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Wasn't much fun. After about 5 wipes (which is more wipes than I have had in all the T4s I've run in the past 2 weeks combined) we had one player switch to a Condi Scourge and managed to eek out the win. Coincidentally the last time I had Siren's in T4, we also had to swap out one player for an epi Scourge. See Necros? ANET made a fractal just for you guys...and you say they don't love you.

BTW, what is up with being attacked by birds while on the cannon? When you're supposed to clear the mines away from the boss with cannon fire, an important mechanic, but have to leave the siege to dodge out and deal with birds? Might want to look at that....

Agreed it's quite ridiculous.

@"Ruufio.1496" said:First time playing fractals in months and we start with this new sirens reef. Worst experience I've ever had in any video game I've ever played. Will never play sirens reef again. It was with my guildies and we were all in discord as well. We are WvW players and do not run metabattle garbage, nor do any of us do perfect rotation spam skills off cooldown. Aka I'm playing an almost full zerk reaper. You start making fractals raids (which we DON'T do) then we have no content other than WvW.

Give me a break... kitten is this kitten?https://imgur.com/LKZEKXb

We tried for about an hour and a half to beat this and ended up disbanding and not doing any other fractals. No ascended gear in WvW or PvE for us now, nice.

I agree that Siren's Reef isn't a particularly enjoyable fractal. But it is nowhere close to being a 'raid'. I played zerk reaper as well, in a group with 2 pugs (guardian and bannerslave) and 2 friends (who used renegade and firebrand). You know what I did? I played the dedicated boonstrip. I brought boon corrupt and well of corruption, kept axe 3 as a third option and used those to boonstrip when needed. I didn't do perfectly -- there were times I got blown overboard or got attacked by birds, and wasted my skills because of the blind -- but we did it fine on the first attempt, and one of our pugs hadn't even finished the fractal before.

I am nowhere near Snow Crows super elite mega hyper expadocious meta damage as well and yet I did fine in my role, and so did my team. Frankly, based on the (limited) perspective I got from your screenshot, you have no understanding of how a reaper can be used, given your utility set and weapon. The fractal isn't too hard, it's you who needs to 'git gud', as the meme goes. I'm kinda shocked too -- necros are the prime boonstrips of WvW, and are known for doing that, and it didn't even occur to you to do it?

@"Bugabuga.9721" said:Question -- what should be the strategy when Siren's Reef has: Birds, No Pain No Gain and Adrenaline Rush?Birds get extra bonus set of boons automatically from the start. And they don't seem to transfer to enemies (plus endurance doesn't regenerate fast enough before you get a new set of birds). Does this have anything to do with fact that you can't rally from any adds that are not "primary" bosses? When you're on the boat, I guess birds can't be transferred to other enemies as they are too far so you're out of luck -- you have to deal with birds, but dealing with birds means you can't shoot cannons, which means you get swamped with ghosts too soon (which you can't rally off off).

What's the proper way to deal with this with pugs? My initial group wiped around 7 times before disbanding. I really don't want to add yet another "just don't do this combo of newer fractal with these instabilities with pugs" to my list.

Nobody's answering your question so let me try.

Boonstrip is important in any 'No Pain, No Gain' fractal. Spellbreaker warrior, chrono or a necro (scourge or reaper) can play that role. For the birds, if you're lacking endurance make sure you have the mobility potion -- I've never really ran out with it, so I think you were just unlucky. For birds when on cannons you just need to be quick, dodge roll backwards then back on the cannon. I've never had a bird attack me afterwards when I did that, they have an aggro range.

I think a good strategy to beat siren's reef, esp If you get really bad instabilities, is to run a group with mainly condi firebrands with mantra of lore as dps. They will do a heap of aoe and tombs will reset after each mob dies and stacking that many condi removal will negate most of the damage, not to mention all the stability you will get. Maybe run sweet bean + refreshing drink too for more condi mitigation. If your group has got good coordination you can take wall of reflection too. Still waiting until birds,LL,out-flanked combination comes up for some seriously brokenness.

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@"Compleo.3182" said:It's funny how people want to do end game content with trash builds and comps

Just skip so supposed top tier 5men content and go for t3 till eventually you learn how to play the game. And you can run many builds provided you can manage your rotations that way that you actually are useful and not just a liability for a team. There are good comps and bad comps. You dont choose summer clothes in winter if you do not want to catch a cold. So choose in game accordingly. Ive never heard ppl complaining that they need top rotations for open world. Maybe open world is your playground? Play whatever you want, however you want there.

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:What point is there chest-thumping about being a great WvW player, but then failing at basic pve content by not adapting?

I won't defend the fractal design. It feels like an open world boss with too much trash and chill spam. But it's not too hard. Most of the attacks can be reflected and condi cleanse is mandatory.Why does healer requirement unbalance wvsw?Also what is decent damage for you? I'm not sure if you know how much damage a meta build can do. T4 fractals should be balanced for meta builds and not random stuff or they would be even easier on meta builds.Did this fractal today without a healer and without a chrono. We died 2 or 3 times to the mobwaves before endboss but killed endboss first try.

Need to dodge, dodge in enemy's aoe and the wind pushing thing, try to come back on ship, but wind don't want.Birds were horrible. + The mobs with protection, mights ....

You have luck; we all was power.Druid was ... druid... Some heals, but not constant. No cleave no boon strip. "Chrono can you take null field or Domi ? War can you take SpB ?" No they can't. Chrono ragequit so I reroll FB support with Virtue to give a lil endurance boost too, and wall, resistance etc."Someone has Scourge with boonstrip and epi ?" No. LFG for power DPS ... After one hour I've just ragequit, change PUG with my FB, did the boss at first try.

@"Ruufio.1496" said:https://imgur.com/LKZEKXb

Ah ah! It was a bit like that in my first group too, but at the end boss.

Theoretically you can use birds to blind a good amount of the adds that spawn throughout the entire fractal, but for some reason the birds can fail to transfer and end up spawning more trash to deal with. Both aren’t particularly tanky, but can deal some damage to glass and require effort to kill if not caught in cleaves/aoes. This becomes more of struggle though when you lack an aoe/cleave heavy spec like guard or necro (usually DH and reaper). This fractal doesn’t support mostly-single target and maybe some DoT dps-style specs very well.

tbh and imo, if we argue about high tier meta strats, they probably nuke the boss(es) in way under a minute, making mechanics and specific build compositions kind of unimportant. However, the pug average from my experience, even if running meta, is nowhere near capable of achieving this.

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:What point is there chest-thumping about being a great WvW player, but then failing at basic pve content by not adapting?

I think i have like 30 li? never did half w5,6 so not really. I just thing it makes sense that if i want to have a good time i should at the very least be prepared to abjust my build. But i guess PvDing in wvw doesnt teach you that.

Birds are annoying in any fractal where you get locked and or has lots of trash mobs.For some unknown reason the juvenile prototypes spawn for no reason at all and act as any other mob, meaning if you have instability like:Afflicted, Adrenaline Rush, Boon Overload,We Bleed Fire & Vengeance, this ravens may and will cause all that 'fun' on your party.There is no explanation of juvenile on instability description at all.I get that devs wanted to make fractals more 'challenging' but this is not a good challenge.There are so many ways to make fractals fun and challenging without annoying the kitten of players.