Reducing the gap between all HP pool tier ? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Reducing the gap between all HP pool tier ?

Nath Forge Tempete.1645Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Member ✭✭✭
edited January 22, 2019 in Professions

It's well known that all classes (with the same amount of stats ) doesnt have the same amount of HP. There are actually 3 tiers since the core release back to 2012.

Tier 1 : low hp pool (11k hp)

  • Elementalist
  • Thief
  • Guardian

Tier 2 : middle pool ( 15k hp)

  • Mesmer
  • Ranger
  • Engineer
  • Revenant

Tier 3 : High pool (19k HP)

  • Warrior
  • Necromancer

WIth the release of new elite specs, it feels like some of these categorizations are a little outdated. For me tho... it feels like the tiers are too spread from 11k to 19k ... 8k hp feels huge especially in the power creep state the game is right know.

My opinion is to rather increase low pool to 13k and reduce the high to 17k. But necromancer would probably really suffer from the "nerf" . An easy fix would be to had some more HP (such as herald got with its rework) on a minor trait but will make the trait line mandatory tho ...

or maybe just review the tier classification.

What do you think?

Reducing the gap between all HP pool tier ? 122 votes

Yes , it's outdated
41%
BlaqueFyre.5678Jski.6180LucianDK.8615TwiceDead.1963Khailyn.6248Asum.4960Kravey.4563Raknar.4735K THEN.5162Ezrael.6859Ario.8964Amaranthe.3578InsaneQR.7412RUNICBLACK.7630Arcaedus.7290Aeolus.3615otto.5684vesica tempestas.1563Enigmoid.1264DiogoSilva.7089 51 votes
Yes, it wasn't really relevant
4%
TheQuickFox.3826GoodWithGravy.8019Fluxxar.3692JPaul.5197Achlys.9650Derameter.7928 6 votes
No, it's still well designed
4%
Vagrant.7206Eme.2018gmmg.9210AlexndrTheGreat.8310Regh.8649RandomNPC.8714 6 votes
No, it works just fine
31%
Cerioth.7062Solori.6025derd.6413Dahkeus.8243BunjiKugashira.9754Kuulpb.5412Zaraki.5784Susy.7529Lily.1935Opal.9324Eros.6801BadMed.3846ZeftheWicked.3076dceptaconroy.7928Elmo Benchwarmer.3025Henry.5713Ansau.7326Zero.3871Valenzhul.9582KrHome.1920 39 votes
Rework the entire tier system (more tier or swap classes from tiers)
9%
Aktium.9506ScottBroChill.3254messiah.1908Xykris.6758Kumouta.4985Aguna.3497Yannir.4132Jemmi.6058Chill Ra.3416Eekasqueak.7850Loke.1429 11 votes
No opinion
0%
Aqua.5097 1 vote
Other (maybe?)
6%
Kiroshima.8497Opopanax.1803Conqueror.3682Dadnir.5038DeceiverX.8361Zenix.6198Edge.8724Auburner.6945 8 votes
<13

Comments

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2019
    Yes, it wasn't really relevant

    I don't see why there should be difference in base health between an Elementalist, a Mesmer and a Necromancer.
    All have powerful offensive spells and all have low armor.

    I 'fix' this myself by loading up on some extra vitality on my Ele, but of course does this make me slightly uncompetitive in sPvP against Mesmers and Necros who do not have to spend attribute points to vitality to obtain the same health pool.

    I'm just talking about the cloth armor casters here. Tanky professions like Warrior require a big health pool for obvious reasons. This should not be changed.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    There's balance issues in the game to be sure, but I don't think it's much related to base health pool. Sure, a lot has changed since it was implemented, but base HP plays such a small role in survivability compared to traits, skills, boons and armor stats.

    I mean it was balance back to core game ... kinda ... cause ele and guardian had the best amount of healing skills/capabilities. Thief was more of kill or be killed so could probably make sense (maybe?)

    but now a lot of classes gain some defensive options or healing capabilities but still get that basic hp pool. THis should be brought up to date to me and i really think that 11k HP with all that dmg out there isn't really viable.

    Guard is fine in sPVP since it runs radiance for crit chance and valkyrie amulet with a huge amount of HP on it . but thief and ele honestly i don't know ...

    For warrior (the other extreme) it might force them to either way pick other amulets that reduce their dmg input (not talking about full counter tho) or make their survivability less effective (while not nerfing their mechanics)

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    I vote yes, the health pools need some updating because they are clearly an outdated artifact form vanilla GW2 which doesn't function as a great anchor for judging our current pvp game balance. HOWEVER, by how much health pools should be changed is debatable.

    I made a post about this very issue.

    At the very minimum, before we reconsider reworking the health pool system entirely, there is clearly some unfairness between minimum health pool and medium health pool. The gap could be closed by simply adding 100 vitality to low health pool classes at level 80, which would give them 1000 more hp. This would standardize the gaps going from low ---> mid --> high.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:
    I vote yes, the health pools need some updating because they are clearly an outdated artifact form vanilla GW2 which doesn't function as a great anchor for judging our current pvp game balance. HOWEVER, by how much health pools should be changed is debatable.

    I made a post about this very issue.

    At the very minimum, before we reconsider reworking the health pool system entirely, there is clearly some unfairness between minimum health pool and medium health pool. The gap could be closed by simply adding 100 vitality to low health pool classes at level 80, which would give them 1000 more hp. This would standardize the gaps going from low ---> mid --> high.

    yeah basically what I thought ... the gap between both tiers are kinda high (imo) these are hidden stats so it might be easy to fix it ! or maybe it's also hidden coding lol and the current devs don't know where to find that code haha

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    All low HP classes would benefit from it and most medium vitality classes wouldnt be that hard affected.
    Warrior and necro are tanky enough and do not really need it anyway.
    All Medium would be good.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019
    No, it works just fine

    It's fine as is, maybe save spellbreaker. But squishies need to be squishy, since their core kits have ample tools to escape/negate damage. If you paired that up with higher base healthpools things would get outta hand.

    Conversly necro that has no "0 damage defenses" and is by design a facetank class needs a big fat healthpool. Trimming that down is nefring a class that is already infamous for it's sustain issues in competitive...

  • No, it works just fine

    I actually think the system is fine. People are just complaining because the favorite class they play is squishy and they are not smart enough to learn fights and avoid damage..... This game is all about out smarting the fight not face tanking the fight....

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No, it's still well designed

    I think it's a good design overall -- really emphasizes class roles. The only time it's a concern is in PvP. In that case, the problem is that a class like Ele which is already super squishy and hard to play becomes harder to play.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019
    Yes , it's outdated

    It very out dated the only way it works if you also have variation in the amount of power classes have. Unless you want to let the low hp classes have the highest power and the high hp classes have the lowest power the hp system from class to call dose not work. It will become a worst and worst problem as they add in high risk rolls for the low hp classes and low risk rolls for high hp classes. It has a lot to do with the massive problem with the current elite spec we have now.

    I did a talk on it a few months ago.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/57734/hp-def-class-variation-with-out-power-precision#latest

    You simply cant have def effect different from class to class with out asking attk effects to differ from class to class or your going to have in-balance with the base classes that may have some build in fixes to make up for it as well as having massive in-balance with long run of new elite spec. The fear is having that war class with all in dmg ranged attks having a high base hp and def on a class who can do dmg at a safe ranges.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    The System is outdated!

    on january - march 2015 balance in this game was 8.5/10
    after that stupid conditions patch balance was 6/10
    After the first expansion balance was 4/10 and its still on a 4.5/10.

    Maybe in 5 years we have a 8/10 .....just joking :-/ balance will always be bad because no one cares about balance -______-

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
    It's fine as is, maybe save spellbreaker. But squishies need to be squishy, since their core kits have ample tools to escape/negate damage. If you paired that up with higher base healthpools things would get outta hand.

    Conversly necro that has no "0 damage defenses" and is by design a facetank class needs a big fat healthpool. Trimming that down is nefring a class that is already infamous for it's sustain issues in competitive...

    What you said is true, but have you considered that maybe necro hp would stay where it is, meanwhile we buff/change medium and minimum health pool?

    As it stands now, those who sit in minimum health pool are forced to take vitality (and a significant amount of it too) in pvp and wvw. This means they are unable to take certain stat comboes, or certain amulets in pvp (like Destroyer's) whereas the max hp pool is free to do so.

    The buffs required wouldn't even be that large. For starters, the gap between minimum health pool and medium health pool is larger than the gap between medium health pool and max health pool, so just giving 1k hp to minimum health pool would make things a bit more fair.

  • Rysdude.3824Rysdude.3824 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    Should have a changing hp pool depending on elite spec.

    For instance, mirage should be in tier 1. Whearas core is fine in tier 2.

    This is a great idea. Needs fine tuning per spec but a good general direction.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
    It's fine as is, maybe save spellbreaker. But squishies need to be squishy, since their core kits have ample tools to escape/negate damage. If you paired that up with higher base healthpools things would get outta hand.

    Conversly necro that has no "0 damage defenses" and is by design a facetank class needs a big fat healthpool. Trimming that down is nefring a class that is already infamous for it's sustain issues in competitive...

    I know right but elite specs doesn't have the same capabilities in term of evading frames etc ... so why make it equal within the same class with 2 elites specs (or maybe 3 some day)

    That was my point on reducing it . Because core specs aren't representative anymore of that "hp pool balance" when you consider either one elite spec or another. So decreasing its impact (by decreasing the deviation between tiers) in the balancing might be a solution (or maybe not)

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    You need to remember that Guardian, Elementalist and Theif are VERY potent in what they do, such as firebrand support or burning, thief DPS ele DPS etc, in raids atm necromancers and warriors have, at best, 2 jobs.while Elementalists, guardians and thieves can be a few. with ele being HK, Power DPS or support tempest, Guard being support firebrand condi firebrand or power DH and thief being POwer DE power DD or condi DD. Warrior is Just banner slave, and Necro is just for cases where Epidemic is useful ( which is a pity). SO until they make every profession have equal ability to do X,Y,Z they shouldn't change any health pools and the current ones signify which does the most, with Lowest HP having 3 jobs, Medium having 2 and Highest having 1.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    You need to remember that Guardian, Elementalist and Theif are VERY potent in what they do, such as firebrand support or burning, thief DPS ele DPS etc, in raids atm necromancers and warriors have, at best, 2 jobs.while Elementalists, guardians and thieves can be a few. with ele being HK, Power DPS or support tempest, Guard being support firebrand condi firebrand or power DH and thief being POwer DE power DD or condi DD. Warrior is Just banner slave, and Necro is just for cases where Epidemic is useful ( which is a pity). SO until they make every profession have equal ability to do X,Y,Z they shouldn't change any health pools and the current ones signify which does the most, with Lowest HP having 3 jobs, Medium having 2 and Highest having 1.

    I'm sorry but ele is currently nothing in this game except some niche builds and it's melting to anything (as long as it get hits)
    Support tempest doesn't exist since it provides only healing and nothing else (almost) but that's class design issue ... not the topic here !

    And don't be too dramatic 2k HP won't change the entire world :)

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    You need to remember that Guardian, Elementalist and Theif are VERY potent in what they do, such as firebrand support or burning, thief DPS ele DPS etc, in raids atm necromancers and warriors have, at best, 2 jobs.while Elementalists, guardians and thieves can be a few. with ele being HK, Power DPS or support tempest, Guard being support firebrand condi firebrand or power DH and thief being POwer DE power DD or condi DD. Warrior is Just banner slave, and Necro is just for cases where Epidemic is useful ( which is a pity). SO until they make every profession have equal ability to do X,Y,Z they shouldn't change any health pools and the current ones signify which does the most, with Lowest HP having 3 jobs, Medium having 2 and Highest having 1.

    I'm sorry but ele is currently nothing in this game except some niche builds and it's melting to anything (as long as it get hits)
    Support tempest doesn't exist since it provides only healing and nothing else (almost) but that's class design issue ... not the topic here !

    And don't be too dramatic 2k HP won't change the entire world :)

    weaver gets a trait for + vitality, and I have to say on my weaver I never die due to all the evades and invulns I get. Tempest support applies protection regen and swiftness, and auras ( including 10% damage reduction) to everyone, and as far as I know I don't run any niche builds on ele, I just run weaver with stances,

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other (maybe?)

    Reducing the gap between health pool would only allow a few people to realize it wouldn't change anything in a positive way. Elementalists would still complain that they they have the least amount of health and the weakest armor, while on the opposite spectrum, the necromancer would take another hit to it's sustain.

    Each professions have defensive tools balanced around their health pool, some choose to not use those tools while other do or are forced to use them. modifying the health pool would be followed by a train of survivability nerf/buff that would just create confusion for most of the players. This would especially hurt the elementalist's mind to see some of their defensive/sustain tools nerfed when the warrior or necromancer see it's own buffed.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    weaver gets a trait for + vitality, and I have to say on my weaver I never die due to all the evades and invulns I get. Tempest support applies protection regen and swiftness, and auras ( including 10% damage reduction) to everyone, and as far as I know I don't run any niche builds on ele, I just run weaver with stances,

    you mean the minor one that gives HP on sword? and what kind of support an aura can bring? maybe the frost aura is great for the 10% dmg reduction (for 4 sec)

    Sorry to tell you ... but sword weaver is a niche build = specific to a unique role and not effective in any other situations.

    but i'm not talking about elite specs here but core classification anyway... so if you could stay on the topic , i would highly appreciate it.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (maybe?)

    While it doesnt really matter for PvE that much, I think the system could use some form of adjustment for the competitive modes.

    Ele is a pretty good example for this.
    While in vanilla the class had more or less a "backline DPS" role, the 11k HP pool initially made sense.
    Then with HoT came Tempest. And if you consider the nature of Overloads (they are very close-ish range) and shouts, it became more of a melee spec.
    Same with weaver.

    I think however, that elitespec traits should take care of those adjustments rather than the baseline system....cause for core classes those tiers actually work fine.
    Draconic Fortitude (herald) or Master's Fortitude (Weaver) are good examples for this. Having such traits as minor traits wouldn't even necessarily affect build choices.

    Then again....a 8k deviation for baseline HP Pools seems is indeed a lot....especially considering there also are different armor tiers.
    So personally I wouldnt really mind if low and high tier HP pools got some minor adjustments (like ~ 1k-1.5k higher or lower respectively).

  • syszery.1592syszery.1592 Member ✭✭✭

    So basically: Buff Guard, Thief, Ele - nerf all other professions...

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @syszery.1592 said:
    So basically: Buff Guard, Thief, Ele - nerf all other professions...

    nerf warrior - necromancer

    don't touch ranger - revenant- mesmer- engineer ... try to be more accurate plz :D

  • No, it works just fine

    The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well.

    it was the case in 2k12 ... if we follow your logic... what to do with mirages ? with soulbeast? with warrior that has block - evades - stability - endure pain - great regen on F1 - full counter ? With scourge barrier - rez ability - boon corrupt spam?

    those are not low tier HP.

  • No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well.

    it was the case in 2k12 ... if we follow your logic... what to do with mirages ? with soulbeast? with warrior that has block - evades - stability - endure pain - great regen on F1 - full counter ? With scourge barrier - rez ability - boon corrupt spam?

    those are not low tier HP.

    This does not change my point, they are not based on vitality to survive and they already have abilities that allow them to survive and to have meta build in every game content, not all the classes in the game work the same way and it is required that all have the same HP is right to be reworked also part of the class mechanics.
    Mirage right now is not exactly the example of balance, SB in second place.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well.

    it was the case in 2k12 ... if we follow your logic... what to do with mirages ? with soulbeast? with warrior that has block - evades - stability - endure pain - great regen on F1 - full counter ? With scourge barrier - rez ability - boon corrupt spam?

    those are not low tier HP.

    This does not change my point, they are not based on vitality to survive and they already have abilities that allow them to survive and to have meta build in every game content, not all the classes in the game work the same way and it is required that all have the same HP is right to be reworked also part of the class mechanics.
    Mirage right now is not exactly the example of balance, SB in second place.

    this kinda can be interpreted as that now in the actual context as something not really valuable and should be removed tho hahaha since vitality isn't needed anymore to survive so why keep these differences in hp pool? (which isn't my point tho... i just want it to be updated)

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    weaver gets a trait for + vitality, and I have to say on my weaver I never die due to all the evades and invulns I get. Tempest support applies protection regen and swiftness, and auras ( including 10% damage reduction) to everyone, and as far as I know I don't run any niche builds on ele, I just run weaver with stances,

    you mean the minor one that gives HP on sword? and what kind of support an aura can bring? maybe the frost aura is great for the 10% dmg reduction (for 4 sec)

    Sorry to tell you ... but sword weaver is a niche build = specific to a unique role and not effective in any other situations.

    but i'm not talking about elite specs here but core classification anyway... so if you could stay on the topic , i would highly appreciate it.

    If you mean All "Damage" is niche then yes, if you mean a specific weapon is, then no.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    weaver gets a trait for + vitality, and I have to say on my weaver I never die due to all the evades and invulns I get. Tempest support applies protection regen and swiftness, and auras ( including 10% damage reduction) to everyone, and as far as I know I don't run any niche builds on ele, I just run weaver with stances,

    you mean the minor one that gives HP on sword? and what kind of support an aura can bring? maybe the frost aura is great for the 10% dmg reduction (for 4 sec)

    Sorry to tell you ... but sword weaver is a niche build = specific to a unique role and not effective in any other situations.

    but i'm not talking about elite specs here but core classification anyway... so if you could stay on the topic , i would highly appreciate it.

    If you mean All "Damage" is niche then yes, if you mean a specific weapon is, then no.

    it's not that important but the weaver build (in sPVP) works only as a sidenoder vs some specific matchup or vs lower rank player that doesn't know how to handle it...

    It's pretty easy to "counter" it when you know how to do ! that's what i meant by "niche".

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    weaver gets a trait for + vitality, and I have to say on my weaver I never die due to all the evades and invulns I get. Tempest support applies protection regen and swiftness, and auras ( including 10% damage reduction) to everyone, and as far as I know I don't run any niche builds on ele, I just run weaver with stances,

    you mean the minor one that gives HP on sword? and what kind of support an aura can bring? maybe the frost aura is great for the 10% dmg reduction (for 4 sec)

    Sorry to tell you ... but sword weaver is a niche build = specific to a unique role and not effective in any other situations.

    but i'm not talking about elite specs here but core classification anyway... so if you could stay on the topic , i would highly appreciate it.

    If you mean All "Damage" is niche then yes, if you mean a specific weapon is, then no.

    it's not that important but the weaver build (in sPVP) works only as a sidenoder vs some specific matchup or vs lower rank player that doesn't know how to handle it...

    It's pretty easy to "counter" it when you know how to do ! that's what i meant by "niche".

    in PvE it is quite useful, I would say PvE, Pvp and WvW all having separate "balances" means changing the health would change everything honestly, SO what can only be Niche in one mode can be versatile in another.

  • Eme.2018Eme.2018 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it's still well designed

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    I think it's a good design overall -- really emphasizes class roles. The only time it's a concern is in PvP. In that case, the problem is that a class like Ele which is already super squishy and hard to play becomes harder to play.

    Ele has low HP but its kit comes with tones of sustain and damage mitigation which make it not that squishy at all (and which I think justifies the low HP). Bunker Tempest was a fine example of that.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Eme.2018 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    I think it's a good design overall -- really emphasizes class roles. The only time it's a concern is in PvP. In that case, the problem is that a class like Ele which is already super squishy and hard to play becomes harder to play.

    Ele has low HP but its kit comes with tones of sustain and damage mitigation which make it not that squishy at all (and which I think justifies the low HP). Bunker Tempest was a fine example of that.

    bunker isn't a thing anymore :) so another argue to say it's outdated :D then why mirage is still medium tier with all its dmg mitigation? I mean i agee with the argue behind that like 6 years ago ... but right now it makes almost no (enough) sense to me. That's why i was not "complaining" back then .

  • Eme.2018Eme.2018 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it's still well designed

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
    bunker isn't a thing anymore :) so another argue to say it's outdated :D

    Bunker was an example, the general argument still stands Ele still has more damage mitigation than any other class thus it gets low HP.

    then why mirage is still medium tier with all its dmg mitigation?

    Mirage is a special case. Have you not seen the endless nerf Mesmer-Mirage posts?

    Also :D stop :) putting :D smileys :) after :) every :) kitten :) sentence :D.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other (maybe?)

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

    I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons.

    Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes.

    In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    Rework the entire tier system (more tier or swap classes from tiers)

    Just tune the health pool for each profession and elite spec individually.

    It would add some flavor and allow Anet to play around more with designing specs if elite specs had stat bonuses and negatives tied to them. It would also help the whole elite specs are sidegrades notion that they tried to push but failed at in most cases.

  • Patrick.2987Patrick.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    What about armor? Right now you have heavy medium and light armor aswell not only healthpools to balance.

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    I never really understood the difference in health pools. It just further causes problems with profession balance. I'd rather the hp be normalized across every profession and toughness/armor be more important (heavy professions having the most cause plate armor, and light professions having the least).

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    Bring everyone down to the 11k HP, let the fun and sat begin.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

    You would argue that, but you are not touching on my argument at all. I said that is doesn't have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. A better case for elementalist survivability is made here.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

    I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons.

    Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes.

    In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck.

    It's true that you can go on and stack lots of defenses as an elementalist, but the whole point is that elementalist is an unbalanceable mess because of it. You can stack lots of defenses and hit like a wet noodle, or you can try going for a damage build that is the laughing stock of damage builds as far as survivability goes. There is no good middle ground to be found because elementalist class design is very flawed. This is what I mean by low inherent survivability. Unless you go out of your way to invest almost everything into suvivability, you will be ineffective.

    Other classes do not have to bother investing their entire build into survivability, because it can be really good with minimal investment compared to ele. You do mention conditions here, but they are likely the main reason why ele needs to go full bunker. The devs thought that it was a genius idea to tie all condi cleanse to water and elementalist will never see a competitive damage build until something radical is done.

    I fear that instead of actually reworking the class, they will put a band-aid in the form of an elite spec, just like they did with engineer. A spec with an OP F5 form that carries a bad profession in competitive modes.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

    I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons.

    Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes.

    In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck.

    then why no elementalist runs that build? and i'm sorry but ele can survive easier vs condies (with water traitline being mandatory and a lot of regen application) than power dmg ...

    Succeed on bursting an ele and he's dead (almost)

    but out of topic

    @Eme.2018 said:
    Also :D stop :) putting :D smileys :) after :) every :) kitten :) sentence :D.

    It makes the post more friendly and ppl tends to be less agressive.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Eme.2018 said:
    Also :D stop :) putting :D smileys :) after :) every :) kitten :) sentence :D.

    It makes the post more friendly and ppl tends to be less agressive.

    No. It makes you just come off as passive aggressive and condescending.

  • Nath Forge Tempete.1645Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2019
    Yes , it's outdated

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Eme.2018 said:
    Also :D stop :) putting :D smileys :) after :) every :) kitten :) sentence :D.

    It makes the post more friendly and ppl tends to be less agressive.

    No. It makes you just come off as passive aggressive and condescending.

    that illustrate My point basically

    Because ppl are too agressive in their argue and thinks that I 'm passive aggressive and condescending while i'm just not in the mood of being mad at ppl that doesn't think like me :D always smiling is my philosophy. and I just start to make it in the virtual world too !

    OFF TOPIC

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
    It's well known that all classes (with the same amount of stats ) doesnt have the same amount of HP. There are actually 3 tiers since the core release back to 2012.

    Tier 1 : low hp pool (11k hp)

    • Elementalist
    • Thief
    • Guardian

    Tier 2 : middle pool ( 15k hp)

    • Mesmer
    • Ranger
    • Engineer
    • Revenant

    Tier 3 : High pool (19k HP)

    • Warrior
    • Necromancer

    WIth the release of new elite specs, it feels like some of these categorizations are a little outdated. For me tho... it feels like the tiers are too spread from 11k to 19k ... 8k hp feels huge especially in the power creep state the game is right know.

    My opinion is to rather increase low pool to 13k and reduce the high to 17k. But necromancer would probably really suffer from the "nerf" . An easy fix would be to had some more HP (such as herald got with its rework) on a minor trait but will make the trait line mandatory tho ...

    or maybe just review the tier classification.

    What do you think?

    Buff tanky thieves at the expense of already squishy necro, sounds like an amazing idea /sarcasm

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
    It's well known that all classes (with the same amount of stats ) doesnt have the same amount of HP. There are actually 3 tiers since the core release back to 2012.

    Tier 1 : low hp pool (11k hp)

    • Elementalist
    • Thief
    • Guardian

    Tier 2 : middle pool ( 15k hp)

    • Mesmer
    • Ranger
    • Engineer
    • Revenant

    Tier 3 : High pool (19k HP)

    • Warrior
    • Necromancer

    WIth the release of new elite specs, it feels like some of these categorizations are a little outdated. For me tho... it feels like the tiers are too spread from 11k to 19k ... 8k hp feels huge especially in the power creep state the game is right know.

    My opinion is to rather increase low pool to 13k and reduce the high to 17k. But necromancer would probably really suffer from the "nerf" . An easy fix would be to had some more HP (such as herald got with its rework) on a minor trait but will make the trait line mandatory tho ...

    or maybe just review the tier classification.

    What do you think?

    Buff tanky thieves at the expense of already squishy necro, sounds like an amazing idea /sarcasm

    it's not like it will change the entire world for 2k HP LOL

    I don't mind you disagreeing but sarcasm is kinda disresepctfull tho

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
    It's well known that all classes (with the same amount of stats ) doesnt have the same amount of HP. There are actually 3 tiers since the core release back to 2012.

    Tier 1 : low hp pool (11k hp)

    • Elementalist
    • Thief
    • Guardian

    Tier 2 : middle pool ( 15k hp)

    • Mesmer
    • Ranger
    • Engineer
    • Revenant

    Tier 3 : High pool (19k HP)

    • Warrior
    • Necromancer

    WIth the release of new elite specs, it feels like some of these categorizations are a little outdated. For me tho... it feels like the tiers are too spread from 11k to 19k ... 8k hp feels huge especially in the power creep state the game is right know.

    My opinion is to rather increase low pool to 13k and reduce the high to 17k. But necromancer would probably really suffer from the "nerf" . An easy fix would be to had some more HP (such as herald got with its rework) on a minor trait but will make the trait line mandatory tho ...

    or maybe just review the tier classification.

    What do you think?

    Buff tanky thieves at the expense of already squishy necro, sounds like an amazing idea /sarcasm

    it's not like it will change the entire world for 2k HP LOL

    I don't mind you disagreeing but sarcasm is kinda disresepctfull tho

    1. if it's so little then why propose it?
    2. 2k Hp is not insignificant
    3. All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.
    4. Sarcasm isn't that disrespectful tbh, especially when applied to absurd statements

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • No, it works just fine

    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.

    than buff ele !

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