Reducing the gap between all HP pool tier ? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Reducing the gap between all HP pool tier ?

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  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.

    than buff ele !

    Best option is to bring every class down to the 11k HP pool, perfectly even playing field and no class gets any buffs.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2019

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.

    than buff ele !

    Best option is to bring every class down to the 11k HP pool, perfectly even playing field and no class gets any buffs.

    Nope. Just the classes that were already at 11 get nerfs so the playing field is still even. Either that or the amount of active defense for everyone is rebalanced so everything is still relative.

    There would be no realistic way the Hp gap changes or is removed without every single form of active defense beening revised because classes are intrinsically designed around it whether people care to admit or not.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.

    than buff ele !

    Best option is to bring every class down to the 11k HP pool, perfectly even playing field and no class gets any buffs.

    Nope. Just the classes that were already at 11 get nerfs so the playing field is still even. Either that or the amount of active defense for everyone is rebalanced so everything is still relative.

    There would be no realistic way the Hp gap changes or is removed without every single form of active defense beening revised because classes are intrinsically designed around it whether people care to admit or not.

    If that was the case then the higher hp classes wouldn’t have gotten more active defenses either certain elite specs... but hey those are just the facts..

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2019

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.

    than buff ele !

    Best option is to bring every class down to the 11k HP pool, perfectly even playing field and no class gets any buffs.

    Nope. Just the classes that were already at 11 get nerfs so the playing field is still even. Either that or the amount of active defense for everyone is rebalanced so everything is still relative.

    There would be no realistic way the Hp gap changes or is removed without every single form of active defense beening revised because classes are intrinsically designed around it whether people care to admit or not.

    If that was the case then the higher hp classes wouldn’t have gotten more active defenses either certain elite specs... but hey those are just the facts..

    Yet the lower health classes still have more. Only classes that is super out of whack is mirage and soulbeast,in certain builds but that is nothing new for anyone.

    This thread is just ele mains believing that more health will solve the inherent issues that their class has when it fact it won't.

    Any change to a classes base health would come with a change to the state of its defences. Be they cool down, healing, blocks, blinds, invulns,mobility and stealth.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2019
    Yes , it's outdated

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.

    than buff ele !

    Best option is to bring every class down to the 11k HP pool, perfectly even playing field and no class gets any buffs.

    Nope. Just the classes that were already at 11 get nerfs so the playing field is still even. Either that or the amount of active defense for everyone is rebalanced so everything is still relative.

    There would be no realistic way the Hp gap changes or is removed without every single form of active defense beening revised because classes are intrinsically designed around it whether people care to admit or not.

    If that was the case then the higher hp classes wouldn’t have gotten more active defenses either certain elite specs... but hey those are just the facts..

    Yet the lower health classes still have more. Only classes that is super out of whack is mirage and soulbeast,in certain builds but that is nothing new for anyone.

    This thread is just ele mains believing that more health will solve the inherent issues that their class has when it fact it won't.

    Again if active defenses were based on hp pool they wouldn’t have given the higher hp pool classes more active defenses, which is what happened, it doesn’t matter that certain lower hp class had more active defenses, the fact that they gave more active defenses to higher hp classes disproves your theory, because by your logic they were already designed around their current amount of active defenses and didn’t need more.

    And yeah I’m totally an ele main, and I’m totally asking for lower hp classes to get an hp buff... smh 🤦‍♂️

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.

    than buff ele !

    Yes, this should happen, especially support tempest should get meaningful buffs (none of this 10 targets kitten). But buffing them by changing around the entire hp tier system is a very bad way to do it. It's a blunt way of changing it that creates multiple splash buffs and nerfs. Since ele is too weak then ele deserves to get real buffs.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.

    than buff ele !

    Best option is to bring every class down to the 11k HP pool, perfectly even playing field and no class gets any buffs.

    Nope. Just the classes that were already at 11 get nerfs so the playing field is still even. Either that or the amount of active defense for everyone is rebalanced so everything is still relative.

    There would be no realistic way the Hp gap changes or is removed without every single form of active defense beening revised because classes are intrinsically designed around it whether people care to admit or not.

    If that was the case then the higher hp classes wouldn’t have gotten more active defenses either certain elite specs... but hey those are just the facts..

    Yet the lower health classes still have more. Only classes that is super out of whack is mirage and soulbeast,in certain builds but that is nothing new for anyone.

    This thread is just ele mains believing that more health will solve the inherent issues that their class has when it fact it won't.

    Again if active defenses were based on hp pool they wouldn’t have given the higher hp pool classes more active defenses, which is what happened, it doesn’t matter that certain lower hp class had more active defenses, the fact that they gave more active defenses to higher hp classes disproves your theory, because by your logic they were already designed around their current amount of active defenses and didn’t need more.

    And yeah I’m totally an ele main, and I’m totally asking for lower hp classes to get an hp buff... smh 🤦‍♂️

    You're missing the point that everything is relative. You're saying the elite specs of the higher hp classes got more active defenses when the exact same can be said for the lower hp classes. Almost everyone has received more active defence in at least one their elite specs.

    You're also neglecting the design philosophy behind some specs promoting a different playstyle.

    The lower your health the larger the amount of access to active defence you have. It's a general term since it holds true in pretty much every case.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2019
    Yes , it's outdated

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.

    than buff ele !

    Best option is to bring every class down to the 11k HP pool, perfectly even playing field and no class gets any buffs.

    Nope. Just the classes that were already at 11 get nerfs so the playing field is still even. Either that or the amount of active defense for everyone is rebalanced so everything is still relative.

    There would be no realistic way the Hp gap changes or is removed without every single form of active defense beening revised because classes are intrinsically designed around it whether people care to admit or not.

    If that was the case then the higher hp classes wouldn’t have gotten more active defenses either certain elite specs... but hey those are just the facts..

    Yet the lower health classes still have more. Only classes that is super out of whack is mirage and soulbeast,in certain builds but that is nothing new for anyone.

    This thread is just ele mains believing that more health will solve the inherent issues that their class has when it fact it won't.

    Again if active defenses were based on hp pool they wouldn’t have given the higher hp pool classes more active defenses, which is what happened, it doesn’t matter that certain lower hp class had more active defenses, the fact that they gave more active defenses to higher hp classes disproves your theory, because by your logic they were already designed around their current amount of active defenses and didn’t need more.

    And yeah I’m totally an ele main, and I’m totally asking for lower hp classes to get an hp buff... smh 🤦‍♂️

    You're missing the point that everything is relative. You're saying the elite specs of the higher hp classes got more active defenses when the exact same can be said for the lower hp classes. Almost everyone has received more active defence in at least one their elite specs.

    You're also neglecting the design philosophy behind some specs promoting a different playstyle.

    The lower your health the larger the amount of access to active defence you have. It's a general term since it holds true in pretty much every case.

    One. More. Time. A. Little. More...,

    Using your logic the higher hp classes shouldn’t have received more active defenses since they are designed around high hp ie passive defenses and not having more active defenses, some of those higher hp classes have active defenses that rival the amount of active defenses that lower ho classes have, just saying...

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    Since game release damage want through 3 major power creep stages, yet HP pools stayed the same. Tells you how balanced things are.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    All the 11k hp classes except for ele are already top tier and very tanky.

    than buff ele !

    Best option is to bring every class down to the 11k HP pool, perfectly even playing field and no class gets any buffs.

    Nope. Just the classes that were already at 11 get nerfs so the playing field is still even. Either that or the amount of active defense for everyone is rebalanced so everything is still relative.

    There would be no realistic way the Hp gap changes or is removed without every single form of active defense beening revised because classes are intrinsically designed around it whether people care to admit or not.

    If that was the case then the higher hp classes wouldn’t have gotten more active defenses either certain elite specs... but hey those are just the facts..

    Yet the lower health classes still have more. Only classes that is super out of whack is mirage and soulbeast,in certain builds but that is nothing new for anyone.

    This thread is just ele mains believing that more health will solve the inherent issues that their class has when it fact it won't.

    Again if active defenses were based on hp pool they wouldn’t have given the higher hp pool classes more active defenses, which is what happened, it doesn’t matter that certain lower hp class had more active defenses, the fact that they gave more active defenses to higher hp classes disproves your theory, because by your logic they were already designed around their current amount of active defenses and didn’t need more.

    And yeah I’m totally an ele main, and I’m totally asking for lower hp classes to get an hp buff... smh 🤦‍♂️

    You're missing the point that everything is relative. You're saying the elite specs of the higher hp classes got more active defenses when the exact same can be said for the lower hp classes. Almost everyone has received more active defence in at least one their elite specs.

    You're also neglecting the design philosophy behind some specs promoting a different playstyle.

    The lower your health the larger the amount of access to active defence you have. It's a general term since it holds true in pretty much every case.

    One. More. Time. A. Little. More...,

    Using your logic the higher hp classes shouldn’t have received more active defenses since they are designed around high hp ie passive defenses and not having more active defenses, some of those higher hp classes have active defenses that rival the amount of active defenses that lower ho classes have, just saying...

    You've completely missed the logic I am using so I am just going to agree to disagree with you as there is no point in continuing.

  • No, it works just fine

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

  • No, it works just fine

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

    A noob on a reaper is less likely to die than a noob on an ele, they can both be the same skill level, but once they get better the tables turn, the ele has a lot more active defenses and sustain than a reaper who is a glorified punching bag, you are looking for something that isn't there.

    And that's all the scourge has, don't forget their ability to use the F skills are tied to their LF, which is tied to their hp. They have no real mobility to speak of, gets 2 normal dodges , they don't go around with perma-protection or other useful boons like a holo, no blocks or invulns, 90% of their damage is capped at 900 range -> they are literally just a free kill if found alone. Reaper does a lot more damage than a scourge, IDK why you are trying to compare them.

    I can't really make sense of the rest.

  • Nath Forge Tempete.1645Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2019
    Yes , it's outdated

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

    A noob on a reaper is less likely to die than a noob on an ele, they can both be the same skill level, but once they get better the tables turn, the ele has a lot more active defenses and sustain than a reaper who is a glorified punching bag, you are looking for something that isn't there.

    And that's all the scourge has, don't forget their ability to use the F skills are tied to their LF, which is tied to their hp. They have no real mobility to speak of, gets 2 normal dodges , they don't go around with perma-protection or other useful boons like a holo, no blocks or invulns, 90% of their damage is capped at 900 range -> they are literally just a free kill if found alone. Reaper does a lot more damage than a scourge, IDK why you are trying to compare them.

    I can't really make sense of the rest.

    the reaper has just to crit and facetank to win ... ele needs more stat to crit since it has to take some vitality not needed for necro and then it can't facetank but again OFF TOPIC

  • No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

    A noob on a reaper is less likely to die than a noob on an ele, they can both be the same skill level, but once they get better the tables turn, the ele has a lot more active defenses and sustain than a reaper who is a glorified punching bag, you are looking for something that isn't there.

    And that's all the scourge has, don't forget their ability to use the F skills are tied to their LF, which is tied to their hp. They have no real mobility to speak of, gets 2 normal dodges , they don't go around with perma-protection or other useful boons like a holo, no blocks or invulns, 90% of their damage is capped at 900 range -> they are literally just a free kill if found alone. Reaper does a lot more damage than a scourge, IDK why you are trying to compare them.

    I can't really make sense of the rest.

    the reaper has just to crit and facetank to win ... ele needs more stat to crit since it has to take some vitality not needed for necro and then it can't facetank but again OFF TOPIC

    in what context? Pve?pvp?

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

    A noob on a reaper is less likely to die than a noob on an ele, they can both be the same skill level, but once they get better the tables turn, the ele has a lot more active defenses and sustain than a reaper who is a glorified punching bag, you are looking for something that isn't there.

    And that's all the scourge has, don't forget their ability to use the F skills are tied to their LF, which is tied to their hp. They have no real mobility to speak of, gets 2 normal dodges , they don't go around with perma-protection or other useful boons like a holo, no blocks or invulns, 90% of their damage is capped at 900 range -> they are literally just a free kill if found alone. Reaper does a lot more damage than a scourge, IDK why you are trying to compare them.

    I can't really make sense of the rest.

    the reaper has just to crit and facetank to win ... ele needs more stat to crit since it has to take some vitality not needed for necro and then it can't facetank but again OFF TOPIC

    in what context? Pve?pvp?

    any ... except raids ofc...

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

    A noob on a reaper is less likely to die than a noob on an ele, they can both be the same skill level, but once they get better the tables turn, the ele has a lot more active defenses and sustain than a reaper who is a glorified punching bag, you are looking for something that isn't there.

    And that's all the scourge has, don't forget their ability to use the F skills are tied to their LF, which is tied to their hp. They have no real mobility to speak of, gets 2 normal dodges , they don't go around with perma-protection or other useful boons like a holo, no blocks or invulns, 90% of their damage is capped at 900 range -> they are literally just a free kill if found alone. Reaper does a lot more damage than a scourge, IDK why you are trying to compare them.

    I can't really make sense of the rest.

    the reaper has just to crit and facetank to win ... ele needs more stat to crit since it has to take some vitality not needed for necro and then it can't facetank but again OFF TOPIC

    in what context? Pve?pvp?

    any ... except raids ofc...

    Not to be rude, but if you had actually tried reaper in PvP or even more relevant for this topic WvW you'd know it's actually the squishiest class in the game.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

    A noob on a reaper is less likely to die than a noob on an ele, they can both be the same skill level, but once they get better the tables turn, the ele has a lot more active defenses and sustain than a reaper who is a glorified punching bag, you are looking for something that isn't there.

    And that's all the scourge has, don't forget their ability to use the F skills are tied to their LF, which is tied to their hp. They have no real mobility to speak of, gets 2 normal dodges , they don't go around with perma-protection or other useful boons like a holo, no blocks or invulns, 90% of their damage is capped at 900 range -> they are literally just a free kill if found alone. Reaper does a lot more damage than a scourge, IDK why you are trying to compare them.

    I can't really make sense of the rest.

    the reaper has just to crit and facetank to win ... ele needs more stat to crit since it has to take some vitality not needed for necro and then it can't facetank but again OFF TOPIC

    in what context? Pve?pvp?

    any ... except raids ofc...

    Not to be rude, but if you had actually tried reaper in PvP or even more relevant for this topic WvW you'd know it's actually the squishiest class in the game.

    Actually I have a lot of games played in sPVP (not a huge amount as a "pro player" ) but quite a good amount and a certain understanding of both classes :) i never sticked to one class ^^ but i guess it's easier to judge and criticize than ask if it the case or not :D (now i'm passive agressive - i'm kinda sick of ppl personal attacks here)

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

    A noob on a reaper is less likely to die than a noob on an ele, they can both be the same skill level, but once they get better the tables turn, the ele has a lot more active defenses and sustain than a reaper who is a glorified punching bag, you are looking for something that isn't there.

    And that's all the scourge has, don't forget their ability to use the F skills are tied to their LF, which is tied to their hp. They have no real mobility to speak of, gets 2 normal dodges , they don't go around with perma-protection or other useful boons like a holo, no blocks or invulns, 90% of their damage is capped at 900 range -> they are literally just a free kill if found alone. Reaper does a lot more damage than a scourge, IDK why you are trying to compare them.

    I can't really make sense of the rest.

    the reaper has just to crit and facetank to win ... ele needs more stat to crit since it has to take some vitality not needed for necro and then it can't facetank but again OFF TOPIC

    in what context? Pve?pvp?

    any ... except raids ofc...

    Not to be rude, but if you had actually tried reaper in PvP or even more relevant for this topic WvW you'd know it's actually the squishiest class in the game.

    Actually I have a lot of games played in sPVP (not a huge amount as a "pro player" ) but quite a good amount and a certain understanding of both classes :) i never sticked to one class ^^ but i guess it's easier to judge and criticize than ask if it the case or not :D (now i'm passive agressive - i'm kinda sick of ppl personal attacks here)

    Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

    A noob on a reaper is less likely to die than a noob on an ele, they can both be the same skill level, but once they get better the tables turn, the ele has a lot more active defenses and sustain than a reaper who is a glorified punching bag, you are looking for something that isn't there.

    And that's all the scourge has, don't forget their ability to use the F skills are tied to their LF, which is tied to their hp. They have no real mobility to speak of, gets 2 normal dodges , they don't go around with perma-protection or other useful boons like a holo, no blocks or invulns, 90% of their damage is capped at 900 range -> they are literally just a free kill if found alone. Reaper does a lot more damage than a scourge, IDK why you are trying to compare them.

    I can't really make sense of the rest.

    Reapers are more glassy then scorge yet reapers is more melee aimed then scorge with in the classes you find the lack of def balancing to be off and this IS part of the hp balancing from class to class.

    Your noob argument is still forgetting that the build in higher hp classes are more noob ish and less skilled over all because of the "free" hp they get. So you ARE saying that worst players play higher hp classes lol.

  • No, it works just fine

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

    A noob on a reaper is less likely to die than a noob on an ele, they can both be the same skill level, but once they get better the tables turn, the ele has a lot more active defenses and sustain than a reaper who is a glorified punching bag, you are looking for something that isn't there.

    And that's all the scourge has, don't forget their ability to use the F skills are tied to their LF, which is tied to their hp. They have no real mobility to speak of, gets 2 normal dodges , they don't go around with perma-protection or other useful boons like a holo, no blocks or invulns, 90% of their damage is capped at 900 range -> they are literally just a free kill if found alone. Reaper does a lot more damage than a scourge, IDK why you are trying to compare them.

    I can't really make sense of the rest.

    the reaper has just to crit and facetank to win ... ele needs more stat to crit since it has to take some vitality not needed for necro and then it can't facetank but again OFF TOPIC

    in what context? Pve?pvp?

    any ... except raids ofc...

    Not to be rude, but if you had actually tried reaper in PvP or even more relevant for this topic WvW you'd know it's actually the squishiest class in the game.

    Actually I have a lot of games played in sPVP (not a huge amount as a "pro player" ) but quite a good amount and a certain understanding of both classes :) i never sticked to one class ^^ but i guess it's easier to judge and criticize than ask if it the case or not :D (now i'm passive agressive - i'm kinda sick of ppl personal attacks here)

    Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it

    squishiest??But muh 2 health bars!1!1

    OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    It's fine how it is, obv bad players on squishy classes will get melted, but good ones are annoying af to kill.

    What a shot sighted point of view would you say ppl who do not play squishy classes are worst then ppl who do?

    All of this to do about what class have what skill is pointless because in time as more elite spec get added in they will ALL have such effect and its for the best to have active def over passive def. So asking for all classes to have near or out right the same def / hp is better for balancing and the game over all.

    Where did I say that? You have noob ele's nearly quitting the game because they are getting farmed by pocket raptors lol. I'm saying it takes more skill to perform well with squishy classes since you don't have much room for error and they require more active gameplay. Right now they don't all have active defenses, so maybe in the future when necro gets blocks/invulns/extra dodges/immunities we can talk?

    Its implied even if you do not want to. If you die as a low def class your not good at that class so ppl who live or die at a higher def class are not good players as well vs that of the person who is good at that low def class.

    Necro mostly scorge atm has some of the most def effects in the game both healing condi clear and "free" hp cover over effects. You dont need to have the same type of effects as long as they reach the same goal of keeping you alive though a lot. The sad thing scorge is an support class who is more tankly then its melee version reaper all because scorge has the same hp as reaper making reaper the melee version less able to melee in the first places.

    Yes they all have def skill and most of these def skills are very base off of there specialization. That a real problem your going to end up with low def classes with high risk set ups that puts them in high risk game play only and high def class with low risk set up that puts them at low risk set up. Your not getting any chase on the low def class vs high def class with each spec added in as these are baked into the core classes. An ele is always going to have that low hp / def even if they are going to play a tankly class elite spec an war is always going to have that high def / hp even if they are going to get a high ranged / dps class (nothing like that yep but it will happen). The only way to fix this is to force the elite spec to have such def effect build in BUT you run into dubbing up on def effects from both the core and there elite spec pushing the class in to op something we see with weaver and its sword.

    Going passed all of that we could just simply make hp more stander (def if we want to as well but not as important). This will let you have elite spec able to give you a lot more effects of def and attk with out risking the super unkillable set up that we DO have in the game now.

    HP is free for some classes and not for others all classes have active def effects and will keep getting them. You will have massive dubbing up in def effect on-top of having more hp / def just because you happen to be the core class NOT because of the roll your playing (dps rolls having the best def in the game or tank rolls having the worst).

    A noob on a reaper is less likely to die than a noob on an ele, they can both be the same skill level, but once they get better the tables turn, the ele has a lot more active defenses and sustain than a reaper who is a glorified punching bag, you are looking for something that isn't there.

    And that's all the scourge has, don't forget their ability to use the F skills are tied to their LF, which is tied to their hp. They have no real mobility to speak of, gets 2 normal dodges , they don't go around with perma-protection or other useful boons like a holo, no blocks or invulns, 90% of their damage is capped at 900 range -> they are literally just a free kill if found alone. Reaper does a lot more damage than a scourge, IDK why you are trying to compare them.

    I can't really make sense of the rest.

    the reaper has just to crit and facetank to win ... ele needs more stat to crit since it has to take some vitality not needed for necro and then it can't facetank but again OFF TOPIC

    in what context? Pve?pvp?

    any ... except raids ofc...

    Not to be rude, but if you had actually tried reaper in PvP or even more relevant for this topic WvW you'd know it's actually the squishiest class in the game.

    Actually I have a lot of games played in sPVP (not a huge amount as a "pro player" ) but quite a good amount and a certain understanding of both classes :) i never sticked to one class ^^ but i guess it's easier to judge and criticize than ask if it the case or not :D (now i'm passive agressive - i'm kinda sick of ppl personal attacks here)

    Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it

    squishiest??But muh 2 health bars!1!1

    Lmao yes the double health bars

    OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now.

    Probably and ele does deserve buffs, an extra 2k hp just isn't the kinda buff they need

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now.

    I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages

    it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ...

    But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :)

    so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games.

    the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast.

    This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know .

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now.

    I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages

    it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ...

    But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :)

    so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games.

    the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast.

    This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know .

    Zerker Weaver (fa scepter) is tanker than zerker necro. Neither is really awesome for sPvP tho.

    The only class that actually runs full glass amulet with any frequency is warrior. Even so what does it matter what amulet you "can" run there's nothing inherently awesome about any amulet, there's only how strong a build is in total.

    Try running full glass necro in Plat 3 or above and tell me how it went.

    Deadshot amulet gives vitality.

    There's a reason necro is always the first target in any fight and it isn't due to their amazing tankiness.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Nath Forge Tempete.1645Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2019
    Yes , it's outdated

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now.

    I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages

    it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ...

    But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :)

    so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games.

    the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast.

    This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know .

    Zerker Weaver (fa scepter) is tanker than zerker necro. Neither is really awesome for sPvP tho.

    The only class that actually runs full glass amulet with any frequency is warrior. Even so what does it matter what amulet you "can" run there's nothing inherently awesome about any amulet, there's only how strong a build is in total.

    Try running full glass necro in Plat 3 or above and tell me how it went.

    Deadshot amulet gives vitality.

    There's a reason necro is always the first target in any fight and it isn't due to their amazing tankiness.

    so you picked that one build that can validate your sayings LUL and no it wasn't zerker :) but marauder cause i needed the vitality but whatever there's no point on talking with you . You seems not to understand what is my point and you focusing on the wrong thing.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2019
    No, it works just fine

    Since marauder is the to go power damage gear for all specs in pvp, which brings HP pools closer together in terms of percentage (11 vs. 19 = +73%, 17 vs. 25 = +47%) I don't see any reason to mess up the system.

    Thief with all its mobility and evades and guard with all its blocks and heals both feel comfortable at 17k HP.

    Try playing reaper on full berserk with 13k shroud. That's extremely glassy!

    The only class that can get away with full zerk gear ist double endure pain warrior.

    Conclusion: ANet should not waste balancing ressouces on this topic.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now.

    I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages

    it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ...

    But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :)

    so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games.

    the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast.

    This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know .

    Zerker Weaver (fa scepter) is tanker than zerker necro. Neither is really awesome for sPvP tho.

    The only class that actually runs full glass amulet with any frequency is warrior. Even so what does it matter what amulet you "can" run there's nothing inherently awesome about any amulet, there's only how strong a build is in total.

    Try running full glass necro in Plat 3 or above and tell me how it went.

    Deadshot amulet gives vitality.

    There's a reason necro is always the first target in any fight and it isn't due to their amazing tankiness.

    so you picked that one build that can validate your sayings LUL and no it wasn't zerker :) but marauder cause i needed the vitality but whatever there's no point on talking with you . You seems not to understand what is my point and you focusing on the wrong thing.

    Nope I picked an 11k hp class that can realistically run full glass and that you said you had played. But I can think of another build that works better in zerker than necro that has 11k base health, thief. Marauder might be more optimal on either for sPvP but both sure work a lot better than zerker necro.

    I do understand your point, you hate necro for some reason and badly want some buffs to whatever you play (which is probably thief), it isn't very hard to understand really.

    Tell me then what should I be focusing on? Because so far I focused on the implications of your suggestion and how most of what you've said is factually incorrect.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

    You would argue that, but you are not touching on my argument at all. I said that is doesn't have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. A better case for elementalist survivability is made here.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

    I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons.

    Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes.

    In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck.

    It's true that you can go on and stack lots of defenses as an elementalist, but the whole point is that elementalist is an unbalanceable mess because of it. You can stack lots of defenses and hit like a wet noodle, or you can try going for a damage build that is the laughing stock of damage builds as far as survivability goes. There is no good middle ground to be found because elementalist class design is very flawed. This is what I mean by low inherent survivability. Unless you go out of your way to invest almost everything into suvivability, you will be ineffective.

    Other classes do not have to bother investing their entire build into survivability, because it can be really good with minimal investment compared to ele. You do mention conditions here, but they are likely the main reason why ele needs to go full bunker. The devs thought that it was a genius idea to tie all condi cleanse to water and elementalist will never see a competitive damage build until something radical is done.

    I fear that instead of actually reworking the class, they will put a band-aid in the form of an elite spec, just like they did with engineer. A spec with an OP F5 form that carries a bad profession in competitive modes.

    But the Invulnerability IS innate, it's part of their weapon mechanics and attunements.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now.

    I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages

    it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ...

    But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :)

    so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games.

    the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast.

    This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know .

    Zerker Weaver (fa scepter) is tanker than zerker necro. Neither is really awesome for sPvP tho.

    The only class that actually runs full glass amulet with any frequency is warrior. Even so what does it matter what amulet you "can" run there's nothing inherently awesome about any amulet, there's only how strong a build is in total.

    Try running full glass necro in Plat 3 or above and tell me how it went.

    Deadshot amulet gives vitality.

    There's a reason necro is always the first target in any fight and it isn't due to their amazing tankiness.

    so you picked that one build that can validate your sayings LUL and no it wasn't zerker :) but marauder cause i needed the vitality but whatever there's no point on talking with you . You seems not to understand what is my point and you focusing on the wrong thing.

    Nope I picked an 11k hp class that can realistically run full glass and that you said you had played. But I can think of another build that works better in zerker than necro that has 11k base health, thief. Marauder might be more optimal on either for sPvP but both sure work a lot better than zerker necro.

    I do understand your point, you hate necro for some reason and badly want some buffs to whatever you play (which is probably thief), it isn't very hard to understand really.

    Tell me then what should I be focusing on? Because so far I focused on the implications of your suggestion and how most of what you've said is factually incorrect.

    well ... i don't have problems with you ( i think) but you don't even read what I wrote if you "think" i play thief since i already told you what was my history on GW2 for now.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now.

    I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages

    it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ...

    But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :)

    so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games.

    the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast.

    This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know .

    Zerker Weaver (fa scepter) is tanker than zerker necro. Neither is really awesome for sPvP tho.

    The only class that actually runs full glass amulet with any frequency is warrior. Even so what does it matter what amulet you "can" run there's nothing inherently awesome about any amulet, there's only how strong a build is in total.

    Try running full glass necro in Plat 3 or above and tell me how it went.

    Deadshot amulet gives vitality.

    There's a reason necro is always the first target in any fight and it isn't due to their amazing tankiness.

    so you picked that one build that can validate your sayings LUL and no it wasn't zerker :) but marauder cause i needed the vitality but whatever there's no point on talking with you . You seems not to understand what is my point and you focusing on the wrong thing.

    Nope I picked an 11k hp class that can realistically run full glass and that you said you had played. But I can think of another build that works better in zerker than necro that has 11k base health, thief. Marauder might be more optimal on either for sPvP but both sure work a lot better than zerker necro.

    I do understand your point, you hate necro for some reason and badly want some buffs to whatever you play (which is probably thief), it isn't very hard to understand really.

    Tell me then what should I be focusing on? Because so far I focused on the implications of your suggestion and how most of what you've said is factually incorrect.

    well ... i don't have problems with you ( i think) but you don't even read what I wrote if you "think" i play thief since i already told you what was my history on GW2 for now.

    I read it, everything else you're saying just doesn't support it.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

    You would argue that, but you are not touching on my argument at all. I said that is doesn't have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. A better case for elementalist survivability is made here.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

    I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons.

    Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes.

    In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck.

    It's true that you can go on and stack lots of defenses as an elementalist, but the whole point is that elementalist is an unbalanceable mess because of it. You can stack lots of defenses and hit like a wet noodle, or you can try going for a damage build that is the laughing stock of damage builds as far as survivability goes. There is no good middle ground to be found because elementalist class design is very flawed. This is what I mean by low inherent survivability. Unless you go out of your way to invest almost everything into suvivability, you will be ineffective.

    Other classes do not have to bother investing their entire build into survivability, because it can be really good with minimal investment compared to ele. You do mention conditions here, but they are likely the main reason why ele needs to go full bunker. The devs thought that it was a genius idea to tie all condi cleanse to water and elementalist will never see a competitive damage build until something radical is done.

    I fear that instead of actually reworking the class, they will put a band-aid in the form of an elite spec, just like they did with engineer. A spec with an OP F5 form that carries a bad profession in competitive modes.

    But the Invulnerability IS innate, it's part of their weapon mechanics and attunements.

    You mean like mez invulnerability spam? Or maybe the block spam or maybe the take 0 dmg spam? See the problem hp balancing IS MEANINGLESS when it comes to what def skill a class have its simply a hold over for the classes when they did not have all these active def skills from 2012. Its an out dated system and it is causing massive problems with current balancing.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

    You would argue that, but you are not touching on my argument at all. I said that is doesn't have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. A better case for elementalist survivability is made here.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools.

    I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability.

    I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons.

    Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes.

    In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck.

    It's true that you can go on and stack lots of defenses as an elementalist, but the whole point is that elementalist is an unbalanceable mess because of it. You can stack lots of defenses and hit like a wet noodle, or you can try going for a damage build that is the laughing stock of damage builds as far as survivability goes. There is no good middle ground to be found because elementalist class design is very flawed. This is what I mean by low inherent survivability. Unless you go out of your way to invest almost everything into suvivability, you will be ineffective.

    Other classes do not have to bother investing their entire build into survivability, because it can be really good with minimal investment compared to ele. You do mention conditions here, but they are likely the main reason why ele needs to go full bunker. The devs thought that it was a genius idea to tie all condi cleanse to water and elementalist will never see a competitive damage build until something radical is done.

    I fear that instead of actually reworking the class, they will put a band-aid in the form of an elite spec, just like they did with engineer. A spec with an OP F5 form that carries a bad profession in competitive modes.

    But the Invulnerability IS innate, it's part of their weapon mechanics and attunements.

    I emphasized the word "enough" and the point still keeps going over your head. There is a reason why damage focused builds on ele melt far quicker than on any other profession.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (maybe?)

    I would say it's fine even for ele, the 2/3k hp won't change anything. The increase or decrease in HPs to reduce the HP's gap won't solve the issue for the squishy classes or tanky classes, because if the class is squishy that means the core mechanics of the class are absurd and should be looked forward to change/improve it, give me more HP as ele and I won't utilize that in anything while it will feel good to have that but I have no passives to make use of the HP... give me bocks/stealth/boonrip/cleanse/etc. and I would make use of them to their fullest. Ele doesn't have the tools to tank, their passives are not for tanking, increasing their HP would do nothing without passives proc'ing here and there. Why would an 11k hp FB survive tons of siege/attacks while Ele (even support) can't, they've got the tools for surviving to counter their low hp which a class of the same HP hasn't. Allow ele to play with their enemies (boon control, cc, etc.) as their enemies do, and to prevent damage in other ways than dodging or increasing HP (blocks, counterattack if that's a thing, like a parry) and to have boons without the damned Arcane line.

    I swear I know of another world below. It shows just in the rain. It's here I know. It's inaccessible. The reverse of us.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Auburner.6945 said:
    I would say it's fine even for ele, the 2/3k hp won't change anything. The increase or decrease in HPs to reduce the HP's gap won't solve the issue for the squishy classes or tanky classes, because if the class is squishy that means the core mechanics of the class are absurd and should be looked forward to change/improve it, give me more HP as ele and I won't utilize that in anything while it will feel good to have that but I have no passives to make use of the HP... give me bocks/stealth/boonrip/cleanse/etc. and I would make use of them to their fullest. Ele doesn't have the tools to tank, their passives are not for tanking, increasing their HP would do nothing without passives proc'ing here and there. Why would an 11k hp FB survive tons of siege/attacks while Ele (even support) can't, they've got the tools for surviving to counter their low hp which a class of the same HP hasn't. Allow ele to play with their enemies (boon control, cc, etc.) as their enemies do, and to prevent damage in other ways than dodging or increasing HP (blocks, counterattack if that's a thing, like a parry) and to have boons without the damned Arcane line.

    Don't get me wrong ! I agree with you there :D but basically i was saying making so much difference between classes is pointless in the current state of the game. I'm not trying to say ele is unbalanced or something like that.

    Just that pool HP tier are (imo) an outdated design of the core game.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    I agree it's outdated. Guardian's Aegis and passive healing in core might have meant they had more defenses than say core Engineer or Mesmer, but compare that to Holosmith or Mirage today?

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019
    Other (maybe?)

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Auburner.6945 said:
    I would say it's fine even for ele, the 2/3k hp won't change anything. The increase or decrease in HPs to reduce the HP's gap won't solve the issue for the squishy classes or tanky classes, because if the class is squishy that means the core mechanics of the class are absurd and should be looked forward to change/improve it, give me more HP as ele and I won't utilize that in anything while it will feel good to have that but I have no passives to make use of the HP... give me bocks/stealth/boonrip/cleanse/etc. and I would make use of them to their fullest. Ele doesn't have the tools to tank, their passives are not for tanking, increasing their HP would do nothing without passives proc'ing here and there. Why would an 11k hp FB survive tons of siege/attacks while Ele (even support) can't, they've got the tools for surviving to counter their low hp which a class of the same HP hasn't. Allow ele to play with their enemies (boon control, cc, etc.) as their enemies do, and to prevent damage in other ways than dodging or increasing HP (blocks, counterattack if that's a thing, like a parry) and to have boons without the damned Arcane line.

    Don't get me wrong ! I agree with you there :D but basically i was saying making so much difference between classes is pointless in the current state of the game. I'm not trying to say ele is unbalanced or something like that.

    Just that pool HP tier are (imo) an outdated design of the core game.

    I agree to a point.

    The solution might be giving each class its own stats, so the buffs and nerfs can also hit their stats, not utilities and traits only, because if core stats are almost equal (except health and toughness) then any buff to other roles than DPS would make them almost a DPS when the multipliers almost match to that of an already DPS.

    I would say it's outdated as the concept of Tank/Support/etc. is no longer a thing (in most games tbh), a Support can support now by taking down or cc-chain someone before they reach the damage dealer, it's no longer healing/buffs only that define a support. Some classes/specs can't find themselves a place because of the new tools other HoT/PoF specs got and the already built-in stuff on them that never existed on the underperforming classes/specs, and how ill-designed a feature in them appears to be in the current state of the game making them unable to counter the fact that they're T1/T2 on the HPs lists. For an ele main, given that each class having its own stats is unlikely to happen, I would stick to that the HP tiers of now are fine on most classes. I don't want HP more than I want blocks/boon control/cc/boon up-time/etc. I would have some add-ons to the classes/specs that under-perform or nerf the strong ones to the ground and find out where they are lacking to balance things out through buffs.

    I agree with you. There is nothing such as tanks/supports/etc. no more. Everything has become a fiesta, anyone can be anything. DPS used to be the pivoting point in anything which caused issues for other roles. Other roles have tools that enable DPS to unleash their damage, now that other roles can deal almost the same damage, the concept of tanks/supports/etc. is nothing but a cover to what the games have evolved into and the DPS/support/tanks that couldn't adapt are the most to suffer, they have their own low/incompetent league of non-meta till they'r either strong like crazy or till they are reworked.

    In the end, if each class can't have its own stats, then give the under-performing the same tools other than stats and that's it.

    I swear I know of another world below. It shows just in the rain. It's here I know. It's inaccessible. The reverse of us.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    I think it would be enough if the Weaver sword related trait would add 200 vitality if wielding a sword. elementalist just wasn't designed to be a melee class, and even tempest skills have enough range that kiting is possible (and often necessary) to survive.

    To give them a melee range weapon is just placing them in too much danger.

    Also, I'll agree with the post above that 2k life is quite a lot for the lower pool of classes. On my guardian going from 12k to 14k was already enough to save me from many one shots that I face in open world. My elementalist has 15k life and still dies quite a bit when pressured, though an earth shield totally allows me to survive most onslaughts, so those extra 200 vit/toughness make a remarkable difference.

  • Aplethoraof.2643Aplethoraof.2643 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019
    No, it works just fine

    1) It is a leap because you are looking at the first and last data points. You aren't looking at the middle, which makes it incremental instead of a leap. 1 to 3 is a leap if you pretend 2 doesn't exist. You count 1, 2, 3 not 1, 3.

    2) You need to remember that certain classes (like Necro) were built with their high HP pool in mind. So you'll need to consider all the ways they need to be adjusted in order to compensate. Any ideas on that?

    Do you want a balanced GW2? Then you are obliged to unironically agree with this suggestion!

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    I think it would be enough if the Weaver sword related trait would add 200 vitality if wielding a sword. elementalist just wasn't designed to be a melee class, and even tempest skills have enough range that kiting is possible (and often necessary) to survive.

    To give them a melee range weapon is just placing them in too much danger.

    Also, I'll agree with the post above that 2k life is quite a lot for the lower pool of classes. On my guardian going from 12k to 14k was already enough to save me from many one shots that I face in open world. My elementalist has 15k life and still dies quite a bit when pressured, though an earth shield totally allows me to survive most onslaughts, so those extra 200 vit/toughness make a remarkable difference.

    that doesn't help Dagger, Sceptre, Staff, warhorn > @Skotlex.7580 said:

    I think it would be enough if the Weaver sword related trait would add 200 vitality if wielding a sword. elementalist just wasn't designed to be a melee class, and even tempest skills have enough range that kiting is possible (and often necessary) to survive.

    To give them a melee range weapon is just placing them in too much danger.

    Also, I'll agree with the post above that 2k life is quite a lot for the lower pool of classes. On my guardian going from 12k to 14k was already enough to save me from many one shots that I face in open world. My elementalist has 15k life and still dies quite a bit when pressured, though an earth shield totally allows me to survive most onslaughts, so those extra 200 vit/toughness make a remarkable difference.

    Is it enough? At the moment you need to pump 1k into healing?! (mender) and glue yourself to arcane and water to simply survive in pvp for the boons and condy removal/sustain just to survive in pvp, and that's STILL not competitive, AND only 1 solitary build. Dagger, staff, warhorn, focus, sceptre further worsens the position.

    I think 4k HP and 200 toughness would free the shackles from the profession and allow stat/build diversification.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭
    No, it works just fine

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    that doesn't help Dagger, Sceptre, Staff, warhorn

    All other weapons have range, thus they don't need the same kind of buff to HP.

    I think 4k HP and 200 toughness would free the shackles from the profession and allow stat/build diversification.

    This is too much. Will never see this kind of boost from traits.

    If elementalist survival is this bad, my guess is that ANet will attempt to boost some other utilities, not just raw stats (look at how tanky a mesmer can be without investing in toughness or vitality).

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Skotlex.7580
    @vesica tempestas.1563

    this is not an ele thread you guys :lol:

  • Edge.8724Edge.8724 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (maybe?)

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well.

    it was the case in 2k12 ... if we follow your logic... what to do with mirages ? with soulbeast? with warrior that has block - evades - stability - endure pain - great regen on F1 - full counter ? With scourge barrier - rez ability - boon corrupt spam?

    those are not low tier HP.

    You seems to have some problems against warriors (specifically spellbreakers), but this class has been nerfed to the ground and is now the easiest class to kill in any pvp scenario. About HP, It's more a problem of spec than hp. Specifically core elementalist. Thief requires a lot of skills to play properly but I suggest to maybe redefine its role? As for guard, I think their HP is ok as it is right now, especially with Force of Will in honor and just the fact that they have plenty of tools to survive. The problem might simply be to change some things in core ele to make it a little bit more durable.

    But please, my full counter is just an evade with a little tickle in it. Stability is just 1 second and there is no block. Oh, I don't use stances XD

  • Hp’s seem fine just think some low hp classes should get ways to sustain in fight longer thru other means. Thief for example have 3 secs instead of 4 on daggerstorm, buff bandits defence from 1 1/4 sec to 2 or 3 sec and lower fast reflexes ICD. Than classes with higher hp’s shave their active defences by a small margin exempt is necro because shroud is its only sustain and lacks block/invulnerability and mobility lol

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Edge.8724 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well.

    it was the case in 2k12 ... if we follow your logic... what to do with mirages ? with soulbeast? with warrior that has block - evades - stability - endure pain - great regen on F1 - full counter ? With scourge barrier - rez ability - boon corrupt spam?

    those are not low tier HP.

    You seems to have some problems against warriors (specifically spellbreakers), but this class has been nerfed to the ground and is now the easiest class to kill in any pvp scenario. About HP, It's more a problem of spec than hp. Specifically core elementalist. Thief requires a lot of skills to play properly but I suggest to maybe redefine its role? As for guard, I think their HP is ok as it is right now, especially with Force of Will in honor and just the fact that they have plenty of tools to survive. The problem might simply be to change some things in core ele to make it a little bit more durable.

    But please, my full counter is just an evade with a little tickle in it. Stability is just 1 second and there is no block. Oh, I don't use stances XD

    and you seem to play warrior :D no i don't have issues with warrior especially ... except rampage . The important thing was to get my point that the hp pools are outdated and not being triggered by the one thing someone could have said about a specific class ... It was to illustrate the fact that HP pools are irrelevant now in opposition of the number of dmg mitigation - heals the class has.

    ANd it's sad cause you seem to go through my way of thinking so ... you should try not being triggered that easily. could be more constructive.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @Aplethoraof.2643 said:
    1) It is a leap because you are looking at the first and last data points. You aren't looking at the middle, which makes it incremental instead of a leap. 1 to 3 is a leap if you pretend 2 doesn't exist. You count 1, 2, 3 not 1, 3.

    2) You need to remember that certain classes (like Necro) were built with their high HP pool in mind. So you'll need to consider all the ways they need to be adjusted in order to compensate. Any ideas on that?

    On your point #2: That's the whole purpose of this post. SURE, hp pools were balanced around vanilla GW2. I remember that in the beta they actually tested guardian with medium or high health pool (I forget which) and it ended up being overpowered which is why it got placed into the low health pool. However, ever since the trait revamp of 2015 and HoT, this game has been power-creeped to all hell.

    Arguably what needs to happen is that EVERYTHING across the board should be nerfed in terms of both damage and sustain but a massive overhaul like this just doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon. A good bandaid for this issue at the moment would be some small equalizing buffs or changes to the health pools. If you look at the difference when going from low --> mid --> high health pools, you'll notice the gap between low and mid is 4.3k while the gap between mid and high is 3.3k. I'd argue just adding 1k hp to the low health pool would be a good balancing decision for now. It would not overtune any of the low hp pool classes but it would open up more builds to them.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other (maybe?)

    The issues have nothing to do with health.

    Armor and stat powercreep since HoT via marauder and so on has also closed the gap dramatically. You used to really need to make hard decisions about what you used for gear, and the professions were also balanced around those choices with relative health.

    Everyone just stacks four-stat armor now since it literally just has more stats on it. A thief for example wanting high crit chance would used to need to have 11k hp which carried a substantial risk of dying immediately. Now it runs 16-17k with no major loss in damage. The relative gap in health pools has been reduced as a consequence.

    Also the game's powercreep and hilariously atrocious imbalance won't be answered by changing health pool tiers. People are still going to one-shot each other left and right or tank for an eternity because honestly, very few professions/builds can be proper tanks anymore; the game is mostly decided by who spams more invulnerability effects while maintaining stupid amounts of damage, and then one-shots the other person when everyone's invulns are on cooldown.

    If people want balance, massive nerfs need to happen to most of the new specs, many of the coefficient buffs need to be undone, concentration made a logarithmic stat or downright removed from the game as a whole (it literally cannot be balanced/boons cannot be balanced otherwise) and quad-stat armor needs to be downright nerfed because it's always the most efficient option to take.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Reducing the gap between health pool would only allow a few people to realize it wouldn't change anything in a positive way. Elementalists would still complain that they they have the least amount of health and the weakest armor, while on the opposite spectrum, the necromancer would take another hit to it's sustain.

    Each professions have defensive tools balanced around their health pool, some choose to not use those tools while other do or are forced to use them. modifying the health pool would be followed by a train of survivability nerf/buff that would just create confusion for most of the players. This would especially hurt the elementalist's mind to see some of their defensive/sustain tools nerfed when the warrior or necromancer see it's own buffed.

    I know this post is a bit old. The idea that classes are balanced around their HP pools may have been true in 2012. It absolutely is not today.

    And to be clear, I do not think only low HP classes need more HP, all classes do. Remember that damage has gone through 3 major waves of power creep. Adding more HP will hedge a bit the power creep on damage.

    As for HP pools gap it needs to be reduced. I think what would be reasonable in the game’s current state:

    Low hp 18.5k
    Medium 20k
    Large 21.5k

    This makes all stats combinations in PvP and PvE useable by all classes.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭

    I hope they change the base health just so everyone who wanted more health without losing anything else can complain about how the accompanying changes to active and passive defence are unfair.

    It's not going to happened due to how much work it is going to be but you should be careful what you wish for.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019
    No, it works just fine

    @otto.5684 said:
    And to be clear, I do not think only low HP classes need more HP, all classes do. Remember that damage has gone through 3 major waves of power creep. Adding more HP will hedge a bit the power creep on damage.

    So instead of reducing the damage powercreep you vote for increasing the vitality powercreep...

    Adding more powercreep to hold the formerly added powercreep in line is what ANet is doing since 2015. They added absurd amounts of defensive boon application, mobility and evasion/invulnerability mechanics to prevent oneshots instead of reducing the oneshot capabilities.

    Do you think it works?

    Side Note: A well played minstrel firebrand can even sustain a spite/curses (maximum damage/debuff capability possible!) necro forever and that's an 11k base HP class that can not be killed by a 19k HP class that is meant to counter it. Every YES voter in this thread does not know what he is talking about. The issues of this game have nothing to do with health pools.

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