Reducing the gap between all HP pool tier ?

It's well known that all classes (with the same amount of stats ) doesnt have the same amount of HP. There are actually 3 tiers since the core release back to 2012.

Tier 1 : low hp pool (11k hp)

• Elementalist
• Thief
• Guardian

Tier 2 : middle pool ( 15k hp)

• Mesmer
• Ranger
• Engineer
• Revenant

Tier 3 : High pool (19k HP)

• Warrior
• Necromancer

WIth the release of new elite specs, it feels like some of these categorizations are a little outdated. For me tho... it feels like the tiers are too spread from 11k to 19k ... 8k hp feels huge especially in the power creep state the game is right know.

My opinion is to rather increase low pool to 13k and reduce the high to 17k. But necromancer would probably really suffer from the "nerf" . An easy fix would be to had some more HP (such as herald got with its rework) on a minor trait but will make the trait line mandatory tho ...

or maybe just review the tier classification.

What do you think?

There's balance issues in the game to be sure, but I don't think it's much related to base health pool. Sure, a lot has changed since it was implemented, but base HP plays such a small role in survivability compared to traits, skills, boons and armor stats.

I don't see why there should be difference in base health between an Elementalist, a Mesmer and a Necromancer.All have powerful offensive spells and all have low armor.

I 'fix' this myself by loading up on some extra vitality on my Ele, but of course does this make me slightly uncompetitive in sPvP against Mesmers and Necros who do not have to spend attribute points to vitality to obtain the same health pool.

I'm just talking about the cloth armor casters here. Tanky professions like Warrior require a big health pool for obvious reasons. This should not be changed.

@Dahkeus.8243 said:There's balance issues in the game to be sure, but I don't think it's much related to base health pool. Sure, a lot has changed since it was implemented, but base HP plays such a small role in survivability compared to traits, skills, boons and armor stats.

I mean it was balance back to core game ... kinda ... cause ele and guardian had the best amount of healing skills/capabilities. Thief was more of kill or be killed so could probably make sense (maybe?)

but now a lot of classes gain some defensive options or healing capabilities but still get that basic hp pool. THis should be brought up to date to me and i really think that 11k HP with all that dmg out there isn't really viable.

Guard is fine in sPVP since it runs radiance for crit chance and valkyrie amulet with a huge amount of HP on it . but thief and ele honestly i don't know ...

For warrior (the other extreme) it might force them to either way pick other amulets that reduce their dmg input (not talking about full counter tho) or make their survivability less effective (while not nerfing their mechanics)

Should have a changing hp pool depending on elite spec.

For instance, mirage should be in tier 1. Whearas core is fine in tier 2.

I vote yes, the health pools need some updating because they are clearly an outdated artifact form vanilla GW2 which doesn't function as a great anchor for judging our current pvp game balance. HOWEVER, by how much health pools should be changed is debatable.

I made a post about this very issue.

At the very minimum, before we reconsider reworking the health pool system entirely, there is clearly some unfairness between minimum health pool and medium health pool. The gap could be closed by simply adding 100 vitality to low health pool classes at level 80, which would give them 1000 more hp. This would standardize the gaps going from low ---> mid --> high.

@"Arcaedus.7290" said:I vote yes, the health pools need some updating because they are clearly an outdated artifact form vanilla GW2 which doesn't function as a great anchor for judging our current pvp game balance. HOWEVER, by how much health pools should be changed is debatable.

I made a post about this very issue.

At the very minimum, before we reconsider reworking the health pool system entirely, there is clearly some unfairness between minimum health pool and medium health pool. The gap could be closed by simply adding 100 vitality to low health pool classes at level 80, which would give them 1000 more hp. This would standardize the gaps going from low ---> mid --> high.

yeah basically what I thought ... the gap between both tiers are kinda high (imo) these are hidden stats so it might be easy to fix it ! or maybe it's also hidden coding lol and the current devs don't know where to find that code haha

All low HP classes would benefit from it and most medium vitality classes wouldnt be that hard affected.Warrior and necro are tanky enough and do not really need it anyway.All Medium would be good.

Just swap Elementalist and Mesmer hp pools head-to-head.Mesmer doesn't need the hp it has with all their inherent available active defenses. Clones themselves are the first layer of defense, then they have Distortion always available no matter what build they play. Then there's the Blinds and Aegises that are baked into the class.Ele could really use more hp on the other hand.Guardian and Thief are fine IMO.

Edit: Wish I could change my vote.

It's fine as is, maybe save spellbreaker. But squishies need to be squishy, since their core kits have ample tools to escape/negate damage. If you paired that up with higher base healthpools things would get outta hand.

Conversly necro that has no "0 damage defenses" and is by design a facetank class needs a big fat healthpool. Trimming that down is nefring a class that is already infamous for it's sustain issues in competitive...

I actually think the system is fine. People are just complaining because the favorite class they play is squishy and they are not smart enough to learn fights and avoid damage..... This game is all about out smarting the fight not face tanking the fight....

I think it's a good design overall -- really emphasizes class roles. The only time it's a concern is in PvP. In that case, the problem is that a class like Ele which is already super squishy and hard to play becomes harder to play.

It very out dated the only way it works if you also have variation in the amount of power classes have. Unless you want to let the low hp classes have the highest power and the high hp classes have the lowest power the hp system from class to call dose not work. It will become a worst and worst problem as they add in high risk rolls for the low hp classes and low risk rolls for high hp classes. It has a lot to do with the massive problem with the current elite spec we have now.

I did a talk on it a few months ago.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/57734/hp-def-class-variation-with-out-power-precision#latest

You simply cant have def effect different from class to class with out asking attk effects to differ from class to class or your going to have in-balance with the base classes that may have some build in fixes to make up for it as well as having massive in-balance with long run of new elite spec. The fear is having that war class with all in dmg ranged attks having a high base hp and def on a class who can do dmg at a safe ranges.

The System is outdated!

on january - march 2015 balance in this game was 8.5/10after that stupid conditions patch balance was 6/10After the first expansion balance was 4/10 and its still on a 4.5/10.

Maybe in 5 years we have a 8/10 .....just joking :-/ balance will always be bad because no one cares about balance -__-

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:It's fine as is, maybe save spellbreaker. But squishies need to be squishy, since their core kits have ample tools to escape/negate damage. If you paired that up with higher base healthpools things would get outta hand.

Conversly necro that has no "0 damage defenses" and is by design a facetank class needs a big fat healthpool. Trimming that down is nefring a class that is already infamous for it's sustain issues in competitive...

What you said is true, but have you considered that maybe necro hp would stay where it is, meanwhile we buff/change medium and minimum health pool?

As it stands now, those who sit in minimum health pool are forced to take vitality (and a significant amount of it too) in pvp and wvw. This means they are unable to take certain stat comboes, or certain amulets in pvp (like Destroyer's) whereas the max hp pool is free to do so.

The buffs required wouldn't even be that large. For starters, the gap between minimum health pool and medium health pool is larger than the gap between medium health pool and max health pool, so just giving 1k hp to minimum health pool would make things a bit more fair.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:Should have a changing hp pool depending on elite spec.

For instance, mirage should be in tier 1. Whearas core is fine in tier 2.

This is a great idea. Needs fine tuning per spec but a good general direction.

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:It's fine as is, maybe save spellbreaker. But squishies need to be squishy, since their core kits have ample tools to escape/negate damage. If you paired that up with higher base healthpools things would get outta hand.

Conversly necro that has no "0 damage defenses" and is by design a facetank class needs a big fat healthpool. Trimming that down is nefring a class that is already infamous for it's sustain issues in competitive...

I know right but elite specs doesn't have the same capabilities in term of evading frames etc ... so why make it equal within the same class with 2 elites specs (or maybe 3 some day)

That was my point on reducing it . Because core specs aren't representative anymore of that "hp pool balance" when you consider either one elite spec or another. So decreasing its impact (by decreasing the deviation between tiers) in the balancing might be a solution (or maybe not)

You need to remember that Guardian, Elementalist and Theif are VERY potent in what they do, such as firebrand support or burning, thief DPS ele DPS etc, in raids atm necromancers and warriors have, at best, 2 jobs.while Elementalists, guardians and thieves can be a few. with ele being HK, Power DPS or support tempest, Guard being support firebrand condi firebrand or power DH and thief being POwer DE power DD or condi DD. Warrior is Just banner slave, and Necro is just for cases where Epidemic is useful ( which is a pity). SO until they make every profession have equal ability to do X,Y,Z they shouldn't change any health pools and the current ones signify which does the most, with Lowest HP having 3 jobs, Medium having 2 and Highest having 1.

@Kuulpb.5412 said:You need to remember that Guardian, Elementalist and Theif are VERY potent in what they do, such as firebrand support or burning, thief DPS ele DPS etc, in raids atm necromancers and warriors have, at best, 2 jobs.while Elementalists, guardians and thieves can be a few. with ele being HK, Power DPS or support tempest, Guard being support firebrand condi firebrand or power DH and thief being POwer DE power DD or condi DD. Warrior is Just banner slave, and Necro is just for cases where Epidemic is useful ( which is a pity). SO until they make every profession have equal ability to do X,Y,Z they shouldn't change any health pools and the current ones signify which does the most, with Lowest HP having 3 jobs, Medium having 2 and Highest having 1.

I'm sorry but ele is currently nothing in this game except some niche builds and it's melting to anything (as long as it get hits)Support tempest doesn't exist since it provides only healing and nothing else (almost) but that's class design issue ... not the topic here !

And don't be too dramatic 2k HP won't change the entire world :)

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@Kuulpb.5412 said:You need to remember that Guardian, Elementalist and Theif are VERY potent in what they do, such as firebrand support or burning, thief DPS ele DPS etc, in raids atm necromancers and warriors have, at best, 2 jobs.while Elementalists, guardians and thieves can be a few. with ele being HK, Power DPS or support tempest, Guard being support firebrand condi firebrand or power DH and thief being POwer DE power DD or condi DD. Warrior is Just banner slave, and Necro is just for cases where Epidemic is useful ( which is a pity). SO until they make every profession have equal ability to do X,Y,Z they shouldn't change any health pools and the current ones signify which does the most, with Lowest HP having 3 jobs, Medium having 2 and Highest having 1.

weaver gets a trait for + vitality, and I have to say on my weaver I never die due to all the evades and invulns I get. Tempest support applies protection regen and swiftness, and auras ( including 10% damage reduction) to everyone, and as far as I know I don't run any niche builds on ele, I just run weaver with stances,

Reducing the gap between health pool would only allow a few people to realize it wouldn't change anything in a positive way. Elementalists would still complain that they they have the least amount of health and the weakest armor, while on the opposite spectrum, the necromancer would take another hit to it's sustain.

Each professions have defensive tools balanced around their health pool, some choose to not use those tools while other do or are forced to use them. modifying the health pool would be followed by a train of survivability nerf/buff that would just create confusion for most of the players. This would especially hurt the elementalist's mind to see some of their defensive/sustain tools nerfed when the warrior or necromancer see it's own buffed.

@Kuulpb.5412 said:weaver gets a trait for + vitality, and I have to say on my weaver I never die due to all the evades and invulns I get. Tempest support applies protection regen and swiftness, and auras ( including 10% damage reduction) to everyone, and as far as I know I don't run any niche builds on ele, I just run weaver with stances,

you mean the minor one that gives HP on sword? and what kind of support an aura can bring? maybe the frost aura is great for the 10% dmg reduction (for 4 sec)

Sorry to tell you ... but sword weaver is a niche build = specific to a unique role and not effective in any other situations.

but i'm not talking about elite specs here but core classification anyway... so if you could stay on the topic , i would highly appreciate it.

While it doesnt really matter for PvE that much, I think the system could use some form of adjustment for the competitive modes.

Ele is a pretty good example for this.While in vanilla the class had more or less a "backline DPS" role, the 11k HP pool initially made sense.Then with HoT came Tempest. And if you consider the nature of Overloads (they are very close-ish range) and shouts, it became more of a melee spec.Same with weaver.

I think however, that elitespec traits should take care of those adjustments rather than the baseline system....cause for core classes those tiers actually work fine.Draconic Fortitude (herald) or Master's Fortitude (Weaver) are good examples for this. Having such traits as minor traits wouldn't even necessarily affect build choices.

Then again....a 8k deviation for baseline HP Pools seems is indeed a lot....especially considering there also are different armor tiers.So personally I wouldnt really mind if low and high tier HP pools got some minor adjustments (like ~ 1k-1.5k higher or lower respectively).

So basically: Buff Guard, Thief, Ele - nerf all other professions...

@syszery.1592 said:So basically: Buff Guard, Thief, Ele - nerf all other professions...

nerf warrior - necromancer

don't touch ranger - revenant- mesmer- engineer ... try to be more accurate plz :D