how do people decide that mirage is op? (it's not op, a defense of the cyber bullied class) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

how do people decide that mirage is op? (it's not op, a defense of the cyber bullied class)

incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭
edited January 25, 2019 in PVP

seems like these days the tension has risen due to a certain popular streamer's videos and all the peons are in an uproar with their pitchforks with the hope of getting lord arena net to once and for all completely obliterate and delete the spec mirage and their reasoning? It's " overpowered" . When asked to present arguments and when they fail to present arguments or even to understand how mirage skills even work they resort to the argument
"" ** it's not fun to play against ** "" . Well guess what - i don't have fun playing against all sorts of cheesy bs. Fun is subjective, i have fun playing vs CONDI mirages. (not power, power is a sea animal)

I started off with warrior but due to mass QQ some mechanics were reworked and the class stopped being fun for me so i rerolled to elementalist which fell off cus anet really hates elementalists and they keep trying to make some tank elementalist instead just a proper mage nuker, then i rerolled to thief but i didn't like its role, then i rerolled to necro and to ranger and to engi and so on i ended up playing all classes
mirage is the last class i rerolled to as a main (except rev which is the one class ive never played and most likely never will) . I actually like mirage, finally found a class that can do hybrid damage that doesn't insta die to necros or thieves. I like the concept and i like the gameplay but for some reason lower elo people won't shut up about how op the class is when in reality it's simply not true

Mirage was the least represented class in the top rankings for the last 2 seasons on average and in general the class isn't that popular on higher elo
Mirage isn't the best duelist in the game any more due to repeated nerfs and it loses to other classes which makes it obsolete as a duelist
Mirage doesn't have the best dps in the game
Mirage isn't the hardest to kill class in the game

there are 2 types of condition mirage
type 1 is with staff which gives access to more sustain and protection and vigor and type 2 is without staff which has more forceful damage

type 1 - staff mirage - is outdated now because boonbeast exists. Staff projectiles are slow, staff doesn't have burst damage, staff doesn't have instant damage (or forceful damage as i call it cause you're not pressing anything) staff is mainly a on-point-utility/defensive weapon which is not oppressive. I guess why people cry about it is because of the auto attack/ illusion auto's bounces which apply conditions which are actually a huge source of damage for staff but it's slow . Staff's mirage cloak can fail easily because of how its programmed and it often just goes past the target

type 2 - no staff mirage - no protection, usually no chaos so no vigor either which means you're incredibly squishy and can be punished super easily. You can and will get oneshot by random power bursts. Core guard standing on one place and using his own self heal and smite condi at the right moment with retaliation on 3 illusions can result in 18k damage in less than a second on me while he heals fully and that's a real thing. The upside is that it has more instant/forceful damage and in general can be oppressive but can also be shut down. It's high risk high reward. It also has mixed dmg so its harder to counter for some cause its both power and condi but at the same time it's much worse vs actual tanks cus you're splitting your dmg and they have easier time dealing with it.

The reason why i'm making this thread is because mirage is the only class i like playing right now because i like playing condi and because necro is garbage since it has no stealth or mobility and it's too slow and those 2 are the only classes that work as condi since you destroyed/nerfed everything else cus some people don't understand the concept of condition removal.
Mesmer already got nerfed way too many times - pretty much in EVERY SINGLE PATCH since last year's march which is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. The class is far from " the best class in the game ". It's not even top 3 best class in the game

the most influential classes in the game are the ganker classes because of how ridiculous their burst dmg is right now and how uncounterable it is, if anything POWER MIRAGE is better than condi mirage because power damage has gotten way too high but the only difference is that sPvP is about point holding and power mirage's dmg is lower in close range and it also has lower sustain dps and that's why it looks like its worse but it's actually better ,it's simply a different role and people don't judge it as a different role which is their mistake

so how do you decide that mirage is op if both high elo play rate and high elo ranking statistics don't support this claim

it's not that mirage is overpowered, it's that mirage is a condi build that actually works and if other condi builds werent so severely nerfed for no reason they would be the same but anet keeps nerfing everything due to mass outcry because people can't put condi removal instead of quickness utilities and somehow that's the game's fault

the class stopped being OP after the first 2 nerfs in 2018 which is now more than half a year ago.

Everything a mirage does has counter - conditions have counter, its slow attacks have counter, illusions have counter mirage lacks a lot of things like unblockable attacks or stability boon or protection in almost all builds and none in utility skills. You know what has no counter? A class that can teleport with a 10k+ casted damage that needs no line of sight and can go up/down through elevations, through walls, with an unblockable attack that can't be reacted to because it's instant
basically revenant or for the most part core guard and thief

and that's why there are on average more of those 3 classes in top of the ladder than any other classes, because they are easy to execute with and hard to counter due to no cast time no line of sight teleports tied to a big burst damage nuke

btw looking at low elo people's opinions on how to balance a game when they clearly can't play the game is like going to the local village to interview farmers on how a surgery should be done because you don't want to listen to actually trained people for how a surgery should be done and that's where they all resort to the argument that " fighting mirage is not fun"
well fighting core guard is not fun either, fighting thief is not fun either, fightin revenant is not fun either, fighting bunkers is not fun either, fighting full zerker classes is not fun either

how bout that? fun is subjective, i have fun when i fight condi mirages even if you don't. I'll agree that the class has toxic mechanics but compared to the rest of the game it's nothing out of place. The game has a lot of issues and a lot of toxic mechanics and if you're going to talk about them at least talk about all of them and not just the ones you don't like. Gw2 pvp could be improved a lot and that does include changing mirage but at the same time it includes changing a bunch of other classes and mechanics which are just as big and even bigger issues than mirage is

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Comments

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    So the question is if Mirage is oppresive for 90% of the skill bracket but not for the top 10%, does it need to be balanced or does everyone need to l2p?

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2019

    @Mathias.9657 said:
    Nukes are the least used bomb, they are obviously harmless dude.

    Actually there are a variety of different types of military explosives that have seen less use than nuclear weapons both in terms of testing and use in armed conflicts. Reported for posting disinformation. It's absolutely disgusting you'd mislead people like that..

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nekromalistik.7045 said:
    I will only say one thing: evade while you are dazed.

    Huh?

    Every class can evade while dazed.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    he meant stunned, launched, pushed, pulled, floated, or on a bicycle

    Thank you! i need more practice to talk english xD

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Nekromalistik.7045 said:
    I will only say one thing: evade while you are dazed.

    Huh?

    Every class can evade while dazed.

    Apart from mirage using elusive mind which eats 6s exhaustion if trying to dodge while dazed (god I really hope they finally redesign this trait next patch...). :(

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Nekromalistik.7045 said:
    I will only say one thing: evade while you are dazed.

    Huh?

    Every class can evade while dazed.

    Apart from mirage using elusive mind which eats 6s exhaustion if trying to dodge while dazed (god I really hope they finally redesign this trait next patch...). :(

    Just don't use the trait, that's what everybody does.

    No point when you can still dodge at any time without it. Which is why most people would agree that Mirage Cloak on evade was a mistake and should only be earned via mirrors. The only profession that can actually evade with endurance out of a soft CC is Thief and that's still more balanced than Mirage Cloak altogether, because it can be abused if someones dodges too much while soft CC'd.

    There's no such thing with Mirage, they can do what they want and never be punished, only those who can't disengage actually die.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Nekromalistik.7045 said:
    I will only say one thing: evade while you are dazed.

    Huh?

    Every class can evade while dazed.

    Apart from mirage using elusive mind which eats 6s exhaustion if trying to dodge while dazed (god I really hope they finally redesign this trait next patch...). :(

    Just don't use the trait, that's what everybody does.

    No point when you can still dodge at any time without it. Which is why most people would agree that Mirage Cloak on evade was a mistake and should only be earned via mirrors. The only profession that can actually evade with endurance out of a soft CC is Thief and that's still more balanced than Mirage Cloak altogether, because it can be abused if someones dodges too much while soft CC'd.

    There's no such thing with Mirage, they can do what they want and never be punished, only those who can't disengage actually die.

    Oh I know it's a bit masochistic to keep running it - but the condi cleanse on EM has enabled me to win outnumbered fights in wvw that I would have otherwise lost - most recently a 1v2 vs opponent condi mirage and condi daredevil where I just laughed off all conditions and proceeded to kill the mirage. And surviving a prior 1v3 vs two condi mirages and condi thief (which became a 2v3 and we killed them).

    Sure on the flipside in outnumbered vs builds and enemies with a lot of cc then it's tough but I cope with it for now. I do switch to IH in certain situations, eg 1v1 with a power build or maybe if deciding to switch brain off and run with a larger group.

    The fact it allows me to have a strong advantage against opponent condi mirages is the only reason I run it. Highlander syndrome. :p

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2019

    Balance of mirage has been thrown both sides for months now, I doubt there will ever be a consensus unless Anet releases data to us, which, we well know it wont ever happen since it would probably expose many things, lack of transparency is a policy well practiced by Anet.

    With that being said, one element always remain true: many people find fighting mirages frustrating. Whether thats a matter or balance or not, there has to be a certain level of enjoyment out of fighting agaisnt other opponents. Nobody likes to die, nobody likes to lose, that will never be fun no matter what, however, how you lose/die does matter a lot. Frustrating mechanics, even if number-wise balanced, tend to create another mechanic that HAS to be taken into account.

    In physics there is a concept of taking things to extreme to understand their effects; want to find the effect of gravity/friction/other forces? remove it from the equation and see what happens, and then recalculate it with it being on the extreme. Now in GW2 i will give you a perfect example:

    Imagine Anet introduces a class that has 1 button, and 1 button only. You can only press this button once and only at the beginning of the match. It gives you a 50% chance of losing, or a 50%of winning. Thats a perfect balanced champion no matter rating, player skill, or any other variable; over a large enough sample it will yield a perfect 50:50 chance. Can you imagine the level of frustration/happiness that would arise from that? It is "balanced", yet, do you think it is "healthy" for the game?

    Bottom line; whether mirage is "balanced" or not, do you think its gameplay is "healthy" for the game on the long run?

  • Patrick.2987Patrick.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    'mirage needs its stamina to do damage because its weapons dont do as much damage'

    sounds like condi chrono has no damage at all yet was meta before pof. pretty sure it can deal damage even when not dodging.

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭

    but that's why condi chrono is garbage and not a viable build, because it doesn't have good damage
    (and yes i played it before but the condi removal people have today is too much and you rely on the illusions too much and they're too unreliable cus illusions and AI)
    and also chrono has chronophantasma at least

    in the past condi removals were worse and i even played condi engi cus it actually worked

    chrono isn't fun cus you rely on the illusions way more and they're slow and clunky and fail a lot, unless you're standing on a point. All the classes got better condi removal after pof came out but not better condi application (only the new specs have good by themselves).

    It's not that mirage weapons don't do damage but they don't do enough damage without Mirage Ambush and their auto attacks are much slower and worse than power builds

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @incisorr.9502 said:

    take core guard for example, it's auto attacks can do 3k dmg (and even more) combined with random dmg procs (smite condi, retaliation, virtue) while mirage auto attacks are much slower and do 3 times less dmg than that. Core guard has stability, has protection has 2 or 3 stun breaks.

    First of, try using proper punctuation so that reading your posts doesn't make ones head explode. Secondly, Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

    Mirage autos are not slower than guardians (if you're talking about hammer). It's the only attack chain in the game with 1+1+1.25s cast times. Guardian (along with Necro) are the only classes in the game without access to evade frames on weapon or utility skills (along with no access to reliable vigor).

    Guardians do indeed run triple stunbreaks, 2 utility skills and one grandmaster trait. We also run three offensive traitlines to achieve that kind of damage. (While being the most boon-dependant spec in the game due to how retaliation functions with the radiance line).

    Guardians also has a grand total of zero "random procs" after the glacial hammer rework. Calling smite condition a random proc just proves your inability and inexperience of discussing balance subjectively. It's an instant cast, just like shatters are.

    Also, balance isn't only about how strong something is. The fun-factor has to be taken into account. People hated "random" procs of damage, so Anet nerfed them all into the ground. Even the ones that never saw any use, such as Shattered Aegis in the Zeal line. Were reapers with spinal shivers over-perform? Did hammer guardians? Depends on your rating I guess, bit neither has ever seen a win in any mAT/UGO while classes like Firebrand has been in every single team.
    People don't just dislike fighting against mirage, there's also a general distaste against one-shot builds like DE, core guard and sic'em soulbeasts. If these classes gets hit, why shouldn't the class with more high tier wins get nerfed along with them?
    If Mirages are indeed as bad as you're describing, why do the vast majority of the mAT teams run one?

    illusions hitting retaliation, mirage ambush,flying axes from trait hitting retaliation = all those are random procs of dmg on the mesmer's body
    smite condi is mostly used defensively so it's also a "random proc" in a sense because its instant cast and you can hardly do anything about it except random dodge it which is the counter to everything in this game, even revenants. RANDOM DODGE

    in the vast majority of my fights against core guardians i lose 75% of my hp to retaliation/smite condi so they aren't even hitting me. THEY CAN BE STUNNED AND USE SMITE CONDI AND A HEAL AFTERWARDS AND THEY'LL BE 100% HP WHILE I'LL BE ON 20%. That's how extreme it is. Scepter mirage ambush is 5 hits which is 1k dmg from retaliation and illusions hit as well, then there's axes which are also multi hits and you get a flying axe from the trait all these do more dmg on the mesmer than they do on the guardian for the most part. It's not that core guards are unbeatable or anything but the matchup is unfavorable and nowhere near easy for mesmer unless you're running staff which instead makes different matchups more unfavorable

    as for the auto attack, i was talking about the sword auto attack and guard almost always has 20+ stacks of might vs mesmer cause of condition conversion to boons and cause of retaliation with trait. My auto attack would do 500 dmg, a bit more with crit (but still under 1k) while a guard would do 3k while also hitting faster. It's not about dps comparison or anything, just to point out that mirage has different weaknesses which people overlook when they talk about mirage's pros

    and the "1400+ playrate". If they can check these stats then they can check higher elo playrate and the stats for the last several seasons and if they do that then mirage should be safe, lol.
    Any elo under 1600 is low and is bad and in fact i assume that there are the most mirages in 1.3-1.6k elo because the "average players "are the ones that think mirage is the most op
    in the last 2 seasons (before portal nerf) mirage was the 2nd least played class in higher elo (after ele) and tied with ele for the least represented on the top spots. I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played and top 50 had less than 1/10 mirages for the majority of the time which is under average play rate cause there are 9 classes in the game

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

    Care to post your source? Cant find it on the dev tracker, and if it was said in stream, a link would be nice. Also, I highly doubt thats the case, and if it was, it probably is old info, but then again, even though I ended in plat 2 last season, placements put me in gold 2 and I'm slowly going up atm, but I can tell you, that from last season and this one, 2-3 is the norm.

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    (...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

    Source: Dude, trust me.

    Ye, it's a really tough choice.
    On one hand, you have the statistical data from an Anet employee.
    On the other, one dude who "just knows".
    .....

    I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they have to deliver, otherwise they just start losing credibility..... and this forum is a small town, most people at this point know each other and call each other by name, so its not good to taint your reputation.

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    (...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

    Source: Dude, trust me.

    Seriously, play core guard. Or rev, when you think it's on spot 1 top OP classes. Play those builds a little and see where your rating goes. Should be a lot higher, right?

    thousands of hours on 1 class vs no hours on another.. i wonder why

    also both of those classes are gankers and gankers are better in duo than solo because you need someone to work with, i don't have who to duo with and that's a big reason why im playing what im playing

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @incisorr.9502 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    (...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

    Source: Dude, trust me.

    Seriously, play core guard. Or rev, when you think it's on spot 1 top OP classes. Play those builds a little and see where your rating goes. Should be a lot higher, right?

    thousands of hours on 1 class vs no hours on another.. i wonder why

    (...)

    Maybe that is why you complain about them. Play them. Learn their strengths, learn their weaknesses.

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2019

    monthly automated tournament is happening

    top 8 teams, 40~ players

    2 mirages
    xd

    literally the least played class (minus elementalist as a whole)

    there were more chronos than mirages

    goes to show how " broken " the class is.

    Stats don't show it, facts dont show it
    opinions of people that can actually play the game don't show it either

    when we run out of stuff to say about mirage lets say its " not fun to play against" (subjective, i dont have fun playing against other classes)

    can't wait for mirage to get undeservedly nerfed again to a point where its completely destroyed only due to peer pressure from low elo people that are too arrogant to learn other classes or put condi removal in their builds

    edit: monthly tournament winner of the past mirage main rerolled to soulbeast and with 1 week experience won the monthly tournament in a team with zero mirages in it because of how mirage is not the oppressor everyone tries to make it out to be

    if its not good in a competitive 5v5 sPvP environment then kitten are people even crying about? it's not fun playing against? it's not fun losing pvp, wow whats new BabyRage

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @incisorr.9502

    Mirage has no stability? You mean aside from the go to trait Bountiful Disillusionment for the condi build for "on demand" stability? Yeah sure, no Stability. Please note that I don't see this as a problem so before you whip it out and start waving it around like a rabid animal please take your hands off the zipper.

    How can someone who plays the class say something so egregiously incorrect?

    You might "lack stability" but you have numerous other defenses that are typically chained together that help avoid CCs which is why the Mirage having the ability to Mirage Cloak while CC'd is such a problem. They don't need the layered stability like other classes because their active defenses are so numerous that a passive one like a boon like Stability is less important. However what makes Mirage such a chore to fight is that they don't get punished as much between these defenses because of that mechanic. Mirage Cloak can stay, Mirages other defenses can stay, but what needs to go is their ability to benefit from Mirage Cloak while CC'd.

  • @Fortus.6175 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

    Care to post your source? Cant find it on the dev tracker, and if it was said in stream, a link would be nice. Also, I highly doubt thats the case, and if it was, it probably is old info, but then again, even though I ended in plat 2 last season, placements put me in gold 2 and I'm slowly going up atm, but I can tell you, that from last season and this one, 2-3 is the norm.

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    (...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

    Source: Dude, trust me.

    Ye, it's a really tough choice.
    On one hand, you have the statistical data from an Anet employee.
    On the other, one dude who "just knows".
    .....


    I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they have to deliver, otherwise they just start losing credibility..... and this forum is a small town, most people at this point know each other and call each other by name, so its not good to taint your reputation.

    Trichons community PvP discord, BenP is in it. I can post a screenshot I guess if you really want it.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    Mirages play-rate 1400+ rating is 14%. This means that there's almost one and a half Mirages in each and every game. (Data comes from BenP)

    Care to post your source? Cant find it on the dev tracker, and if it was said in stream, a link would be nice. Also, I highly doubt thats the case, and if it was, it probably is old info, but then again, even though I ended in plat 2 last season, placements put me in gold 2 and I'm slowly going up atm, but I can tell you, that from last season and this one, 2-3 is the norm.

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    (...) I know cause i knew the names of every played in top 50-100 and their main classes and what they played (...)

    Source: Dude, trust me.

    Ye, it's a really tough choice.
    On one hand, you have the statistical data from an Anet employee.
    On the other, one dude who "just knows".
    .....


    I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they have to deliver, otherwise they just start losing credibility..... and this forum is a small town, most people at this point know each other and call each other by name, so its not good to taint your reputation.

    Trichons community PvP discord, BenP is in it. I can post a screenshot I guess if you really want it.

    Yes I do please, thanks.

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