Dragonball needs dishonor — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Dragonball needs dishonor

Dragonball (and most of the other festival PvP games) needs dishonor like GW1 had. Today, 20 points. At 20 points down, someone left. 40-20. Then, they showed back up again. Meanwhile, our team lost a few more kills, so he left again.

This is ridiculous, but what's even worse is the solution. When someone leaves like that, it leaves his team short a player. If nobody else joins, quickly enough, then more will leave. THEN, the other team -- yeah, the better team -- has to give up a player to the weak team.

It's just not fair.

If someone leaves, FOR ANY REASON, they should be preventing from playing for at least 15 minutes. And, if they do it again, make it a day. Or more.

Comments

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's one solution. There are a lot of different things they could do, but this comes up every year and so far they've been content to leave it alone. I'd like to see the situation improved but it's not a huge deal. I'd say it affects me in maybe 2% of matches? And the games are pretty short . . .

  • Unlikely to be changed, the technology just isn't there.

  • There is nothing worse than playing 80% of a match, contributing the top 1 or 2 kill counts, coveted win finally in sight after a losing streak, and then getting forcibly moved to the losing team, because too many of them bailed mid match. Pardon, there is something worse: having the same thing happen just two games later.

    Yes, I was quite literally robbed of two wins within the course of about five matches, forcing me to ultimately play about eight just to win three for the Dragon Ball Boss daily achievement. It also happened once the other day. I don't know if the selection is random, but so far every time I've seen the "Red/Blue team is too big" popup, I've been the unlucky one moved to the losing team. There really needs to be a deterrent in place to reduce the incidence of this happening in the first place, and when it does, the player who joined the team last should be the one moved.

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    Unlikely to be changed, the technology just isn't there.

    It isn't complicated, and in fact does exist in sPvP. There's actually a "Dishonor" status that prevents one from queuing for a match for a certain time.

  • @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    Unlikely to be changed, the technology just isn't there.

    It isn't complicated, and in fact does exist in sPvP. There's actually a "Dishonor" status that prevents one from queuing for a match for a certain time.

    It's true that sPvP has a Dishonor system. However, that system only works for ranked/unranked matches, where you queue for a single match each. The sPvP hotjoin servers - as well as Dragonball and all other pvp-like activitites - don't implement this system, since they are continually running games, where people are free to join and leave.
    This also means that in oder to stop playing you have to leave the game - there is no way around that. Therefore just slapping the Dishonor system on top of it won't work - you'd get Dishonor just for taking a break between games.

    While I agree that the current state is not really satifsfactory, with the current technologies ArenaNet has, the only way to implement Dishonor in Dragonball would be the use of a single match queue (and even that would probably not work, since the matchmaker needs an MMR rating to construct teams). However, I also don't believe it's worth the Dev-time, that would be required to change the hotjoin system in a way that still leaves it as 'hotjoin' but also implements a usable Dishonor mechanic.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Luna New Year is the festival of second accounts.

    You would not believe how many people join Dragonball with 2 accounts for easy wins.

    2 acc on your team?
    Leave with it.
    2 acc on the opponent team?
    You win.

    People are doing it for years now.

  • @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Luna New Year is the festival of second accounts.

    You would not believe how many people join Dragonball with 2 accounts for easy wins.

    2 acc on your team?
    Leave with it.
    2 acc on the opponent team?
    You win.

    People are doing it for years now.

    That is scummy and makes me sad. :'(

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    That's one solution. There are a lot of different things they could do, but this comes up every year and so far they've been content to leave it alone. I'd like to see the situation improved but it's not a huge deal. I'd say it affects me in maybe 2% of matches? And the games are pretty short . . .

    Nearly 100% of matches. I've never seen an exception unless the score was tied all the way to the end. If you're winning, it won't happen to YOUR team unless the other team gets too low on the player count. That doesn't happen as often, but illustrates why it is a HUGE problem: you get taken out of a match you were winning to be put on the losing team, usually with no hope of catching up.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 28, 2019

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    Unlikely to be changed, the technology just isn't there.

    So, they had the technology a decade ago, but not today? I don't think so.

    But, if that were true, they would post here and say so. They're never silent if they have a technical limitation. It's only when they choose to do or not to do an action.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Strongarming people to stay in an unwinnable match isn't going to help anything.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    That's one solution. There are a lot of different things they could do, but this comes up every year and so far they've been content to leave it alone. I'd like to see the situation improved but it's not a huge deal. I'd say it affects me in maybe 2% of matches? And the games are pretty short . . .

    Nearly 100% of matches. I've never seen an exception unless the score was tied all the way to the end. If you're winning, it won't happen to YOUR team unless the other team gets too low on the player count. That doesn't happen as often, but illustrates why it is a HUGE problem: you get taken out of a match you were winning to be put on the losing team, usually with no hope of catching up.

    If I was affected in 100% of matches I'd never win. The only negative outcome we are trying to avoid here is players abandoning a losing team, forcing autobalance to pull a player from the winning team over and robbing them of their win credit. The only player affected by that is the player who is pulled over to the losing team. I didn't just guess at 2%, I took the number of times it has happened to me this year -- they tend to be memorable, unfortunately -- used the number of tokens I've won to determine the number of wins I've had then assumed I've lost about as many games as I've won and did the math . . .

    I'm not saying this isn't aggravating when it happens, but it certainly isn't happening every game . . .

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    Strongarming people to stay in an unwinnable match isn't going to help anything.

    This is equally untrue. Players abandoning matches and forcing autobalance harms other players. If creating consequences for that behavior reduces its frequency, it helps solve that problem. Whether the problem is serious enough to justify putting effort into solving it and what the best solutions might be are debatable points, but pretending the problem doesn't exist isn't helpful . . .

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    You're only counting ones where you are losing. I'm counting both sides. Just watch the icons run around the map when you're winning (by a decent margin), and invariably a couple of the opponents leave. And frequently rejoin and leave again.

    That causes three problems. First, any player entering an in-progress game will automatically be placed on a losing team, if the game is more than a minute old. Bad.

    Second, if more than one player leaves within a short time interval, then the winning team will have someone kicked to the losing team. This is a lot less common, but also a lot more aggravating. I get booted to the losing team, when the real problem is that losers refuse to have any honor. Disgusting.

    Third, many players watch who they played with in previous games, and leave/re-enter if they don't like the makeup of the team they're assigned to at the beginning of a game. This is akin to grade-school picking of teams for sandlot baseball. Sickening.

    I do like the second half of your post, though.

  • @Shailyn Slay.7234 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @felincyriac.5981 said:
    Unlikely to be changed, the technology just isn't there.

    It isn't complicated, and in fact does exist in sPvP. There's actually a "Dishonor" status that prevents one from queuing for a match for a certain time.

    It's true that sPvP has a Dishonor system. However, that system only works for ranked/unranked matches, where you queue for a single match each. The sPvP hotjoin servers - as well as Dragonball and all other pvp-like activitites - don't implement this system, since they are continually running games, where people are free to join and leave.
    This also means that in oder to stop playing you have to leave the game - there is no way around that. Therefore just slapping the Dishonor system on top of it won't work - you'd get Dishonor just for taking a break between games.

    Maybe a soft Dishonor system could be implemented. It wouldn't outright prevent rejoining matches but it would be a status that others could see and would apply some effects like making the character a funny neon color or making them a chicken model (using the transformation mechanic). Could go a step further and make them either unable to attack (similar to some transformations) or have a condition like Slowed. This would last for five minutes. It would only be applied when leaving after a match has started, not during the get ready countdown between matches, which is the proper time to leave. A warning would display when attempting to leave mid-match. This would avoid the limitations of the hotjoin servers but greatly discourage abandoning matches and the forced rebalancing that affects other players.

  • Warkind.6745Warkind.6745 Member ✭✭✭

    They could start by implementing a system where people aren't plopped into a 400-20 point match.

    All is vain.

  • @Warkind.6745 said:
    They could start by implementing a system where people aren't plopped into a 400-20 point match.

    That's kind of unavoidable unless it's changed to queuing for each match like in sPvP. Still, a 400-20 point match won't last much longer and being plopped into one isn't robbing you of any real time and effort (and if you happen to be plopped onto the winning team you get a free win).

    Putting newly joined players on the undermanned team is still worlds better than rebalancing by yanking someone from the leading team in the middle of a match after investing time and effort towards the lead. That's being robbed of an earned win.

  • Mewcifer.5198Mewcifer.5198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is an issue with the snowball mayhem from wintersday as well (where I know all too well the pain of being booted to the losing team at the last minute). People only want their wins and, the moment things aren't going in their favour, they bail. It drags down the whole experience for others. I generally don't bother with this event because I dislike the feel of playing it, but I would still be happy if anet gave some kind of punishment to leaving a match early.

    My list of suggestions for GW2
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  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    You're only counting ones where you are losing.

    Bc those are the only ones where I'm affected. The game isn't ruined when a player is flipped from the winning to the losing side, it is only ruined for that one player. Everyone else's outcomes remain the same. Which again is not to say that player's experience being ruined is okay, it just goes to the severity of the issue. As it stands now it's fairly low on my stuff to care about list. I'd like for anet to address it but I'd rather they fix a lot of other things first, like the one where matches with incomplete teams never fill . . .

  • LONGA.1652LONGA.1652 Member ✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    xyzabcdefg

  • DBA daily just need to change to score based so its only your action affected the daily not other people. No need to punish baddies switcheroo , or I just want my daily participation crowd.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    You're only counting ones where you are losing.

    Bc those are the only ones where I'm affected. The game isn't ruined when a player is flipped from the winning to the losing side, it is only ruined for that one player. Everyone else's outcomes remain the same. Which again is not to say that player's experience being ruined is okay, it just goes to the severity of the issue. As it stands now it's fairly low on my stuff to care about list. I'd like for anet to address it but I'd rather they fix a lot of other things first, like the one where matches with incomplete teams never fill . . .

    Well, I care about everybody, so it matters to me.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    You're only counting ones where you are losing.

    Bc those are the only ones where I'm affected. The game isn't ruined when a player is flipped from the winning to the losing side, it is only ruined for that one player. Everyone else's outcomes remain the same. Which again is not to say that player's experience being ruined is okay, it just goes to the severity of the issue. As it stands now it's fairly low on my stuff to care about list. I'd like for anet to address it but I'd rather they fix a lot of other things first, like the one where matches with incomplete teams never fill . . .

    Well, I care about everybody, so it matters to me.

    You're missing the point, which is that the only time this is a problem is when a player is flipped from a winning team to a losing team and even on those very rare occasions only the individual player getting flipped is affected. This is a legitimate problem, but a very small one. If you actually cared about everybody you would accept that larger issues affecting many more ppl exist and are more deserving of anet's attention . . .

  • @LONGA.1652 said:
    DBA daily just need to change to score based so its only your action affected the daily not other people. No need to punish baddies switcheroo , or I just want my daily participation crowd.

    I thought this was a really good idea at first. But I can imagine why Anet bases the Dragon Ball Boss and Dragon Ball Champion achievements on wins. If they were only based on personal score, people could just take turns killing each other or even use second accounts as kill farms.

  • mtpelion.4562mtpelion.4562 Member ✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @LONGA.1652 said:
    DBA daily just need to change to score based so its only your action affected the daily not other people. No need to punish baddies switcheroo , or I just want my daily participation crowd.

    I thought this was a really good idea at first. But I can imagine why Anet bases the Dragon Ball Boss and Dragon Ball Champion achievements on wins. If they were only based on personal score, people could just take turns killing each other or even use second accounts as kill farms.

    That seems substantially less awful than the status quo.

    I haven't even participated in a single game of Dragon Ball in the last 2 years and will absolutely not enter another match until they fix the core brokenness of the game. I have no intention of having my time wasted due to defective design that is allowed to fester. If they switched it to score based, then the many OTHER defects could at least be overlooked because progress towards rewards would be possible in spite of the flaws.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mewcifer.5198 said:
    This is an issue with the snowball mayhem from wintersday as well (where I know all too well the pain of being booted to the losing team at the last minute). People only want their wins and, the moment things aren't going in their favour, they bail. It drags down the whole experience for others. I generally don't bother with this event because I dislike the feel of playing it, but I would still be happy if anet gave some kind of punishment to leaving a match early.

    I agree 100%, but take a second to reflect on what this means... If people joined the activity because it was fun, engaging, and something they wanted to do, they would stay to the bitter end. Because you only get the daily/achievement completed by winning, and this topic is addressing that chronic abandoning of players mid-event, what do you think that says about the activity itself?

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Mewcifer.5198 said:
    This is an issue with the snowball mayhem from wintersday as well (where I know all too well the pain of being booted to the losing team at the last minute). People only want their wins and, the moment things aren't going in their favour, they bail. It drags down the whole experience for others. I generally don't bother with this event because I dislike the feel of playing it, but I would still be happy if anet gave some kind of punishment to leaving a match early.

    I agree 100%, but take a second to reflect on what this means... If people joined the activity because it was fun, engaging, and something they wanted to do, they would stay to the bitter end. Because you only get the daily/achievement completed by winning, and this topic is addressing that chronic abandoning of players mid-event, what do you think that says about the activity itself?

    About as much as it does about the sportsmanship of those who bail just because they're losing? Because no matter how fun the activity, with or without rewards, people don't play to lose. Take any competitive activity from sPvP in this game to pro sports, and, regardless how fun and engaging, if there were zero consequences to abandoning, such as putting a loss/forfeiture on one's record or even simply tarnishing one's reputation, it's safe to say we would see quitters regularly.

    Right now, because there are absolutely no consequences to abandoning Dragon Ball (and the similar festival activities) mid match, that is what we see.

  • Warkind.6745Warkind.6745 Member ✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Warkind.6745 said:
    They could start by implementing a system where people aren't plopped into a 400-20 point match.

    That's kind of unavoidable unless it's changed to queuing for each match like in sPvP. Still, a 400-20 point match won't last much longer and being plopped into one isn't robbing you of any real time and effort (and if you happen to be plopped onto the winning team you get a free win).

    Putting newly joined players on the undermanned team is still worlds better than rebalancing by yanking someone from the leading team in the middle of a match after investing time and effort towards the lead. That's being robbed of an earned win.

    Fixing one problem and not the other only forces people to stay in unbalanced matches. If you want the benefits of a balanced system with quitting penalities, then you have to take the consequences with them. Unfortunately that means queuing up.

    Although I think treating DB like some actual balanced game mode worthy of disqualification and queues is ridiculous. Making it more than something to pass 30 minutes goes against the casual spirit of the thing.

    All is vain.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mewcifer.5198 said:
    This is an issue with the snowball mayhem from wintersday as well (where I know all too well the pain of being booted to the losing team at the last minute). People only want their wins and, the moment things aren't going in their favour, they bail. It drags down the whole experience for others. I generally don't bother with this event because I dislike the feel of playing it, but I would still be happy if anet gave some kind of punishment to leaving a match early.

    Snowball Mayhem can be fixed by making the daily "play a match" rather than "win a match", like how the halloween ones are.

    Also making volunteering actually credit you with a win, like it's supposed to. It's never worked in activities, for some reason.

  • Magek.4718Magek.4718 Member ✭✭✭

    Oh yeah, the system is super broken and garbage. I have a few horror stories from this year that I actually couldn't believe.

    Like this one time, my team started losing so everyone on my team leaves until I'm the only one left. But that's not the horrible part. The horrible part was when I saw one of the opposing team yelling at one of their teammates in map chat to switch teams because and I quote, "You're the weakest link, you don't deserve the win. Switch teams before someone worthwhile like me takes the fall for you". So that's when I realized the system encourages toxic behavior as I watched a team basically turn on each other.

    Had one match where I was the weakest link and one guy on my team put a target over my head when the volunteer button popped up. When I didn't volunteer, he called me a kitten and left the game.

    Had one where I was on the winning team, didn't volunteer and the other team somehow got a spike of players and next thing I knew the rest of my team bailed until I was the only one left and I actually ended up losing BECAUSE I didn't volunteer.

    And lastly, probably the most disgusting one yet: I was on a losing team that had more members than the other team. Towards the end of the game, I opened up the screen that shows both teams and their score and I noticed because my team had more members, it gave me the option to switch. I thought surely they wouldn't let me do that but sure enough, I clicked the button and I ended up on the other team which was exactly one kill away from winning the match, The team won and I ended up getting credit for the win despite literally switching teams at the last minute. I felt like such a villain. All I had to do to win was switch teams.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dragonball needs an entire overhaul, but I’ve already accepted that anet denies any ownership of the minigame, or even awereness the minigame exists

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • I said it earlier and I'll say it again. All that's needed for these festival mini games is a deterrent to discourage leaving before a match is over. Timeout from requeuing (like Dishonor in sPvP) apparently isn't compatible with the instant matchmaking, so just slap abandoners with a five minute effect with a thematic name (like "Naughty List" for Snowball Mayhem) that's a mild condition like Slowed.

    Or a non-punitive solution: a repeatable participation achievement that awards a modest amount of the festival container (e.g. 3 lucky envelopes, Wintersday gifts, trick or treat bags, etc.) for every three matches played (to completion).

    Just need an incentive to stick it through matches and/or a disincentive to abandon them. Problem solved.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @Mewcifer.5198 said:
    This is an issue with the snowball mayhem from wintersday as well (where I know all too well the pain of being booted to the losing team at the last minute). People only want their wins and, the moment things aren't going in their favour, they bail. It drags down the whole experience for others. I generally don't bother with this event because I dislike the feel of playing it, but I would still be happy if anet gave some kind of punishment to leaving a match early.

    Snowball Mayhem can be fixed by making the daily "play a match" rather than "win a match", like how the halloween ones are.

    Also making volunteering actually credit you with a win, like it's supposed to. It's never worked in activities, for some reason.

    The daily IS play two matches. There's another daily for winning three matches.

    Perhaps a hybrid: if you leave early, you lose credit for one of your previously attained victories. THAT would get people to stay.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just based it on matches played + matches won, so a win effectively counts double.

  • How do you differentiate between players who left a match on purpose and players disconnected by server failure or other complication?

    Is a punishment system (and the resources devoted to its implementation) worth it when a massive backlash could brew on the basis of 'I got disconnected and then punished for it during what was supposed to be a fun festival game'?

    If anything, the festival dailies should be adjusted, as that's more feasible than any kind of changes being made to dinosaur content.

  • Mewcifer.5198Mewcifer.5198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    How do you differentiate between players who left a match on purpose and players disconnected by server failure or other complication?

    Is a punishment system (and the resources devoted to its implementation) worth it when a massive backlash could brew on the basis of 'I got disconnected and then punished for it during what was supposed to be a fun festival game'?

    If anything, the festival dailies should be adjusted, as that's more feasible than any kind of changes being made to dinosaur content.

    There is not really a way to differentiate. But nearly every game that punishes people leaving games have this issue and most people just accept it.

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    Max Masteries | 16k AP

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    How do you differentiate between players who left a match on purpose and players disconnected by server failure or other complication?

    Is a punishment system (and the resources devoted to its implementation) worth it when a massive backlash could brew on the basis of 'I got disconnected and then punished for it during what was supposed to be a fun festival game'?

    If anything, the festival dailies should be adjusted, as that's more feasible than any kind of changes being made to dinosaur content.

    "Massive backlash"? No. I have NEVER been disconnected during a match. And, I don't know anybody else who has, although the pool of players is small.

    No, any backlash will pretty much only come from cheaters who don't want their favored way of winning made obsolete. No honorable player will object.

  • So because you, personally, have never been disconnected while playing a certain type of content, this means anyone who has been is either a.) dishonorable b.) a cheater or c.) A 'small' pool of players despite the multitude of 'I can't connect' 'constantly d/cing' threads available on this forum?

    You are suggesting that the whole class be punished because of a group of people who decide to abuse the system and furthermore suggest that a punishment of up to 24 hours be applied to a limited-time activity with negligible rewards. So I'll ask again, does the benefit outweigh the cost?

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No, I didn't. I said that the only ones who would complain loudest are the cheaters. Any honorable player would take his lumps on a disconnect. Since they're rare, they understand that it's not that big a deal.

    And, I said that there would be no "massive backlash".

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Don't get upset because of the content that lasts 1) less than month 2) is for fun 3) is a small addition.

    Not time and resources worthy content, but it's a nice idea for QoL. This event ends next Tuesday anyway.

    Seek, and you shall find.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It needs more than dishonor. It's needs a complete overhaul, or it needs to be scrapped. It's just AWFUL.

    I just had a game where the other team outnumbered ours the whole game. First 2-1. then 3-1, 3-2, 3-1 again, 3-2, 4-2, and finally the remainder of the game at 4-3.

    I had a game before that where there were 3 on each side. Before the match even started, two on my team left, reentered, and were placed on the other team. Two must have left the other team as well, because it was eventually 3-1 for most of the game.

    How can this be considered fun?

    And the fix is obvious and simple: put all new players on the losing team, and put dishonor on anybody who leaves. Even without dishonor (which might not be simple), just only adding people to the losing team makes it unprofitable to leave with intent to return.

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