Are the Ranged classes to powerful ? -Main Rang — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Are the Ranged classes to powerful ? -Main Rang

Hey guys im a Main Ranger and have been for a while but I can say 1 thing I try to switch to another class and then EVERY group I run into happens to have 1 sic em sniper and then my entire potential fight is turned into a Longbow 2 death ORRRRRRRRRRRR a Dead eye will snipe me from range for like 15k

my question is WHYYY D:

if we could potentially regulate ranged classes a bit how could this be done ?
Ranger is supposed to be a class that outsmarts people and is nimble and kites a whole bunch, while playing Defensive and offensive at the same time but ranger just doesn't really get punished it seems because of things like epic condi cleanse - there Heal, quickening Zeph, Lightning Reflex, insane boon uptime, Beast mode- for MORE dmg or sustain Ranger seems to be a low risk high reward class and don't even get me started on Dead eye XD

But I am just curious What is everyone elses opinions on Ranged classes opposed to Melee classes ? did the power creep put almost any Melee class at a disadvantage? Ive seen a lot of mixed opinions on this :)

im sure ill get a comment "well your just bad at guard" your probably right xD so ANY TIPS ARE ACCEPTED hahahaa :) Thanks all

Comments

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    rangers are quite easy to beat, deadeye is another story unless u catch em on error or they decide to fight it out (which are stupid ones).
    anyway both of em do not even get close to amount of "rewards" melee classes get.

    reward wise ranger/deadeye are prolly worst of all classes in wvw, so no worries about it.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    due to the way that wvw works, in a zerg versus zerg setting, either ranged ain't that great (back when most ranged attacks were just reflected), and we have melee clashes with rangers and the like being generally dismissed; or ranged is pretty great, and we end up with the current ship meta (still defined my unreflectable attacks).

    Wouldn't a much more useful question be.. is there anyway to balance this, to make room for melee fights and have ranged support work?

    The other day I was thinking that if only players had some kind of shield that stacks out of combat, and which reduces ranged damage, and that the only way to remove stacks is by hitting them with melee attacks, would that be an effective way to balance the use of ranged and melee fighters?

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    due to the way that wvw works, in a zerg versus zerg setting, either ranged ain't that great (back when most ranged attacks were just reflected), and we have melee clashes with rangers and the like being generally dismissed; or ranged is pretty great, and we end up with the current ship meta (still defined my unreflectable attacks).

    Wouldn't a much more useful question be.. is there anyway to balance this, to make room for melee fights and have ranged support work?

    The other day I was thinking that if only players had some kind of shield that stacks out of combat, and which reduces ranged damage, and that the only way to remove stacks is by hitting them with melee attacks, would that be an effective way to balance the use of ranged and melee fighters?

    When I play my deadeye I'd like range to be effective and fun. I mostly use low damage deaths judgement for boon steals and then control skills but that kind of makes things easier anyway. I mostly float around the map covering people and squads and despite not having the stopping power of some DE's, rifle 2 and 3 in Kneel is no joke but I'd be forced to my sword every time someone dropped in behind me.

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  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭

    You haven't seen the 12K Vaults thieves have been landing on my 3.2K armor.

    Rangers only shine in roaming, in larger groups the amount of projectile reflection and protection / armor boosts means ranger longbow and deadeye rifles are more gimmicky.

    Melee MUST do more sustained damage than ranged (in every game mode) because it's easier to avoid melee hits than ranged hits unless you're immobilized or stunlocked.

    That is the reason gunflame was toned down and so was CoR. Meteor shower is kept in check by a long cast time and recharge , the skill coefficient isn't that high at 1.6 scaling.

    Imagine if ranger longbow outdid greatsword, rev hammer did more than sword + sword, necro axe did more than GS or reaper shroud, or engineer rifle outdid Photon Forge or Bomb Kit. We'd have a huge issue.

    P.S. deadeyes can be blocked or reflected now.

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    Anet thinks that range classes should deal massive damage while melee classes have to deal low damage. I do not know how they came up with that hideous idea, but it is hurting the game bad. Perhaps Anet is just trying to appeal to their customers who the majority are rangers, thieves, mesmers.

    All the games that I have played, the melee classes are the ones that are supposed to hit the hardest due to their low range constrain.
    But in the "marvelous" game that Anet has created, it is the other way around!

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  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kirin.7306 said:
    17k backstabs

    Thief stays oor -> permastealthes -> tries to one shot -> permastealthes -> oor / ooc
    Thats not even close to melee class imo.

    15k hammers

    So, theres a Guardian, that has to sacrify Vita and mobility, just for one combo, mighty blow + judges intervention, with 36secs CD, great, not.

    12k mauls

    From a SB, that already has ridiculous range damage, great. SB is a range class, right?

    etc etc

    What is this "etc etc", just curious. What comes to my mind is maybe Dare Devil + Vault?

    Considering the kiting potential of range classes, it normally is not possible to apply melee damage constantly. And if a melee class finally manages to get close enough to its target, that target starts spamming dodge/evade/vigor/invuln/stabi/blocks. So, imo range damage is not the issue, but the combination with tons of other stuff, that gives at least temporary melee off / def ability and sustain to non-melee classes / specs on top of kiting / disengage abilities.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    15k hammers

    So, theres a Guardian, that has to sacrify Vita and mobility, just for one combo, mighty blow + judges intervention, with 36secs CD, great, not.

    I've been hit by higher dmg by hammer revs :P I think it topped to around 17-18k, this was also not during blust event. Not sure if they meant rev or guard though.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    15k hammers

    So, theres a Guardian, that has to sacrify Vita and mobility, just for one combo, mighty blow + judges intervention, with 36secs CD, great, not.

    I've been hit by higher dmg by hammer revs :P I think it topped to around 17-18k, this was also not during blust event. Not sure if they meant rev or guard though.

    Hammer Rev is ranged, so I might not get the point. The thread is about ranged classes outperforming melee classes. Examples, how powerfull ranged classes can hit at range or melee just strenghtens the point of the TO as I understand it.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    @enkidu.5937 said:
    The thread is about ranged classes outperforming melee classes.

    So, ranged outperform melee... Lets assume that for a moment. That the soulbeast is outperforming. Ok then what counters ranged? High mobility (to get close), reflects/blocks (to avoid damage or turn it against the ranged), stealth (supplemental to mobility) and cleanse/stunbreaks (to avoid kiting/immobilize).

    Which gives us mostly builds among...

    Mesmers, thieves, engies, rangers and warriors.

    Pure coincidence, I'm sure. Well the warrior cant stealth but I'm sure they deal with it.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @enkidu.5937 said:
    The thread is about ranged classes outperforming melee classes.

    So, ranged outperform melee... Lets assume that for a moment. That the soulbeast is outperforming. Ok then what counters ranged? High mobility (to get close), reflects/blocks (to avoid damage or turn it against the ranged), stealth (supplemental to mobility) and cleanse/stunbreaks (to avoid kiting/immobilize).

    Which gives us mostly builds among...

    Mesmers, thieves, engies, rangers and warriors.

    Pure coincidence, I'm sure. Well the warrior cant stealth but I'm sure they deal with it.

    How could these things counter ranged, when most ranged classes / specs also have it?

    So you're saying that a soulbeast isnt fit fight a soulbeast? Most of the them are strongest at melee range but some specifically counter ranged, yes. You never seen a thief backstab a ranged class before they even know they are there? Or a ranged class killing themselves on a mesmer? Or a warrior just tank through ranged fire.

    look its real simple, I'll spell it out for you: every other regular roaming spec is more than capable of fighting your average soulbeast.

    Are they strong? Well yes. Because every class is strong when helmed by good players.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Or a ranged class killing themselves on a mesmer?

    Honestly, it's been very long since I last saw a Ranger kill himself while attacking a mesmer because, you know, unblockables are a very common thing for Soulbeast.

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  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Or a ranged class killing themselves on a mesmer?

    Honestly, it's been very long since I last saw a Ranger kill himself while attacking a mesmer because, you know, unblockables are a very common thing for Soulbeast.

    Well bad soulbeasts are a very common thing too, most just knockback followed by rapid fire and forget unblockable. And if they do remember that, you dodge/teleport through it and is in melee range.

    Good rangers are dangerous but just as predictable as on rails shatter/condi mesmers or steal tp thieves.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only real problem right now is ranger have a bit too much unblockable effects in that it last for too long. (though at the same time there too much projectile hate.)
    So what we end up with is only ranger is able to use ranged attk and other classes are left out comply.

    Now out side of that rangers are lacking.

  • Ranged damage is not only class but individual spec dependant. DE,ranger and mesmer can pull off high spikes from range for sure but dh longbow and thief sb blow damage wise and are only usefull for utility, though true shot while tethered does ok but that’s quite the set up in pvp modes where it isn’t stripped or blocked 90% of the time

  • Either base damage in rapid fire should be reduced,six em numbers shaved to 25% or increase rapid fire CD. DE is a mess so don’t even want to try any suggestions

  • Ranged should be effective or there’s no point in having it as an option but if a skill does a lot of ranged dps it should have a heavy drawback like a long cd

  • Doo Lally.8594Doo Lally.8594 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Or a ranged class killing themselves on a mesmer?

    Honestly, it's been very long since I last saw a Ranger kill himself while attacking a mesmer because, you know, unblockables are a very common thing for Soulbeast.

    Even when I forget my unblockable(s) I've never died to reflect cos 'dodge' before I eat the entire damage. ;)

  • all I know is that me playing Soulbeast I mean there are definitely good players that can beat me im not a MVP soulbeast BUT I do know 1 on 1 using Longbow sic em I can really have an upperhand in most fights because of unblockable etc.
    I personally LOVE when I see a DH or guard because they try to block my dmg and I have unblockable up they don't even know what to do after that. but being on the receiving end sucks too xD (trying to get into guard)

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    @Kirin.7306 said:
    17k backstabs

    Thief stays oor -> permastealthes -> tries to one shot -> permastealthes -> oor / ooc
    Thats not even close to melee class imo.

    ... Backstab DE as cheesy as it is. Is melee....

    15k hammers

    So, theres a Guardian, that has to sacrify Vita and mobility, just for one combo, mighty blow + judges intervention, with 36secs CD, great, not.

    That build uses Valkyrie. With perma fury. No sacrifice in bit needed. And Also one of the few performing meta core classes in the game right now.

    12k mauls

    From a SB, that already has ridiculous range damage, great. SB is a range class, right?

    Prolly. I mean 20k Rapid fire is pretty funny to land on people

    etc etc

    What is this "etc etc", just curious. What comes to my mind is maybe Dare Devil + Vault?

    Prolly...

    Considering the kiting potential of range classes, it normally is not possible to apply melee damage constantly. And if a melee class finally manages to get close enough to its target, that target starts spamming dodge/evade/vigor/invuln/stabi/blocks. So, imo range damage is not the issue, but the combination with tons of other stuff, that gives at least temporary melee off / def ability and sustain to non-melee classes / specs on top of kiting / disengage abilities.

    Problem actually is everything from defense to damage and everything in between. Has been powercrept to ridiculousness. Everything needs to be nerfed or we will always have these polar extremes.
    Until Anet puts balance over profit. This will only get worse with the new expac.

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  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The only real problem right now is ranger have a bit too much unblockable effects in that it last for too long. (though at the same time there too much projectile hate.)
    So what we end up with is only ranger is able to use ranged attk and other classes are left out comply.

    Now out side of that rangers are lacking.

    Lacking what? They have plenty of sustain. Plenty of mobility and probably one of the most mobile next to thief.
    What are they lacking?

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  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Or a ranged class killing themselves on a mesmer?

    Honestly, it's been very long since I last saw a Ranger kill himself while attacking a mesmer because, you know, unblockables are a very common thing for Soulbeast.

    Had it happen last weekend as a firebrand.
    Literally 100-0 on reflect domes, it didn't even rapid fire just 1's.. Took 4 domes before it downed but yeah, I just stood there amazed.

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  • @sinsrock.1702 said:
    Hey guys im a Main Ranger and have been for a while but I can say 1 thing I try to switch to another class and then EVERY group I run into happens to have 1 sic em sniper and then my entire potential fight is turned into a Longbow 2 death ORRRRRRRRRRRR a Dead eye will snipe me from range for like 15k

    my question is WHYYY D:

    if we could potentially regulate ranged classes a bit how could this be done ?
    Ranger is supposed to be a class that outsmarts people and is nimble and kites a whole bunch, while playing Defensive and offensive at the same time but ranger just doesn't really get punished it seems because of things like epic condi cleanse - there Heal, quickening Zeph, Lightning Reflex, insane boon uptime, Beast mode- for MORE dmg or sustain Ranger seems to be a low risk high reward class and don't even get me started on Dead eye XD

    But I am just curious What is everyone elses opinions on Ranged classes opposed to Melee classes ? did the power creep put almost any Melee class at a disadvantage? Ive seen a lot of mixed opinions on this :)

    im sure ill get a comment "well your just bad at guard" your probably right xD so ANY TIPS ARE ACCEPTED hahahaa :) Thanks all

    Try and tell a ranged class they are OP when they completely unload into a tanky target with full berserker and barely break 2K damage. Then that same tanky target will down them in 2 hits. Ranged is anything but op. If you are getting killed by ranged quickly, it means you are running glassy like they are, so to be quickly killed is expected.

  • Rampage should still theoretically be nice as a melee skill for example. But counting z-axis advantage, yes ranged is very strong, is it only common sense to say it is an advantage. A lot of classes have ranged options.

  • idk if this is happening to anyone else, but lately what is getting me dislike the ranger/soulbeast, is that whenever i play a class that can stealth, they only use longbow 2 , and if i trigger stealth at the same time they trigger longbow2 , that ability still hits me...

  • eh idk about that, I run a mix of Cav/valk on my guard I know guard isn't always the tankiest because we have blocks but the only really tanky calss is a Warr, which is supposed to do that but you have full kiting ability and just walk around with swiftness, just don't hit full counters and war can be pretty easy . besides, even on tanky targets in full marauders im hitting 1.5 to 2k a basic. but I see what your saying :) thank you for the comment! :D

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @sinsrock.1702 said:
    Hey guys im a Main Ranger and have been for a while but I can say 1 thing I try to switch to another class and then EVERY group I run into happens to have 1 sic em sniper and then my entire potential fight is turned into a Longbow 2 death ORRRRRRRRRRRR a Dead eye will snipe me from range for like 15k

    my question is WHYYY D:

    if we could potentially regulate ranged classes a bit how could this be done ?
    Ranger is supposed to be a class that outsmarts people and is nimble and kites a whole bunch, while playing Defensive and offensive at the same time but ranger just doesn't really get punished it seems because of things like epic condi cleanse - there Heal, quickening Zeph, Lightning Reflex, insane boon uptime, Beast mode- for MORE dmg or sustain Ranger seems to be a low risk high reward class and don't even get me started on Dead eye XD

    But I am just curious What is everyone elses opinions on Ranged classes opposed to Melee classes ? did the power creep put almost any Melee class at a disadvantage? Ive seen a lot of mixed opinions on this :)

    im sure ill get a comment "well your just bad at guard" your probably right xD so ANY TIPS ARE ACCEPTED hahahaa :) Thanks all

    Try and tell a ranged class they are OP when they completely unload into a tanky target with full berserker and barely break 2K damage. Then that same tanky target will down them in 2 hits. Ranged is anything but op. If you are getting killed by ranged quickly, it means you are running glassy like they are, so to be quickly killed is expected.

  • @Aldoisnoob.4170 said:
    idk if this is happening to anyone else, but lately what is getting me dislike the ranger/soulbeast, is that whenever i play a class that can stealth, they only use longbow 2 , and if i trigger stealth at the same time they trigger longbow2 , that ability still hits me...

    When a player goes stealth all attacks should be target broken, so they either don't cast, or fly at nothing. Tracking is the 1 thing rangers have exploited to fight thieves since launch. Or just make all attacks that do land glancing blows as if they were weakened. I don't mind taking a hit from a channeled skill. I mind being 1 shot by it.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    All skills track stealth if they're used before the target stealths. If someone uses a leap skill as a target is stealthing, it'll still connect. (Unless the stealther uses evasion frames, which the two stealthiest professions have lots of access to.)
    I wouldn't be against them applying some sort of "concealment" debuff to attacks targeting stealth, but it would need to apply to all attacks and stealth as a mechanic would need to be toned down.

    Attacks with long channel times against stealth seems cheesy -- but so does near permanently being in stealth.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was cool.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • Zephyra.4709Zephyra.4709 Member ✭✭✭

    Is this a 1v1 or small scale fights? Try Sbreaker least it has skill/trait endure pain with passive heal skill signet. Retal boon is also a nice addition when they try to channel longbow #2 on you. Be wary of their unblockable capabilities this is where you should use endure pain / dodge / GS #3 evade instead of shield block since they can pew pew through. Now you can use your shield (trait for reflects) when you know they no longer have unblockables active.

    It's almost like a dance. Just don't let them step on your toes, you lead the way. Same thing with situational awareness... don't get too carried away the cunning ones will lure/kite you into stupid things like enemy tower buffs/siege/npcs.

    Hope that helps.

  • forgot to mention 16-20k gunflame

    @Kirin.7306 said:
    17k backstabs
    15k hammers
    12k mauls
    etc etc

  • Rangers are among my challenges. As a mirage I find better success in getting close to them and running around them while hitting them from the flanks. The challenging part is their knock down shot, followed by the rapid fire. If I ever fail to evade or block that, it is usually difficult to recover and balance out the engagement. They are not too powerful, but powerful enough to punish you if you screw up your routine.

    Rangers suffer most if they lose mobility, so stuns are important. Pistol 5 with domination trait to increase duration helps a lot, and also having mirage jumps and target breaks help. That is for me though. I cannot say about other classes vs ranger.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    15k hammers

    So, theres a Guardian, that has to sacrify Vita and mobility, just for one combo, mighty blow + judges intervention, with 36secs CD, great, not.

    I've been hit by higher dmg by hammer revs :P I think it topped to around 17-18k, this was also not during blust event. Not sure if they meant rev or guard though.

    Hammer Rev is ranged, so I might not get the point. The thread is about ranged classes outperforming melee classes. Examples, how powerfull ranged classes can hit at range or melee just strenghtens the point of the TO as I understand it.

    Rev does insane damage ranged or melee so maybe rev is a poor example.

    However I do thing ranged damage is far too high, no single ranged ability should be hitting for anything approaching 10k. Base game ranged weapons did a lot less damage and over the years ANet has left this ranged = low risk mantra in favour of MOAR DAMAAAAGÉ mantra.

  • @coro.3176 said:
    Damage is indeed too high. For example, a glass soulbeast can do a quickness unblockable rapid fire that will do 2.5k per hit (x10), plus sigil procs, possibly plus 2k One Wolf Pack hits. That's potentially 40k damage or more over a span of 1.8s. That's lethal on most classes in under 1s.. from twice most players' maximum engagement range.

    Follow up with 5-7k autoattacks until dead. If that didn't work, run until cooldowns are up. Repeat.

    It's not unbeatable, it's just really really extreme. Damage should not be that high.

    if someone runs S/wh and LB they can hit with 1 wolf pack for quite a lot....... its like 16 hits from WH-4 plus 10 hits from LB 2 - 26 hits x about 300 per tick is 7800 from just those, run unblockable and they may miss 2-3 of the ticks but that's it :p I used to run a super tanky spec and just use those because you can still release a BUNCH of dmg :p

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    With 2500 armor and 17k hp I get constant 1 shots from 2k range by soulbeast, it's not normal, and dmg could get nerf by half at least.
    Yea yea nub l2p, get reflects. My reflects deals nothing to the source, and if I don't have any stun break I'm just dead. Even if I stun break and get to target he just run away with his Dumbo mobility.
    I know zerk rangers are squishy but stone signet, wp.
    Ranged dmg is way to kitten high and could be nerfed by half easily. Thinking about deadeyes, soulbeast and zerg fights with scourges face rolling over keyboard and heralds pressing 2 and 3.

  • Ruufio.1496Ruufio.1496 Member ✭✭✭

    No the ranged classes are fine

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ruufio.1496 said:
    No the ranged classes are fine

    Yea, we have to keep that, cuz in case of nerfs they all will quit the game

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