[PvE] Quickbrand — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[PvE] Quickbrand

Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

I'm seriously looking at making the switch from Core Guard to Quickbrand. What kept me in Core was I disliked DH, loved GS, and really liked the added group utility the Virtues trait line provided. Now FB has way more utility to bring to the table, but I didn't want to go condi, and I read that power GS FB was a waste of time...until now apparently.

So while the attack rotation for Quickbrand is pretty similar to DH/Core, I have a lot to learn about FB, mainly which chapters of which tomes I should be using.

From what I can see, the obvious ones to use would be:
F1 - Chap 4
F2 - Chap 2
F3 - Chap 3 (when needed) and Chap 5

But there seems to be so many others that look good. Like F1 Chap 3 for an extra pull when binding blade is on CD, or F2 Chap 5. What about just using F2 Chap 3 for group swiftness? Is that better than putting F3 on cooldown to use Chap 1?

I assume I should be getting in and out tomes as quickly as possible as I'm DPS/support, not full support, so I'm trying to get a feel for what tomes/chapters I'm supposed to weave into my attacks.

TLDR: What tomes do you use and when and why?

Thanks :)

<1

Comments

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Unfortunately, I think Tomes are the worst part of FB. Not because they aren't useful, but because I don't feel you have many play options with them.

    For example, if you use F2 ... why would you NOT faceroll all the skills? ... the CD on the Tome is longer than the skills themselves. Same with F1 ... just faceroll to maximize burning ... no one in their right mind would use F1, use only ONE of the pages, then leave it. There might be situations where you want to play optimally and just use a single or couple skills, but in the end, that's not very many.

    People used to complain about the illusion of choice ... I feel this is really what they mean ... if you aren't using all the pages in the Tome, you simply aren't getting the best value for that CD rotation on the Tome ... and that means blind execution in most cases.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • There is a reason to use only one skill in tomes. Why waste time when you can get more damage when only using one and returning to weapon?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Unfortunately, I think Tomes are the worst part of FB. Not because they aren't useful, but because I don't feel you have many play options with them.

    For example, if you use F2 ... why would you NOT faceroll all the skills? ... the CD on the Tome is longer than the skills themselves. Same with F1 ... just faceroll to maximize burning ... no one in their right mind would use F1, use only ONE of the pages, then leave it. There might be situations where you want to play optimally and just use a single or couple skills, but in the end, that's not very many.

    People used to complain about the illusion of choice ... I feel this is really what they mean ... if you aren't using all the pages in the Tome, you simply aren't getting the best value for that CD rotation on the Tome ... and that means blind execution in most cases.

    I have to disagree here.

    Tome 1: primarily damage tome, thus sees use most of the time in burn builds like quick brand. Yet still you can use Tome 1s skill 3 to pull enemies together while playing a support build. Do you want to stay in tome 1 for the entire duration? Depends on how much damage your group eats.

    While on a burn build, there are specific priorities in skills to use. Tome 2, 4 and 5 take precedent over 1 and 3.

    Tome 2: healing tome. Tome 2 cleanses, absolutely useless when no need for condition cleanse is required, can be used by non support builds though. Tome 3 is of little use in a meta where you already have those boons. Once again, there is a priority system in place, tome 4 and 5 should be cast before tome 1 to maximize its efficiency.

    There is no reason to use all 5 charges as dps if all you needed was some condi cleanse for example.

    Tome 3: the aegis and utility tome. Useful abilities like a reflect bubble on tome 3 (once again of use to any build), aegis spam on 1, stability, aegis and protection on 5. Resistance on 4 and a taunt on 2. This tome especially can be used very differently depending on which situation calls for which utility. Most often people simply use skill 5, then spam skill 1 (which is fine if aegis is all you wanted).

    Once again, if all you wanted was the reflect bubble or some stability, why linger when playing a dps.


    While face-rolling the skills certainly might work, tomes can be used efficiently and specifically aimed at achieving specific goals. Using all the pages of a tome often only makes sense when this relates to the role you have in the group (tome 1 as dps, tome 2 and 3 as support), and makes less sense when switching to a tome which does not lend its self to your role for short term utility.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    I'm not disagreeing you can play the tomes optimally, but their isn't much incentive to do so either, especially on F2. There isn't a 'bonus' to only using one skill within a tome and the individual skills don't have enough flavour to make them very interesting to play as separate skills. Tomes are designed (unintentionally) to be used up. There are priorities but you're still not just using a tome of just that one skill and leaving it. I mean, we have a trait that adds pages ... why? How does that trait make sense in how tomes are designed if the intention is to use only the pages you need? It doesn't. It's a bad trait that reflects a bad implementation.

    I mean, the time argument doesn't work for me. That's a few seconds. That's relevant to people doing speed runs on instanced group content and that's not many people.

    Anyways, I think FB has alot to be desired for how it's implemented; nice concept though. If there was more variation of effects on the individual skills, there would be more reason to consider how they are used. Or maybe they could have considered mixing some of the effects; for example, I don't see any reason why skills in F1 can't do other things than burn foes. We got a pull (checkmark)... and then 4 other burning skills. BORING. F2 is about the same ... actually my big problem with F2 is that it's loaded with healing/cleansing ... is a there really a place in this game for a burst healing/cleanse effect once every tome ICD? I want healing cleansing when it's needed, not only when the CD is down. Same with F3 (or sorry, I can't give us reflect, I just blew the tome for that one other thing and left for that 2 extra seconds of DPS ... and we have to wait 50 seconds).

    I guess people make it work for them anyways; I just think it falls short.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Tome 3: the aegis and utility tome. Useful abilities like a reflect bubble on tome 3 (once again of use to any build), aegis spam on 1, stability, aegis and protection on 5. Resistance on 4 and a taunt on 2. This tome especially can be used very differently depending on which situation calls for which utility. Most often people simply use skill 5, then spam skill 1 (which is fine if aegis is all you wanted).

    Not like it matters that much but Tome 3 has been changed like 2 patch ago where the aegis on skill 1 got removed. There you go! Glad to help you <3

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Tome 3: the aegis and utility tome. Useful abilities like a reflect bubble on tome 3 (once again of use to any build), aegis spam on 1, stability, aegis and protection on 5. Resistance on 4 and a taunt on 2. This tome especially can be used very differently depending on which situation calls for which utility. Most often people simply use skill 5, then spam skill 1 (which is fine if aegis is all you wanted).

    Not like it matters that much but Tome 3 has been changed like 2 patch ago where the aegis on skill 1 got removed. There you go! Glad to help you <3

    True my bad, wasn't paying attention that much since I often only every need to use tome 2 when on heal FB but that leaves tome 3 skill 1 as stability source only. Makes the entire tome 3 less focused on skill 1.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Tome 3: the aegis and utility tome. Useful abilities like a reflect bubble on tome 3 (once again of use to any build), aegis spam on 1, stability, aegis and protection on 5. Resistance on 4 and a taunt on 2. This tome especially can be used very differently depending on which situation calls for which utility. Most often people simply use skill 5, then spam skill 1 (which is fine if aegis is all you wanted).

    Not like it matters that much but Tome 3 has been changed like 2 patch ago where the aegis on skill 1 got removed. There you go! Glad to help you <3

    True my bad, wasn't paying attention that much since I often only every need to use tome 2 when on heal FB but that leaves tome 3 skill 1 as stability source only. Makes the entire tome 3 less focused on skill 1.

    well skill one gives swiftness and stability still ... and resistance (number 4) is still a stun break ... plus aegis and retaliation on skill 5 ... that's very good.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    My issues with the tomes is three folds:

    1) to use the sustain tomes (resolve and courage) you cannot do damage. This maybe okay for support builds, but for damage builds it is a serious issue in your ability to pressure opponents in PvP or doing damage in PvE.

    2) the sustain offered by the tomes requires investment in healing power and boon duration. If not, the tomes are relatively not effective. That is not due to the tomes being weak, but the time needed to use the tome skills plus the constant pressure from opponents makes the tomes not effective under pressure without massive investment in support stats.

    3) outside of PvE, tomes damage capacity is limited. Using ToJ, even with full condi investment is largely ineffective. It is heavy melee and too much casting of 1-2 condis. A smart opponent can simply eat it then just hit cleanse once. It is also very easy to avoid or dodge.

    Due to these limitations FB is regulated to condi builds in PvE and support builds in PvP. I really wish sometimes I could play FB with core virtues. For damage builds (outside condi in PvE) this will be much better.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    My issues with the tomes is three folds:

    1) to use the sustain tomes (resolve and courage) you cannot do damage. This maybe okay for support builds, but for damage builds it is a serious issue in your ability to pressure opponents in PvP or doing damage in PvE.

    2) the sustain offered by the tomes requires investment in healing power and boon duration. If not, the tomes are relatively not effective. That is not due to the tomes being weak, but the time needed to use the tome skills plus the constant pressure from opponents makes the tomes not effective under pressure with massive investment in support stats.

    3) outside of PvE damage capacity is limited. Using ToJ, even with full condi investment is largely ineffective. It is heavy melee andtoo much casting of 1-2 condis. A smart opponent can simply eat it then just hot cleanse once. It is also very easy to avoid or dodge.

    Due to this limitations FB is regulated to condi builds in PvE and support builds in PvP. I really wish sometimes I could play FB with core virtues. For damage builds (outside condi in PvE) will be much better.

    Well the build is aimed for Fractal play, keeping up Quickness @ 100% using some Diviner gear., and that's actually the easy part, so long as people stack. What I'm struggling with is while my virtues used to be as simple as pressing F1-F3 before, and running Core I had the Virtues traitline to boost them even more, now I have these tomes to juggle, all the while trying to maintain my own DPS and survivability.

    Last night was pretty rough, as I was downed more times during last nights dailies than in the past few weeks combined., but I'm going to keep practicing and see if I find it enjoyable, and if not, I'll just switch back to Core Guard :)

  • @otto.5684 said:
    Due to these limitations FB is regulated

    regulated my kitten. not everything is a speed clear world record. I was playing zerk fb a while ago and it was fine.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Due to these limitations FB is regulated

    regulated my kitten. not everything is a speed clear world record. I was playing zerk fb a while ago and it was fine.

    I really wish people would stop defending poorly designed and/or optimized kitten. This “ohh I used and it worked for me” means absolutely nothing. If statistically it does not work well do not defend it and the devs need to kitten fix it.

    There is no optimal power FB build in PvE. It does not exist. There is no optimal any dps build for FB in PvP. These are major design issues that require devs to address. All they have been doing is kitten nerf support FB in PvP (rightfully so) with no consideration of anything else, for almost a year now (okay the killed hammer last patch).

    And you know, I play condi core guardian in sPvP with success. Does that mean that condi core guardian works fine? (no it doesn’t)

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Due to these limitations FB is regulated

    regulated my kitten. not everything is a speed clear world record. I was playing zerk fb a while ago and it was fine.

    I really wish people would stop defending poorly designed and/or optimized kitten. This “ohh I used and it worked for me” means absolutely nothing. If statistically it does not work well do not defend it and the devs need to kitten fix it.

    There is no optimal power FB build in PvE. It does not exist. There is no optimal any dps build for FB in PvP. These are major design issues that require devs to address. All they have been doing is kitten nerf support FB in PvP (rightfully so) with no consideration of anything else, for almost a year now (okay the killed hammer last patch).

    And you know, I play condi core guardian in sPvP with success. Does that mean that condi core guardian works fine? (no it doesn’t)

    While I have no interest in engaging in a pissing match over this, that a guild like Discretize lists Quickbrand as a 'meta' build would appear to contradict you.
    https://discretize.eu/builds/guardian/hybrid-firebrand

    But perhaps we are talking about different things, as Quickbrand is technically a Support build, not pure DPS. If we were talking pure DPS FB vs. DH or Core, I'd agree with you, but Quickbrand is about sacrificing a small portion of Power Guard DPS for 100% quickness uptime.

    EDIT: To further clarify, before I would open LFG with my Druid friend and LF Chrono/Firebrand + DPS. Now playing Quickbrand, my LFG is just "LF DPS". We have no source of alacrity, but I honestly feel that quickness has more of an impact on DPS at the fractal level, and if we score a DPS Chrono we'll get portals and focus pulls.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 I agree with that FB power providing quickness for a small group (like fractals) is very useful. But you also have to take in consideration that you can do the same thing with condi dps while doing far more damage.

    Not saying power support is useless, but FB needs much work to open diversity beyond being condi damage centric in PvE and only support in PvP. And the primary issue is the tome design. It is severely limiting.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Due to these limitations FB is regulated

    regulated my kitten. not everything is a speed clear world record. I was playing zerk fb a while ago and it was fine.

    I really wish people would stop defending poorly designed and/or optimized kitten. This “ohh I used and it worked for me” means absolutely nothing. If statistically it does not work well do not defend it and the devs need to kitten fix it.

    There is no optimal power FB build in PvE. It does not exist. There is no optimal any dps build for FB in PvP. These are major design issues that require devs to address. All they have been doing is kitten nerf support FB in PvP (rightfully so) with no consideration of anything else, for almost a year now (okay the killed hammer last patch).

    And you know, I play condi core guardian in sPvP with success. Does that mean that condi core guardian works fine? (no it doesn’t)

    With this I agree. Tomes just aren't executed well, even if people figure out how to hack them into decent gameplay. It makes little sense for Anet to give us a significant volume of mostly reactionary, focused skills that are rendered useless if you lock yourself out of using the tome for the duration of the CD. It sounds great to have the variety in a tome, but in practice, it's worthless to execute a single focused skill behind a tome you might need and not have access to the rest. Your previous post nailed the problems that exist with these tomes. I won't sing their praises; Anet traded good play-ability to give us banks of facerolling skills.

    Here are the rotations I use for each Tome:

    F1: 3,5,2,1,4 - Just pull and lay down massive burns. Little to think about here since every skill does pretty much the same thing
    F2: 5,2,1,4,3 - You can skip 2 if there aren't enough conditions on your group, otherwise, why would you do anything else?
    F3: 4,5,3,1,2 - Basically, get everyone up, buffed, and back in the fight.

    Honestly, I see no reason to do anything else with these Tomes except execute them in that order. F1 is purely offensive where little affects alternate rotations, F2 is purely healing with a slight variation depending on conditions, F3 is just a massive buff.

    I'm open to anyone that wants to suggest alternate rotations for different situations but since burns, heals and boons stack ... I see almost no real impact on alternate roations.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    I don't get why they lengthen the CD of tomes in pvp. Instead for both Pve and PvP they should lower the duration of some boons or look at the CD of chapters, it's a nonsense to have boons or effect that last longer than the CD itself.

    PvE. Personnaly I have Zerk, Viper and Harrier; all "quickness bot" builds are okai. Zerk is an option in a static group, with everybody zerk or diviner and great burst. Otherwise if you have healer or semi-afk members in the group and can't really burst, Viper will give you more DPS.
    I still favor Harrier; it allows to loop stab too, fury, protection, etc. And afer many attempts, because of new instabilities, like mobs enraging, - 30% HP, conditions/toxic trail everywhere etc, you can't run PUG without a healer/boon spam.
    It functions better than Ren with a Chrono or other supports; and also because Ren are a very rare creature in fractals, so a diviner/harrier ren is like a shiny unicorn.

    PvP. You still have core and DH, of course you have the bunker FB but you also have the mantra mender/harrier FB that is just broken in 2v2 (may be more boring than weaver vs weaver : FB vs FB with 25 might, retal, fury, quickness, protection, stab, aegis, heals .... ) Condi Fb is also a thing, I've never look at it but I assume this is like core condi.

    Otherwise, SC did it in december before patch https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/a8v9a8/sc_qt_cm100_shattered_observatory_firebrand/ And FB+Ren have been a thing in raids and fractals in some guilds since months, before "uber" guilds drop it after last patch and everyvody talk about it like a revolution. There is no "statistically weaker poorly designed" or idk, just people experimenting by themself before others give them the "sacred" compo to follow eyes closed.

  • @otto.5684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Due to these limitations FB is regulated

    regulated my kitten. not everything is a speed clear world record. I was playing zerk fb a while ago and it was fine.

    I really wish people would stop defending poorly designed and/or optimized kitten. This “ohh I used and it worked for me” means absolutely nothing. If statistically it does not work well do not defend it and the devs need to kitten fix it.

    There is no optimal power FB build in PvE. It does not exist. There is no optimal any dps build for FB in PvP. These are major design issues that require devs to address. All they have been doing is kitten nerf support FB in PvP (rightfully so) with no consideration of anything else, for almost a year now (okay the killed hammer last patch).

    And you know, I play condi core guardian in sPvP with success. Does that mean that condi core guardian works fine? (no it doesn’t)

    I guess if youre doing a raid it matters but for most pve content as long as you do decent dps and can dodge lol its not rocket science. just cuz something is not 100% optimal doesn't mean it cant work. its not on metabattle?! omg cant use it!

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Due to these limitations FB is regulated

    regulated my kitten. not everything is a speed clear world record. I was playing zerk fb a while ago and it was fine.

    I really wish people would stop defending poorly designed and/or optimized kitten. This “ohh I used and it worked for me” means absolutely nothing. If statistically it does not work well do not defend it and the devs need to kitten fix it.

    There is no optimal power FB build in PvE. It does not exist. There is no optimal any dps build for FB in PvP. These are major design issues that require devs to address. All they have been doing is kitten nerf support FB in PvP (rightfully so) with no consideration of anything else, for almost a year now (okay the killed hammer last patch).

    And you know, I play condi core guardian in sPvP with success. Does that mean that condi core guardian works fine? (no it doesn’t)

    I guess if youre doing a raid it matters but for most pve content as long as you do decent dps and can dodge lol its not rocket science. just cuz something is not 100% optimal doesn't mean it cant work. its not on metabattle?! omg cant use it!

    It is the same issue for open world PvE though. If I can deal significantly more damage with DH, using the same exact weapons, then why use anything else? For fun? I mean, ya sure, but then why do any class balance? Anyone can claim they like a specific underperforming build, and by default that makes it a good build cu it is a fun build.

    You can see how illogical this is. Why not give FB tools (like changing an absolutely useless trait like Stoic Demanor) to open up diversity.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    It is the same issue for open world PvE though. If I can deal significantly more damage with DH, using the same exact weapons, then why use anything else? For fun? I mean, ya sure, but then why do any class balance? Anyone can claim they like a specific underperforming build, and by default that makes it a good build cu it is a fun build.

    You can see how illogical this is. Why not give FB tools (like changing an absolutely useless trait like Stoic Demanor) to open up diversity.

    Fun is not logical. It's based on an emotional reaction and is different for every one of us.
    If optimal/good DPS is fun for you, I can see why you would have an issue with that. Just don't put all of us into that same box.

    That said, Stoic Demeanor needs to be changed. Nobody uses it, and it's just a dead-on-arrival trait.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:
    @Turkeyspit.3965 I agree with that FB power providing quickness for a small group (like fractals) is very useful. But you also have to take in consideration that you can do the same thing with condi dps while doing far more damage.

    Not saying power support is useless, but FB needs much work to open diversity beyond being condi damage centric in PvE and only support in PvP. And the primary issue is the tome design. It is severely limiting.

    Fractals isn't about DPS though, it's about burst, which makes Power Quickbrand better in Fractals than Condi Quickbrand. It's also not "far more damage" to run condi.

    As Power Quickbrand, you still use Justice 5 to prebuff, and you can dip into the tome in combat for Justice 4 and then drop it, as it has decent power damage and provides a Firefield for people like the BS to spin in for a DPS increase. Justice 3 can be useful for small pulls/interrupt at trash, or finishing off a breakbar.
    Resolve can be useful to dip into for 5+4 for a quick mass condi cleanse and some heals, especially in no heal groups.
    Courage is extremely useful in a variety of situations, mostly for the Reflect bubble, be it at MAMA when going to burst the first Knight and she's shooting out orbs or Artsariiv for obvious reasons, it's nice to dip in and drop a 3+5. Or for 5 + 1 spam at the last phase of Ensolyss.

    Power Quickbrand is as far from useless as it gets, it's Meta.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Chuck.2864Chuck.2864 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Due to these limitations FB is regulated

    regulated my kitten. not everything is a speed clear world record. I was playing zerk fb a while ago and it was fine.

    I really wish people would stop defending poorly designed and/or optimized kitten. This “ohh I used and it worked for me” means absolutely nothing. If statistically it does not work well do not defend it and the devs need to kitten fix it.

    There is no optimal power FB build in PvE. It does not exist. There is no optimal any dps build for FB in PvP. These are major design issues that require devs to address. All they have been doing is kitten nerf support FB in PvP (rightfully so) with no consideration of anything else, for almost a year now (okay the killed hammer last patch).

    And you know, I play condi core guardian in sPvP with success. Does that mean that condi core guardian works fine? (no it doesn’t)

    I guess if youre doing a raid it matters but for most pve content as long as you do decent dps and can dodge lol its not rocket science. just cuz something is not 100% optimal doesn't mean it cant work. its not on metabattle?! omg cant use it!

    It is the same issue for open world PvE though. If I can deal significantly more damage with DH, using the same exact weapons, then why use anything else? For fun? I mean, ya sure, but then why do any class balance? Anyone can claim they like a specific underperforming build, and by default that makes it a good build cu it is a fun build.

    You can see how illogical this is. Why not give FB tools (like changing an absolutely useless trait like Stoic Demanor) to open up diversity.

    FB has so much that DH doesn't have though. Power Quickbrand can basically carry groups of randoms in bosses or whatever through perma quickness, and application of stab & protection & healing if you spec for it.

    I hate DH and I will never play it outside of fractals and raids, so I'm biased, but FB is way more fun IMO and brings different things. I run around in open world with a mix of Harriers and Celestial gear that I use in WvW roaming with FB, it has more than enough DPS due to perma quickness to do solo content easily and can support a group where DH offers nothing but personal DPS.

    Is it ideal? No. But who cares? It's open world. I don't believe a support oriented spec like FB should have the same personal DPS as a DH anyway. We need to stop obsessing over this because it will ultimately lead to specs all being DPS bots with no unique strengths and weaknesses.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    What FB does and how well it does it isn't related to how it's implemented. Just because it's the best spec for carrying noobs or doing condition damage doesn't change the points that Otto and I have presented. Our arguments aren't about how ideal it is (well, mine aren't). It's basically about Anet giving FB the illusion of having 'depth' as an espec because of the 'variety' of skills you get in Tomes; F1 isn't variety and neither is F2.

    Jeez, I got more variety from the mantras than I do the 15 'different' skills in all the tomes. Kinda sad.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tormod the Fox.2368Tormod the Fox.2368 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    I am very surprised no one has mentioned the difference of viability comparing Vanilla Guard F1-3 to FB F1-3. Damage wise in PvP where vanilla and DH both are better at doing their job than a FB damage build which is mostly caused by the difference in F1-F3 skills.

    In PvE, my burning Fire Brand feels so vulnerable w/o a useful f2 and f3 to use when compared to how he used to play as vanilla burn guard in PvE.
    Also, another thing about condi FB is that when switching from axe, a huge dps loss is taken. Combining these two facts and cons makes using FB very clunky in general. It's very unrefined.

    I am in agreement with Obtena and Otto on the whole subject. It is execution that is gimmicky. The whole reason to compare Vanilla Guard to DH to FB F1-3s is that while Vanilla Guard and DragonHunter can use their F2+3 while doing damage, and FB can not. This renders FB F2-3 almost useless.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    I am very surprised no one has mentioned the difference of viability comparing Vanilla Guard F1-3 to FB F1-3. Damage wise in PvP where vanilla and DH both are better at doing their job than a FB damage build which is mostly caused by the difference in F1-F3 skills.

    In PvE, my burning Fire Brand feels so vulnerable w/o a useful f2 and f3 to use when compared to how he used to play as vanilla burn guard in PvE.
    Also, another thing about condi FB is that when switching from axe, a huge dps loss is taken. Combining these two facts and cons makes using FB very clunky in general. It's very unrefined.

    I am in agreement with Obtena and Otto on the whole subject. It is execution that is gimmicky. The whole reason to compare Vanilla Guard to DH to FB F1-3s is that while Vanilla Guard and DragonHunter can use their F2+3 while doing damage, and FB can not. This renders FB F2-3 almost useless.

    Firebrand is support-oriented spec, of course it's hard to play it like pure dps guard or DH... but that doesn't means tome skill is useless. Anet give guardian an option to play support role, so why do u care about dps when you're support ? Insist to play quickbrand then tell everyone that FB sucks, lol

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Due to these limitations FB is regulated

    regulated my kitten. not everything is a speed clear world record. I was playing zerk fb a while ago and it was fine.

    I really wish people would stop defending poorly designed and/or optimized kitten. This “ohh I used and it worked for me” means absolutely nothing. If statistically it does not work well do not defend it and the devs need to kitten fix it.

    There is no optimal power FB build in PvE. It does not exist. There is no optimal any dps build for FB in PvP. These are major design issues that require devs to address. All they have been doing is kitten nerf support FB in PvP (rightfully so) with no consideration of anything else, for almost a year now (okay the killed hammer last patch).

    And you know, I play condi core guardian in sPvP with success. Does that mean that condi core guardian works fine? (no it doesn’t)

    With this I agree. Tomes just aren't executed well, even if people figure out how to hack them into decent gameplay. It makes little sense for Anet to give us a significant volume of mostly reactionary, focused skills that are rendered useless if you lock yourself out of using the tome for the duration of the CD. It sounds great to have the variety in a tome, but in practice, it's worthless to execute a single focused skill behind a tome you might need and not have access to the rest. Your previous post nailed the problems that exist with these tomes. I won't sing their praises; Anet traded good play-ability to give us banks of facerolling skills.

    Here are the rotations I use for each Tome:

    F1: 3,5,2,1,4 - Just pull and lay down massive burns. Little to think about here since every skill does pretty much the same thing

    3 is a pull, absolutely no use in using it first unless you actually want to pull enemies. Using 2 first makes it available as final skill making the rotation go 2,4,5,1,2. You have now optimized your damage.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    F2: 5,2,1,4,3 - You can skip 2 if there aren't enough conditions on your group, otherwise, why would you do anything else?

    Going 5, 4 first over 1 provides group wide healing without having to worry about players being in front of you and will generate more healing for the remainder of the tome if you spam 1.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    F3: 4,5,3,1,2 - Basically, get everyone up, buffed, and back in the fight.

    Going 5 first provides aegis and stab which will protect the group for the next 1-2 seconds if under pressure. 4 is only useful when condis are involved. Using 3 back to back can make certain fights go a lot smoother (Ice Elemental in the Ice fractal for example).

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Honestly, I see no reason to do anything else with these Tomes except execute them in that order. F1 is purely offensive where little affects alternate rotations, F2 is purely healing with a slight variation depending on conditions, F3 is just a massive buff.

    I'm open to anyone that wants to suggest alternate rotations for different situations but since burns, heals and boons stack ... I see almost no real impact on alternate roations.

    Again, while within roles the tomes might be very strait forward (with slight variations depending on specific fights and mostly if conditions are involved or not), the main variation comes from using off build tomes correctly. Using a reflect bubble to protect your group even while running a DPS build or providing resistance/stability can be of a ton of use. Dropping an Eternal Oasis as a DPS can help out your healers and remove condition pressure.

    The same applies to heal builds and Tome of Justice even if less useful (since Tome 2 and 3 are support tomes).

    I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted.
    Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted.
    Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use.

    I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes.

    For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills.

    I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted.
    Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use.

    I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes.

    For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills.

    I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't.

    I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted.
    Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use.

    I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes.

    For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills.

    I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't.

    I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme.

    My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations.

    Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better.

    Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else.

    Unrelated note, whoever is making the changes on Anets side last 3-4 patches seems to have never played guardian before.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted.
    Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use.

    I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes.

    For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills.

    I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't.

    I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme.

    My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations.

    So basically like any weapon kit in this game has worked? Yes, there is a limit to how much core game mechanics can be changed. The alternative would have been no tomes or some kitten system of part tome skills, which would have people complaining too.

    @otto.5684 said:
    Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better.

    Some classes lend themselves to power, others to condition damage. Firebrand is condition in this case simply due to the nature of Tome 1 and the expansion upon the guardians theme to provide burning.

    @otto.5684 said:
    Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else.

    Considering FB is still blatantly overpowered (in WvW and PvE) and can provide 100% quickness up-time with as little as 15% boon duration, I'd say who ever is doing the balance will implement way more changes which will not be to your liking. Don't get me wrong, I love FB (and guardian in general) right now, but man it's obscenely broken beyond belief currently.

  • Tormod the Fox.2368Tormod the Fox.2368 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    I am very surprised no one has mentioned the difference of viability comparing Vanilla Guard F1-3 to FB F1-3. Damage wise in PvP where vanilla and DH both are better at doing their job than a FB damage build which is mostly caused by the difference in F1-F3 skills.

    In PvE, my burning Fire Brand feels so vulnerable w/o a useful f2 and f3 to use when compared to how he used to play as vanilla burn guard in PvE.
    Also, another thing about condi FB is that when switching from axe, a huge dps loss is taken. Combining these two facts and cons makes using FB very clunky in general. It's very unrefined.

    I am in agreement with Obtena and Otto on the whole subject. It is execution that is gimmicky. The whole reason to compare Vanilla Guard to DH to FB F1-3s is that while Vanilla Guard and DragonHunter can use their F2+3 while doing damage, and FB can not. This renders FB F2-3 almost useless.

    Firebrand is support-oriented spec, of course it's hard to play it like pure dps guard or DH... but that doesn't means tome skill is useless. Anet give guardian an option to play support role, so why do u care about dps when you're support ? Insist to play quickbrand then tell everyone that FB sucks, lol

    First off, you are completely off. What weapon was introduced with FB? It was axe. What is axe used for? Condi dps.. tyvm for your opinion. But, you need to face the facts.
    Just because support is what it is mostly used for does not mean the base design was made for that. This just shows how much Anet is off with the balance of the game.
    As stated by Otto and myself when using F2+3 while equipped for damage, you lose the chance to keep dps up since those tomes over ride your skills. Meanwhile base guard can still do damage while instant casting their F2+3..
    You can not argue the tomes are useless for a damage spec FB which is the base design for FB.
    I did not say that FB was sucks. It's just clunky and lazy design or balance which makes it feel dull.

  • Tormod the Fox.2368Tormod the Fox.2368 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted.
    Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use.

    I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes.

    For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills.

    I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't.

    I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme.

    My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations.

    Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better.

    Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else.

    Unrelated note, whoever is making the changes on Anets side last 3-4 patches seems to have never played guardian before.

    Stop fighting with Cyninja, because they seem to be saying the same thing over and over again. He won't admit that tomes are gimmicky.

    I bet he never played vanilla guard with their elite tomes back in the day. It seems like Anet just copied and pasted the clunky kitten design of those skills.

    In fact the whole entire Guardian profession seems off just like Elementalist. We were given support weapons with base game: staff, mace, and shield. Support was viable in PvP but not PvE. Until now people were begging Anet to make a support elite spec, since elite specs, raids, and combat trinity has come into the game via HoT. We finally get an elite spec with support aspects, but then it completely ruins the condi and main aspect of the elite spec.

    My comparison to Elementalist was that the constant years of nerfs to ele's damage, since ele was #1 dps for so long. Yet, the base design allowed us to be top damage because we were the squishiest. Anet can not make up their minds, and they have no clue about the base design of all professions. They have fired so many people that we have very few who have even come from GW(1).

    I remember when I used to watch GW2 employees stream game play, and every time they would have hover over the skills. It was obvious they did not play the game or knew much about it. I bet it's the same for most of the company.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted.
    Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use.

    I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes.

    For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills.

    I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't.

    I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme.

    My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations.

    Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better.

    Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else.

    Unrelated note, whoever is making the changes on Anets side last 3-4 patches seems to have never played guardian before.

    Stop fighting with Cyninja, because they seem to be saying the same thing over and over again. He won't admit that tomes are gimmicky.

    I bet he never played vanilla guard with their elite tomes back in the day. It seems like Anet just copied and pasted the clunky kitten design of those skills.

    In fact, I did, even played it in fractal 50 and before the initial fractal rework in 30+.

    Guardian was always very strait forward even with the elite tomes which were very clunky (and honestly not used all that much since back then, support builds were non existent). Even had a cleric guard for carrying people through fractals. Thanks for your baseless assumptions though.

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    In fact the whole entire Guardian profession seems off just like Elementalist. We were given support weapons with base game: staff, mace, and shield. Support was viable in PvP but not PvE. Until now people were begging Anet to make a support elite spec, since elite specs, raids, and combat trinity has come into the game via HoT. We finally get an elite spec with support aspects, but then it completely ruins the condi and main aspect of the elite spec.

    No, what is off is you being unhappy with how guardian feels after major reworks and redesigns to their spirit weapons, elite skills and orientation. As far as game modes, viability and usefulness: guardian is one of the few classes which have multiple desired builds in multiple game modes fulfilling multiple roles. Some people enjoy the class (like myself) because it can finally be of use, others like you do not. Tough break.

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    My comparison to Elementalist was that the constant years of nerfs to ele's damage, since ele was #1 dps for so long. Yet, the base design allowed us to be top damage because we were the squishiest. Anet can not make up their minds, and they have no clue about the base design of all professions. They have fired so many people that we have very few who have even come from GW(1).

    Except elementalist was not the "squishiest" for a very long time and in-between. Elementalist bunker builds were always among the most tanky builds there were and still are (since you enjoy talking about pvp). Only difference now is that they lack the damage to kill things which makes them less viable in WvW and Spvp when going bunker.

    Also I was looking at guardian and it's development in pve since TC was talking about pve in case you did not notice.

  • Tormod the Fox.2368Tormod the Fox.2368 Member ✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted.
    Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use.

    I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes.

    For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills.

    I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't.

    I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme.

    My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations.

    Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better.

    Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else.

    Unrelated note, whoever is making the changes on Anets side last 3-4 patches seems to have never played guardian before.

    Stop fighting with Cyninja, because they seem to be saying the same thing over and over again. He won't admit that tomes are gimmicky.

    I bet he never played vanilla guard with their elite tomes back in the day. It seems like Anet just copied and pasted the clunky kitten design of those skills.

    In fact, I did, even played it in fractal 50 and before the initial fractal rework in 30+.

    Guardian was always very strait forward even with the elite tomes which were very clunky (and honestly not used all that much since back then, support builds were non existent). Even had a cleric guard for carrying people through fractals. Thanks for your baseless assumptions though.

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    In fact the whole entire Guardian profession seems off just like Elementalist. We were given support weapons with base game: staff, mace, and shield. Support was viable in PvP but not PvE. Until now people were begging Anet to make a support elite spec, since elite specs, raids, and combat trinity has come into the game via HoT. We finally get an elite spec with support aspects, but then it completely ruins the condi and main aspect of the elite spec.

    No, what is off is you being unhappy with how guardian feels after major reworks and redesigns to their spirit weapons, elite skills and orientation. As far as game modes, viability and usefulness: guardian is one of the few classes which have multiple desired builds in multiple game modes fulfilling multiple roles. Some people enjoy the class (like myself) because it can finally be of use, others like you do not. Tough break.

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    My comparison to Elementalist was that the constant years of nerfs to ele's damage, since ele was #1 dps for so long. Yet, the base design allowed us to be top damage because we were the squishiest. Anet can not make up their minds, and they have no clue about the base design of all professions. They have fired so many people that we have very few who have even come from GW(1).

    Except elementalist was not the "squishiest" for a very long time and in-between. Elementalist bunker builds were always among the most tanky builds there were and still are (since you enjoy talking about pvp). Only difference now is that they lack the damage to kill things which makes them less viable in WvW and Spvp when going bunker.

    Also I was looking at guardian and it's development in pve since TC was talking about pve in case you did not notice.

    Wow, you seem to know even less than I imagined. First off, I did not mention Guardian's spirit weapons, elite skills nor orientation. FB base design is condi via axe. this can not be argued.

    All I did was say that F2-3 is useless in comparison to vanilla-guard and DH. Again, this can not be argued. Just because you want to defend Anet does not mean Anet is in the right. Their balance has been terrible ever since vanilla, and elite specs are coming out less polished and refined than when they were introduced.
    You even contradict yourself by admitting how even back then, when tomes were elites, that they were gimmicky.

    Btw, my mention of ele was not for pvp; no one ever played bunker ele in pve... And now, I barely play ele because of the years of nerfs to staff. Yes, ele was one of the squishiest berserkers to play in vanilla pve; I'm not sure how you think otherwise. It's fact.

    I planned from pre-launch to play four classes evenly, and for a time I did along with vanilla-Guard Permeating Wrath. It's sad to say that FB along with axe feels less interesting and fleshed out because of the F2+3s than vanilla. I am completely focused on F2-3 in this thread, so please do not even mention other problems that Guardian has and blame me for disliking them. Let us not talk of PvP, unless it is the fact that burning FB is not used in PvP, because of the fact of F2+3... Which is just one example.

  • Tormod the Fox.2368Tormod the Fox.2368 Member ✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    @otto.5684 said:
    Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better.

    Some classes lend themselves to power, others to condition damage. Firebrand is condition in this case simply due to the nature of Tome 1 and the expansion upon the guardians theme to provide burning.

    @otto.5684 said:
    Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else.

    Considering FB is still blatantly overpowered (in WvW and PvE) and can provide 100% quickness up-time with as little as 15% boon duration, I'd say who ever is doing the balance will implement way more changes which will not be to your liking. Don't get me wrong, I love FB (and guardian in general) right now, but man it's obscenely broken beyond belief currently.

    The fact that you keep switching the subject to 'well it works in this situation', shows that you are not even interested in discussing why and how FB F2+3 does not work atm.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    @otto.5684 said:
    Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better.

    Some classes lend themselves to power, others to condition damage. Firebrand is condition in this case simply due to the nature of Tome 1 and the expansion upon the guardians theme to provide burning.

    @otto.5684 said:
    Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else.

    Considering FB is still blatantly overpowered (in WvW and PvE) and can provide 100% quickness up-time with as little as 15% boon duration, I'd say who ever is doing the balance will implement way more changes which will not be to your liking. Don't get me wrong, I love FB (and guardian in general) right now, but man it's obscenely broken beyond belief currently.

    The fact that you keep switching the subject to 'well it works in this situation', shows that you are not even interested in discussing why and how FB F2+3 does not work atm.

    FB F2+3 work perfectly fine in PvE and WvW.

    As a matter of fact, I'm predicting the skills getting nerfed with some future balance patch.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted.
    Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use.

    I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes.

    For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills.

    I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't.

    I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme.

    My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations.

    Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better.

    Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else.

    Unrelated note, whoever is making the changes on Anets side last 3-4 patches seems to have never played guardian before.

    Stop fighting with Cyninja, because they seem to be saying the same thing over and over again. He won't admit that tomes are gimmicky.

    I bet he never played vanilla guard with their elite tomes back in the day. It seems like Anet just copied and pasted the clunky kitten design of those skills.

    In fact, I did, even played it in fractal 50 and before the initial fractal rework in 30+.

    Guardian was always very strait forward even with the elite tomes which were very clunky (and honestly not used all that much since back then, support builds were non existent). Even had a cleric guard for carrying people through fractals. Thanks for your baseless assumptions though.

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    In fact the whole entire Guardian profession seems off just like Elementalist. We were given support weapons with base game: staff, mace, and shield. Support was viable in PvP but not PvE. Until now people were begging Anet to make a support elite spec, since elite specs, raids, and combat trinity has come into the game via HoT. We finally get an elite spec with support aspects, but then it completely ruins the condi and main aspect of the elite spec.

    No, what is off is you being unhappy with how guardian feels after major reworks and redesigns to their spirit weapons, elite skills and orientation. As far as game modes, viability and usefulness: guardian is one of the few classes which have multiple desired builds in multiple game modes fulfilling multiple roles. Some people enjoy the class (like myself) because it can finally be of use, others like you do not. Tough break.

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    My comparison to Elementalist was that the constant years of nerfs to ele's damage, since ele was #1 dps for so long. Yet, the base design allowed us to be top damage because we were the squishiest. Anet can not make up their minds, and they have no clue about the base design of all professions. They have fired so many people that we have very few who have even come from GW(1).

    Except elementalist was not the "squishiest" for a very long time and in-between. Elementalist bunker builds were always among the most tanky builds there were and still are (since you enjoy talking about pvp). Only difference now is that they lack the damage to kill things which makes them less viable in WvW and Spvp when going bunker.

    Also I was looking at guardian and it's development in pve since TC was talking about pve in case you did not notice.

    Wow, you seem to know even less than I imagined. First off, I did not mention Guardian's spirit weapons, elite skills nor orientation. FB base design is condi via axe. this can not be argued.

    All I did was say that F2-3 is useless in comparison to vanilla-guard and DH. Again, this can not be argued. Just because you want to defend Anet does not mean Anet is in the right. Their balance has been terrible ever since vanilla, and elite specs are coming out less polished and refined than when they were introduced.
    You even contradict yourself by admitting how even back then, when tomes were elites, that they were gimmicky.

    Btw, my mention of ele was not for pvp; no one ever played bunker ele in pve... And now, I barely play ele because of the years of nerfs to staff. Yes, ele was one of the squishiest berserkers to play in vanilla pve; I'm not sure how you think otherwise. It's fact.

    I planned from pre-launch to play four classes evenly, and for a time I did along with vanilla-Guard Permeating Wrath. It's sad to say that FB along with axe feels less interesting and fleshed out because of the F2+3s than vanilla. I am completely focused on F2-3 in this thread, so please do not even mention other problems that Guardian has and blame me for disliking them. Let us not talk of PvP, unless it is the fact that burning FB is not used in PvP, because of the fact of F2+3... Which is just one example.

    Given FB F2+3 are one of the core reasons why FB is currently insanely overpowered (for pve and WvW), not sure what you want. Also your constant insults do not make you seem any smarter or more competent, just petty.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    @otto.5684 said:
    Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better.

    Some classes lend themselves to power, others to condition damage. Firebrand is condition in this case simply due to the nature of Tome 1 and the expansion upon the guardians theme to provide burning.

    @otto.5684 said:
    Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else.

    Considering FB is still blatantly overpowered (in WvW and PvE) and can provide 100% quickness up-time with as little as 15% boon duration, I'd say who ever is doing the balance will implement way more changes which will not be to your liking. Don't get me wrong, I love FB (and guardian in general) right now, but man it's obscenely broken beyond belief currently.

    The fact that you keep switching the subject to 'well it works in this situation', shows that you are not even interested in discussing why and how FB F2+3 does not work atm.

    We should be careful ... F2 and F3 work and the skills in them as well as any hotbar skill Guardians have. There are many issues with Tomes but 'not working well' isn't one of them. Despite the issues, they are actually quite powerful skills and the fact we have access to so many, it's easy to argue they are OPed if they weren't actually held in check by the limitations they have as outlined in this thread.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tormod the Fox.2368Tormod the Fox.2368 Member ✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    Let me write out some factual numbers for everyone, so they can see how clunky it is.
    I am going to take Virtue of Resolve for an example.

    Virtue of Resolve = Instant Cast = Health gained: 1,625 + (1.4 * healing), Self condi removal: 2, Radius 600, Max Targets 5 = CD 30sec
    Wings of Resolve = 1sec Cast = Health gained: 3,890 + (1.2 * healing), Self condi removal: 2, Radius 240, Range 800, Combo Finisher: Leap = CD 30sec

    Tome of Resolve = .5sec Cast = Equipping Tome = CD 50sec

    • Chapter 2 = .75sec Cast = Healing Per Removed Condition: 457 + (0.77 * healing), Conditions Removed: 3, Max targets: 5, Radius: 240 = CD 50sec
    • Chapter 4 = .75sec Cast = Health gained: 376 (0.26 * healing), Swiftness 5 sec, Pulses: 5, Radius 360, Water-Field = CD 50sec

    If we say Tome of Resolve: Ch 2 cleanses 2 condis, then...
    [Tome of Resolve = [2sec Cast] = Health gained: 914 + 1880[=2,794], Condi removal: 2, Max targets:5, Radius: 240 to 360, Swifness 5 sec, Water-Field =
    [CD 50sec] ]

    I should not even have to say this, but let us remember there is after-cast on tome and tome skills. By the time you equip and sheath tome quickness is used up from minor trait, so I will not even include it in calculations, since after-cast makes it longer than the actual numbers told to us. You can see here; it is almost double CD and double casting time along with less healing from only using two skills from kit. By the time I get healed, most of the time a mob can do greater damage while I am not able to up keep any damage. I would also HAVE TO take scepter for ranged, or else I would be stationary in water field getting rest of the heals I need.

    If someone uses all melee like myself with Axe/Torch and Sword/Focus, then you would have to use Chapter1 of Resolve instead of Chapter4 and get less healing. Or, one could use focus#5 which takes more coordination with which weapon set is current and CDs, then I'm all out of blast finishers for a fire field.

  • The above numbers say that Tomes are weak. If Anet got rid of the after-cast and doubled quickness from minor trait, maybe it would not be so weak, but then the support build would be even more powerful. You see, Anet has pigeon-holed themselves into a balancing issue. It goes beyond clunky.

  • Tormod the Fox.2368Tormod the Fox.2368 Member ✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    What they should do is something like Daredevil's Grandmaster Traits, and let burning guards take only ToJ, and leave the other tomes off. They would have to create new mechanics for F2+3 though for the replacements...

  • ^comment about a new trait function, and what if, tomes 2+3 would become one cast skills that would have effects of chapter2 & chapter 3 combined with a cast time of maybe 1 to 1.25 sec? that would probably be fun to use.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    Let me write out some factual numbers for everyone, so they can see how clunky it is.
    I am going to take Virtue of Resolve for an example.

    Virtue of Resolve = Instant Cast = Health gained: 1,625 + (1.4 * healing), Self condi removal: 2, Radius 600, Max Targets 5 = CD 30sec
    Wings of Resolve = 1sec Cast = Health gained: 3,890 + (1.2 * healing), Self condi removal: 2, Radius 240, Range 800, Combo Finisher: Leap = CD 30sec

    Tome of Resolve = .5sec Cast = Equipping Tome = CD 50sec

    • Chapter 2 = .75sec Cast = Healing Per Removed Condition: 457 + (0.77 * healing), Conditions Removed: 3, Max targets: 5, Radius: 240 = CD 50sec
    • Chapter 4 = .75sec Cast = Health gained: 376 (0.26 * healing), Swiftness 5 sec, Pulses: 5, Radius 360, Water-Field = CD 50sec

    If we say Tome of Resolve: Ch 2 cleanses 2 condis, then...
    [Tome of Resolve = [2sec Cast] = Health gained: 914 + 1880[=2,794], Condi removal: 2, Max targets:5, Radius: 240 to 360, Swifness 5 sec, Water-Field =
    [CD 50sec] ]

    I should not even have to say this, but let us remember there is after-cast on tome and tome skills. By the time you equip and sheath tome quickness is used up from minor trait, so I will not even include it in calculations, since after-cast makes it longer than the actual numbers told to us. You can see here; it is almost double CD and double casting time along with less healing from only using two skills from kit. By the time I get healed, most of the time a mob can do greater damage while I am not able to up keep any damage. I would also HAVE TO take scepter for ranged, or else I would be stationary in water field getting rest of the heals I need.

    If someone uses all melee like myself with Axe/Torch and Sword/Focus, then you would have to use Chapter1 of Resolve instead of Chapter4 and get less healing. Or, one could use focus#5 which takes more coordination with which weapon set is current and CDs, then I'm all out of blast finishers for a fire field.

    You realise the Tomes were heavily nerfed multiple times due to them being way to strong, which is how we got to the current version.
    Which still work great and do exactly what they are intended to by the way, provide greater support with a bigger opportunity cost.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Tormod the Fox.2368Tormod the Fox.2368 Member ✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:
    You realise the Tomes were heavily nerfed multiple times due to them being way to strong, which is how we got to the current version.
    Which still work great and do exactly what they are intended to by the way, provide greater support with a bigger opportunity cost.

    I like how you try to argue and have no ground to do so. You can not argue with my comparison and facts.
    All changes from Tome of Resolve chp2 and chp4 were pvp only changes. We are talking about PvE.
    Tome of Resolve changes include:
    December 11, 2018_The base cooldown of this skill has been increased from 40 seconds to 50 seconds.
    November 07, 2017_Firebrand tome skills now set each other on a 0.5-second cooldown upon equip.
    Your argument does not stand with the current time nor the past.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    You realise the Tomes were heavily nerfed multiple times due to them being way to strong, which is how we got to the current version.
    Which still work great and do exactly what they are intended to by the way, provide greater support with a bigger opportunity cost.

    I like how you try to argue and have no ground to do so. You can not argue with my comparison and facts.

    You mean how you compare a single skill from DH to a tome with up to 5 uses, which has skills like Eternal Oasis and Shining River in it? Yes, very scientific and irrefutable...

    Not even the people who dislike the implementation of the tome skills in this thread agree with you that they are under-powered. Firebrands performance in both PvE and WvW at the minimum (where tomes are an integral part of the builds) would seem to contradict you on a daily game play basis.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    I know your whole point is using F2 - F3 will drop down dps. Compare to core guard and DH, yes I agree FB's F2 and F3 bring nothing good for dps especially if you use power build.(the longer FB stay on tomes, the worse for dps). But you must realize that A net defined FB as support-oriented spec, from your POV (damage dealer) yeah it is useless; from support's POV, these tomes are overpowered.

    So you don't have to complain about this "F2-3 is useless in comparison to vanilla-guard and DH" , because we all know that FB's not designed as pure dps spec. Condi build still have its space , but definitely not for power build.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Tormod the Fox.2368

    You can easily get into the tomes and quickly use 5+4 and then drop it, or get a reflect bubble, or whatever you need on FB, even on a Power Build, without losing much DPS, all while gaining a much greater benefit than core or DH Virtues provide.

    Tomes provide greater versatility and support for a slightly increased cost of opportunity if using them as DPS, while giving support builds free access to mass condi cleanse, healing and boon support.

    If you can't appreciate the Tomes, such as the ability to flip 25 conditions into boons while also increasing all received healing by 33% with one button press, you have no idea how to play FB properly, nor do you understand it's design.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    The above numbers say that Tomes are weak. If Anet got rid of the after-cast and doubled quickness from minor trait, maybe it would not be so weak, but then the support build would be even more powerful. You see, Anet has pigeon-holed themselves into a balancing issue. It goes beyond clunky.

    Writing out numbers doesn't demonstrate how clunky or weak Tome skills are. Any of the skills are as good as hot bar skills available, so they certainly aren't weak, especially considering you can stack any of them to get massive benefit.

    The 'clunky' isn't about cast times or animations or anything like that. Clunky is a terrible word to describe it. It's more about the redundancy of effects and uniform access, regardless of choices a player makes to use them.

    Let me describe a scenario that shows what I believe 'clunky' means. he ICD on the tomes are ... 30-50 seconds. The ICD on the skills in them ... much shorter. I think that's backwards. The TOME ICD should be short, the tome skill ICD should be long. Of course, that leads to other issues but if ICD durations were reversed, it would allow players to have more thoughtful use of the skills as needed without fear of being locked out. Anet missed that opportunity because they DIDN'T change the flavour of Tomes on FB ... they simply expanded what they already did without thinking how they would get used. They traded thoughtful play for ... bursts on stacked effects. I guess they just wanted to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • How does numbers and facts not show weakness? You guys have no logic. The above comparison of each Resolve skill shows that Tomes not only take longer but heal for less. It's also too situational which equals gimmicky. If one did not have the two condis CH. 2 does nothing; if using CH. 1 instead of CH. 2, then you heal for even less.

    You are arguing against facts. You might as well hit your head against a wall.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    You are arguing against facts. You might as well hit your head against a wall.

    That doesn't mean much. Just posting numbers/facts/whatever you want to call them doesn't demonstrate it's weak. Furthermore, the Tome has a context; indicating it's 'weak' implies you THINK you understand the context that Anet has granted these healing powers to the Tome. This thread shows you don't.

    But we have a good hint at the intent; just look at what the skills do. What we can tell is that FB F2 is about team healing and cleansing. Yes, it's situational, yes tomes have flaws but if you think it's 'weak' to cleanse and heal your team in this game the amounts available in F2, then it seems your experience isn't wide enough.

    THAT is why just posting numbers and facts doesn't show it's weak; context and intention.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    How does numbers and facts not show weakness? You guys have no logic. The above comparison of each Resolve skill shows that Tomes not only take longer but heal for less. It's also too situational which equals gimmicky. If one did not have the two condis CH. 2 does nothing; if using CH. 1 instead of CH. 2, then you heal for even less.

    You are arguing against facts. You might as well hit your head against a wall.

    Glad to see you back after getting banned.

    The fact is, you get 5-8 skill uses instead of one, and you seem to look at them from a very selfish point of view.
    Is Wing's of Resolve a great and convenient to use skill when running around alone, yes. Does it have some uses in high end content for clutch healing and reaching mechanics, yes.
    Does it absolutely pale in comparison to the team support that Tome of Resolve provides, also yes.

    Again, the Tome provides more healing, drastically more and party wide Condition Cleanse/Conversion and boon support in trade for a bigger time investment to get there.
    If you still can't grasp that then I don't really see a point in continuing this conversation.
    If you want to keep comparing a single Tome autoattack or skill with the purpose to cleanse conditions from the entire party on a 4 sec CD, with a single 30 Second CD high impact skill, then go ahead. But maybe stop lecturing people about "facts", if you don't understand the design and mechanics.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like the fact that fb is great support and ok damage.if u want dps use core guard,great damage and ok support or bit less dps burst but more mobility and ok support use dh. Seems like a good balance to me which is rare from arenet lol as a guard main I’m glad all guard elite specs aren’t great at everything or there’d be constant nurf posts like there is with mirage right now lol

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