[PvE] Quickbrand - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[PvE] Quickbrand

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  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Tormod the Fox.2368 said:
    All I did was say that F2-3 is useless in comparison to vanilla-guard and DH. Again, this can not be argued. Just because you want to defend Anet does not mean Anet is in the right. Their balance has been terrible ever since vanilla, and elite specs are coming out less polished and refined than when they were introduced.

    I'm afraid you posted that comment in the wrong thread given that I, while still a relatively new player, have been playing Core Guard since I made my Guardian (minus the 10 mins I spent testing DH to realize I didn't like it), and not only can it be argued, but you are simply, plainly, wrong.

    Are the tomes clunky? Yes they are. They take too long to open and stow, and that they work with ammunition but are tied to the tome going on cooldown when stowed is pretty silly. But useless? Incorrect hyperbole.

    As I stated in the first post, I played Core Guard Zeal/Virtues/Radiance so my F1-F3 was the best it was ever going to get in a group setting.

    You aren't talking about F1, which is fine, because I don't think it's at all useless. Yes, I miss being able to activate F1 before attacking for easy retaliation, but that's ok, I have Mantra of Solace to proc Healer's Retribution. Not ideal given the cooldown, but it's something. Also Tome 1 Chap 4 has been surprisingly helpful in dealing with the Birds instability, even running full power gear.

    F2 on core guard was an AoE cleanse with Virtues trait, and yes while I completely agree that it was way faster to just hit F2 and continue with the rotation, Tome 2 allows me to convert conditions to boons (!), as well a cleanse conditions; can also provide regen/vigor, but we're not camping F2.

    F3 arguably has it's best use in Chapter 5 as a prebuff, but you can also whip it out during a phase change (Ensolysis' bubble, etc). On Core Guard running virtues F3 gave Aegis to me/party, and was an aoe stunbreak, the latter is the only thing I really miss. But in fractals when the time came to skip / run, I used to have to quickly slot Retreat for swiftness/aegis, while now I can use F3 Chapt 1 and leave my utilities unchanged. And it's worth mentioning that simply opening/closing F3 grants Aegis.

    Are tomes clunky? Heck yeah. Let's not forget I'm in a fractal here, where my cooldowns are reset every time I activate a mistlock. But useless? Hardly.

    Which do I prefer? I honestly prefer Core Guard, but I'm running Quickbrand in fractals because 100% quickness uptime provides more of a contribution than I could ever deliver playing Core, and that seems to be the part people keep missing here: the role of the Quickbrand is to provide 100% quickness + DPS, in that order. Talking about whether FB does better damage with Condi or Power is less important to the conversation, given my contribution to the group is quickness. Had a power quickness build not been available, I wouldn't have bothered trying it since I love greatsword on Guard, and having to switch to axe/torch would have been a deal breaker.

    So for now, instead of relying on LFG for someone to bring quickness to my group, I have that covered, and plus my Druid friend, we just need to find 3 DPS who know what stacking is, and we clear T4/Recs effortlessly. In time this may change, be it with some strategic change (read gutting) like what Chrono saw, which is fine by me, since all I have to do is swap out my amulet and 2 rings and voila, back to Core Guard.

    I wouldn't mind if Tomes were reworked again; in my mind there should be no cooldown on open/stowing the tomes, only the chapters themselves should have a CD, so you could open F1, use Chapt 4, close it, then open it a few seconds later to use Chap 2, etc; but of all the professions that need addressing, I highly doubt Guard is at the top of the list, and given the representation it has in every game mode in the game, I also doubt if ANET even sees a problem.

  • I like how you are all arguing about semantics. I am saying the tomes are clunky. I am taking it a step further by calling it weak from being clunky.

    If they made one of the Grandmaster traits to change the function of F2+3 for Burn FB just like DareDevil's Grandmaster traits, then it would fix the issue. We should be talking about ways where they can fix tomes. WE all agree that they are clunky. Furthermore everyone keeps changing the subject to 'they are really good in this situation'. I am not talking about support. I am talking about burn FB...

  • If they wanted FB to be all about support, why did they make axe for condi?

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    I like how you are all arguing about semantics.

    You said they were useless. I said they are not. Hardly a debate on semantics.

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    I am talking about burn FB...

    And if this thread was discussing the merits / weaknesses of burn FB your comments would be helpful, but as this thread is discussing the power FB quickbrand support build, comments about burn FB don't really add much to the conversation.

    So you're making inaccurate and off topic points, and are surprised people are pushing back?

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Furthermore everyone keeps changing the subject

    No, that's really all you.

    Please, go ahead and create a thread about clunky tomes on burn FB.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Furthermore everyone keeps changing the subject

    No, that's really all you.

    Please, go ahead and create a thread about clunky tomes on burn FB.

    This thread was about pwr-quick brand. Everyone and their mother agrees this is pretty bad build choice. The conversation went towards burn FB because power is useless. I am not off topic.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    I like how you are all arguing about semantics. I am saying the tomes are clunky. I am taking it a step further by calling it weak from being clunky.

    If they made one of the Grandmaster traits to change the function of F2+3 for Burn FB just like DareDevil's Grandmaster traits, then it would fix the issue. We should be talking about ways where they can fix tomes. WE all agree that they are clunky. Furthermore everyone keeps changing the subject to 'they are really good in this situation'. I am not talking about support. I am talking about burn FB...

    So wait a minute a here. F2 and F3 are not weak just because they don't give you DPS as a burn FB. That's a disingenuous conclusion. Again, you are missing CONTEXT AND INTENT for those tomes. As far as cleansing and healing is concerned, F2 is really good and as far as buffing and support is concerned, F3 is also really good. They aren't weak at all. Don't confuse something that may not be useful in a situation as weak. That's not the correct conclusion to make here.

    No, in the situations where F2 and F3 are useful, they are NOT weak. They are rather good, if not OPed if it wasn't for the fact that access to them are severely limited by they tome ICD. I would even argue that they have good use as a burn FB, because being a burn FB doesn't exempt you from the things that the F2 and F3 skills fix or prevent.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tormod.5018Tormod.5018 Member ✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    Don't confuse something that may not be useful in a situation as weak

    You just contradicted yourself. Usefulness is strength or weakness. If Rune of Fire are less useful than Rune of Balthazar, then Rune of Fire is weak. This is logic. Furthermore, you already admitted the tomes are gimmicky.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    There is no contradiction. In the situations where they are applicable, F2 and F3 are good skills, not weak ones. Being limited to use does not make them weak, no more or less than any other skill that isn't infinitely useful in every situation. There is simply no correlation between what is useful given a situation and what is weak. If I need healing, a heal is useful always ... but amount it heals is what determines its strength.

    By your logic, as long as I don't need heals, ALL heals are weak. In fact, EVERY skill in the game is weak by that definition, because I can think of a situation where any particular skill is not needed. Therefore, that 'logic' as you call it makes no sense. You have to consider the context where that skill would be used to determine its strength; you aren't. If you don't have the comprehension skill to understand why strength and usefulness are not the same thing, there is no reason for us to continue the discussion.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tormod.5018Tormod.5018 Member ✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    Gimmicky: to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, especially in order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. So basically, it is a fallacy. Its so called 'strength' is a fallacy.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    By your logic, as long as I don't need heals, ALL heals are weak. In fact, EVERY skill in the game is weak by that definition, because I can think of a situation where any skill is not needed. That makes no sense. You have to consider the context where that skill would be used to determine its strength; you aren't. If you don't have the comprehension skill to understand why strength and usefulness are not the same thing, there is no reason for us to continue the discussion.

    I never said heals are weak. In comparison, it is weak to base Guard and Dragon Hunters skills. That is all.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    By your logic, as long as I don't need heals, ALL heals are weak. In fact, EVERY skill in the game is weak by that definition, because I can think of a situation where any skill is not needed. That makes no sense. You have to consider the context where that skill would be used to determine its strength; you aren't. If you don't have the comprehension skill to understand why strength and usefulness are not the same thing, there is no reason for us to continue the discussion.

    I never said heals are weak. In comparison, it is weak to base Guard and Dragon Hunters skills. That is all.

    I don't agree with that. FB F2 and F3 are more widely applicable (re. team) than core/DH versions. Most skills within the tomes are as significant in effect as the core/DH counterparts. Finally, I can also stack these equivalent skills within the FB tomes. That pretty much puts this 'weak' argument to bed.

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Gimmicky: to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, especially in order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. So basically, it is a fallacy. Its so called 'strength' is a fallacy.

    So every skill that I can find a situation where it's not applicable is weak? That makes no sense. I can literally do that for EVERY skill in the game. Again ... you are misusing the terms here. Strength is not an equivalent measure of usefulness. Strength of an effect is not a sliding scale determined by whether or not that skill is needed in a given situation. This isn't Schrodinger's cat. We know an effect can be strong or weak, EVEN in the event that it may not be necessary or even optimal at a particular time.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tormod.5018Tormod.5018 Member ✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    By your logic, as long as I don't need heals, ALL heals are weak. In fact, EVERY skill in the game is weak by that definition, because I can think of a situation where any skill is not needed. That makes no sense. You have to consider the context where that skill would be used to determine its strength; you aren't. If you don't have the comprehension skill to understand why strength and usefulness are not the same thing, there is no reason for us to continue the discussion.

    I never said heals are weak. In comparison, it is weak to base Guard and Dragon Hunters skills. That is all.

    I don't agree with that; FB F2 and F3 are more widely applicable than core/DH versions and most skills within the tomes as significant in effect as the core/DH counterparts. The fact that I can also stack these equivalent skills within the FB tomes puts this 'weak' argument to bed.

    So, I already compared using two skills from Tome of resolve which has already explained the weakness in comparison of other Resolve skills. In any other situation where you 'stack' all the skills in the tome, then your cast time would be even longer. This would equal even weaker state than in my example.

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Gimmicky: to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, especially in order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. So basically, it is a fallacy. Its so called 'strength' is a fallacy.

    You already admitted that the tomes were gimmicky. It was not in the same way I am saying they are gimmicky, but it is an addition to.

    If you would just admit that the F2+3 tomes are weak for a burn FB, then I will be on my marry way.

  • Maybe if they changed Grandmaster trait to change F2+3 for a burn FB, then they could do the same with another trait to make Pwr-quickness FBs more viable...

    I would like it if we had more choices...

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    By your logic, as long as I don't need heals, ALL heals are weak. In fact, EVERY skill in the game is weak by that definition, because I can think of a situation where any skill is not needed. That makes no sense. You have to consider the context where that skill would be used to determine its strength; you aren't. If you don't have the comprehension skill to understand why strength and usefulness are not the same thing, there is no reason for us to continue the discussion.

    I never said heals are weak. In comparison, it is weak to base Guard and Dragon Hunters skills. That is all.

    I don't agree with that; FB F2 and F3 are more widely applicable than core/DH versions and most skills within the tomes as significant in effect as the core/DH counterparts. The fact that I can also stack these equivalent skills within the FB tomes puts this 'weak' argument to bed.

    So, I already compared using two skills from Tome of resolve which has already explained the weakness in comparison of other Resolve skills. In any other situation where you 'stack' all the skills in the tome, then your cast time would be even longer. This would equal even weaker state than in my example.

    Really? Your argument that FB F2 and F3 is weak is based on cast times now? That makes no sense to me. Cast times don't make skills 'weak', no more than usefulness or gimmicky does. I think your point about cast times says more about points we have already agreed on; tomes are clunky. I can think of a scenario where a very strong skill it tied to a long cast time ... that doesn't make it a weak skill. Again, your misusing terms and confusing the issue.

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Gimmicky: to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, especially in order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. So basically, it is a fallacy. Its so called 'strength' is a fallacy.

    You already admitted that the tomes were gimmicky. It was not in the same way I am saying they are gimmicky, but it is an addition to.

    If you would just admit that the F2+3 tomes are weak for a burn FB, then I will be on my marry way.

    My goal here isn't to 'send you off'. I'm not going to admit something I don't believe just because you think I don't want you to post. I have no problem with our discussion thus far. By all means, I have no problem if you want to exhaust all the ways you can think of to associate weakness to everything else.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Okay, well if this argument is futile, let us just agree to disagree. We could find ways that we agree on still.

    Do you or do you not agree that axe was condi and part of FB was meant for condi and not support?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Okay, well if this argument is futile, let us just agree to disagree. We could find ways that we agree on still.

    Do you or do you not agree that axe was condi and part of FB was meant for condi and not support?

    I'm not sure it's that black and white. Clearly F1 is burning theme, only because it's so focused on burning. It's pretty clear that something so focused on burning isn't focused on support. That's not limited to FB either ... the same goes for core F1. You can pick any skill and say "oh that's a X skill, not a Y skill". That differentiation doesn't seem significant to me.

    Axe is the best condi weapon FB has. I think people refer to it generally as a condi weapon, but I think it's more applicable to recognize it as a hybrid weapon. When I think 'condi' weapons, I think Necro Scepter or Mesmer Scepter because they are just bad if you play them as anything BUT condi builds.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • You can't possibly think taking Axe as a support or full Power build would be viable. Therefore it can not be considered 'hybrid'. As you say Necro Scepter and Mesmer Scepter are condi weapons, so too is Guardian Axe.

    It is sure is versatile that it has condi, direct damage, and CC, but it would not be viable in any situation but a condi build. It must be considered condi. It can be confusing, since many Guardian weapons are versatile and are hybrids since they fit in many different types of builds.

  • If they wanted. They could make power FB work if one trait would make fire apply power damage instead of condi...

    Just like how changing F2+3 via a trait would make burning FB more viable.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    You can't possibly think taking Axe as a support or full Power build would be viable. Therefore it can not be considered 'hybrid'. As you say Necro Scepter and Mesmer Scepter are condi weapons, so too is Guardian Axe.

    It is sure is versatile that it has condi, direct damage, and CC, but it would not be viable in any situation but a condi build. It must be considered condi. It can be confusing, since many Guardian weapons are versatile and are hybrids since they fit in many different types of builds.

    I do, because I'm not a meta slave. You can't conclude it can't be considered hybrid; that's just your perspective on the matter.

    I can and I do, because like I said, it's not black or white; I don't view things as "good" or "not good" like you seem to. It's a spectrum and FB Axe isn't as far down the 'condi' spectrum as the examples I gave.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    You can't possibly think taking Axe as a support or full Power build would be viable. Therefore it can not be considered 'hybrid'. As you say Necro Scepter and Mesmer Scepter are condi weapons, so too is Guardian Axe.

    It is sure is versatile that it has condi, direct damage, and CC, but it would not be viable in any situation but a condi build. It must be considered condi. It can be confusing, since many Guardian weapons are versatile and are hybrids since they fit in many different types of builds.

    I do, because I'm not a meta slave. You can't conclude it can't be considered hybrid; that's just your perspective on the matter.

    I think I'm done here. I do not always play meta either. I do play a FB support in PvP, so I do think F2+3 are powerful and situational. But if you think Axe can be used other than condi, then there is really nothing to discuss. You obviously do not understand the game very well. I've been here since pre-launch vanilla.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    You can't possibly think taking Axe as a support or full Power build would be viable. Therefore it can not be considered 'hybrid'. As you say Necro Scepter and Mesmer Scepter are condi weapons, so too is Guardian Axe.

    It is sure is versatile that it has condi, direct damage, and CC, but it would not be viable in any situation but a condi build. It must be considered condi. It can be confusing, since many Guardian weapons are versatile and are hybrids since they fit in many different types of builds.

    I do, because I'm not a meta slave. You can't conclude it can't be considered hybrid; that's just your perspective on the matter.

    I think I'm done here. I do not always play meta either. I do play a FB support in PvP, so I do think F2+3 are powerful and situational. But if you think Axe can be used other than condi, then there is really nothing to discuss. You obviously do not understand the game very well. I've been here since pre-launch vanilla.

    Being here since pre-launch vanilla isn't a defacto high pedigree in understanding the game. If you don't think Axe can be played as a hybrid damage build or as part of a support build, I'm not sure how to respond to that. I don't see what would stop you from doing such a thing AND not being 'viable' doing it. In fact, I don't see a reason you can't play a support build AND set yourself up with hybrid damage using an Axe. I think that's just a lack of imagination on your part. For someone who doesn't prescribe to the ideas of playing meta, you sure talk like it.

    Just for some flavour, I think it's for the benefit of everyone that's 'played since pre-launch' and 'understands the game very well' to view this video to see what is 'viable', you know ... just to make sure that everyone who thinks you can play a FB axe/support isn't some kind of crazy noob that doesn't understand the game.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • If you think a 6+year veteran does not know what he is talking about, then you must have had poor experiences with others. I know I have, and it's pretty sad about the game and it's community.

    You can play Berserker mesmer with scepter. It doesn't mean it's effective.

  • I like how you use open world as an exampled of something 'good'...

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    You can play Berserker mesmer with scepter. It doesn't mean it's effective.

    How do you know if what's in the video isn't effective? You won't look at that video and see how a FB hybrid axe support build performs because you claim it's not viable. Indeed, we have lots of that '6+ year veteran' thinking going around here ... and not for the better.

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    I like how you use open world as an exampled of something 'good'...

    I like how I anticipated you wouldn't watch it ... the awesome part of that being is that the build he talks about is a slight variation on the current FB hybrid Axe support meta raid build ... the one you are claiming can't be viable. GG /thread.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Yes, I am watching the video. First minute in; he is using Viper's... You do realize vipers has condi right?

  • 6.5 minutes in. He says, this build is mostly condi. Seems like you are proving me right and yourself wrong.

  • The build actually is not support. It's damage in the form of support elements. It is the opposite of what we would call 'personal dps' or selfish dps like that of reaper necro which gives no buffs to party. The damage is coming from him and being transmitted through party...

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    Fun facts: You opened the garden path to argue that FB condi Axe support build isn't viable .... and it's meta. It's cute you are going to argue that's not a support build now ... if team-wide perma Fury and quickness doesn't count as support, I don't know what does. It's not like that build lost access to F2 or F3 either ....

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Watched the full video now, and I did not hear him touch F2 or 3 which probably means he does not use them at all... seems like you gave me proof for all of my points. Hey, thanks for that.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Watched the full video now, and I did not hear him touch F2 or 3 which probably means he does not use them at all... seems like you gave me proof for all of my points. Hey, thanks for that.

    So now we established you are just speculating he wouldn't use his F2/F3 skills if he needed them, I guess I will say ...

    No problem ... Him not talking about F2 or F3 doesn't mean that build isn't an Axe support build. Ah those meta people ... they are so clever. All about context and intent. You still don't get it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • So keeping quickness on others while doing dps makes him support? I like how you proved my point, and you are still willing to believe in a fallacy. It's quite funny actually.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    So keeping quickness on others while doing dps makes him support?

    Among other things the build can do that you want to ignore ...

    I guess you don't think it's support, sort of like how you don't think meta builds are viable.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tormod.5018Tormod.5018 Member ✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    6.5 minutes in. He says, this build is mostly condi. Seems like you are proving me right and yourself wrong.

    "This is mostly a condi build". Look the guy said it. You can do what you want with that info... You proved me right, and you are still trying to argue. That is even more sad than a knave 6+ year old vet which you tried to accuse me of being. You're now trying to blame me for things that I have never said like, "how you don't think meta builds are viable."

  • Tormod.5018Tormod.5018 Member ✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    You have shown me how these forums are just as bad as Reddit. Thank you. Oh and you can keep editting your old messages. It does not look cute.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    6.5 minutes in. He says, this build is mostly condi. Seems like you are proving me right and yourself wrong.

    "This is mostly a condi build". Look the guy said it. You can do what you want with that info... You proved me right, and you are still trying to argue. That is even more sad than a knave 6+ year old vet which you tried to accuse me of being. You're now trying to blame me for things that I have never said like, "how you don't think meta builds are viable."

    I don't understand your confusion; you want to argue semantics now. The fact is that the I'm showing you a build that uses Axe, buffs condition and direct damage and supports the team with highly desirable offensive buffs, in addition to the regular access it has to F2/F3. That's not only a viable build ... it's meta in raids and it's one of the best builds you can use in OW. How does that NOT meet the requirements for at a minimum, an effective/viable, hybrid Axe support build? You have a hang up over the term hybrid? No problem. Call it whatever you want then. It's still the same build we are talking about, no matter what you want to call it.

    The fact is that whatever argument that you are trying to make about the effectiveness of some build or skills on FB by establishing the separation between 'condi axe' and 'support' isn't supported by what can be done in the game. Your original claim you couldn't take Axe as a viable support build was wrong, and that video not only shows it, it demonstrates just how exceptionally GOOD an Axe support build is.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Keep editing those forum posts. It makes you look right and smart.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Keep editing those forum posts. It makes you look right and smart.

    The video shows that Axe Support builds are more than viable, they are meta ... contrary to your claim they weren't. I'm glad you watched it and learned something. Even at 6+ years, we don't all know everything about the game.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Tormod.5018Tormod.5018 Member ✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    I like how you said Axe can be support. His support elements are coming from runes, two traits, one utility, and an elite. Nothing from his axe is support. You are putting a lot of effort into a lost argument. How odd.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    I like how you said Axe can be support. His support elements are coming from runes, two traits, one utility, and an elite. Nothing from his axe is support. You are putting a lot of effort into a lost argument. How odd.

    I didn't say axe was a support weapon once. I said it can be used it in a support build, which is exactly what his video demonstrates. Nothing odd about the obvious. The argument was lost by you when you claimed an Axe Support build wasn't viable because I knew going into this it was meta.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Furthermore everyone keeps changing the subject

    No, that's really all you.

    Please, go ahead and create a thread about clunky tomes on burn FB.

    This thread was about pwr-quick brand. Everyone and their mother agrees this is pretty bad build choice. The conversation went towards burn FB because power is useless. I am not off topic.

    There is no question the power FB is weak, but condi FB is strong in PvE. The issues with condi FB are from PvP presepctive.

    While this thread is surely off topic, Tomes have issues. Major issues stemming from design and resulting in major gameplay limitations. Yet all Anet seems to be focused on is support effectiveness in PvP.

  • Tormod.5018Tormod.5018 Member ✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    I like how you said Axe can be support. His support elements are coming from runes, two traits, one utility, and an elite. Nothing from his axe is support. You are putting a lot of effort into a lost argument. How odd.

    I didn't say axe was a support weapon once. I said it can be used it in a support build, which is exactly what his video demonstrates. Nothing odd about the obvious. The argument was lost by you when you claimed an Axe Support build wasn't viable because I knew going into this it was meta.

    You keep a lost argument running. I do not know why. No one knows why. I never said 'build' we were talking purely about axe at the time. The axe in that build is used for damage not support. Stop calling it a support build. It is a dps build. It is quite obvious.

  • @otto.5684 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Furthermore everyone keeps changing the subject

    No, that's really all you.

    Please, go ahead and create a thread about clunky tomes on burn FB.

    This thread was about pwr-quick brand. Everyone and their mother agrees this is pretty bad build choice. The conversation went towards burn FB because power is useless. I am not off topic.

    There is no question the power FB is weak, but condi FB is strong in PvE. The issues with condi FB are from PvP presepctive.

    While this thread is surely off topic, Tomes have issues. Major issues stemming from design and resulting in major gameplay limitations. Yet all Anet seems to be focused on is support effectiveness in PvP.

    I agree, but I believe the same reason burning guard has issues in pvp is the same logic that I was trying to show. The cast time and CD time is just too much to be useful or effective. Sure, I wish Anet would give me a grandmaster trait to let me have just ToJ instead of all three tomes. I have already explained why I do not want all 3 tomes. It is clunky design. I do not think that they will take suggestions seriously though. Just my thoughts as a veteran.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Furthermore everyone keeps changing the subject

    No, that's really all you.

    Please, go ahead and create a thread about clunky tomes on burn FB.

    This thread was about pwr-quick brand. Everyone and their mother agrees this is pretty bad build choice. The conversation went towards burn FB because power is useless. I am not off topic.

    There is no question the power FB is weak, but condi FB is strong in PvE. The issues with condi FB are from PvP presepctive.

    While this thread is surely off topic, Tomes have issues. Major issues stemming from design and resulting in major gameplay limitations. Yet all Anet seems to be focused on is support effectiveness in PvP.

    I agree, but I believe the same reason burning guard has issues in pvp is the same logic that I was trying to show. The cast time and CD time is just too much to be useful or effective. Sure, I wish Anet would give me a grandmaster trait to let me have just ToJ instead of all three tomes. I have already explained why I do not want all 3 tomes. It is clunky design. I do not think that they will take suggestions seriously though. Just my thoughts as a veteran.

    My experience is sustainability is an issue for condi FB. You do need the other two tomes for sustain, but ToR tend to border on disadvantageous. And Anet continuously nerfs FB heal skills effectiveness instead of their heal scaling, which hit dps builds (already weak) the hardest. On top of this, condi damage as a whole has major issues that prevent it from being viable.

    I gave up on condi FB being effective in sPvP. At least I would like to see alternatives that FB can provide beside condi damage in PvE.

  • Tormod.5018Tormod.5018 Member ✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    Furthermore everyone keeps changing the subject

    No, that's really all you.

    Please, go ahead and create a thread about clunky tomes on burn FB.

    This thread was about pwr-quick brand. Everyone and their mother agrees this is pretty bad build choice. The conversation went towards burn FB because power is useless. I am not off topic.

    There is no question the power FB is weak, but condi FB is strong in PvE. The issues with condi FB are from PvP presepctive.

    While this thread is surely off topic, Tomes have issues. Major issues stemming from design and resulting in major gameplay limitations. Yet all Anet seems to be focused on is support effectiveness in PvP.

    I agree, but I believe the same reason burning guard has issues in pvp is the same logic that I was trying to show. The cast time and CD time is just too much to be useful or effective. Sure, I wish Anet would give me a grandmaster trait to let me have just ToJ instead of all three tomes. I have already explained why I do not want all 3 tomes. It is clunky design. I do not think that they will take suggestions seriously though. Just my thoughts as a veteran.

    My experience is sustainability is an issue for condi FB. You do need the other two tomes for sustain, but ToR tend to border on disadvantageous. And Anet continuously nerfs FB heal skills effectiveness instead of their heal scaling, which hit dps builds (already weak) the hardest. On top of this, condi damage as a whole has major issues that prevent it from being viable.

    I gave up on condi FB being effective in sPvP. At least I would like to see alternatives that FB can provide beside condi damage in PvE.

    Yet, in pvp, base Guard burning builds are still strong. So you see, when I compared all of the Resolve skills, it shows how Vanilla-Guard is strong versus burning FB. Thank you for being honest Otto. I do believe you are correct.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    If you think a 6+year veteran does not know what he is talking about, then you must have had poor experiences with others. I know I have, and it's pretty sad about the game and it's community.

    You can play Berserker mesmer with scepter. It doesn't mean it's effective.

    Considering you don't seem to care about other people's veteran status, why should we care about yours?

    Pre launch, 3 beta weekend, close to 1k hours on guardian, 1k+ LI, 1/3rd to Fractal God player here.

    Does this veteran status make my opinion in any way more or less valid than yours?

    People are disagreeing with you on the basis of what you write, which is both heavily pvp biased and often factually incorrect (see your poor first page comparison).

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019

    @Tormod.5018 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Tormod.5018 said:
    I like how you said Axe can be support. His support elements are coming from runes, two traits, one utility, and an elite. Nothing from his axe is support. You are putting a lot of effort into a lost argument. How odd.

    I didn't say axe was a support weapon once. I said it can be used it in a support build, which is exactly what his video demonstrates. Nothing odd about the obvious. The argument was lost by you when you claimed an Axe Support build wasn't viable because I knew going into this it was meta.

    You keep a lost argument running. I do not know why. No one knows why. I never said 'build' we were talking purely about axe at the time. The axe in that build is used for damage not support. Stop calling it a support build. It is a dps build. It is quite obvious.

    Let's be clear here ... YOU opened this line of discussion about the relationship between axe and support builds ... and have yet to provide any compelling evidence that shows your claim that you can't have an effective axe support build is true.

    I'm not discussing the aceademic correctness of applying labels here. What I know is that there are highly effective support builds using an axe with significant impact to performance and success, in both Raids and OW for the whole team; the video I posted shows that to be accurate.

    I also know that having lots of DPS doesn't EXCLUDE any build from providing significant levels of support and being known as such. You can call that build BOTH DPS and SUPPORT; those things are not exclusive. It's a matter of how a person plays it. Again, things here are not so black and white as you wish to portray them. Hey, you show a significant ability to simply make up whatever terms you want ... I suggest you expand vocabulary to to capture this idea of a DPS support build with whatever word you're comfortable with ... because they exist and aren't exceptional cases.

    There is no question as to why it's worth the effort to ensure the discussion makes clear what people are meaning and why they do so. If you don't find value in it, then it's strange you don't ask yourself why you participate in it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

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