Are black lion chests gambling?

Are they? You are paying cash to basically roll the dice with a small chance of a "jackspot". How is that different from a slot machine in a casino in principle?

You dont have to pay cash, I get free keys from story 10, 40 and 60 each week, rarely from completing maps and even rarer still from random mob.

That would depend on the definition of gambling in whatever jurisdiction you're in. It's not considered gambling in most.

The main difference is that you can win money from slot machines. You cannot win money from black lion chests.

The Keys can drop as loot from mobs (really rare), can be award for map completion, are reward for Finishing Personal Story Lvl 10 (Once a week), Lvl 40, lvl 60.You can buy gems with gold, so you are not forced to spend RL-Money.Furthermore its garuanteed that you get something (season depending item, black lion statuette, 2 common items + chance of a rare item) out of the chest, even though its necessarily/probably not the item you want.In addition the exclusive item often later are added to the black lion statuette vendor.

Just my opinion of course.

@Pifil.5193 said:That would depend on the definition of gambling in whatever jurisdiction you're in. It's not considered gambling in most.

The main difference is that you can win money from slot machines. You cannot win money from black lion chests.

I guess it does depend on your local law. I have heard that in a specific EU country they banned lootboxes from games that arent rated M as that would be basically minors gambling.I dont have a problem with BLC even if they are gambling because A-net in general are very pro-customer and are NOT a predators like EvilActually or Hacktivision.

Time is money, so technically anything with an RNG aspect that takes time is gambling.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Are they?

Yes.

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Are they?

I appreciate the brevity and accuracy of this answer.

Ecto-gambling is the undeniable gambling activity that GW2 has. You bet your ecto for a chance to win big ecto amounts.

The lion chests are a lot closer to raffles: buy a ticket, win a random price (whose monetary value could be below, or above the ticket's). If somebody sells their reward, can that be considered gambling, then? I suppose that'll be up to how each jurisdiction decides to write the law regarding it.

@Skotlex.7580 said:If somebody sells their reward, can that be considered gambling, then?

The amount of BLC drops that you can sell is limited.

@"Amaranthe.3578" said:Are they? You are paying cash to basically roll the dice with a small chance of a "jackspot". How is that different from a slot machine in a casino in principle?If they are officially gambling or legally gambling is a very interesting question at the moment. Officially in most countries they are not, but I ascribe that purely to the fact that when these laws were passed this sort of thing either didn't exist yet or was unknown to the lawmakers. That is changing now, particularly in the EU with Belgium and the Netherlands at the forefront. They are already making a point with some games from EA and 2K and some of their stuff has already been forbidden as it has been ruled gambling. This includes cosmetics by the way.

If you take the legal things aside however the black lion chests most certainly use the same principles that gambling does and it does have the ability to push people with more addictive personalities to spend and overspend. Sure you can earn some in game but that's not nearly enough to keep up and get some of those really rare items. Currently there is the Exalted Shoulders item that is a clear example of pushing gambling behavior since it's a random rare drop and it's account bound. That's about as bad as it gets with regards to these chests.

To be honest, the government agencies that regulate gambling in the EU have gotten together and are meeting regularly to come up with some EU wide policies and once they do I think GW2 will have to change some things as well, because it's pretty clear that the BLC's aren't any different from lootboxes. And the fact that you can earn some keys via gameplay is a poor excuse because you'll never be able to generate enough keys to get certain items unless you are extremely lucky.

There are some mitigating factors when it comes to ArenaNet. They're not as bad as many other games but also that doesn't really excuse this. It's a predatory form of revenue generation and it's only because it was under the radar of the governments who simply were unaware of this that it's become normalized. I think it's good that there has been a lot of anger about it since BF2, but all in all you have to wonder at things costing 10-20 bucks per item in a game you pay 60 bucks for. It clearly is overpriced. And I do have understanding for people who simply want to support the game and put extra money into it, but I think RNG items like this are of the devil. I tried BLC's and my conclusion is that yes they are lootboxes and once regulations are in place they will have to change. Sadly it will likely take laws because companies do not have the moral will to self-regulate. And that's where ArenaNet are no different than the rest. They may have convinced themselves that their cash shop is pretty fair but it's just not as bad as some other games.

Personally, I accept that this is what the current status is of things but I find myself increasingly stepping away from games that monetize like this. The new Anthem game that comes out in a few weeks is shaping up to have the same type of issues so I won't buy it if that ends up being the case. And well, I do understand running costs for ArenaNet so a little bit here or there I find acceptable to spend. But I also see the problem for people who have a hard time braking themselves in that. Addictive personalities are something that you get genetically. It's not a choice or a willpower thing. And especially in a teen rated game, I will be happy to see RNG rewards disappearing entirely from anything you can spend real money on. But also things like promotions where certain items are only available for short times and not knowing when they will come back are part of a very nefarious system of money making. It's manipulative and preys on weaknesses that people may have. When ArenaNet staff read this (if indeed they do) they might find my wording harsh or confrontational, but the reality is there. What I say is true, but because it's become common practice, it gives people the idea it's normal and okay. Well it's not.

And it's because companies are too greedy to self-regulate, that laws are coming, at least in the EU and some countries already have them. Because the truth is that kids who learn these addictive patterns are bad for the economy as a whole and because when it is considered gambling then of course the tax man wants his cut as well. I think it's fair to be a little bit milder towards ArenaNet but the bottom line is that their cash shop does use manipulative methods to increase sales and these methods do unfortunately exploit particularly people who are susceptible to this. At least with direct sales you know what you're getting, with RNG, you have no idea whether you'll get it at all. And finally, the point that a lot of stuff is cosmetic doesn't change anything. That's a weird idea that a lot of people have. This game is called Dress up Wars or whatever for a reason. Cosmetics are a big deal and that's what they're taking advantage of. But I do think the gaming industry as a whole has simply not been able to self-regulate. So as much as I prefer fewer regulations in general, this is clearly a situation where they will only have themselves to thank for them.

I would really like ArenaNet to pull RNG from their gem store. I'd be the right thing to do. RNG can exist in the game but not in a cash shop. From a moral or ethical point of view you can't really defend them, particularly in a game rated for minors and they should be classed as gambling. That's my take on it at least. Anyone is free to have their views of course.

Yes, they are.

@Linken.6345 said:You dont have to pay cash, I get free keys from story 10, 40 and 60 each week, rarely from completing maps and even rarer still from random mob.

Yeah and sitting on 20 blc's or more. I was never a fan of lootboxes in games, esp after the fiasco that was EA. Some countries are banning them because they are considered a form of gambling. And they are when you think about it.

They are but with a loophole, the guaranteed items you receive (which were recently implemented, lots of other games started to do that too) like statuettes and festive stuff are actually a measure game companies are putting in order to avoid being cataloged as gambling. As long as you are getting a guaranteed item (NOT opening the chest and ending up with nothing), it is supposedly NOT gambling/a game of chance. If someone somewhere decided to sue ANET on selling gambling to minors because Timmy stole mommy's credit card and bought $700 in black lion chest keys because he wants those sweet exalted pauldrons, ANET would simply say they're selling stattuetes with a chance of getting something else. Legally, you are basically buying chests for statuettes.

And yet another BLC gambling topic... Will be good to use the search function in the forum to research and see the previous conversations, this one will be no different

A post I made in another thread covers what I was able to find about what countries consider lootboxes to be gambling:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/810732/#Comment_810732

short version: only Belgium does, considers this gambling & they don't distinguish between the intended predatory practices of mobile games vs milder forms (such as BL Chests in GW2). Regulators in many countries have said that they plan to do something, but there are no concrete steps taken one way or the others. The relevant US regulators haven't started the process. The UK regulators have (and said it's not gambling), but they appear willing to reconsider.

even shorter version: no, not according to the laws in most countries; that could change.

I don't care whether BLC's and other loot boxes are gambling or not. As a business practice, they are designed with one intent, to get consumers to spend more money on a desired virtual item than they would be willing to spend without the random aspect. Thus, I don't support ANet's use of their particular version of the loot box practice, with cash or with gold. This is true for me despite ANet's version of loot boxes lacking the in-game advantage found in some other games.

Black Lion Chests/Keys are definitely loot boxes. Regardless of not "having" to pay cash for gems to unlock keys, you can pay cash. There is a random element in BLC opening. Typical users will consider themselves to have "won" or "lost" depending on outcomes. Most importantly, loot box use can trigger the same dopamine response as other activities which are nearly-universally recognized as gambling. That physiological reaction can lead to a desire to repeat, which can lead to addiction in some cases. BLC opening offers that same experience.

Calling the loot box business practice "gambling" has provided those who favor regulation with a rationale, because gambling is already regulated in most jurisdictions. The other side will of course defend loot boxes based on whether the practice meets the local/national definition. At this point, the loot box issue is married to the gambling debate, with no divorce in sight. There will be no meeting of the minds on this issue. Developers will hold on to their cash cow as long as possible. Defense of the practice by some consumers will continue as long as the debate goes on. Attempts at regulation may succeed, or they may fade away over time.

I'm going to ignore the semantics and just say that if I expend resources to receive a random item, that is what I consider gambling. It doesn't matter to me that I'm guaranteed to get 'something', it is the randomness of it all that qualifies the label imo.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I'm going to ignore the semantics and just say that if I expend resources to receive a random item, that is what I consider gambling. It doesn't matter to me that I'm guaranteed to get 'something', it is the randomness of it all that qualifies the label imo.A big part of the larger discussion revolves around the legal definition. It is of course gambling but legally it is not classified as gambling. At least not yet. The way I see it that's largely due to lawmakers either being unaware of what happens in this games or these practices not existing yet when the laws were made originally. Now that regulatory offices have become aware of them thanks to EA's BF2 debacle this is definitely changing in the EU. Belgium is the clearest example, but also in the Netherlands some games have been forbidden of using their version of loot boxes and there is a mix of individual countries doing investigations like Finland and about 15 regulatory organs working together on a larger investigation to come out with a shared policy. This all started last year already.

@Gehenna.3625 said:A big part of the larger discussion revolves around the legal definition.

Depends on your perspective. I don't believe in gambling as a rule, and as BL Chests fit my definition of gambling, I choose to not support that practice with my resources. But I have no problem with other people choosing to do so, nor do I support an initiative that would remove their freedom of choice.

As annoying as it is for me to stand behind 10 people at the service counter at the grocery store as they turn in their lottery tickets, knowing that in all probability, none of them will win any money of any consequence ever, I also remind myself that if those same people weren't voluntarily donating their money to the government, I would have to deal with higher taxes.

In that same vein, if people want to gamble their money on BL chests, and through that ANET can continue to release new content for free, why should I be opposed?

Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh)

I am not so much a fan of RNG boxes, but here is a little perspective:

Is RNG loot from a raid boss gambling?

BLC are in a grey area because of the guaranteed drops. That said, I regularly buy keys - which is my way to support the game. Better to buy some keys when I feel like it, than some monthly fee...

@"Amaranthe.3578" said:Are they? You are paying cash to basically roll the dice with a small chance of a "jackspot". How is that different from a slot machine in a casino in principle?

In fact a slot machine in a casino is gambling too.

@kharmin.7683 said:Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh)

It fits with a certain country lazily dumping the issue under gambling regulations :p