Civil Discussion: Changing Marked Effect for Both Sides of Play-style — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Civil Discussion: Changing Marked Effect for Both Sides of Play-style

First and foremost let me address the sides of play-style that are in question.

  • Stealth lovers that would do such things listed below
  • Stealth haters that would complain/show great distaste for those utilizing such mechanics such as stealth.

  • What we know is that the patch @ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60248/game-update-notes-november-13-2018#latest has brought some styles of stealth play-styles to their knees while making some other forms of play easier and able to detect easier. However those that enjoy veiling / entering stealth to get behind enemy lines or even those that used to scout have either stopped playing wvwvw or moved on from the game altogether or even stopped the classes they have enjoyed playing.

What are some suggestions that would appease both sides of play that could bring those players, that stopped playing, back to the game and at the same time still make it easier for those players that are against such stealth play?** Please leave your suggestions while staying on topic and explaining your reasoning. Be open to criticism and do NOT post low effort replies** If you can not post here, just pm me in game and I will post your suggestions here as an edit.

1. OP suggestion is: Make the marked effect from sentries/towers an upgrade in specific tier that could effect players as it does currently...however, would still allow players utilizing stealth to enjoy their play-style.

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Comments

  • HazyDaisy.4107HazyDaisy.4107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm OK with whoever gets marked by one of my traps, I dont discriminate.

    But, since I had a blonde moment last night opening 250 skirmish chests and clicking traps and tricks instead of tactics, I sincerely apologize for any pain and misery that may befall those who trigger one of these ample traps over the course of the cleansing process.

    [HaHa] Hazardous Hallucination - Sorrows Furnace

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Regular roamers that actually want to try to cap the towers are alot more hurt by the existance of cheap automatic scouting than some random thief being helpless without stealth. Your entire premise for making changes to it is wrong.

    hey i can also abuse stealth and cap towers!
    but you are right being visible on the opponents map has a much greater effect than getting revealed in combat.
    however regardless if you think being visible on the opponents map or affected in your fight by it is worse, reducing overall marked would help smaller groups/roamers.

    i can still as voltekka said abuse my stealth to the fullest in most parts of the map, enough to make me still choose my deadeye over my mirage for roaming. there are many encounters that are easier on mirage but every mirage build has downsides that IMO outweight the ones of a deadeye. mostly 'low' sustain for glassy builds (for outnumbered fights where deadeye simply can survive among an indefinite amount of opponents) and low pressure for tankier condi builds and something in between has a bit of both.

    while i dislike the marked mechanic it would be good to know the reason behind the changes to make an alternative suggestion. was it to combat stealth in general instead of making another deadeye rework? in that case it doesnt work and should be looked into. or is anet ok with stealth just dont want people to sit in opposing keeps/towers all day long making their opponents spamm tickets? in that case i wish they did something without involving marked so it leaves the option to reduce/remove overall marked.

  • Emi.4152Emi.4152 Member ✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:
    some styles of stealth play-styles to their knees

    The style of only fighting around enemy sentries and near ballooned enemy towers?

    Man, thieves are weird.

    A civil discussion is pretty pointless when there is no issue. Regardless of being stealthed or not, a player is still visible on the map - the only difference between someone with stealth and someone without stealth... the player with stealth can still walk out of it and stealth. The player without cant, because they - surprisingly - dont have stealth. +1 for stealth.

    If you make your build so much around stealth and glass ganking to the point you cant survive without it within sentry range or towers... well you did that on purpose didnt you? And you know exactly why you did it. Accept the consequences.

    The level of sheer arrogance spilling out from that post is amazing :open_mouth:

    There are builds that just use stealth on and off. The worst affected is probably dp dash daredevil, that literally only stealths to get access to the burst.

    That said, deadeye needs to be gutted. my god

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't understand why people complain about sentrytowers marking small roaming groups. Most towers can be safely catapulted from outside watchtower range. Once the wall is down small groups can usually get the lord down quick and cap before the zerg shows up.

  • HazyDaisy.4107HazyDaisy.4107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    I don't understand why people complain about sentrytowers marking small roaming groups.

    Because the complainers are not in those small roaming groups and see that argument as good for their agenda for getting rid of marking (and any other tactics) that do affect the large and less conspicuous bag collecting blobs these guys most likely run with.

    Afterall, It's hard to look for fights when 50 red dots tell the map you're only looking for ppt.

    [HaHa] Hazardous Hallucination - Sorrows Furnace

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    I don't understand why people complain about sentrytowers marking small roaming groups. Most towers can be safely catapulted from outside watchtower range. Once the wall is down small groups can usually get the lord down quick and cap before the zerg shows up.

    while you can attack most towers from out of their mark range it still limits your options and it also reduces the amount of people that will check objectives when they are contested. its a huge difference to fight with a couple people that have noticed you/your group or bein shown to the entire map.
    and might be doing it solo, i can build a cata solo outisde that range, open the tower and fight the lord. while i think i am doing it at a decent speed for a roaming build i am pretty sure you can get there in time. sure you could now say that solo roaming shouldnt matter, but then half the threads on this forum matter as much ;)

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    I don't understand why people complain about sentrytowers marking small roaming groups. Most towers can be safely catapulted from outside watchtower range. Once the wall is down small groups can usually get the lord down quick and cap before the zerg shows up.

    while you can attack most towers from out of their mark range it still limits your options and it also reduces the amount of people that will check objectives when they are contested. its a huge difference to fight with a couple people that have noticed you/your group or bein shown to the entire map.
    and might be doing it solo, i can build a cata solo outisde that range, open the tower and fight the lord. while i think i am doing it at a decent speed for a roaming build i am pretty sure you can get there in time. sure you could now say that solo roaming shouldnt matter, but then half the threads on this forum matter as much ;)

    I can see it being a problen when having to solo lords. I roam on ele and have found myself in that situation myself since it is a slow koll. This is why I was talking about smaller groups that can take down a lord faster than a zerg can due to scaling.

    The sentrytower mechanic can in some cases benefit the group hitting it from outside marked range by people thinking it was just a tag, cause they see no dots. Or them sending 1 person in so it looks like a tag.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    Maybe make unveiled mechanics (Watchtowers etc.) apply to all players around (friend or foe). And let it pulse -> 5 seconds revealed -> 10 seconds no effect -> 5 seconds revealed . . . and so on. I also liked the idea, that it doesn't completely unveal, but only shows blurred shapes of a still mainly transparent enemy.

  • Without putting me down try to stay on topic some of you the rest of your actually giving some good input to what I was suggesting earlier as an alternative. What I was trying to stake was that the reason behind having the revealed near the towers kind of outweighs the reason to attack it in the first place some people only like to go in on low amounts because the scaling alone helps you take Towers easier. But flipping was playstyle all in itself and now you can't even flip because of the tower preventing you from sneaking inside or a Mesmer being able to sneak inside and Port his buddies in because it takes longer than 2 seconds to get to a good spot or you can still get a good amount of people inside. Here is another example ..group a is getting inside group B's Tower by brute-forcing but Group C wants to sneak inside behind Group A to attack them and steal the tower for themselves... this will be extremely difficult considering if anyone wants to sneak in under a veil they would be immediately revealed after 2 seconds

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    @Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:
    Without putting me down try to stay on topic some of you the rest of your actually giving some good input to what I was suggesting earlier as an alternative. What I was trying to stake was that the reason behind having the revealed near the towers kind of outweighs the reason to attack it in the first place some people only like to go in on low amounts because the scaling alone helps you take Towers easier. But flipping was playstyle all in itself and now you can't even flip because of the tower preventing you from sneaking inside or a Mesmer being able to sneak inside and Port his buddies in because it takes longer than 2 seconds to get to a good spot or you can still get a good amount of people inside. Here is another example ..group a is getting inside group B's Tower by brute-forcing but Group C wants to sneak inside behind Group A to attack them and steal the tower for themselves... this will be extremely difficult considering if anyone wants to sneak in under a veil they would be immediately revealed after 2 seconds

    The veil only lasts 2 seconds anyhow (3 with trait in chaos traitline selected). Most organized smallscale groups would have 1 mesmer with mass invis, Make targeted apply revealed after 4-5 seconds I am fine with that.

    Feels your issue is less with the targeted debuff and more with targeted applying revealed.

  • @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:
    Without putting me down try to stay on topic some of you the rest of your actually giving some good input to what I was suggesting earlier as an alternative. What I was trying to stake was that the reason behind having the revealed near the towers kind of outweighs the reason to attack it in the first place some people only like to go in on low amounts because the scaling alone helps you take Towers easier. But flipping was playstyle all in itself and now you can't even flip because of the tower preventing you from sneaking inside or a Mesmer being able to sneak inside and Port his buddies in because it takes longer than 2 seconds to get to a good spot or you can still get a good amount of people inside. Here is another example ..group a is getting inside group B's Tower by brute-forcing but Group C wants to sneak inside behind Group A to attack them and steal the tower for themselves... this will be extremely difficult considering if anyone wants to sneak in under a veil they would be immediately revealed after 2 seconds

    The veil only lasts 2 seconds anyhow (3 with trait in chaos traitline selected). Most organized smallscale groups would have 1 mesmer with mass invis, Make targeted apply revealed after 4-5 seconds I am fine with that.

    Feels your issue is less with the targeted debuff and more with targeted applying revealed.

    what about thieves trying to apply the stealth to groups without a mesmer with veil? I understand there are roles thieves can play for groupwise effort but why should they not have the ability to provide the smokefields and blasts too? seems like were trying to have forced roles in wvw. maybe if there was long stealth away from twoers and as we get close, let stealth come off, veil then get to the group?

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    @Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:
    Without putting me down try to stay on topic some of you the rest of your actually giving some good input to what I was suggesting earlier as an alternative. What I was trying to stake was that the reason behind having the revealed near the towers kind of outweighs the reason to attack it in the first place some people only like to go in on low amounts because the scaling alone helps you take Towers easier. But flipping was playstyle all in itself and now you can't even flip because of the tower preventing you from sneaking inside or a Mesmer being able to sneak inside and Port his buddies in because it takes longer than 2 seconds to get to a good spot or you can still get a good amount of people inside. Here is another example ..group a is getting inside group B's Tower by brute-forcing but Group C wants to sneak inside behind Group A to attack them and steal the tower for themselves... this will be extremely difficult considering if anyone wants to sneak in under a veil they would be immediately revealed after 2 seconds

    The veil only lasts 2 seconds anyhow (3 with trait in chaos traitline selected). Most organized smallscale groups would have 1 mesmer with mass invis, Make targeted apply revealed after 4-5 seconds I am fine with that.

    Feels your issue is less with the targeted debuff and more with targeted applying revealed.

    what about thieves trying to apply the stealth to groups without a mesmer with veil? I understand there are roles thieves can play for groupwise effort but why should they not have the ability to provide the smokefields and blasts too? seems like were trying to have forced roles in wvw. maybe if there was long stealth away from twoers and as we get close, let stealth come off, veil then get to the group?

    They can still blast smoke fields and such, it is just more difficult to get the full duration of stealth before being revealed. I'm just trying to be realistic and an on the go cast mass invis will be much easier to use than blasting smokefileds. I was talking about organized groups, which most likely then will have 1-2 mesmers, while an unorganized group would not bother blasting smokefields in the first case.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Emi.4152 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:
    some styles of stealth play-styles to their knees

    The style of only fighting around enemy sentries and near ballooned enemy towers?

    Man, thieves are weird.

    A civil discussion is pretty pointless when there is no issue. Regardless of being stealthed or not, a player is still visible on the map - the only difference between someone with stealth and someone without stealth... the player with stealth can still walk out of it and stealth. The player without cant, because they - surprisingly - dont have stealth. +1 for stealth.

    If you make your build so much around stealth and glass ganking to the point you cant survive without it within sentry range or towers... well you did that on purpose didnt you? And you know exactly why you did it. Accept the consequences.

    The level of sheer arrogance spilling out from that post is amazing :open_mouth:

    There are builds that just use stealth on and off. The worst affected is probably dp dash daredevil, that literally only stealths to get access to the burst.

    That said, deadeye needs to be gutted. my god

    Thank you for the compliment, I found it fitting for a thread talking about both sides then only working from the helping thieves to stealth more perspective.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • I would like it if the marked range from watch tower had a circular radius. Right now it has a very irregular shape to cover the tower's portion of the map. This will nerf the marked area a bit and make it easier for roamers to set up long range catapults.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Celestial Herald & Power Reaper

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:
    Without putting me down try to stay on topic some of you the rest of your actually giving some good input to what I was suggesting earlier as an alternative. What I was trying to stake was that the reason behind having the revealed near the towers kind of outweighs the reason to attack it in the first place some people only like to go in on low amounts because the scaling alone helps you take Towers easier. But flipping was playstyle all in itself and now you can't even flip because of the tower preventing you from sneaking inside or a Mesmer being able to sneak inside and Port his buddies in because it takes longer than 2 seconds to get to a good spot or you can still get a good amount of people inside. Here is another example ..group a is getting inside group B's Tower by brute-forcing but Group C wants to sneak inside behind Group A to attack them and steal the tower for themselves... this will be extremely difficult considering if anyone wants to sneak in under a veil they would be immediately revealed after 2 seconds

    The veil only lasts 2 seconds anyhow (3 with trait in chaos traitline selected). Most organized smallscale groups would have 1 mesmer with mass invis, Make targeted apply revealed after 4-5 seconds I am fine with that.

    Feels your issue is less with the targeted debuff and more with targeted applying revealed.

    4s are alot to reposition and it would allow stealth to run out without reveal, that would reduce the effect of marked vs stealthed alot. not sure how good it then still is at getting a deadeye out of the tower/keep, i think you will then still need to outnumber them by ALOT as you will just see him popping up in a dodgeroll animation here and there. i am not opposed to this, but i know that there will be again 'deadeye in my keep'-threads.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I would like it if the marked range from watch tower had a circular radius. Right now it has a very irregular shape to cover the tower's portion of the map. This will nerf the marked area a bit and make it easier for roamers to set up long range catapults.

    It is circular radius as fas as I know, unless you're on DBL where towers are so god kitten large they require multiple balloons (which would give an irregular shape).

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stealth should not be an long effect out side of making it no longer stack in duration this is a good mid grone of an effect. But i am all for taking out mark effect for stealth no longer stacking.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:
    Without putting me down try to stay on topic some of you the rest of your actually giving some good input to what I was suggesting earlier as an alternative. What I was trying to stake was that the reason behind having the revealed near the towers kind of outweighs the reason to attack it in the first place some people only like to go in on low amounts because the scaling alone helps you take Towers easier. But flipping was playstyle all in itself and now you can't even flip because of the tower preventing you from sneaking inside or a Mesmer being able to sneak inside and Port his buddies in because it takes longer than 2 seconds to get to a good spot or you can still get a good amount of people inside. Here is another example ..group a is getting inside group B's Tower by brute-forcing but Group C wants to sneak inside behind Group A to attack them and steal the tower for themselves... this will be extremely difficult considering if anyone wants to sneak in under a veil they would be immediately revealed after 2 seconds

    The veil only lasts 2 seconds anyhow (3 with trait in chaos traitline selected). Most organized smallscale groups would have 1 mesmer with mass invis, Make targeted apply revealed after 4-5 seconds I am fine with that.

    Feels your issue is less with the targeted debuff and more with targeted applying revealed.

    4s are alot to reposition and it would allow stealth to run out without reveal, that would reduce the effect of marked vs stealthed alot. not sure how good it then still is at getting a deadeye out of the tower/keep, i think you will then still need to outnumber them by ALOT as you will just see him popping up in a dodgeroll animation here and there. i am not opposed to this, but i know that there will be again 'deadeye in my keep'-threads.

    I have nothing against deadeye stealthing for shorter periods of time like some other thief builds. The 4-5 second timer for revealed would stop the long durations of stealthing which is the unfun part for me. Is nice to see the enemy once every 5 seconds instead of once every 10-15^^

  • Dagger.2035Dagger.2035 Member ✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    I guess they are massive circles, I've just never bothered to walk the border before. I still feel like the range could be shorted by 20-25%

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Celestial Herald & Power Reaper

  • Celsith.2753Celsith.2753 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Regular roamers that actually want to try to cap the towers are alot more hurt by the existance of cheap automatic scouting than some random thief being helpless without stealth. Your entire premise for making changes to it is wrong.

    You are quite right, but, why should a thief be automatically prevented from trying to aid their world by actually doing meaningful havok? If I have a thief with my group I hear, 'watchtower, afk'. You realize that the marked buff as it currently stands pretty much means that the ONLY thing thieves can do is sit at peoples' spawn and gank? Is this really what people intended?

    For all small groups sake i'd like to see watchtower range reduced, marked gone from sentries and the ability to stealth for 4s without reveal being automatic. It's ludicrous that the majority of stealth abilities on the classes that have them are 3s long and going to give them that reveal.

    Edit: Actually ideally i'd like to see watchtower moved to keeps only. Then you'd know if your keep was tapped or a zerg and if it was a t3 tactic youd actually have to make a meaningful choice instead of the buff aura tactic being a no brainer. Sentries could keep marked then. Put charr car as an option on towers instead, things far too cool to be stuck on camps.

    885k+ WvW kills
    Diamond No Life
    [HUNT] Predatory Instinct

  • @Celsith.2753 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Regular roamers that actually want to try to cap the towers are alot more hurt by the existance of cheap automatic scouting than some random thief being helpless without stealth. Your entire premise for making changes to it is wrong.

    You are quite right, but, why should a thief be automatically prevented from trying to aid their world by actually doing meaningful havok? If I have a thief with my group I hear, 'watchtower, afk'. You realize that the marked buff as it currently stands pretty much means that the ONLY thing thieves can do is sit at peoples' spawn and gank? Is this really what people intended?

    For all small groups sake i'd like to see watchtower range reduced, marked gone from sentries and the ability to stealth for 4s without reveal being automatic. It's ludicrous that the majority of stealth abilities on the classes that have them are 3s long and going to give them that reveal.

    Edit: Actually ideally i'd like to see watchtower moved to keeps only. Then you'd know if your keep was tapped or a zerg and if it was a t3 tactic youd actually have to make a meaningful choice instead of the buff aura tactic being a no brainer. Sentries could keep marked then. Put charr car as an option on towers instead, things far too cool to be stuck on camps.

    this is what i was getting at. classes that relied on stealth cant really do what they used to prior to the marked change. If stealthing long durations was the issue then it should be handled by changing Shadow Meld to something different or reducing the effect of marked...Personally, i dislike Shadow Meld, maybe we can make it where it has a small window that PREVENTS reveal for a set amount of time like an irremovable buff and will NOT stealth you after using it. This would benefit those wanting stealth and wanting to stay in it...but still revolves around staying in stealth and CHOOSING to stay in it for scouting etc. If someone uses shadow meld (the new suggestion) then goes stealth to attack will force people to adjust their gameplay. choose to hide, stay hidden or choose to engage

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Regular roamers that actually want to try to cap the towers are alot more hurt by the existance of cheap automatic scouting than some random thief being helpless without stealth. Your entire premise for making changes to it is wrong.

    You are quite right, but, why should a thief be automatically prevented from trying to aid their world by actually doing meaningful havok? If I have a thief with my group I hear, 'watchtower, afk'. You realize that the marked buff as it currently stands pretty much means that the ONLY thing thieves can do is sit at peoples' spawn and gank? Is this really what people intended?

    For all small groups sake i'd like to see watchtower range reduced, marked gone from sentries and the ability to stealth for 4s without reveal being automatic. It's ludicrous that the majority of stealth abilities on the classes that have them are 3s long and going to give them that reveal.

    Edit: Actually ideally i'd like to see watchtower moved to keeps only. Then you'd know if your keep was tapped or a zerg and if it was a t3 tactic youd actually have to make a meaningful choice instead of the buff aura tactic being a no brainer. Sentries could keep marked then. Put charr car as an option on towers instead, things far too cool to be stuck on camps.

    Different classes, different purposes. If you bring 10 thieves to cap a watchtowered tower, you're doing it wrong.

    Also it does not stop them from doing anything. Under the watchtower, they are marked just as everybody else. They cant work as effectivly? Well neither can other classes. Only the necro can decently mark walls. Only the ele/ranger can meteor shower/barrage arrowcarts. Glass cannons die to defensive fire regardless of what class they are on, regardless of having stealth or not. Most thieves will be built for damage because that's what they want to do, that's why they picked thief. Complaining that there are flaws when assaulting towers is pointless.

    Because different classes, different purposes. That's how an RPG works. You still have stealth on the other 90% of the map.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Celsith.2753Celsith.2753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Also it does not stop them from doing anything. Under the watchtower, they are marked just as everybody else. They cant work as effectivly? Well neither can other classes. Only the necro can decently mark walls. Only the ele/ranger can meteor shower/barrage arrowcarts. Glass cannons die to defensive fire regardless of what class they are on, regardless of having stealth or not. Most thieves will be built for damage because that's what they want to do, that's why they picked thief. Complaining that there are flaws when assaulting towers is pointless.

    Because different classes, different purposes. That's how an RPG works. You still have stealth on the other 90% of the map.

    I don't know about anyone else but when I started playing thief it was perfectly viable for havok, I did it for YEARS. Saying someone shouldn't have rolled a class 5 years ago because watchtowers then target painter gets added years later? Ok don't play guardian incase in 5 years they change it into a ranged dps class. Don't play warrior incase in 5 years they decide stances don't work near any enemy structure or anywhere a no stance trap is placed - or thrown. Ridiculous.

    Stealth on 90% of the map? Do you know how long range watchtowers and sentries are? The only way you are avoiding them is... to gank at spawn or between smc and a keep. Which thieves seem to do a lot of now hence the complaints. The entire point of what I was saying, was to point out that thieves have been pigeonholed into the role everyone cries about. If you can't understand this, go participate in actual goaled groups on a thief then on a mirage, holo, soulbeast and gain a better understanding of just why all the thieves are sitting at your spawn killing slow zerglings.

    885k+ WvW kills
    Diamond No Life
    [HUNT] Predatory Instinct

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Instead of auto reveal, when you are within 1200 range of a marked (your server sourced) enemy player in stealth your action key becomes available and when pressed causes reveal after 3 seconds.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @Celsith.2753 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Also it does not stop them from doing anything. Under the watchtower, they are marked just as everybody else. They cant work as effectivly? Well neither can other classes. Only the necro can decently mark walls. Only the ele/ranger can meteor shower/barrage arrowcarts. Glass cannons die to defensive fire regardless of what class they are on, regardless of having stealth or not. Most thieves will be built for damage because that's what they want to do, that's why they picked thief. Complaining that there are flaws when assaulting towers is pointless.

    Because different classes, different purposes. That's how an RPG works. You still have stealth on the other 90% of the map.

    I don't know about anyone else but when I started playing thief it was perfectly viable for havok, I did it for YEARS. Saying someone shouldn't have rolled a class 5 years ago because watchtowers then target painter gets added years later? Ok don't play guardian incase in 5 years they change it into a ranged dps class. Don't play warrior incase in 5 years they decide stances don't work near any enemy structure or anywhere a no stance trap is placed - or thrown. Ridiculous.

    So? We all did it for YEARS. On all classes. Without being marked.

    And now we're all marked as soon as we step foot in range of something. Are you saying that we shouldnt have rolled any classes because sentries, watchtowers and target painters gets added years later? Ridiculous.

    Saying that thief suddenly cant havoc is really treating them like a special snowflake.

    Stealth on 90% of the map? Do you know how long range watchtowers and sentries are? The only way you are avoiding them is... to gank at spawn or between smc and a keep. Which thieves seem to do a lot of now hence the complaints. The entire point of what I was saying, was to point out that thieves have been pigeonholed into the role everyone cries about. If you can't understand this, go participate in actual goaled groups on a thief then on a mirage, holo, soulbeast and gain a better understanding of just why all the thieves are sitting at your spawn killing slow zerglings.

    Yeah, it's probably around 90% of the map. Do map it out if you want and calculate the areas compared to the total border area, I am guestimating there - could be more, could be less. Take into account that the enemy will rarely hold more than 2 towers with watchtowers and the fact that sentries almost always get flipped before the enemy engage you in solo roaming.

    Thieves always seem to complain about when people cry nerf on stealth or damage, they seem to want to keep their pigeonholed class as it is.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Instead of auto reveal, when you are within 1200 range of a marked (your server sourced) enemy player in stealth your action key becomes available and when pressed causes reveal after 3 seconds.

    reveal in that 1200 range around you, around where you casted or reveal to everyone who was within it at the time of cast?

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Instead of auto reveal, when you are within 1200 range of a marked (your server sourced) enemy player in stealth your action key becomes available and when pressed causes reveal after 3 seconds.

    reveal in that 1200 range around you, around where you casted or reveal to everyone who was within it at the time of cast?

    reveal to 5 foes who were within it at the time of cast, delayed by 3 seconds. 3 seconds for them to decide to make their move with offensive or run away.

    I don't really believe the current passiveness of watchtower and sentries is a legit way to handle stealth because they are just always on. Put some of the action back on to the players to make something out of the marked debuff on stealthing opponents.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    Stealth (From wiki)

    Characters in stealth cannot be targeted by enemies, but can still be hit by attacks and take damage without breaking stealth.

    That I think is where the change must happen. Forgive me for drawing from my time in WoW, but that was one of the ways you dealt with stealth classes, all of whom btw, had perma stealth. By tossing AoEs, etc you could flush out a stealthed player.

    So any damage a stealthed player takes, be it from fall damage, splash/cleve, arrow cart, necro marks, etc, would cause them to lose stealth.

    Reveal abilities are jank. Scrapper probably has the best one, but most scrappers I've met are running Medi and don't slot stealth Gyro. Herald has one but I can't remember the last time I actually hit a thief with it, as the range is only 350units.

    Traits should allow for condi cleanse in stealth, but not healing, and if a player enters stealth with too many condis to cleanse, the first tick of damage should drop them out of stealth. I'd also wonder about keeping the player in combat even while stealthed - the point being, they shouldn't be allowed to just enter stealth and get healed up to full by standing still and dropping combat.

    Then get rid of the marked / stealth trap nonsense, which IMO, was a quick fix, but not necessarily an elegant solution.

    With that fix in place, you must then increase the survivability of the thief to compensate for them having to spend more time fighting visible; I don't think the other professions who have access to stealth (mesmers, rangers, engy, etc) need boosts as their profession isn't as focused around stealth.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Stealth (From wiki)

    Characters in stealth cannot be targeted by enemies, but can still be hit by attacks and take damage without breaking stealth.

    That I think is where the change must happen. Forgive me for drawing from my time in WoW, but that was one of the ways you dealt with stealth classes, all of whom btw, had perma stealth. By tossing AoEs, etc you could flush out a stealthed player.

    So any damage a stealthed player takes, be it from fall damage, splash/cleve, arrow cart, necro marks, etc, would cause them to lose stealth.

    Reveal abilities are jank. Scrapper probably has the best one, but most scrappers I've met are running Medi and don't slot stealth Gyro. Herald has one but I can't remember the last time I actually hit a thief with it, as the range is only 350units.

    Traits should allow for condi cleanse in stealth, but not healing, and if a player enters stealth with too many condis to cleanse, the first tick of damage should drop them out of stealth. I'd also wonder about keeping the player in combat even while stealthed - the point being, they shouldn't be allowed to just enter stealth and get healed up to full by standing still and dropping combat.

    Then get rid of the marked / stealth trap nonsense, which IMO, was a quick fix, but not necessarily an elegant solution.

    With that fix in place, you must then increase the survivability of the thief to compensate for them having to spend more time fighting visible; I don't think the other professions who have access to stealth (mesmers, rangers, engy, etc) need boosts as their profession isn't as focused around stealth.

    Because other professions have evades and such along with stealth. This isn't wow, the last thing we want is to to change the entire class altogether with warcrap.

    Stealth is a disengage and only thief takes reduced damage while in stealth but they dNt really kill you unless Condi based...from within stealth its an opener and your opportunity tochoose what you, the opponent, wants to do...run or fight...bur think if how you can kill him whether it be aoes or such...tKing ANY damage then force revealing you is a horrible idea and had been thought of before but would kill slot of classes other than thief. Again this isn't wow nor is thief itself the issue...its marked interfering with playstyle using stealth

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    how is running away and stealthing a playstyle tho
    that's what i'd like to know

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    how is running away and stealthing a playstyle tho
    that's what i'd like to know

    Scouting mostly. Recon

  • Rayya.2591Rayya.2591 Member ✭✭✭

    stealth is broken mechanic and should be removed

  • Any suggestions bump?

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    The marked effect was changed cause various additions to the game made it possible to hide excessive amounts of time in stealth while still being successful. If you want the marked effect to change you will have to change what merited the marked effect to be changed in the first place.

    Now I don't want to bash deadeye in particular since daredevil (idk about core thief) can remain in permastealth as well if built for it however that was not done because it was not very effective. Trapperthief was permastealth and effective and it got the nerfhammer cause it deserved it, uninteractive gameplay does not build a healthy gamemode. This time ANET changed the marked effect instead of the success of perma/near perma stealth playstyles and if you want the marked effect changed this has to be changed first. Then again I've been seeing more and more perma stealth condi trapper deadeyes in WvW so maybe it is just a matter of time before this becomes a non-issue.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Perma stealth condi trapper deadeye doesn't really work since you'd be revealed more times than you can shadow meld for the condi application that you need to inflict, meaning you would not be perma stealth. What you are probably thinking of is a condi build which isn't using traps that doesn't reveal by using signet of shadows, caltrops, caltrops traited, venoms, rifle with dp or dd, etc. If they did use trapper runes or traps/trap on heal, they would probably only run 1 trap like needle trap and save smeld for that.

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    Perma stealth condi trapper deadeye doesn't really work since you'd be revealed more times than you can shadow meld for the condi application that you need to inflict, meaning you would not be perma stealth. What you are probably thinking of is a condi build which isn't using traps that doesn't reveal by using signet of shadows, caltrops, caltrops traited, venoms, rifle with dp or dd, etc. If they did use trapper runes or traps/trap on heal, they would probably only run 1 trap like needle trap and save smeld for that.

    Is possible, since I rarely see them when they "condi bomb" I cannot say how they do it.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Adjust the time Marked lets you stay in stealth before revealing you to 5s. That way you can escape a gank somewhat with stealth even marked but you cannot stealth camp to be an annoying little sheet.

    A lot of people seem to not realise that thief and mesmer are at their core are balanced around stealth being their active defence, it's not that they're deliberately loading everything onto stealth for defence, it's that they don't have better options for that playstyle.

    At the moment marked from sentries or towers shuts down mesmer and thief defences unfairly. Either allow a little bit longer duration of stealth or make marked remove all invuln and block effects after 2s too.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Adjust the time Marked lets you stay in stealth before revealing you to 5s. That way you can escape a gank somewhat with stealth even marked but you cannot stealth camp to be an annoying little sheet.

    there is one additional change that might be needed if the timer is set to 5 seconds.
    before those mark changes when there was a trap i instantly got revealed by it, wich gave the opponent an idea at what position i might pop up if i happen to make a wrong step. with 5 seconds i can get on quite some distance before popping out of stealth and then kite with short instances of stealth fairly easy, meaning multiple opponents. so if it is set to 5 seconds, if a trap or trick hits an already stealthed target, they should get revealed instantly for a short time. (you know just to keep them still somewhat usefull for getting a deadeye out of keep without having an entire zerg)

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Adjust the time Marked lets you stay in stealth before revealing you to 5s. That way you can escape a gank somewhat with stealth even marked but you cannot stealth camp to be an annoying little sheet.

    there is one additional change that might be needed if the timer is set to 5 seconds.
    before those mark changes when there was a trap i instantly got revealed by it, wich gave the opponent an idea at what position i might pop up if i happen to make a wrong step. with 5 seconds i can get on quite some distance before popping out of stealth and then kite with short instances of stealth fairly easy, meaning multiple opponents. so if it is set to 5 seconds, if a trap or trick hits an already stealthed target, they should get revealed instantly for a short time. (you know just to keep them still somewhat usefull for getting a deadeye out of keep without having an entire zerg)

    To the trap sure, add instant reveal but I don't think adding it to the always on massive range of watchtower is a good idea.

    Of course none of this would be an issue if stealth was properly adjusted so classes that were never balanced around constant stealth access weren't given 10s CD stealth and if ANet didn't allow perma stealth to begin with but /shrug.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Adjust the time Marked lets you stay in stealth before revealing you to 5s. That way you can escape a gank somewhat with stealth even marked but you cannot stealth camp to be an annoying little sheet.

    there is one additional change that might be needed if the timer is set to 5 seconds.
    before those mark changes when there was a trap i instantly got revealed by it, wich gave the opponent an idea at what position i might pop up if i happen to make a wrong step. with 5 seconds i can get on quite some distance before popping out of stealth and then kite with short instances of stealth fairly easy, meaning multiple opponents. so if it is set to 5 seconds, if a trap or trick hits an already stealthed target, they should get revealed instantly for a short time. (you know just to keep them still somewhat usefull for getting a deadeye out of keep without having an entire zerg)

    To the trap sure, add instant reveal but I don't think adding it to the always on massive range of watchtower is a good idea.

    yeah not talking about tower/sentry, just traps/tricks

    Of course none of this would be an issue if stealth was properly adjusted so classes that were never balanced around constant stealth access weren't given 10s CD stealth and if ANet didn't allow perma stealth to begin with but /shrug.

    very unlikely with deadeye profession design since the rework.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    Perma stealth condi trapper deadeye doesn't really work since you'd be revealed more times than you can shadow meld for the condi application that you need to inflict, meaning you would not be perma stealth. What you are probably thinking of is a condi build which isn't using traps that doesn't reveal by using signet of shadows, caltrops, caltrops traited, venoms, rifle with dp or dd, etc. If they did use trapper runes or traps/trap on heal, they would probably only run 1 trap like needle trap and save smeld for that.

    Is possible, since I rarely see them when they "condi bomb" I cannot say how they do it.

    That is what I mean, they aren't using traps for that build for the most part as traps will have reveal, and shadow meld can only do so much, so they will be using some traits/caltrops/signet of shadows/venoms/mark/stolen skills/etc, possible to do with 0 traps involved and also not be revealed on condi application.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    Mark is a map mechanic like high ground, open field an LOS. Complaining about that is just ignorance.

    Necros are a freekill in open field and have to avoid it. And guess what: they can't even build for open field capability.

    Thieves that are annoyed by mark areas can switch to an evasion build with ease and get rid of the problem. Not to mention that every single thief - no matter whether he relies on steath or evasions - has enough mobility to outrun most encounters.

    When you roam on necro then thieves will tell you to play another class if you feel punished by the open spaces. When thieves feel punished themselves they will tell us that the map mechanic has to be changed.

    Ridiculous topic full of delusion that shows how hard people are carried by cheese these days.

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    Perma stealth condi trapper deadeye doesn't really work since you'd be revealed more times than you can shadow meld for the condi application that you need to inflict, meaning you would not be perma stealth. What you are probably thinking of is a condi build which isn't using traps that doesn't reveal by using signet of shadows, caltrops, caltrops traited, venoms, rifle with dp or dd, etc. If they did use trapper runes or traps/trap on heal, they would probably only run 1 trap like needle trap and save smeld for that.

    Is possible, since I rarely see them when they "condi bomb" I cannot say how they do it.

    That is what I mean, they aren't using traps for that build for the most part as traps will have reveal, and shadow meld can only do so much, so they will be using some traits/caltrops/signet of shadows/venoms/mark/stolen skills/etc, possible to do with 0 traps involved and also not be revealed on condi application.

    Ignoring the trap point of my sentence, it is still as fun and interactive to play against as the trapper thieves back in the day. As in, not at all.

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭

    There are two strong Dead Eye builds. The backstab variant those goes stealth for very long periods of time and the rifle spam variant with short stealth that doesn't take Shadow Arts. As a DE player I don't mind the marking towers, the Vet mark is an entirely different animal. I won't fight near one outside of a numbers advantage.

    The marking mechanic on stealth is another kitten way of dealing with a fundamentally broken mechanic. Stealth as it is today is straight up OP. In its current form, I mostly die when I mess up and play too aggressive. If I slow roll a DeadEye build, I can kill scores of players including skilled ones and never die. For context I am 50ish with moderate at best reaction times often running a semi-glass DeadEye.

  • @KrHome.1920 said:
    Mark is a map mechanic like high ground, open field an LOS. Complaining about that is just ignorance.

    Necros are a freekill in open field and have to avoid it. And guess what: they can't even build for open field capability.

    Thieves that are annoyed by mark areas can switch to an evasion build with ease and get rid of the problem. Not to mention that every single thief - no matter whether he relies on steath or evasions - has enough mobility to outrun most encounters.

    When you roam on necro then thieves will tell you to play another class if you feel punished by the open spaces. When thieves feel punished themselves they will tell us that the map mechanic has to be changed.

    Ridiculous topic full of delusion that shows how hard people are carried by cheese these days.

    this is how the marked even came into existence, people qqing about the thieves doing what they do, roam. if someone got ganked from being unprepared or not sticking with a group and PTO then its their fault they died, if they sought fights and tried to roam, then they have to deal with it. Thief is being punished for using its given mechanics. you're entitled to your opinion but get your facts straight

  • @Straegen.2938 said:
    There are two strong Dead Eye builds. The backstab variant those goes stealth for very long periods of time and the rifle spam variant with short stealth that doesn't take Shadow Arts. As a DE player I don't mind the marking towers, the Vet mark is an entirely different animal. I won't fight near one outside of a numbers advantage.

    The marking mechanic on stealth is another kitten way of dealing with a fundamentally broken mechanic. Stealth as it is today is straight up OP. In its current form, I mostly die when I mess up and play too aggressive. If I slow roll a DeadEye build, I can kill scores of players including skilled ones and never die. For context I am 50ish with moderate at best reaction times often running a semi-glass DeadEye.

    Stealths problem is you can basicly do what you want:
    Moving as fast as the enemy and on top you have access to a kitten of shadowsteps
    If stealth leaves you to move like half the speed, or when you shadowstep you not in stealth anymore(not revealed) would Both be logical mechanics to implement (movement because of sound movement and the shadowstep because of the 'area' covered you and you got to find new cover) leaving the thief were it is, hitting permastealth deadeye, not touching gvg steal nor other forms of stealth

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2019

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    There are two strong Dead Eye builds. The backstab variant those goes stealth for very long periods of time and the rifle spam variant with short stealth that doesn't take Shadow Arts. As a DE player I don't mind the marking towers, the Vet mark is an entirely different animal. I won't fight near one outside of a numbers advantage.

    The marking mechanic on stealth is another kitten way of dealing with a fundamentally broken mechanic. Stealth as it is today is straight up OP. In its current form, I mostly die when I mess up and play too aggressive. If I slow roll a DeadEye build, I can kill scores of players including skilled ones and never die. For context I am 50ish with moderate at best reaction times often running a semi-glass DeadEye.

    Stealths problem is you can basicly do what you want:
    Moving as fast as the enemy and on top you have access to a kitten of shadowsteps
    If stealth leaves you to move like half the speed, or when you shadowstep you not in stealth anymore(not revealed) would Both be logical mechanics to implement (movement because of sound movement and the shadowstep because of the 'area' covered you and you got to find new cover) leaving the thief were it is, hitting permastealth deadeye, not touching gvg steal nor other forms of stealth

    stealth is compared to other defensive mechanics pretty weak: superior range, evades, invuln, blocks, mobility even boons are all options to deal damage while avoiding/reducing counter damage, while stealth is per design not able to do that. the moment you attack you lose your stealth, while it doesnt technically prevent you from taking damage to begin with. as a result for rather weak stealth, stealth is abundant. it might not be a healthy stealth but its balanced in some way. i dont think you can just nerf it, but you might change it. for example being limited in movement (slower, breaking stealth on shadowsteps/leaps/maybe even on CC)while also not taking damage in stealth could be something that might even give thieves a better option to dive the opposing zerg.
    you may change the design of stealth, but just nerfing it seems unlikely given that thief and even more so deadeye is designed with a lot of stealth in mind.

    also the strength of a deadeye is not the stealth alone, but especially its ability to outrange most counterattacks in the window it provides, because superior range is indeed one of the strongest defenses in any game.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    There are two strong Dead Eye builds. The backstab variant those goes stealth for very long periods of time and the rifle spam variant with short stealth that doesn't take Shadow Arts. As a DE player I don't mind the marking towers, the Vet mark is an entirely different animal. I won't fight near one outside of a numbers advantage.

    The marking mechanic on stealth is another kitten way of dealing with a fundamentally broken mechanic. Stealth as it is today is straight up OP. In its current form, I mostly die when I mess up and play too aggressive. If I slow roll a DeadEye build, I can kill scores of players including skilled ones and never die. For context I am 50ish with moderate at best reaction times often running a semi-glass DeadEye.

    Stealths problem is you can basicly do what you want:
    Moving as fast as the enemy and on top you have access to a kitten of shadowsteps
    If stealth leaves you to move like half the speed, or when you shadowstep you not in stealth anymore(not revealed) would Both be logical mechanics to implement (movement because of sound movement and the shadowstep because of the 'area' covered you and you got to find new cover) leaving the thief were it is, hitting permastealth deadeye, not touching gvg steal nor other forms of stealth

    stealth is compared to other defensive mechanics pretty weak: superior range, evades, invuln, blocks, mobility even boons are all options to deal damage while avoiding/reducing counter damage, while stealth is per design not able to do that. the moment you attack you lose your stealth, while it doesnt technically prevent you from taking damage to begin with. as a result for rather weak stealth, stealth is abundant. it might not be a healthy stealth but its balanced in some way. i dont think you can just nerf it, but you might change it. for example being limited in movement (slower, breaking stealth on shadowsteps/leaps) but also not taking damage in stealth could be something that might even give thieves a better option to dive the opposing zerg.
    you may change the design of stealth, but just nerfing it seems unlikely given that thief and even more so deadeye is designed with a lot of stealth in mind.

    also the strength of a deadeye is not the stealth alone, but especially its ability to outrange most counterattacks in the window it provides, because superior range is indeed one of the strongest defenses in any game.

    I agree on this, id change it to certain aoe's (Marks and traps wont work unless they unblockable) instead of attacks in general. Swinging a sword on a target works, even when he's invis. This would provide a counterplay, and give Risk to the stealthclass because hé needs to come close nontheless

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