Overview -> Counters of each class — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Overview -> Counters of each class

Serenity.6304Serenity.6304 Member ✭✭
edited February 1, 2019 in PVP

Hey guys,

I want to create an overview in which you can see certain specs countering other specs. I know, it is basically all about the individual playstyle and it doesn't matter which class you play, a better player always counters a worse one. Also, many classes are not supposed to go 1 vs 1, instead being a +1. But I know that there are certain weaknesses, and it is more LIKELY to counter them with a specific class. But I need opinions. I hope I listed all relevant classes / specs for pvp below...

The already filled out counters are not necessarily right, feel free to correct. I will adapt and edit this post regularly. Hope enough will participate. I had in mind mostly 1 vs 1, but not exclusively, as already said some classes / specs are better / prefered for teamfights, like Scourge.

I've read this thread https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65003/thoughts-post-season-14-from-different-class-perspectives#latest multiple times to get some idea about the weaknesses of each class, but because I want a simple overview, this one is supposed to be a separate thread.

Below takes the form of:

CLASS PLAYED <---------------- CLASSES WHO COUNTER THE CLASS (like in a 1 vs 1)
(not the other way round!)

COUNTER TO...

MESMER
Core Mesmer <- Core Guard, Core Thief
Mirage <- Core Guard, Core Thief
Chronomancer <-

ENGINEER
Core Engi <- Soulbeast, Mirage, in general Necros
Scrapper <- Soulbeast, Mirage, Spellbreaker, in general Guards, Necros, esp. Reaper
Holosmith <- Soulbeast, Mirage, in general Necros, esp. Scourge

THIEF
Core Thief S/D <-Soulbeast, Core Guard, Weaver, in general Engineer, esp. Holosmith
Deadeye <- Soulbeast, Core Guard, Weaver, in general Warrior, Engineer, esp. Holosmith
D/P Daredevil <- Soulbeast, Core Guard, Weaver, in general Engineer, esp. Holosmith

RANGER
Boon Beast<- Mirage
Druid <- Holosmith, Spellbreaker, Shatter Mesmer, in general Thieves
Core Ranger <-

ELEMENTALIST
Core Ele S/F <- Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Wariors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros
S/D Mender's Sword Weaver <- Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, Core Guard, in general Warriors, Thieves, Revenants // contradiction, some say no real counters?!
Fresh Air Weaver <-
Tempest <- Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Warriors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros

NECROMANCER
Core Necro <- Soulbeast, Core Warrior, in general Thieves
Reaper <- Soulbeast, Herald, in general Thieves, Warriors
Scourge <- Core Guard, Ranger, Soulbeast, S/D Mender's Sword Weaver , Revenant, in general Thieves

WARRIOR
Core Warrior <- Mirage
Spellbreaker <- Mirage

GUARDIAN
Core Guard <-Reaper, Soulbeast
Firebrand <- Reaper, Scourge, Soulbeast
Dragon Hunter <- any duelist build in current meta

REVENANT
Herald (Power Shiro) <- Holosmith, Soulbeast, Mirage, in general Thieves
Renegade <- Holosmith, Soulbeast, Mirage, in general Thieves

<1

Comments

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭

    My only addition to the list is that core necro builds (almost always are boon corrupt) counter spellbreakers.

    I'd also ask that you specifically write out (for those who might not be following along):

    "Below takes the form of: CLASS PLAYED > CLASSES COUNTERED"

    Lastly, there are various builds within each spec. For example, I have a holosmith spec that is countered by mirages, but doesn't follow the standard counters. I don't use it all the time, but it's situationally useful. You might note that there are various builds within each class, so this list isn't an end-all-be-all.

    Good luck!

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    COUNTER TO...
    THIEF
    Deadeye -> Soulbeast, Core Guard, all Warriors, Holosmith
    WARRIOR
    Core Warrior -> all Thiefs, Mirage
    Spellbreaker -> all Thiefs, Mirage

    just a little contradiction in your list.

    Wondering if he meant thieves outside of deadeyes.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    @Mbelch.9028 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    COUNTER TO...
    THIEF
    Deadeye -> Soulbeast, Core Guard, all Warriors, Holosmith
    WARRIOR
    Core Warrior -> all Thiefs, Mirage
    Spellbreaker -> all Thiefs, Mirage

    just a little contradiction in your list.

    Wondering if he meant thieves outside of deadeyes.

    well seen it alot lateley that when people talk about 'thieves', they mean everything but deadeyes. but you can never be sure and technically deadeye is just a thief spec.

    i would also like you to specify the circumstances in wich those professions counter the other. 1 vs 1 is just the teamsize, but what also matters is envoirement like open space / limited space, are there obstacles? is the fight over a node or do you win it by killing that profession etc.
    for example if the deadeye has space and no node to take just to kill the target, than no warrior will be a counter to a deadeye.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • NuhDah.9812NuhDah.9812 Member ✭✭✭

    On the thief section you've added core guard, but I know another clasic counter to dp drd as being DH too, while in some way I feel DE gets countered by dp drd, but it's debatable, I guess.

  • guard counters mesmer
    necro counters engi
    reaper counters firebrand
    core warrior counters core necro
    necro counters ele
    guard and spellbreaker counters scrapper

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    Any weaver with Primordial Stance (PS) can beat a thief or daredevil. They rely too much on melee combat, which PS counters hard, and any other burst can be evaded easily on Weaver.

    Very few Soulbeasts have I come across as counters. They usually rely too heavily on damage, which is just evaded, or too much on sustain, which Weavers can outplay if they're smart.

    But yeah, Warrior and Holosmith are hard counters. Any heavy condi builds are troublesome too, unless the Weaver specced full sustain

  • Derm.4932Derm.4932 Member ✭✭✭

    DH doesnt counter current meta Mirage. Its the other way around

  • everyman.4375everyman.4375 Member ✭✭✭

    @Serenity.6304 said:

    MESMER
    Core Mesmer ->Core Guard
    Mirage -> Core Guard, Dragonhunter
    Chronomancer ->

    For mirage I would add core Thief and Soulbeast but remove Dragonhunter.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    There is a secret counter to all classes and builds. . . Bearbeast :P

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    COUNTER TO...
    Scrapper -> Reaper, Soulbeast, Mirage

    Scrapper does not counter reaper. It's the other way around. Scrapper is extremely susceptible to corruptions. If any engineer spec has decent chances against a reaper, it's holo, when he manages to land the stunlock burst.

    D/P Daredevil->Soulbeast, Core Guard, Holosmith

    I doubt D/P daredevil counters soulbeast.

    Reaper -> Soulbeast, all Warriors

    Reaper counters soulbeast? Is this a joke? Soulbeast and deadeye are THE hardcounters to any possible reaper build. The reaper can only win against these specs by superior skill.

    And warriors... you can beat warriors on reaper if you slot corrupt boon, but it's still a tough matchup. A softcounter at best.

    Core Guard ->Reaper, Soulbeast

    On reaper I have absolutely no issues fighting core guards. Dragonhunters are way more of a threat, if they time their leaps and blocks well.

    Herald (Power Shiro) ->Holosmith, all Thiefs, Soulbeast, Ele

    Power Shiro softcounters reaper as long as the reaper is not running demolisher or paladin.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    Engineer as a general principle is countered by necro.
    Necro as a general principle is countered by thief.
    Thief as a general principle is countered by engineer.

    This is true for core and the elite specs.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Counters of the herald power shiro are all wrong: any thief can win easily a 1v1 against herald and harass it everytime herald is not in a team fight (wich leaves the idea of in-out fight of the main herald's gameplay totaly countered); herald doesnt counter soulbeast in any scenario; herald should counter holosmith in team fight, by choosing right timings in attack, but i suggest to not ever engage an holosmith in a 1v1 cap point, you will lose with herald, or be forced to run away. To me this matchup is pretty even. And the last one... yes the last one is correct, herald counter elementalist in any of his forms.
    You can add necros to herald's counter, and also warriors in general, but please remove soulbeast/thief/holosmith because this is totaly missleading for pvp players who want to have an idea on how a revenant should rotate and how to take advantage from a revenant teammate.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    bait thread lol

    this is way too subjective

    But it's so fun.

  • Serenity.6304Serenity.6304 Member ✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    Gonna edit and answer everything tomorrow, but it is important to know that the list says

    counters TO
    e.g. Mirage -> Core Guard

    So the last one is the spec that counters, like in 1 vs 1, but as already mentioned in the first comment, my description / form was misleading, no worries.

    But already a big thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and correcting wrong information!

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    @Serenity.6304 said:

    ELEMENTALIST
    Core Ele S/F -> 8 all other classes
    Weaver -> 8 all other classes
    Tempest -> 8 all other classes

    Hmm, yah, sounds about right.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:

    ELEMENTALIST
    Core Ele S/F -> 8 all other classes
    Weaver -> 8 all other classes
    Tempest -> 8 all other classes

    Hmm, yah, sounds about right.

    Nah... Pretty sure Renegade don't counter Ele.

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  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The thing with this that you probably are going off of standard "meta" copy paste builds. In reality the only class I have a issue with as a reaper is the uncontrollable conditions of mirage and chrono.

  • Why don't we play more DH? It has no counters, E Z game. All in all, might be the most inaccurate list I've ever seen. Which on this forum, says a lot.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Warrior counters Mirage?

    Hard Warrior nerfs next Balance Patch then.

  • @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Why don't we play more DH? It has no counters, E Z game. All in all, might be the most inaccurate list I've ever seen. Which on this forum, says a lot.

    Ofc it is inaccurate, full of mistakes and incomplete, DHs counters are still missing completely, as you’ve seen, for example. That does not mean that DH had no counters!

    The idea was that the list should be completed over time and with help of the forum members.

    It us just a try after all, if you all think it doesn‘t make sense I won‘t continue. But I will try to work with your contributions. It is fun for me as a fan of lists though ;)

  • Serenity.6304Serenity.6304 Member ✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Warrior counters Mirage?

    Hard Warrior nerfs next Balance Patch then.

    No, it‘s the other way round,
    Class played —> counters to this class
    But if it‘s wrong that Mirage can be seen as a counter to warrior, let me know

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    The thing with this that you probably are going off of standard "meta" copy paste builds. In reality the only class I have a issue with as a reaper is the uncontrollable conditions of mirage and chrono.

    Yes, you are correct
    That‘s interesting, yeah maybe a list doesn‘t make sense. As I have already said individual skill is what matters most. Still fun though :D

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Serenity.6304 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Warrior counters Mirage?

    Hard Warrior nerfs next Balance Patch then.

    No, it‘s the other way round,
    Class played —> counters to this class
    But if it‘s wrong that Mirage can be seen as a counter to warrior, let me know

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    The thing with this that you probably are going off of standard "meta" copy paste builds. In reality the only class I have a issue with as a reaper is the uncontrollable conditions of mirage and chrono.

    Yes, you are correct
    That‘s interesting, yeah maybe a list doesn‘t make sense. As I have already said individual skill is what matters most. Still fun though :D

    OHHHHH! Sorry then.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    I'd say Druid is countered by anything with heavy CC like Holo and Spellbreaker.
    Also by high Power roamers like all manner of thieves and Shatter Mesmer. Sure they have SoS but when that's gone they need to back off or they die.

    Also, DH is pretty much countered by any and all duelist builds in the current meta. They just do more damage, have better stability and sustain and are more mobile.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Warrior counters Mirage?

    Hard Warrior nerfs next Balance Patch then.

    No, it‘s the other way round,
    Class played —> counters to this class
    But if it‘s wrong that Mirage can be seen as a counter to warrior, let me know

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    The thing with this that you probably are going off of standard "meta" copy paste builds. In reality the only class I have a issue with as a reaper is the uncontrollable conditions of mirage and chrono.

    Yes, you are correct
    That‘s interesting, yeah maybe a list doesn‘t make sense. As I have already said individual skill is what matters most. Still fun though :D

    OHHHHH! Sorry then.

    Yea I actually thought this was a bait thread till he mentioned its just a fun thing...

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  • Avez.4621Avez.4621 Member ✭✭

    I never post but this thread looks promising :)

    What builds are we talking about here, because mender/ sage sword weaver doesn't get countered at all 1v1. Maybe gets in a even match but never a counter.
    And mender/ sage sword weaver counters scourges hard ...

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Avez.4621 said:
    What builds are we talking about here, because mender/ sage sword weaver doesn't get countered at all 1v1. Maybe gets in a even match but never a counter.
    And mender/ sage sword weaver counters scourges hard ...

    Any class with heavy Power hits and a bit of sustain will eventually down a S/D Weaver. I play Core Guard myself, and I've never lost a 1v1 to a Sword Weaver, even if I mess up a few times.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    Also, DH is pretty much countered by any and all duelist builds in the current meta. They just do more damage, have better stability and sustain and are more mobile.

    Yep, what Yannir said. DH counters none of the meta builds. It maybe has a slight advantage over daredevil and deadeye (and only if they're forced to sit and duel the DH) but not to a large enough extent to call it a counter.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    Also, DH is pretty much countered by any and all duelist builds in the current meta. They just do more damage, have better stability and sustain and are more mobile.

    Yep, what Yannir said. DH counters none of the meta builds. It maybe has a slight advantage over daredevil and deadeye (and only if they're forced to sit and duel the DH) but not to a large enough extent to call it a counter.

    IMO guardians are biggest counter for thief if ur forced to fight them. Thief can only run away

  • @Serenity.6304 said:
    Gonna edit and answer everything tomorrow, but it is important to know that the list says

    counters TO
    e.g. Mirage -> Core Guard

    So the last one is the spec that counters, like in 1 vs 1, but as already mentioned in the first comment, my description / form was misleading, no worries.

    But already a big thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and correcting wrong information!

    oh yea... a little missreading, you should change the direction of the ">" symbol XD.
    Aniway, i still don't think necro hardcounter rev, especialy in 1v1 as a revenant player they are my favourite targets. Maybe in team fights they can pull out a good counter due to the revenant split dmg between other players but... i don't think necro is a counter to revenant, maybe conditions are.
    And warrior? i think its an even match, even if i don't go 1v1 them often due to a battle of attrition (it takes too much time to kill one and i need to focus more in +1), i don't feel hardcountered from them like i am against thief or holo.
    I would put Mirage as a counter to rev instead of necros.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think you understand what a counter means. Just because some thing can best something doesn't mean it's a counter. A counter is something that almost guarantees a win. Like core thief counter core mesmer.

    In terms of soulbeasts vs mirage, condi mirage has a more favorable match up. So does power mirage. You could even argue that these counter soulbeasts due to condi with projectile reflect and boon rip, and power with boon rip.

    I'd argue even warrior has a favorable match up vs boonbeast.

    But if you're bad, or playing a bad build, it won't feel that way. And soulbeast can still beat you. That doesn't make soulbeast a counter though.

  • UfoCoffee.2084UfoCoffee.2084 Member ✭✭✭

    @NuhDah.9812 said:
    On the thief section you've added core guard, but I know another clasic counter to dp drd as being DH too, while in some way I feel DE gets countered by dp drd, but it's debatable, I guess.

    I wouldn't say countered. Depends on the DE offset weapons and if they're good enough to know when drd dodges are gone and switch to rifle to 2 shot it. In an area with a lot of Los d/p should win.

  • UfoCoffee.2084UfoCoffee.2084 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    COUNTER TO...
    THIEF
    Deadeye -> Soulbeast, Core Guard, all Warriors, Holosmith
    WARRIOR
    Core Warrior -> all Thiefs, Mirage
    Spellbreaker -> all Thiefs, Mirage

    just a little contradiction in your list.

    D/P doesn't counter spellbreaker? They don't have enough damage to kill it. Even if they played perfectly it would take far too long and it would be time wasted for D/P.

    Countered means D/P has a huge advantage starting off which 100% isn't the case.

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭

    Through the eyes of the PvP forum crowd, everything in the game is decided by class and build. A thread like this is a perfect fit for that sort of mentality...

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    (...)
    ELEMENTALIST
    Core Ele S/F ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Wariors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros
    Weaver ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Wariors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros
    Tempest ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Warriors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros
    (...)

    I suggest you seperate weaver between S/D and FA. :tongue:

    Won't even bother to give my point of view, but I feat S/D might get overbuffed in the next balance pat-... hold on... I must be joking. :lol:

    This just seems too random.

  • Edited everything with information from your answers. Still have no idea about "Counters" to Chronomancer, Core Ranger, or more Counters to the Warrior Specs. Are there no more Counters to Soul Beast atm?
    Thank you already. If you hate the idea of such a list, maybe it's better to ignore it. No need to get bad mood in here :D If you like the idea or want to get some mistakes corrected, I am looking forward to your (further) contributions. It is not as easy as I thought. I thought creating such a list would be more straight-forward...

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    (...)
    ELEMENTALIST
    Core Ele S/F ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Wariors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros
    Weaver ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Wariors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros
    Tempest ->Soulbeast, Daredevil, Holosmith, in general Warriors, Thieves, Revenants, Necros
    (...)

    I suggest you seperate weaver between S/D and FA. :tongue:

    Won't even bother to give my point of view, but I feat S/D might get overbuffed in the next balance pat-... hold on... I must be joking. :lol:

    This just seems too random.

    I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    I don't think you understand what a counter means. Just because some thing can best something doesn't mean it's a counter. A counter is something that almost guarantees a win. Like core thief counter core mesmer.

    In terms of soulbeasts vs mirage, condi mirage has a more favorable match up. So does power mirage. You could even argue that these counter soulbeasts due to condi with projectile reflect and boon rip, and power with boon rip.

    I'd argue even warrior has a favorable match up vs boonbeast.

    But if you're bad, or playing a bad build, it won't feel that way. And soulbeast can still beat you. That doesn't make soulbeast a counter though.

    I know, this might not be the true meaning of a counter, but this thread was meant to illustrate a way to mark certain weaknesses for each class, broken down into the specs as a whole and without getting into details or minor build differences / specific utilities. Yeah, so some of the mentioned counters are no real counters indeed. But nvm, this list is not to be taken too seriously, as you've already said: If you're bad, everything can be a counter (does not necessarily depend on the class)

    @Shala.8352 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    Gonna edit and answer everything tomorrow, but it is important to know that the list says

    counters TO
    e.g. Mirage -> Core Guard

    So the last one is the spec that counters, like in 1 vs 1, but as already mentioned in the first comment, my description / form was misleading, no worries.

    But already a big thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and correcting wrong information!

    oh yea... a little missreading, you should change the direction of the ">" symbol XD.

    Thanks, good idea!

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UfoCoffee.2084 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    COUNTER TO...
    THIEF
    Deadeye -> Soulbeast, Core Guard, all Warriors, Holosmith
    WARRIOR
    Core Warrior -> all Thiefs, Mirage
    Spellbreaker -> all Thiefs, Mirage

    just a little contradiction in your list.

    D/P doesn't counter spellbreaker? They don't have enough damage to kill it. Even if they played perfectly it would take far too long and it would be time wasted for D/P.

    Countered means D/P has a huge advantage starting off which 100% isn't the case.

    not sure why you quote me, what i did quote was just what was in the original list. has nothing to do with d/p thief. but he said that deadeye get countered by all warriors but both listed warrior build would get countered by all thieves. that just cannot happen. he since changed the list.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    (...)
    I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D
    (...)

    Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

    Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

    €: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

    S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

    When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.
    So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

    In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

    However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

    So, what would I say counters S/D ele? Boonbeast, clearly. Many quick roamers, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe DE/rifle thief.

    Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does lack duelists and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

    I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.


    I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

    FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

    It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

    So in duels it loses to basically anything. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

    I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.


    €2: Well, why not write more to the others?

    Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

    Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand (because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

    Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

    So it can counter ranged builds (yolosoulbeast, rifle thief). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    (...)
    I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D
    (...)

    Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

    Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

    €: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

    S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

    When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.
    So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

    In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

    However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

    So, what would I say counters S/D ele? Boonbeast, clearly. Many quick roamers, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe DE/rifle thief.

    Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does lack duelists and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

    I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.


    I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

    FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

    It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

    So in duels it loses to basically anything. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

    I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.


    €2: Well, why not write more to the others?

    Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

    Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand (because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

    Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

    So it can counter ranged builds (yolosoulbeast, rifle thief). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

    Tempest should be able to beat FB with a lightning rod build.. I actually have a vid where I nuke one all game on a celestial fire/air build..

    youre right about Holo but not War, War is a basic class to fight and not sure what you mean about cleanses as Tempest is packed with cleanses and pretty much hard counters Mirage..

    Judging by your post you are using Earth, you wouldn't counter Mirage using Earth to be fair. Using Fire/Air or Water/fire or water/arcane in conjunction with soldier runes and cleansing sigils will make you immune to condi basically.
    and if you wanted to run AoE cleanses and heals you would take Fire/Water for aura share and condi cleanse on aura application, combine that with soldier runes and shouts and you have a double aoe cleanse and heal on each shout..

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • In my experience, nothing can take down a good S/D Weaver 1vs1.

  • UfoCoffee.2084UfoCoffee.2084 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @UfoCoffee.2084 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    COUNTER TO...
    THIEF
    Deadeye -> Soulbeast, Core Guard, all Warriors, Holosmith
    WARRIOR
    Core Warrior -> all Thiefs, Mirage
    Spellbreaker -> all Thiefs, Mirage

    just a little contradiction in your list.

    D/P doesn't counter spellbreaker? They don't have enough damage to kill it. Even if they played perfectly it would take far too long and it would be time wasted for D/P.

    Countered means D/P has a huge advantage starting off which 100% isn't the case.

    not sure why you quote me, what i did quote was just what was in the original list. has nothing to do with d/p thief. but he said that deadeye get countered by all warriors but both listed warrior build would get countered by all thieves. that just cannot happen. he since changed the list.

    Oh weird. I meant to quote something else but ended up like that. Did it on a train on my phone. Might explain it 😏

  • In my experience, Rev counter holo

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭

    This list seems pretty accurate to me, though i'd add mirage counters reaper pretty hard

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    (...)
    I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D
    (...)

    Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

    Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

    €: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

    S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

    When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.
    So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

    In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

    However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

    So, what would I say counters S/D ele? Boonbeast, clearly. Many quick roamers, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe DE/rifle thief.

    Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does lack duelists and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

    I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.


    I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

    FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

    It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

    So in duels it loses to basically anything. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

    I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.


    €2: Well, why not write more to the others?

    Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

    Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand (because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

    Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

    So it can counter ranged builds (yolosoulbeast, rifle thief). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

    Tempest should be able to beat FB with a lightning rod build.. I actually have a vid where I nuke one all game on a celestial fire/air build..

    youre right about Holo but not War, War is a basic class to fight and not sure what you mean about cleanses as Tempest is packed with cleanses and pretty much hard counters Mirage..

    Judging by your post you are using Earth, you wouldn't counter Mirage using Earth to be fair. Using Fire/Air or Water/fire or water/arcane in conjunction with soldier runes and cleansing sigils will make you immune to condi basically.

    Honestly, if you can nuke a firebrand with a celestial amulet, then there might have simply been a huge skill difference between you two. :tongue:

    I am referring to the old water/earth/tempest build indeed. Tempest does not have enough easy to access and quick cleanses to work through the corruption and condi application of, say, a scourge. Water overload is great, for example, but the access is so tough, you have to predict condibursts by several seconds. It is not helpless, but firebrand is way better. F2 alone gives 2 cleanses every 4 seconds and 5 cleanses on a 12s CD, neglecting ammunition, blocks, resistance and utility skills.

    Earth would actually be a very good solution for duels if you take Diamond Skin. But of course, it might leave you vulnerable to power damage and risk a drop of your cleanses if you get bursted. Water/fire would leave you extremely vulnerable to power classes, because you only get protection via oerloads. There are a lot of half-viable tempest options, I am trolling with scepter/warhorn and staff builds currently, but that's just it: Trolling newbies.^^

    Now I am thinking about comparing "cleanses per second" for the two builds. I would actually be interested to think about making tempest a support versus power based compositions and firebrand the counter to condi compositions... but some other day!

    So while I am not an expert for tempest, I do usually play in plat3 and know its strengths and weaknesses. :smile: But I am very open for discussions! Maybe your builds are variants having other counters and countering other classes?

    @herrmartell.7109 said:
    In my experience, nothing can take down a good S/D Weaver 1vs1.

    That's it. Mender can also stall boonbeast easily. It just also can't drive anything off point (in an appropriate amount of invested time) and is vulnerable to certain +1 classes.

    I really don't want buffs to sustain. If they could bring down condi application in general, I would even suggest nerfs as long as the DPS side gets buffs.

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    This list seems pretty accurate to me, though i'd add mirage counters reaper pretty hard

    Yeah mirage for sure and Chrono is a pretty close counter. Besides those 2 specs as a reaper ive had no other issues 1v1. Maybe a occasional Deadeye if i dont have cover near by to get in closer with my axe.

    How does a spec have 1,000 ways to hide, dodge, be invulnerable and avoid all damage while spamming mass conditions or doing a power spike. Either some damage avoiding needs to go or the damage needs to be nerfed on both Chrono and Mirage. Just annoying

  • JETWING.2759JETWING.2759 Member ✭✭✭

    Conditions/boon corrupt counters Mesmers, Thieves, Eles, Guard and Rangers...
    Power counters Wars, Engies, Revs and Necros...
    Hard cc counters Necros and Engies.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    (...)
    I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D
    (...)

    Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

    Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

    €: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

    S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

    When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.
    So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

    In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

    However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

    So, what would I say counters S/D ele? Boonbeast, clearly. Many quick roamers, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe DE/rifle thief.

    Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does lack duelists and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

    I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.


    I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

    FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

    It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

    So in duels it loses to basically anything. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

    I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.


    €2: Well, why not write more to the others?

    Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

    Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand (because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

    Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

    So it can counter ranged builds (yolosoulbeast, rifle thief). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

    Tempest should be able to beat FB with a lightning rod build.. I actually have a vid where I nuke one all game on a celestial fire/air build..

    youre right about Holo but not War, War is a basic class to fight and not sure what you mean about cleanses as Tempest is packed with cleanses and pretty much hard counters Mirage..

    Judging by your post you are using Earth, you wouldn't counter Mirage using Earth to be fair. Using Fire/Air or Water/fire or water/arcane in conjunction with soldier runes and cleansing sigils will make you immune to condi basically.

    Honestly, if you can nuke a firebrand with a celestial amulet, then there might have simply been a huge skill difference between you two. :tongue:

    I am referring to the old water/earth/tempest build indeed. Tempest does not have enough easy to access and quick cleanses to work through the corruption and condi application of, say, a scourge. Water overload is great, for example, but the access is so tough, you have to predict condibursts by several seconds. It is not helpless, but firebrand is way better. F2 alone gives 2 cleanses every 4 seconds and 5 cleanses on a 12s CD, neglecting ammunition, blocks, resistance and utility skills.

    Earth would actually be a very good solution for duels if you take Diamond Skin. But of course, it might leave you vulnerable to power damage and risk a drop of your cleanses if you get bursted. Water/fire would leave you extremely vulnerable to power classes, because you only get protection via oerloads. There are a lot of half-viable tempest options, I am trolling with scepter/warhorn and staff builds currently, but that's just it: Trolling newbies.^^

    Now I am thinking about comparing "cleanses per second" for the two builds. I would actually be interested to think about making tempest a support versus power based compositions and firebrand the counter to condi compositions... but some other day!

    So while I am not an expert for tempest, I do usually play in plat3 and know its strengths and weaknesses. :smile: But I am very open for discussions! Maybe your builds are variants having other counters and countering other classes?

    @herrmartell.7109 said:
    In my experience, nothing can take down a good S/D Weaver 1vs1.

    That's it. Mender can also stall boonbeast easily. It just also can't drive anything off point (in an appropriate amount of invested time) and is vulnerable to certain +1 classes.

    I really don't want buffs to sustain. If they could bring down condi application in general, I would even suggest nerfs as long as the DPS side gets buffs.

    Bro...you go around with 800-1000 healing power just to avoid being oneshotted....the issue here is not the damage, the ele class lacks a well designed sustain mechanic and you have been running a bunker amulet since launch just to be considered playable and at soon as you get some mediocre results, you see people suggesting "sustain nerfs on ele"...now let me explain you how a proper balance process work :

    1) You give the class a proper sustain mechanic no reliant on stats like it is for all other professions
    2) You scale down the bunker potential of the class
    3) You increase/decrease the damage accordingly

    The weaver trait line offers no extra sustain mechanic to ele it's still the same "go bunker amulet or die".....it's a busted design not something to celebrate, you don't win by greatly outplaying the enemy in this game....these days you win by outsustaining the enemy! Everybody goes around with build packed with passive sustain, invulnerability, block and insta activation healing skills, stealth, chainablee CC on low CD etc etc etc...

    Once you nerf further those 2 evasion skills on weaver....wth would I need that extra dmg for?, you would get outsustained even by Scooby doo playing blindfolded.

    I apoligize if it seems that I am picking on you, got nothing against you..personally I don't even know you in game so...it's just that I am seeing this notion popping more and more on the forum : "nerf sustain on weaver" and ask myself : "what sustain?", without those 2 sword evades...I would go back using core ele or hell even tempest and at the point I would further ask myself :" why in the hell I am putting this much effort for little to no results?...let me go back to core war or core guard (both my mains)"

    You people tend to pick some random personal account of 1v1 fights and then come here proposing kitten suggestions while ignoring all the inta-class relations a delicate balance of power between them...that's why I suggested to the devs on another thread , to take forum feedback with a grain of salt

    Again I apoligize if it seems I am antagonizing you ...I have been triggered by this suggestion "nerf sustain on weaver"...one too many time, you don't see a core guard/war, a holosmith, a herald, soulbeast, reaper etc etc....investing even a single point in healing power to reach the sustain they have and in your opinion an ele who lack that basic right to that basic sustain, who invest greatly in healing power to be on "par" with others...should be nerfed

    If ele would have ungodly sustain on top of its basic sustain then yeah...I would suggest to nerf sustain on ele...but when an ele must invest in healing power a lot just to have that basic sustain ...I find any "nerf sustain" argument..absolutely ridicolous ..sorry brother

    P.S why don't we nerf Monk's focus? so that guardians must invest in healing power ro reach 2k healing point for meditation usage...nerfHealing signet so that warriors must invest in healing power to reach 320 healing/second and in the same line nerf Adrenal health , nerf Healing turret so that engies can't go from 0 to hero while having 0 healing power , nerf infuse light , nerf everything down to ele level and force players to invest in that or that before we start complaining

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • scrapper can fight mirage to a stalemate if its condi. condi mirage certainly doesn't counter scrapper. even against power mirage it stands a decent chance if the player is good.
    soulbeast doesn't counter firebrand.
    I think teef s/d and herald can counter firebrand decently depending.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • U totally forgot DH :o

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    (...)
    I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D
    (...)

    Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

    Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

    €: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

    S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

    When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.
    So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

    In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

    However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

    So, what would I say counters S/D ele? Boonbeast, clearly. Many quick roamers, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe DE/rifle thief.

    Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does lack duelists and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

    I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.


    I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

    FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

    It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

    So in duels it loses to basically anything. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

    I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.


    €2: Well, why not write more to the others?

    Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

    Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand (because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

    Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

    So it can counter ranged builds (yolosoulbeast, rifle thief). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

    Tempest should be able to beat FB with a lightning rod build.. I actually have a vid where I nuke one all game on a celestial fire/air build..

    youre right about Holo but not War, War is a basic class to fight and not sure what you mean about cleanses as Tempest is packed with cleanses and pretty much hard counters Mirage..

    Judging by your post you are using Earth, you wouldn't counter Mirage using Earth to be fair. Using Fire/Air or Water/fire or water/arcane in conjunction with soldier runes and cleansing sigils will make you immune to condi basically.

    Honestly, if you can nuke a firebrand with a celestial amulet, then there might have simply been a huge skill difference between you two. :tongue:

    I am referring to the old water/earth/tempest build indeed. Tempest does not have enough easy to access and quick cleanses to work through the corruption and condi application of, say, a scourge. Water overload is great, for example, but the access is so tough, you have to predict condibursts by several seconds. It is not helpless, but firebrand is way better. F2 alone gives 2 cleanses every 4 seconds and 5 cleanses on a 12s CD, neglecting ammunition, blocks, resistance and utility skills.

    Earth would actually be a very good solution for duels if you take Diamond Skin. But of course, it might leave you vulnerable to power damage and risk a drop of your cleanses if you get bursted. Water/fire would leave you extremely vulnerable to power classes, because you only get protection via oerloads. There are a lot of half-viable tempest options, I am trolling with scepter/warhorn and staff builds currently, but that's just it: Trolling newbies.^^

    Now I am thinking about comparing "cleanses per second" for the two builds. I would actually be interested to think about making tempest a support versus power based compositions and firebrand the counter to condi compositions... but some other day!

    So while I am not an expert for tempest, I do usually play in plat3 and know its strengths and weaknesses. :smile: But I am very open for discussions! Maybe your builds are variants having other counters and countering other classes?

    @herrmartell.7109 said:
    In my experience, nothing can take down a good S/D Weaver 1vs1.

    That's it. Mender can also stall boonbeast easily. It just also can't drive anything off point (in an appropriate amount of invested time) and is vulnerable to certain +1 classes.

    I really don't want buffs to sustain. If they could bring down condi application in general, I would even suggest nerfs as long as the DPS side gets buffs.

    Bro...you go around with 800-1000 healing power just to avoid being oneshotted....the issue here is not the damage, the ele class lacks a well designed sustain mechanic and you have been running a bunker amulet since launch just to be considered playable and at soon as you get some mediocre results, you see people suggesting "sustain nerfs on ele"...now let me explain you how a proper balance process work :

    1) You give the class a proper sustain mechanic no reliant on stats like it is for all other professions
    2) You scale down the bunker potential of the class
    3) You increase/decrease the damage accordingly

    The weaver trait line offers no extra sustain mechanic to ele it's still the same "go bunker amulet or die".....it's a busted design not something to celebrate, you don't win by greatly outplaying the enemy in this game....these days you win by outsustaining the enemy! Everybody goes around with build packed with passive sustain, invulnerability, block and insta activation healing skills, stealth, chainablee CC on low CD etc etc etc...

    Once you nerf further those 2 evasion skills on weaver....wth would I need that extra dmg for?, you would get outsustained even by Scooby doo playing blindfolded.

    I apoligize if it seems that I am picking on you, got nothing against you..personally I don't even know you in game so...it's just that I am seeing this notion popping more and more on the forum : "nerf sustain on weaver" and ask myself : "what sustain?", without those 2 sword evades...I would go back using core ele or hell even tempest and at the point I would further ask myself :" why in the hell I am putting this much effort for little to no results?...let me go back to core war or core guard (both my mains)"

    You people tend to pick some random personal account of 1v1 fights and then come here proposing kitten suggestions while ignoring all the inta-class relations a delicate balance of power between them...that's why I suggested to the devs on another thread , to take forum feedback with a grain of salt

    Again I apoligize if it seems I am antagonizing you ...I have been triggered by this suggestion "nerf sustain on weaver"...one too many time, you don't see a core guard/war, a holosmith, a herald, soulbeast, reaper etc etc....investing even a single point in healing power to reach the sustain they have and in your opinion an ele who lack that basic right to that basic sustain, who invest greatly in healing power to be on "par" with others...should be nerfed

    If ele would have ungodly sustain on top of its basic sustain then yeah...I would suggest to nerf sustain on ele...but when an ele must invest in healing power a lot just to have that basic sustain ...I find any "nerf sustain" argument..absolutely ridicolous ..sorry brother

    P.S why don't we nerf Monk's focus? so that guardians must invest in healing power ro reach 2k healing point for meditation usage...nerfHealing signet so that warriors must invest in healing power to reach 320 healing/second and in the same line nerf Adrenal health , nerf Healing turret so that engies can't go from 0 to hero while having 0 healing power , nerf infuse light , nerf everything down to ele level and force players to invest in that or that before we start complaining

    If they nerf condi application from mirage and scourge, - which is being asked for quite a lot to make other condi builds viable, increasing build diversity and reducing power creep versus non-cleanse/non-block/non-invuln classes - ele and for example firebrand will become basically invulnerable to conditions. That is what I mean with my last sentence: "If they could bring down condi application in general, I would even suggest nerfs (...)". I am not asking for power defense nerfs, because - as I said numerous times too - power +1s are extremely dangerous for S/D weavers.

    The damage, however, is still a main problem of weaver. You could play a S/D bruiser, if it had AoE damege/CCs, you totally could. Use marauder amulet, jump in, do some burst combos and evade out again. Actually, the damage might be okayish, the amount of CC too - but the ranges and radii are too small. That's actually what I suggested in the "problems with ele"-thread and I have been asking for for a year now.
    €: Of course after they brought holo and mirage in line, which would compete for the same spot here. Warrior should be not a big issue. might try that when I have good connection again.

    I have to add, though, that a lot of suggestions in the ele subforum are utter nonsense. Complete reworks, unrealistic buffs, weird expectations... I wouldn't be mad, if ele became OP - I always wanted cheap titles too -, but S/D ele is not too far away from being viable. Or maybe I am just outplaying lots of people, which would be nice to know, but I kind of doubt it. :wink:

    Not speaking about tempest, core ele or FA weaver. :tongue: All of them need serious buffs/changes. But in our ele subforum aka trash bin there are some good suggestions for those too. Well, not for core ele, but for tempest and FA weaver (stab baseline, DPS increase, FA internal cooldown, all of these).

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