Overview -> Counters of each class - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Overview -> Counters of each class

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  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    (...)
    I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D
    (...)

    Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

    Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

    €: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

    S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

    When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.
    So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

    In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

    However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

    So, what would I say counters S/D ele? Boonbeast, clearly. Many quick roamers, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe DE/rifle thief.

    Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does lack duelists and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

    I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.


    I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

    FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

    It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

    So in duels it loses to basically anything. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

    I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.


    €2: Well, why not write more to the others?

    Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

    Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand (because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

    Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

    So it can counter ranged builds (yolosoulbeast, rifle thief). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

    Tempest should be able to beat FB with a lightning rod build.. I actually have a vid where I nuke one all game on a celestial fire/air build..

    youre right about Holo but not War, War is a basic class to fight and not sure what you mean about cleanses as Tempest is packed with cleanses and pretty much hard counters Mirage..

    Judging by your post you are using Earth, you wouldn't counter Mirage using Earth to be fair. Using Fire/Air or Water/fire or water/arcane in conjunction with soldier runes and cleansing sigils will make you immune to condi basically.

    Honestly, if you can nuke a firebrand with a celestial amulet, then there might have simply been a huge skill difference between you two. :tongue:

    I am referring to the old water/earth/tempest build indeed. Tempest does not have enough easy to access and quick cleanses to work through the corruption and condi application of, say, a scourge. Water overload is great, for example, but the access is so tough, you have to predict condibursts by several seconds. It is not helpless, but firebrand is way better. F2 alone gives 2 cleanses every 4 seconds and 5 cleanses on a 12s CD, neglecting ammunition, blocks, resistance and utility skills.

    Earth would actually be a very good solution for duels if you take Diamond Skin. But of course, it might leave you vulnerable to power damage and risk a drop of your cleanses if you get bursted. Water/fire would leave you extremely vulnerable to power classes, because you only get protection via oerloads. There are a lot of half-viable tempest options, I am trolling with scepter/warhorn and staff builds currently, but that's just it: Trolling newbies.^^

    Now I am thinking about comparing "cleanses per second" for the two builds. I would actually be interested to think about making tempest a support versus power based compositions and firebrand the counter to condi compositions... but some other day!

    So while I am not an expert for tempest, I do usually play in plat3 and know its strengths and weaknesses. :smile: But I am very open for discussions! Maybe your builds are variants having other counters and countering other classes?

    @herrmartell.7109 said:
    In my experience, nothing can take down a good S/D Weaver 1vs1.

    That's it. Mender can also stall boonbeast easily. It just also can't drive anything off point (in an appropriate amount of invested time) and is vulnerable to certain +1 classes.

    I really don't want buffs to sustain. If they could bring down condi application in general, I would even suggest nerfs as long as the DPS side gets buffs.

    Bro...you go around with 800-1000 healing power just to avoid being oneshotted....the issue here is not the damage, the ele class lacks a well designed sustain mechanic and you have been running a bunker amulet since launch just to be considered playable and at soon as you get some mediocre results, you see people suggesting "sustain nerfs on ele"...now let me explain you how a proper balance process work :

    1) You give the class a proper sustain mechanic no reliant on stats like it is for all other professions
    2) You scale down the bunker potential of the class
    3) You increase/decrease the damage accordingly

    The weaver trait line offers no extra sustain mechanic to ele it's still the same "go bunker amulet or die".....it's a busted design not something to celebrate, you don't win by greatly outplaying the enemy in this game....these days you win by outsustaining the enemy! Everybody goes around with build packed with passive sustain, invulnerability, block and insta activation healing skills, stealth, chainablee CC on low CD etc etc etc...

    Once you nerf further those 2 evasion skills on weaver....wth would I need that extra dmg for?, you would get outsustained even by Scooby doo playing blindfolded.

    I apoligize if it seems that I am picking on you, got nothing against you..personally I don't even know you in game so...it's just that I am seeing this notion popping more and more on the forum : "nerf sustain on weaver" and ask myself : "what sustain?", without those 2 sword evades...I would go back using core ele or hell even tempest and at the point I would further ask myself :" why in the hell I am putting this much effort for little to no results?...let me go back to core war or core guard (both my mains)"

    You people tend to pick some random personal account of 1v1 fights and then come here proposing kitten suggestions while ignoring all the inta-class relations a delicate balance of power between them...that's why I suggested to the devs on another thread , to take forum feedback with a grain of salt

    Again I apoligize if it seems I am antagonizing you ...I have been triggered by this suggestion "nerf sustain on weaver"...one too many time, you don't see a core guard/war, a holosmith, a herald, soulbeast, reaper etc etc....investing even a single point in healing power to reach the sustain they have and in your opinion an ele who lack that basic right to that basic sustain, who invest greatly in healing power to be on "par" with others...should be nerfed

    If ele would have ungodly sustain on top of its basic sustain then yeah...I would suggest to nerf sustain on ele...but when an ele must invest in healing power a lot just to have that basic sustain ...I find any "nerf sustain" argument..absolutely ridicolous ..sorry brother

    P.S why don't we nerf Monk's focus? so that guardians must invest in healing power ro reach 2k healing point for meditation usage...nerfHealing signet so that warriors must invest in healing power to reach 320 healing/second and in the same line nerf Adrenal health , nerf Healing turret so that engies can't go from 0 to hero while having 0 healing power , nerf infuse light , nerf everything down to ele level and force players to invest in that or that before we start complaining

    If they nerf condi application from mirage and scourge, - which is being asked for quite a lot to make other condi builds viable, increasing build diversity and reducing power creep versus non-cleanse/non-block/non-invuln classes - ele and for example firebrand will become basically invulnerable to conditions. That is what I mean with my last sentence: "If they could bring down condi application in general, I would even suggest nerfs (...)". I am not asking for power defense nerfs, because - as I said numerous times too - power +1s are extremely dangerous for S/D weavers.

    The damage, however, is still a main problem of weaver. You could play a S/D bruiser, if it had AoE damege/CCs, you totally could. Use marauder amulet, jump in, do some burst combos and evade out again. Actually, the damage might be okayish, the amount of CC too - but the ranges and radii are too small. That's actually what I suggested in the "problems with ele"-thread and I have been asking for for a year now.
    €: Of course after they brought holo and mirage in line, which would compete for the same spot here. Warrior should be not a big issue. might try that when I have good connection again.

    I have to add, though, that a lot of suggestions in the ele subforum are utter nonsense. Complete reworks, unrealistic buffs, weird expectations... I wouldn't be mad, if ele became OP - I always wanted cheap titles too -, but S/D ele is not too far away from being viable. Or maybe I am just outplaying lots of people, which would be nice to know, but I kind of doubt it. :wink:

    Not speaking about tempest, core ele or FA weaver. :tongue: All of them need serious buffs/changes. But in our ele subforum aka trash bin there are some good suggestions for those too. Well, not for core ele, but for tempest and FA weaver (stab baseline, DPS increase, FA internal cooldown, all of these).

    Tempest only needs a few tweaks, traiting for only 1 stack of stab for general is a let down or the healing coefficients for Water overload could use a look at... maybe add stab to the earth shout "aftershock" but otherwise Tempest a very good kit imo

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    (...)
    I really have no idea about the class so I just separated the weaver specs and hope for more information :D
    (...)

    Ah, I understand. :smiley: I will try to give my opinion when I have some spare time. Mostly S/D, but I know FA weaver too. Not played it in higher ranked gameplay though.

    Good to know it is supposed to be more of a community list, not just your opinion! But maybe I also should've read a little more...^^

    €: Ah, I can do it now. I assume equal skill level!

    S/D weaver (sage, avatar and mender) does only have boonbeast as a real counter in pure duelist scenarios. Prot holo can be tough, condi mirage for non-mender builds too. Warrior, other holo builds and sidenode firebrand are even match-ups and heavily CD dependant, but usually stalemates (at least with mender, other amulets are more risky, but can also kill the opponent).

    When it comes to +1 roles, basically all are extremely dangerous though and quickly drive every build off point. S/D or D/P thieves are the only ones that can be punished and forced to retreat in a 1on2 scenario. Core guard used to be a tough duelist as well and the most dangerous +1, but the changes to glacial heart (and GS actually) make them on par with the others. I still think that many +1 classes soft-counter an ele in the game, because he can not waste enemy's time on side nodes so easily. DE is actually the most annoying, because it can hardly be punished or avoided/stalled. It might be the worst +1 for ele.
    So: Many +1 classes = bad for S/D eles.

    In team fights ele gets hard countered by firebrand and even tempest. Lack of cover conditions for sage, lack of AoE pressure in general... very bad, very bad.

    However, ele can counter slow compositions with firebrand and scourge too. The point is to waste their time on a point - even together they are seldomly able to push a mender's weaver off point (the other two have a harder time). I used to send 2 teammates far and just troll mid for a long while and that wqorked quite good with and versus certain compositions.

    So, what would I say counters S/D ele? Boonbeast, clearly. Many quick roamers, because ele has poor disengage qualities, maybe DE/rifle thief.

    Where is S/D ele good? It can stall slow compositions by trolling far. It can kite with evades and LoS and waste lots of time as long as the point remains uncapped. In duels it can compete with all the other side noders (except soulbeast), it just lacks any other influence on a game. It can kind of counter** firebrand/scourge combos**. It can also be quite strong if the enemy does lack duelists and has to send rev, core guard against it (which I usually win easily).

    I don't know what you want to make of it, it is just not as easy. You could divide it up into "duels", "general team comp" and stuff, but that would quickly complicate matters.


    I will be shorter about FA weaver. :wink:

    FA weaver seems to counter... anything lacking teleports and strong ranged damage. And because few compositions lack these, it has a very hard time. In duels an FA weaver should loose to duelists, it can have a chance to burst some other roamers, but assuming equal skill, it is just worse.

    It can still burst down firebrands and scourges. Warriors too, when well-timed. When it can freecast, it can work.

    So in duels it loses to basically anything. When looking at team compositions, heavy defense teams can struggle with focusing down an FA weaver (many firebrands, warriors and such). It gets eradicated by revs, core guards and especially condi mirages (thief can have a bad time, I think, because they can get insta-bursted... but I am not too sure about this in higher ranks).

    I have to say, though, the instalol of FA weaver where you basically connect air attunement to as many skills as possible because you will spam it anyways... I never liked that playstyle, even though I loved the old FA ele.


    €2: Well, why not write more to the others?

    Core FA ele is weak. Extremely weak. I skip it, because it is a weaker FA weaver - while it can survive condis a little easier, it lacks damage due to double attunement and strong dual skills.

    Tempest... gets countered by** firebrand (because it is just a much stronger tempest) and AoE CC like **spellbreaker and holosmith. It lacks the condition cleanse to cope with long **scourge **and condi mirage fights.

    Now this sounds bad on its own - but it does have advantages too. Its healing capabilities are still huge and while it does not bring AoE stability and enough ceanses, it does bring auras, reflects and AoE protection and regeneration. In a composition with firebrand, it can seems to be able to do a lot of work. Also, when the enemy does lack specific builds - strong teamfight comps for example - it can help a lot with support or even trolling nodes by bunkering them versus single classes (+1s shut it down more easily than S/D weaver though).

    So it can counter ranged builds (yolosoulbeast, rifle thief). It can also work against** power based teams** as long as it isn't too CC heavy (stab on overload instead of cleanse with auras?) or as a second support, so it seems.

    Tempest should be able to beat FB with a lightning rod build.. I actually have a vid where I nuke one all game on a celestial fire/air build..

    youre right about Holo but not War, War is a basic class to fight and not sure what you mean about cleanses as Tempest is packed with cleanses and pretty much hard counters Mirage..

    Judging by your post you are using Earth, you wouldn't counter Mirage using Earth to be fair. Using Fire/Air or Water/fire or water/arcane in conjunction with soldier runes and cleansing sigils will make you immune to condi basically.

    Honestly, if you can nuke a firebrand with a celestial amulet, then there might have simply been a huge skill difference between you two. :tongue:

    I am referring to the old water/earth/tempest build indeed. Tempest does not have enough easy to access and quick cleanses to work through the corruption and condi application of, say, a scourge. Water overload is great, for example, but the access is so tough, you have to predict condibursts by several seconds. It is not helpless, but firebrand is way better. F2 alone gives 2 cleanses every 4 seconds and 5 cleanses on a 12s CD, neglecting ammunition, blocks, resistance and utility skills.

    Earth would actually be a very good solution for duels if you take Diamond Skin. But of course, it might leave you vulnerable to power damage and risk a drop of your cleanses if you get bursted. Water/fire would leave you extremely vulnerable to power classes, because you only get protection via oerloads. There are a lot of half-viable tempest options, I am trolling with scepter/warhorn and staff builds currently, but that's just it: Trolling newbies.^^

    Now I am thinking about comparing "cleanses per second" for the two builds. I would actually be interested to think about making tempest a support versus power based compositions and firebrand the counter to condi compositions... but some other day!

    So while I am not an expert for tempest, I do usually play in plat3 and know its strengths and weaknesses. :smile: But I am very open for discussions! Maybe your builds are variants having other counters and countering other classes?

    @herrmartell.7109 said:
    In my experience, nothing can take down a good S/D Weaver 1vs1.

    That's it. Mender can also stall boonbeast easily. It just also can't drive anything off point (in an appropriate amount of invested time) and is vulnerable to certain +1 classes.

    I really don't want buffs to sustain. If they could bring down condi application in general, I would even suggest nerfs as long as the DPS side gets buffs.

    Bro...you go around with 800-1000 healing power just to avoid being oneshotted....the issue here is not the damage, the ele class lacks a well designed sustain mechanic and you have been running a bunker amulet since launch just to be considered playable and at soon as you get some mediocre results, you see people suggesting "sustain nerfs on ele"...now let me explain you how a proper balance process work :

    1) You give the class a proper sustain mechanic no reliant on stats like it is for all other professions
    2) You scale down the bunker potential of the class
    3) You increase/decrease the damage accordingly

    The weaver trait line offers no extra sustain mechanic to ele it's still the same "go bunker amulet or die".....it's a busted design not something to celebrate, you don't win by greatly outplaying the enemy in this game....these days you win by outsustaining the enemy! Everybody goes around with build packed with passive sustain, invulnerability, block and insta activation healing skills, stealth, chainablee CC on low CD etc etc etc...

    Once you nerf further those 2 evasion skills on weaver....wth would I need that extra dmg for?, you would get outsustained even by Scooby doo playing blindfolded.

    I apoligize if it seems that I am picking on you, got nothing against you..personally I don't even know you in game so...it's just that I am seeing this notion popping more and more on the forum : "nerf sustain on weaver" and ask myself : "what sustain?", without those 2 sword evades...I would go back using core ele or hell even tempest and at the point I would further ask myself :" why in the hell I am putting this much effort for little to no results?...let me go back to core war or core guard (both my mains)"

    You people tend to pick some random personal account of 1v1 fights and then come here proposing kitten suggestions while ignoring all the inta-class relations a delicate balance of power between them...that's why I suggested to the devs on another thread , to take forum feedback with a grain of salt

    Again I apoligize if it seems I am antagonizing you ...I have been triggered by this suggestion "nerf sustain on weaver"...one too many time, you don't see a core guard/war, a holosmith, a herald, soulbeast, reaper etc etc....investing even a single point in healing power to reach the sustain they have and in your opinion an ele who lack that basic right to that basic sustain, who invest greatly in healing power to be on "par" with others...should be nerfed

    If ele would have ungodly sustain on top of its basic sustain then yeah...I would suggest to nerf sustain on ele...but when an ele must invest in healing power a lot just to have that basic sustain ...I find any "nerf sustain" argument..absolutely ridicolous ..sorry brother

    P.S why don't we nerf Monk's focus? so that guardians must invest in healing power ro reach 2k healing point for meditation usage...nerfHealing signet so that warriors must invest in healing power to reach 320 healing/second and in the same line nerf Adrenal health , nerf Healing turret so that engies can't go from 0 to hero while having 0 healing power , nerf infuse light , nerf everything down to ele level and force players to invest in that or that before we start complaining

    If they nerf condi application from mirage and scourge, - which is being asked for quite a lot to make other condi builds viable, increasing build diversity and reducing power creep versus non-cleanse/non-block/non-invuln classes - ele and for example firebrand will become basically invulnerable to conditions. That is what I mean with my last sentence: "If they could bring down condi application in general, I would even suggest nerfs (...)". I am not asking for power defense nerfs, because - as I said numerous times too - power +1s are extremely dangerous for S/D weavers.

    The damage, however, is still a main problem of weaver. You could play a S/D bruiser, if it had AoE damege/CCs, you totally could. Use marauder amulet, jump in, do some burst combos and evade out again. Actually, the damage might be okayish, the amount of CC too - but the ranges and radii are too small. That's actually what I suggested in the "problems with ele"-thread and I have been asking for for a year now.
    €: Of course after they brought holo and mirage in line, which would compete for the same spot here. Warrior should be not a big issue. might try that when I have good connection again.

    I have to add, though, that a lot of suggestions in the ele subforum are utter nonsense. Complete reworks, unrealistic buffs, weird expectations... I wouldn't be mad, if ele became OP - I always wanted cheap titles too -, but S/D ele is not too far away from being viable. Or maybe I am just outplaying lots of people, which would be nice to know, but I kind of doubt it. :wink:

    Not speaking about tempest, core ele or FA weaver. :tongue: All of them need serious buffs/changes. But in our ele subforum aka trash bin there are some good suggestions for those too. Well, not for core ele, but for tempest and FA weaver (stab baseline, DPS increase, FA internal cooldown, all of these).

    Tempest only needs a few tweaks, traiting for only 1 stack of stab for general is a let down or the healing coefficients for Water overload could use a look at... maybe add stab to the earth shout "aftershock" but otherwise Tempest a very good kit imo

    Yaah, I agree, a lot of suggestions ask for way too much and are hardly realistic. I agree tempest should be only buffed slightly, it's better to bring down the others.

    For example: personal stab baseline, make it AoE (and maybe add another stack) on trait so you can choose between AoE stab and cleanses with auras and adjust according to compositions.

    But let's not make this thread into another "buff ele" thread, even though it might need some. :wink:

  • Abazigal.3679Abazigal.3679 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    On topic, regarding most complaints coming from gold division being unplayable, maybe we should find the true solutions. The question isn't about what counters what.
    The question is more likely " what's the best setup to deal with 2 mirages 2 scourges and 1 holo ? " I'm pretty sure this would at least make it easier for many players, instead of trying to find 1v1 counters that do not exist.

    I was thinking of having at least 1 firebrand and 1 boonbeast + a deadeye eventually, but there might be easier setups.

  • Bunker Weaver counters Mirage and Core Guard, as well D/P or S/D thief, very easy to pressure off a plus from one of those given you have enough cooldowns, which if you don't you're probably playing Weaver wrong.
    Fresh Air Weaver counters Strength/Discipline Spellbreakers, Firebrands too I guess?

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • Brendan.1309Brendan.1309 Member ✭✭✭

    @Serenity.6304 When you say core guard counters mirage, which build/weaponset does it the best?
    Games with 2+mirage isn't uncommon, I'd like to have a bit more fun with those matchups.

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