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So It Doesn't Look Like Platforming was the Issue with HoT


Vayne.8563

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There are a lot of people who have bitterly complained about how HOT had become a platformer and that the game was badly received because of it. I think it's easy to see that PoF was far better received than HoT was..but it also has far more platforming...actual platforming in fact.

In fact, almost all of the stuff people complained about in HOT exists in POF except for the timer meta events, which apparently some people like. I find it interesting that some people who complained about platforming seem to enjoy PoF even though it has far more platforming that HoT ever had.

I like both expansions, myself, for completely different reasons.

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@Palador.2170 said:The real problem in HoT's maps was figuring out how to get from Point A to Point B. In PoF the path may be more complex, but it's usually much easier to figure out where the path is and how you're supposed to travel it.

Exactly. Also, unlike with HoT, for the most part (barring some parts of Desolation), that path is not only more clear, but also way easier (and faster) to travel.

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In addition to what's stated above, I also think a lot of the frustration on HoT's maps was too many champ mobs gating things like Hero challenges and mastery points, which they pretty much got rid of on the PoF maps. The bottom line with HoT in a lot of folks' opinions is that they erred too much on the side of making the maps too complex for how difficult they were, or vice versa.

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I'm not talking about any of that. This is not a thread that says there are no complaints about HoT. This thread has one specific purpose. The people who claim and have claimed HoT wasn't popular because it was a platforming game have pretty much been proven wrong. The platforming aspect is clearly popular,. due to the fact that PoF has far more platforming and it seems to be more popular. That's ALL I'm saying here.

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I have to wonder if incorporating platforming elements into HoT and PoF is Anet's substitute for content. I agree, there is platforming in both expacs, and I feel discouraged by that since I'm not into platform games. I am into RPGs- ones that do not use the terrain against the players but are rich in actual content. All platforming does is stretch out (in a frustrating way) the time it takes to play what content is there.

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@Nikal.4921 said:I have to wonder if incorporating platforming elements into HoT and PoF is Anet's substitute for content. I agree, there is platforming in both expacs, and I feel discouraged by that since I'm not into platform games. I am into RPGs- ones that do not use the terrain against the players but are rich in actual content. All platforming does is stretch out (in a frustrating way) the time it takes to play what content is there.

Platforming IS content. It may not be content you like. There have always been elements of platforming in this game. 3 vistas for example, are hidden behind jumping puzzles in the core game (Breach Wall, Scaffolding in Dredgehaunt and Vizier's Tower in the Straits of Devestation). You can't complete those three maps without doing a jumping puzzle and many other vistas require platforming as well. This is just taking the game to the next level.

Dry Top had a lot of platforming as well. HoT didn't particularly have platforming (with the exception of adventures), though, though some claimed it does. The platforming was minimal except in some of the adventures.

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@Vayne.8563 said:I'm not talking about any of that. This is not a thread that says there are no complaints about HoT. This thread has one specific purpose. The people who claim and have claimed HoT wasn't popular because it was a platforming game have pretty much been proven wrong. The platforming aspect is clearly popular,. due to the fact that PoF has far more platforming and it seems to be more popular. That's ALL I'm saying here.

"Proven wrong." "Proven,?" You might want to reconsider that statement.

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Well i didnt had to google "how to get to X point of interest" on pof, unlike hot where to get to point B, you had to start at the opposite side of the map (tangled, im looking at you) which was really frustrating needed to find extern help to reach to a regular place in the map.

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I like platforming, I was not one of those complaining about HoT. But I totally get the complaints. The difference here is that getting across PoF maps require relatively little platforming, and where it does exist, it's fairly straightforward, like make ONE raptor jump or ONE Springer jump onto a ledge and then keep moving. HoT maps, by comparison, had a ton of platforming just to get across the map, so if that wasn't your thing, you didn't really have any other options.

Another thing is that the platforming in PoF is much more forgiving. There is basically no fall damage, and in most cases if you miss a jump then it only sets you back 10-30 seconds work getting back up, whereas in HoT there were a lot of glide puzzles that would set you back several minutes if you dropped.

Also, the navigation is much more linear, you don't have to worry as much about how to find a way from one layer of a 3D map to another, it's basically just "cross a 2D map, and then maybe move up or down a bit when you get there."

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You've started an, "I was right." thread over the use of one word? Smh. It's not just about the words used, it's about what people are trying to convey. Some people certainly used the word platforming in terms of HoT maps being difficult to navigate for them. Whether they were correct in using that word or not, they were expressing a difficulty that was interfering with their enjoyment. Perhaps a bit more reading between the lines to arrive at the real meaning is in order.

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@IndigoSundown.5419 said:You've started an, "I was right." thread over the use of one word? Smh. It's not just about the words used, it's about what people are trying to convey. Some people certainly used the word platforming in terms of HoT maps being difficult to navigate for them. Whether they were correct in using that word or not, they were expressing a difficulty that was interfering with their enjoyment. Perhaps a bit more reading between the lines to arrive at the real meaning is in order.

It wasn't one word. It was a very distinctive argument that spanned many pages. And it's not an I"m right thread. It's a valid point. Platforming is apparently acceptable by the bulk of GW 2 players, or at least, it seems that way from the reception of PoF. How is that not worth pointing out?

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@Ohoni.6057 said:I like platforming, I was not one of those complaining about HoT. But I totally get the complaints. The difference here is that getting across PoF maps require relatively little platforming, and where it does exist, it's fairly straightforward, like make ONE raptor jump or ONE Springer jump onto a ledge and then keep moving. HoT maps, by comparison, had a ton of platforming just to get across the map, so if that wasn't your thing, you didn't really have any other options.

Another thing is that the platforming in PoF is much more forgiving. There is basically no fall damage, and in most cases if you miss a jump then it only sets you back 10-30 seconds work getting back up, whereas in HoT there were a lot of glide puzzles that would set you back several minutes if you dropped.

Also, the navigation is much more linear, you don't have to worry as much about how to find a way from one layer of a 3D map to another, it's basically just "cross a 2D map, and then maybe move up or down a bit when you get there."

Not really buying this since I didn't have to platform at all to cross any HoT map. Not even a little. Here you have hero points and vistas that require actual platforming. Skill based jumping not just jumping on a mushroom that puts you exactly where you need to be.

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People may have thought that platforming was an issue in HoT, when actually the main problem for them was traversing the maps. The big mistake ANet made with HoT was assuming that most players were actually able to play the game. Instead, what players really wanted was to not have to bother with analysing the environment, as most people are fantastically awful at any puzzle which requires spacial awareness. I personally really enjoyed that aspect of HoT; keeping a mental map of Tangled Depths on my first run through for instance, was a challenge indeed! PoF is far simpler in this regard - yes, there are jumps involved, but in all cases you can see where you are going, and the actual puzzles are incredibly simple to the point of insulting to players that are even halfway competent.

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I guess I know how to play the game but the HoT maps were just confusing. You needed updraft x in the west to get to point y in the north east.No idea if 'platforming' really was used on this forum and if everybody really meant what it means.

Edit: Something I always find funny: "Back then you complained about HoT, now you're complaining about PoF - make up your minds". You sure wrote down all names of all complainers to know that the same people complained about both!

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@Jana.6831 said:I guess I know how to play the game but the HoT maps were just confusing. You needed updraft x in the west to get to point y in the north east.No idea if 'platforming' really was used on this forum and if everybody really meant what it means.

Edit: Something I always find funny: "Back then you complained about HoT, now you're complaining about PoF - make up your minds". You sure wrote down all names of all complainers to know that the same people complained about both!

@Jana.6831 said:I guess I know how to play the game but the HoT maps were just confusing. You needed updraft x in the west to get to point y in the north east.No idea if 'platforming' really was used on this forum and if everybody really meant what it means.

Edit: Something I always find funny: "Back then you complained about HoT, now you're complaining about PoF - make up your minds". You sure wrote down all names of all complainers to know that the same people complained about both!

It may surprise you to know that several of the people on the forum have been arguing the same stuff for a pretty long time, and we all know each other's names. This has been an ongoing conversation.

We've already covered the difference in those conversions between confusing maps and platforming. I've maintained that platforming has been in the game since launch and it's been relatively popular. I get that some people had trouble navigate hot maps, because they found them confusing, but it wasn't the conversations we were having.

I'm happy to move the conversation to it's nice to have less confusing maps, and not let's have less platforming

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@Jana.6831 said:Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

@Jana.6831 said:Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

What's the point of replying if you're not going to read what I said. It wasn't a word, it was pages and pages of conversation. People weren't misspeaking, they were saying platforming has no place in an MMO. PoF shows otherwise.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Jana.6831 said:Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

@Jana.6831 said:Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

What's the point of replying if you're not going to read what I said. It wasn't a word, it was pages and pages of conversation. People weren't misspeaking, they were saying platforming has no place in an MMO. PoF shows otherwise.HoT used mechanics which felt clunky and wooden, requiring silly amounts of precision which didn't play well with even the slightest bit of lag. PoF uses mechanics which are designed to feel natural and fluid, with more accessible map design, i.e. you can see what you need to do, rather than kill yourself time and time again for trial and error on magical standing spots.

The issue was that HoT's mechanics made it feel like platforming was being shoehorned into the game. PoF feels like an adventure game with solid use of all three dimensions, but not a 'platformer'.

You can pat yourself on the back all you want over your interpretation of semantics, but jumping does not a platformer make, especially when jumping puzzles have been in the game since GW2 launched. The disjointed, jarring experience is what many of us objected to, so big thumbs up to the ANet team for listening to feedback.

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@calb.3128 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Jana.6831 said:Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

@Jana.6831 said:Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

What's the point of replying if you're not going to read what I said. It wasn't a word, it was pages and pages of conversation. People weren't misspeaking, they were saying platforming has no place in an MMO. PoF shows otherwise.HoT used mechanics which felt clunky and wooden, requiring silly amounts of precision which didn't play well with even the slightest bit of lag. PoF uses mechanics which are designed to feel natural and fluid, with more accessible map design, i.e. you can see what you need to do, rather than kill yourself time and time again for trial and error on magical standing spots.

The issue was that HoT's mechanics made it feel like platforming was being shoehorned into the game. PoF feels like an adventure game with solid use of all three dimensions, but not a 'platformer'.

You can pat yourself on the back all you want over your interpretation of semantics, but jumping does not a platformer make, especially when jumping puzzles have been in the game since GW2 launched. The disjointed, jarring experience is what many of us objected to, so big thumbs up to the ANet team for listening to feedback.

@calb.3128 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Jana.6831 said:Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

@Jana.6831 said:Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

What's the point of replying if you're not going to read what I said. It wasn't a word, it was pages and pages of conversation. People weren't misspeaking, they were saying platforming has no place in an MMO. PoF shows otherwise.HoT used mechanics which felt clunky and wooden, requiring silly amounts of precision which didn't play well with even the slightest bit of lag. PoF uses mechanics which are designed to feel natural and fluid, with more accessible map design, i.e. you can see what you need to do, rather than kill yourself time and time again for trial and error on magical standing spots.

The issue was that HoT's mechanics made it feel like platforming was being shoehorned into the game. PoF feels like an adventure game with solid use of all three dimensions, but not a 'platformer'.

You can pat yourself on the back all you want over your interpretation of semantics, but jumping does not a platformer make, especially when jumping puzzles have been in the game since GW2 launched. The disjointed, jarring experience is what many of us objected to, so big thumbs up to the ANet team for listening to feedback.

First of all, most people don't have more lag than me, considering I"m in Australia and our natural latency makes things harder. When HoT launched and gliding was not clientside that was an issue and after that it has stopped being an issue. It's not an issue for me and if you have more lag than me, you'd like not be able to play the game at all anyway.

Secondly people keep using the world semantics, but the conversations I had with certain people were quite in depth about what the thought and felt. It wasn't a semantic difference. It was a statement of if I wanted to play mario brothers I'd buy a console. That's not a semantic difference, it's a philosophical one. No reason to answer anyone else calling it a semantic difference, because though it might be in some cases, there were definitely cases where the point was clarified and those people are the people I'm talking to.

Edit: Hot mechanics never felt wooden or clunky to me and I'm not sure why they feel what way to you. All of it is much easier than some of the jumps you need to make on your jumperoo.

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@sorudo.9054 said:just because one xpac did it wrong doesn't mean the other should, HoT is obviously a hell for any player to platform trough yet PoF has proven that platforming can be fun.hanging on one statement, regardless of how many it has bin said, doesn't "prove" anything.

@sorudo.9054 said:just because one xpac did it wrong doesn't mean the other should, HoT is obviously a hell for any player to platform trough yet PoF has proven that platforming can be fun.hanging on one statement, regardless of how many it has bin said, doesn't "prove" anything.

That's my argument. Nothing wrong with platforming IS my argument. Thanks for backing me up.

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It's hard to have a good conversation about what was good or bad about HoT, what is good or bad about PoF. People use the exact same words to describe different things, people tend to focus on the elements important to them (to the exclusion of other ideas), and a lot of the good|bad|ugly overlaps.

The OP is entirely correct that there were entire threads (in the old forums) about platforming and how it was killing GW2. Dozens of people posted pages about how horrid HoT was because of it and with PoF, people are praising Platforming.

However, that's entirely meaningless. Maybe people who hate platforming left, so they aren't complaining about anything. Maybe they wrote about "platforming" but what they really meant was "convoluted pathing to reach a destination." PoF might have platforming built into at its core, but it's rarely tricky to figure out how to get from A to B, except for specific puzzle-y things. In contrast, I still can't find my way around most of HoT maps because it's rarely obvious to me which way to get from A to B because the connecting paths (on the mini and world map) lead me the wrong way. (I do like HoT maps though; I just struggle to find my way. A lot.)

So like nearly every conversation about "HoT is Bad" or "PoF is Great" (or vice versa), the topic is mostly a Rorschach test, allowing everyone a chance to describe the same game colored by their personal preferences and perceptions.


In other words, the OP is correct that "Platforming" wasn't the right word to describe what a subset of critics disliked about HoT.

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@Ohoni.6057 said:I like platforming, I was not one of those complaining about HoT. But I totally get the complaints. The difference here is that getting across PoF maps require relatively little platforming, and where it does exist, it's fairly straightforward, like make ONE raptor jump or ONE Springer jump onto a ledge and then keep moving. HoT maps, by comparison, had a ton of platforming just to get across the map, so if that wasn't your thing, you didn't really have any other options.

Only that's not true, simply getting across Heart of Thorns maps requires zero platforming. Especially if you unlock the relevant map mastery.And getting around Path of Fire is nightmare without all the mounts unlocked, and it's impossible to 100% all the zones without unlocking most mount mastery abilities. On the other hand in Heart of Thorns you required only a fraction of the mastery unlocks to 100% all the zones.Getting some pois, vistas and mastery points required the platforming and there similar things in Path of Fire that require even more platforming.To 100% Path of Fire you must do more platforming than to 100% Heart of Thorns

I guess it's the idea that "Heart of Thorns is hard to navigate" that became engraved into people's minds during the first weeks after release that is so hard to dismiss now.

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