Can we talk about mace?

I think of all the weapons on guardian currently mace needs the most help:

• It is arguably not meta in all three game modes currently.
• Unused almost entirely in any pve content and in wvw
• Even in pvp where it is used, sword and scepter are often times taken instead.

Why mace needs some changes or buffsRight now, I'm seeing mace as analogous to guardian's staff before the August 2018 rework: Sure it fills a role (provides support, healing, protection... ) but it really only fits well or works with a specific build in one game mode, it doesn't do a particularly good job at its role - mace does not make or break the build. You could replace mace in a Staff & Mace/Shield support build and still see the same if not better results.

Suggested changes:

• Mace 1: Reduce cast time of first two strikes to 1/4 second(down from current 1/2), increase damage of third strike.
• Mace 2: Make it function identically to axe 2 (symbol placed in front of guardian rather than directly on top of), reduce cast time to 1 second down from 1.25s, and increase the regen duration on the symbol to 1.5s up from current 1s.
• Mace 3: This is a decent skill and is the only properly balanced skill of the three. I would add a flip-over skill such that you can end mace 3 early and still receive some minor benefit or do something entirely different than the triggered block-counter attack (such as aoe heal or a projectile blocking wave for half a second).

These are the most boring and conservative changes/buffs I could come up with. The general idea is to open it up a bit more as a weapon that is usable in builds that want to provide support but may not be 100% geared into healing power/boon duration, and also make it a more robust part of a support builds.

would be cool if mace 2 did a bit more damage. I get that its supposed to be support (even tho mace 3 hits pretty hard) but hot damn the symbol is so weak lol.

Mace/shield is used in WvW.But not because its strong.

Mace just „works“ as a bit extra healing and you use the mace trait anyway so why not.

Just let mace auto heal on every strike and (Edit) decrease the casttime of the symbol.

Should be ok.

While I agree that mace is very niche role wise currently (it is a support weapon after all), remember that the mace auto attack swing 3 heals for 1.2k+ (on a full healing build) every 2 seconds. Enough to out heal most content for the group.

If mace got changed to heal on every swing (or in other ways), this would have to get reduced drastically.

Mace 2 symbol goes along the same lines. On stationary targets it provides good healing to the entire group and can easily be woven in-between mace 1 autos providing the group with auto attack heals and symbol heals strong enough to out heal a medium damage raid golem.

Mace is pretty good in a support spec. I just want Mystic Rebuke un-castrated so I can get my porcupine build back :(

I would like an increase of the radius of the symbol (mace 2). I agree that the mace 1 chain is too slow !

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Mace/shield is used in WvW.But not because its strong.

Mace just „works“ as a bit extra healing and you use the mace trait anyway so why not.

Just let mace auto heal on every strike and increase the casttime of the symbol.

Should be ok.

I know it is sometimes used and historically it was used quite a bit. I've also seen havoc squads with support guards running mace/sh & hammer, or mace/sh & staff, although in our current meta guards in both zergs and small-scale don't really use mace/sh. From talking with other guardians, the consensus on why they don't use it is that mace 3 is their only reason for using it since the other two skills are garbage in any kind of pvp setting.

Mace 2 only becomes mediocre if you trait into writ of persistence in Honor, and once again, it's an example of a specialized build needing to be taken just to make a weapon any good. Even with writ of persistence though, scepter is arguably the better choice, and if your guard build is focused on damage in any fashion, you can forget about mace entirely :/

@Arcaedus.7290 said:if your guard build is focused on damage in any fashion, you can forget about mace entirely :/

Isn't that the nature of a support weapon? Couldn't the same be said for staff?

@JDub.1530 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:if your guard build is focused on damage in any fashion, you can forget about mace entirely :/

Staff in its current iteration actually has some minor potential for power builds. It's definitely not meta but you could make it work with a dedicated build. And with a harrier's build (which can arguably be classified as support) you can actually deal some decent dps with staff as part of your rotation in pvp or wvw. Mace on the other hand has mace 3 which can very easily be landed but then mace 1 and 2 have zero offensive potential. Mace doesn't need to become an offensive weapon but adding some offence to it like they did with staff 1 and 2 with the rework wouldn't hurt imo.

I do not think mace is terrible, but it needs a nudge to make more competitive. My suggestions:

1) AA reduce the third attack cast time from 1 sec to 0.75 secs. Reduce healing by 25%.

2) Symbol, reduce cast time from 1.25 sec to 0.75 sec. It may require a reduction in the reg, but I would leave it as is, until it proves it is too much.

In my opinion the only needed change is increase in healing for auto attack third attack. Reason for this is that support FB wont be simply using their auto attack chain all the time. I always found staff to be more reliable and bursty in healing while also allowing more liberty in positioning your heals. Also, mace is more dependant on party members standing near your enemy.

Mace has been meta in WvW for a while , with 1000+ healing power it heals for quite a bit with heal modifiers. Heal scaling is 0.5 coefficient already. The heal on mace was made stronger by a large amount and aegis/protection was added, before those changes it wasn't worth taking.

@Infusion.7149 said:Mace has been meta in WvW for a while , with 1000+ healing power it heals for quite a bit with heal modifiers. Heal scaling is 0.5 coefficient already. The heal on mace was made stronger by a large amount and aegis/protection was added, before those changes it wasn't worth taking.

On paper sure, that's why I don't propose upping the healing coefficients or scaling. You have to remember though that in a zerg v zerg situation if you're in range to be hitting someone with mace, you will quite literally die before you even complete the chain. The situations where you successfully push in and aren't met with a bomb, you're better served on another weapon, or in f2 tome if healing is needed.

^^ I think that's very much inline with the risk/reward profile of the AA though. The lack of usefulness of something in a specific situation isn't a reason to buff that something. Even if the heal was frontloaded or larger or changed somehow, it wouldn't matter in the situation you describe anyways ... if you are going to die before a full AA rotation because of a zerg, almost nothing you can have will prevent that, short of adding invul to AA which no one in their right mind would suggest.

If Mace gets some attention, it can't be very much. It's one of those things that I think is best left as is because it's really not in need and Mace is actually good at what it does. The reason you state it should be buffed isn't actually a problem or a concern, especially if other weapons are available to take up the position.

That being said, as a frequent mace user, DPS isn't what I would recommend; we can't justify that in any way. What I'm not fond of is the way #3 is channeled.

Like the idea. Reasonable changes.

Mace actually isn't that bad. While a faster AA chain and larger symbol radius would be welcome for sure, I do find it pretty useful as a source of passive healing along with aegis spam. Not great during lots of movement, but against lords or whatever, it's handy. You can even bonk tower walls with it to provide some healing to your cata users while your other stuff is on cooldown.

The issue with the weapon is that it is unintuitive to the sort of gameplay it is used in. Its combination of buttons work better at smaller scales but there other aspects of gameplay also become more important and other weapons become better alternatives.

At larger scale it becomes counter-intuitive to the gameplay with effects that late in a "cycle" of sorts. By the time you could land a three-chain or reasonably placed symbol you could also dodge, and break the chain or wind-up, or swap back to staff also to break it. Timing combinations of those things is more difficult at larger scale and less effective because healing has a different role there of keeping sustenance rather than countering high pressure.

That is also why players never really stay on Mace. People tend to swap and chain off Mace 3 with OH 4 and 5, then go back to staff. The other buttons are only really used if there is an opportunity to tag something. So a smaller heal on every auto and a quicker release of the symbol does make sense should someone want to change Mace. That, or different mechanics like cone- or reticle effects but reinventing the wheel feels unecessary with the total weapon setup being in a good place.

I do not think the issue with mace is it does not work as a heal weapon. It does not work as a group heal weapon. Also, it does not work well as a support weapon or damage weapon. It is it is too sucepitable to interrupts.

It needs a better niche. In my opinion, it should offer less heal, better damage and less susceptiblelity to interrupts.

@otto.5684 said:I do not think the issue with mace is it does not work as a heal weapon. It does not work as a group heal weapon. Also, it does not work well as a support weapon or damage weapon. It is it is too sucepitable to interrupts.

It needs a better niche. In my opinion, it should offer less heal, better damage and less susceptiblelity to interrupts.

It's niche is (was) aegis/damage avoidance. Skill 3 blocks an attack against you OR allies, so you can use it to prevent damage to your group. It also hits like a truck if your timing is good enough to get it to trigger, so you're rewarded for using it right. You do(did) damage by covering your group and playing off your allies, isntead of the enemy. It also procs aegis and protection, so it combined really well with Mystic Rebuke before it was nerfed. It works(/ed) really well with shield or focus, which could put out a lot of blocks.

The AA is weak, but the healing radius should be increased to 300 IMO so it can actually hit some allies once in a while. Skill 2 is not bad once it's traited but it's basically just filler. It'd be better if it gave vigor instead of giving regen, but it's not the main point of the weapon so meh.

My main issue with Mace is that Mystic Rebuke got castrated, so that entire gameplay style of playing off your allies is dead now. Preventing damage for your group is not strong enough by itself to compensate for doing no DPS, especially with the proliferation of unblockables. The entire 'offensive support' build was already situational, and now it's completely dead and I'm pretty pissed that they killed it not out of a real balance need but just because of a blanket policy about 'instant damage traits' that they put in accross the board without thinking about how it would actually affect each class. MR was a keystone trait to type of gameplay that no other class has access to, and now is basically removed from the game.

I dropped mace on my firebrand and replaced it with axe. Axe 3 gives nice pull.

Ranger GS has a 1s evade on its 3rd auto chain.

Perhaps put this onto Mace's Faithful Strike to justify the slow attack speed with no gap closing ability, then move the heal to Pure strike.

(Sword has 600 teleport, Axe has 600 pull, Scepter is 900 range).

Guardian symbols always felt dumb way to do AOEdamage, they should have their own mechanics, ofensy or defense or even wide team support, guardian figthing inside a symbol could have diferente effects deppending the weapon they are using, Anet was always a slacker in terms of findind interesting mechinics to play with on combat, one of the reason balance on this game is a bit idiotic towards gimmick gameplay rather than clever play.

Symbol on mace 2 could have the adition of reduce X% damage or boost receiving healing while caster fights inside it.

Mace 3 is useful, skill 2 is ok, skill 1 is awful due to the slow attack.

Mace 1 needs to have healing on every strike and the 3rd strike needs a .25s cast reduction.

Imo, mace 2 symbol should have its damage removed entirely. Trying to pretend that mace is ever meant for damage is a joke.Instead, it should grant protection, regen, and aegis per tick. This would combine with Invigorated Bulwark, giving you tons of aegis. It would also combine with Pure of Heart to heal quite a lot.

Likewise i would halve the damage from Mace 3. Instead, grant aegis, 2 stacks of stab for 5s, and healing in an aoe to 5 targets in ~180 range (aprox range of the animation, maybe a bit more)

Aegis is supposed to be guardian's thing. Considering that it is incredibly limited in its utility, why do so few things grant it. Mace's trait is built around blocking, so give it tons of block.

Of course it is a niche weapon for support/healer build, heal, regen with pretty low CD if traited (perma symbol with alacrity too), and a block for allies that grant aegis (this skill is really strong, 2 blocks in one skill)... why would you buff dmg ?Remember when Mace was stronger than sword at the release of 3 Specs templates ? Absurd.I'm okai with the symbol that could be more like the axe, it would help when auto-run or on bosses, but it is not bad like that.