The Primordial Gods and the Imbalance of Tyria — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Primordial Gods and the Imbalance of Tyria

Gern.2978Gern.2978 Member ✭✭

I was re-watching some old Wooden Potatoes videos the other day, and one of them was talking about the "Bloodstone Madness" and how that might explain why the Elder Dragons are so aggressive. Potatoes theorized that perhaps they've consumed so much magic that they became insane, that they developed a "need" to just keep consuming as much as possible. He also theorized that perhaps the Dragons are like "conduits" to specific spheres of magic, and that's one way they keep the magic of Tyria in balance.

But there's something that doesn't add up in that, or even the lore we know so far about the Elder Dragons. They _are _ an essential part of the Tyrian ecosystem, "The All." They keep the magic in balance. But they seem to be acting in a way that is...well...wrong. They're too aggressive to be acting naturally if they're a necessary part of balance in Tyria. And how could they have "magic madness" if their entire role is to consume magic? They should be immune to such things if they are behaving how they're supposed to. And this fact is echoed by Glint's own plan to replace them with beings that share magic rather than horde it. And by the fact that Glint herself was "cleansed of corruption" by the Forgotten. How could she be "cleansed of corruption" if she was behaving how she naturally was meant to? What was she "corrupted" with?

So, that made me think what could have happened to throw everything off balance and make the Elder Dragons insane? And then I thought: what if there were originally 12 Elder Dragon-type beings on Tyria, instead of merely 6? If something happened to the other 6, that would throw everything off balance and possibly drive the remaining 6 elder dragons insane. And perhaps those other 6 entities were the original 6 gods that The Six replaced? We know that humans can become gods merely by absorbing massive amounts of magical energy, typically by killing a god and absorbing their power. We saw Kormir do this in GW1, and we know that there was a god that predated Abbadon called "Arachnia." We also know that Grenth was once mortal, but absorbed Dhuum's power to ascend to godhood, although he did this without killing Dhuum.

Playing the cliff side fractal again made me think of something else: what if the very first humans secretly (secretly in the sense that none of the other races knew about it) came to Tyria much longer ago than we thought? Like, over ten thousand years ago. And those original humans killed five of the primordial gods and took their power? It's possible that was the ritual we were seeing in the cliff side fractal, that the Colossus was one of those primordial gods, and the Legendary Archdiviner was an early human attempting to take it's power to become a god.

We know that the original planet that humans and their gods fled was wracked by strife. Perhaps, after killing 5 of Tyria's primordial gods, Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, and Abbadon, returned to their world to use their new power in that war, which over 7 thousand years left their world uninhabitable, so they returned to Tyria with the surviving humans. But they realized then what they had done to the world thousands of years ago. So when Grenth went to defeat Dhuum, they knew they couldn't just kill him or else it would send the planet into further Chaos. Because since humans are alien to Tyria they aren't connected to "The All," and thus can absorb the power of a primordial god, but not take it's place in "The All" to maintain magical balance. So they had to imprison Dhuum (who had also perhaps been driven insane by the magical imbalance) instead of killing him.

This would explain why The Six seem connected to the Elder Dragons, and yet...not. Their power comes from a related source. It also would explain why the Elder Dragons seem to be acting in a manner contradictory to their purpose and nature, and why they're "corrupted." This also could set up the story for Guild Wars 3 after we've dealt with the Elder Dragons.

Comments

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    @Gern.2978 said:
    How could she be "cleansed of corruption" if she was behaving how she naturally was meant to? What was she "corrupted" with?

    She was corrupted by Kralkatorrik, to make this clear.

    So, that made me think what could have happened to throw everything off balance and make the Elder Dragons insane? And then I thought: what if there were originally 12 Elder Dragon-type beings on Tyria, instead of merely 6? If something happened to the other 6, that would throw everything off balance and possibly drive the remaining 6 elder dragons insane. And perhaps those other 6 entities were the original 6 gods that The Six replaced? We know that humans can become gods merely by absorbing massive amounts of magical energy, typically by killing a god and absorbing their power. We saw Kormir do this in GW1, and we know that there was a god that predated Abbadon called "Arachnia." We also know that Grenth was once mortal, but absorbed Dhuum's power to ascend to godhood, although he did this without killing Dhuum.

    Multiple corrections:
    1. Normal humans that absorb too much magic go insane, just like the Bloodstone-Crazed madness situation. We see this with bounties in PoF and S4. We also see this happening to harpies, Awakened, giants, and various wildlife creatures. Kormir was only able to absorb Abaddon's power safely because she was granted a unique blessing allowing her to do so.
    2. Arachnia is not canon lore. The name was pulled from the dat.
    3. Grenth was not mortal, technically, but a demigod at the time. The fact that demigods could even exist is curious in of itself.
    4. The Clincher: The Six Gods arrived on the world of Tyria as gods already. They did not absorb an Elder Dragon's power to become divine beings. It's even suggested in Nightfall that they've been gods for a very, very long time. Since "the First Sun".

    Playing the cliff side fractal again made me think of something else: what if the very first humans secretly (secretly in the sense that none of the other races knew about it) came to Tyria much longer ago than we thought? Like, over ten thousand years ago.

    We have no given date for when humans arrived on Tyria. They very well could have arrived during the previous Elder Dragon.

    We know that the original planet that humans and their gods fled was wracked by strife.

    Technically we do not. We suspect it was, but have no concrete proof of such.

    Perhaps, after killing 5 of Tyria's primordial gods, Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, and Abbadon, returned to their world to use their new power in that war, which over 7 thousand years left their world uninhabitable, so they returned to Tyria with the surviving humans. But they realized then what they had done to the world thousands of years ago. So when Grenth went to defeat Dhuum, they knew they couldn't just kill him or else it would send the planet into further Chaos. Because since humans are alien to Tyria they aren't connected to "The All," and thus can absorb the power of a primordial god, but not take it's place in "The All" to maintain magical balance. So they had to imprison Dhuum (who had also perhaps been driven insane by the magical imbalance) instead of killing him.

    This would explain why The Six seem connected to the Elder Dragons, and yet...not. Their power comes from a related source. It also would explain why the Elder Dragons seem to be acting in a manner contradictory to their purpose and nature, and why they're "corrupted." This also could set up the story for Guild Wars 3 after we've dealt with the Elder Dragons.

    The main issue for this theory, in addition to the fact that the Six were gods upon arriving on the world, is that divine magic and dragon magic are heavily suggested to be innately opposing forces of magic. From the Foefire, to the Divine Fire in Season 2, to Kormir's protection over Sun's Refuge, the Forgotten (and thus Exalted's) magic, and more, it is suggested that divine magic is something unique that the Elder Dragons cannot corrupt or consume. Even Balthazar's magic that got devoured was not divine magic, but power from the Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag twisted to emulate his former divine magic that was stripped from him between the two games.

    Furthermore, Dhuum was of The Six, so he could not be one of these supposed "primordial gods".

    And lastly, based on the rules we've been seeing, the Elder Dragons could not take in these six domains stolen by the gods under this theory; it would mean that each Elder Dragon has a singular domain still. But in addition to that, you still run into the massive issue that the overlap stops halfway, and this theory requires that the overlap is 100% perfect between domains.

    You're also stuck on the secondary domains of the gods = the primary domains of the dragons, which by your theory should be opposite if the Elder Dragons were to somehow get these additional spheres (primary domain of the gods = secondary domain of the dragons). In the end:

    • There is still no confirmed Elder Dragon domain of Life, Air, Illusion, Beauty, Knowledge, War, Water, or Nature. Granted, Air and Water are likely under Kralk's second and the DSD's primary so that may get scratched off the list eventually.
    • There is no God of Shadow, Plant, Mind, or Crystal.

    Granted that we don't know the secondary domain of four of the Elder Dragons, nor the primary of one, but that still wouldn't allow a lineup because there is no God of Crystals out there. Even if one were to argue Lyssa's Beauty and Illusion is the same as Crystal and Mind, and Melandru's Nature is Plant, we're still lacking a god of shadow (as Grenth is Death and Ice). But then we're going back to the original idea that the Six Gods have all the same domains as the Elder Dragons' 12, and not that the Gods merely took 6 of the domains.

    If we go at just the Six's primary domains, that'd be: Death, Life, Nature, Knowledge, War, and Beauty.

    While we do have a Death dragon, that is Zhaitan's primary domain, not secondary. So if the Six killed six Elder Dragons in the past, they'd have killed an Elder Shadow Dragon and an Elder Mind Dragon (along with whatever is the secondary domains of the other four - if common theory holds: Air, Spirit, and Earth for Kralkatorrik, Jormag, and Primordus).

    Unfortunately, Shadow, Mind, Air, Spirit, Earth, and "variable" doesn't line up with Death, Life, Nature, Knowledge, War, and Beauty.

    So this theory is even further off than before.

    But to nip it all in the bud after the fact all this argument:

    @Jessica Price.1649 said:
    Elder Dragons are native to Tyria, and the human gods are from elsewhere, so as far as them being related: no.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/494601/#Comment_494601

    There's also the fact that The All only has six spheres, not twelve. The spheres, while connected to the Elder Dragons, are suggested to represent the magic itself, or spiritual domains depending on your interpreter. Even when we get a simulation of it in Season 3, Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's spheres remain despite the domains being taken over by Kralkatorrik and Primordus; they're just inert.

    So to this question:

    They _are _ an essential part of the Tyrian ecosystem, "The All." They keep the magic in balance. But they seem to be acting in a way that is...well...wrong. They're too aggressive to be acting naturally if they're a necessary part of balance in Tyria. And how could they have "magic madness" if their entire role is to consume magic?

    While the Elder Dragons do fulfill a required role, nothing suggests that they are the first to fulfill that role, and they are not necessary to be the one to fulfill the role; as the entirety of Glint's legacy is meant to replace the old Elder Dragons with more benevolent Elder Dragons.

    It'd be akin to a king being a necessary part of a monarchy, but the king is a tyrant so how could they be evil if they're necessary?

    P.S., yet another GW3 thread. :grimace:

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