Damage Meters ruin enjoyment of content — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Damage Meters ruin enjoyment of content

Mad As Hell.2168Mad As Hell.2168 Member
edited February 9, 2019 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

<134

Comments

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Okay, I'm not pro damage meter, though I've cooled off on them some over the years and no longer am anti-damage meter either. I don't use one though.

    That said, this complaint is baseless. A million people playing the game, and one person said something to you. Well, as it happens that person was using a damage meter. I've had people say things to me in game that have nothing to do with a damage meter. They're simply kittens. Now, as it happens, if there are a million people playing a game, and 1% of them are kittens, it means there are a whole lot of kittens running around. No one can remove every obnoxious player from the game.

    The damage meter wasn't at fault there, the player was. I've been yelled at by guys for using different skills and weapons than they would have chosen without a damage meter involved.

    I'm not saying that guy didn't abuse the damage meter. I'm saying that you have no way of knowing if he'd have said something to you even without one. People still used to look and notice other stuff.

    Blame the guy not the tool. That's my advice. Because damage meters have been in the game for a long long time.

  • Cyanchiv.2583Cyanchiv.2583 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2019

    Gratz on your first two paragraphs.

    So what you encountered is unfortunate, as it seems like you are upset about someone complaining about dps in content that is not difficult enough to warrant meta builds. I agree with you that T4 fractals are not challenging enough to require meta builds in order to have success in a timely manner.

    Dps meters are not the source of the mentality you encountered, however, as this mentality was around long before Dps meters were available in this game. Many dungeon runs used to require 5 greatsword warriors, which we now know would not have been the most effective combination. Dps meters helped us know which builds will be the most effective in the hardest content, but it is the player who will use it to create unpleasant experiences like you had.

    If someone else is causing you to no longer have fun, I can only suggest blocking that person. There are plenty of other T4 fractal groups out there and that player isn't required for you to be successful.

  • Cobrakon.3108Cobrakon.3108 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2019

    You know its frustrating because of a couple reasons.
    The content is not hard enough so you can have people get free damage in and do mindless rotations. So the damage meters don't say skill... they more say... Build choice, equipment, and rotation memorization.

    Something that would help with this would be to lower hp of bosses but make them harder to hit because of avoiding damage yourself and other mechanics.... NOT MECHANICS YOU CAN HEAL THROUGH WITH HEALERS.... more self reliant stuff. Man oh man the elitism would vanish over night. The brainless rotation practicing and grind to win elitists would be silenced.

    I want to also make a note that the funnest runs of fracs or any dungeon were always pugs. With pugs its not super meta so you have people getting downed so you have all this Damage>pop shadow refuge heal> dodge> Damage.... and less of that "stack together and do max damage" in one spot BS.

    it should be less about multiple rotations in a row and more about dealing big dmg in a small time frame or dealing damage but never feeling comfortable about staying in one spot.

    And another thing if you were rezzing people and doing other things then you probably boosted damage for the team.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm sure this debate has happened countless times in the past but I am unaware because the subject holds no interest to me but I once did hold a fascination about the veil of ambiguity and what it does to the community. That being, if more and more of the core mechanics are hidden away, how it affects player choice and interest.

    I'm sure there are plenty of players who enjoy the game more because damage meters and transparency of the mechanics but then there are those that enjoy discovery, experimentation and collaboration with regards to figuring out how the cogs work behind the scenes. Personally, I would always just read in intrigue when players put forward numbers and hypothesis but didn't participate but it always felt....I dunno, healthy? There would, of course, be players that blindly latch onto the theories and numbers despite them not being correct (wrong people are gonna be wrong lol) but because there wasn't a concrete factor to it, this kept the amount of such players in check (some might use those theories but remain skeptical and unsure).

    So to GW2. Replace hypothesis or theory with numbers. Exchange experimentation with parsing. Compare those who blindly latched onto ambiguous number tests to those that blindly latch onto out-of-context maxed builds.

    I'm not picking sides or saying one situation was better, rather looking at the relationship between the hardcore number crunchers, the early adopter groups that follow those numbers, those that don't and the many players that float between the groups. Just like the numbers and mechanics being more concrete, so are the groups and so is the intent behind those groups. You then get this atmosphere where you've got people at each other's throats, being forced to BROADCAST how non-hardcore pro-casual a group is, heated discussions of who is right and who is in the wrong. etc etc.

    Long aside concluded, I think much of the game's ambiguity has shifted toward drops/drop rates which is the most boring thing in the world lol.

  • Puging is hell. It is known.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    in Aquatic? Really? That is a next level of toxic stupidity.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Whenever these threads pop up I just fail to see how the damage meters have had anything to do with it.

    I wouldn't want to go back to a time where people try to get carried through the fact that nobody can 100% tell it is their fault, unless they fail mechanics. Most people would figure that out anyway, but it will be more annoying for them as well as anybody else.

    Logging out forever.

  • @Mad As Hell.2168 said:
    Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

    I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

    I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

    Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

    Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

    As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

    This is not meters fault. Its toxic players fault he probly tried too shift blame

  • You then get this atmosphere where you've got people at each other's throats, being forced to BROADCAST how non-hardcore pro-casual a group is, heated discussions of who is right and who is in the wrong. etc etc.

    That happens whenever passionate people have trouble handling disagreements. It's not new to GW2 this month or when the first DPS meter appeared. It's not new to MMOs. It's not even new to RPG-style gaming. (For some people, half of playing pen & paper D&D was the arguments, which might or might not have been healthy.)

    The difference is that in the past, without meters, people latched on to arbitrary criteria. And, as in the OP's specific example, toxic individuals sometimes lose sight of the goals and lose their skritt over whether their party colleagues were doing things the "right way." Instead of yelling about DPS, they'd yell about stacking might or whether you should or should not stealth through this corridor.

    There might be an argument about whether DPS meters belong in games, especially this one. But the OP didn't make that argument. They put out one of the most extreme examples of someone unclear on the concepts and claimed outright that this would not have happened if not for the DPS meter. That's theoretically possible, but under these specific circumstances, it's all but impossible.

    Heated discussions happen because people are passionate about the game. Some people can handle that and some can't.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2019

    @Khisanth.2948 said:
    It's pretty common that people don't even have lv80 underwater weapons ...

    ...there was that time when we've realized, in the middle of aquatic, that the only person with a level 80 underwater weapon was the druid (that was on druid only because they didn't want to switch class just for that one fractal). All the rest had greens from level 40 to 60.
    (same with aquatic breathers. And none had any rune in their breather slotted either. Oh, the horror).

    No tocixity was noticed. Even though the druid did end up outdpsing everyone else.

    (seriously, someone complained about dps in aquatic of all the places? that's a good joke. I'd have had a good laugh)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Had you considered that maybe the person talking trash was a complete moron? Honestly, why would anyone ever care how much damage you deal in aquatic ruins?

    Damage meters are a useful tool. Unfortunately, some people are too stupid to use them properly.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Had you considered that maybe the person talking trash was a complete moron? Honestly, why would anyone ever care how much damage you deal in aquatic ruins?

    Damage meters are a useful tool. Unfortunately, some people are too stupid to use them properly.

    I suspect there are also a number of cargo cultist out there...

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2019

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Mad As Hell.2168 said:
    Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

    I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

    I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

    Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

    Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

    As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

    This is not meters fault. Its toxic players fault he probly tried too shift blame

    Its not a 'fault' thing. its whether the tool can be misinterpreted or misused within contexts where they are just not required. damager meters focus on 1 thing, damage and there is a segment of the player base that can't comprehend that when a group does well over 100% of the required dps to complete an instance, more dps is not necessarily a priority. Prime example, today i was in a group and 1 absolute idiot complained and argued and abused someone because they were 'shocked' by somebody's low dps. Thing is we were destroying everything and flying through the instance. Fortunately the leader ignord him and he eventually emo left. If there was not a meter that idiot would not have had data to misinterpret. As well as this, there is a % of meter users are motivated to 'win' the meter race, we have all seen it in many games and they are disruptive and sometime obnoxious.

    A Meter can be a good tool, but like every tool, they have their place and time to use.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Mad As Hell.2168 said:
    Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

    I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

    I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

    Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

    Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

    As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

    This is not meters fault. Its toxic players fault he probly tried too shift blame

    Its not a 'fault' thing. its whether the tool can be misinterpreted or misused within contexts where they are just not required. damager meters focus on 1 thing, damage and there is a segment of the player base that can't comprehend that when a group does well over 100% of the required dps to complete an instance, more dps is not necessarily a priority. Prime example, today i was in a group and 1 absolute idiot complained and argued and abused someone because they were 'shocked' by somebody's low dps. Thing is we were destroying everything and flying through the instance. Fortunately the leader ignord him and he eventually emo left. If there was not a meter that idiot would not have had data to misinterpret. As well as this, there is a % of meter users are motivated to 'win' the meter race, we have all seen it in many games and they are disruptive and sometime obnoxious.

    A Meter can be a good tool, but like every tool, they have their place and time to use.

    That person would have whined anyway to the whole group since they couldent pinpoint who was the low damage dealer just that someone were depending on how fast stuff melted.

  • Without DPS meters, Necros would still be kicked from raids just by virtue of them being a Necro and not a Thief/Ele/etc, because of the initial stigma over their damage performance when the game first launched.

    DPS meters opened up a diverse range of builds and allowed more classes and comps than ever to enjoy raid content, just because people can see what works now rather than having to guess.

    And you want to take that away from a community you're not even a part of, all because of one jerk in an ezmode Fractal?

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2019

    It was just some guy that had no idea where he was and how the game is played. I doubt dps elitism is a often occurrence in Aquatic Ruins (LMAO - like where did this guy came from).

    Chill just one weird player that would be weird anyway (meter or not) does not justify a reaction with all the cats that you have been throwing around in your post. I would be more amused than anything else.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Mad As Hell.2168 said:
    Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote.

    what makes you think that people would not get toxic about your damage, when they cant use a damage meter? people used to do that even without meter. now if they do so, they at least do it based on your damage and not their assumptions. the problem here is not the meter, its toxic players.

    This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot -at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

    spear is pretty awesome on thief since the rework to underwater skills and most certainly deals way more damage than harpoon gun, give it a try.

    Which is exactly why Anet needs to be more active about giving these toxic players a "time out" the second they say anything not doing enough damage, or criticizing anything about another players play in general. Could further even add outright kicking people for such things. For example, say I join you and another 3 players in a fractal. Even with no damage meter, but it's somehow perceived in your eyes I'm not doing enough damage. So you then start criticizing or in some way are vocal that you are not happy with my damage. It would be not your concern how I play, but if you were to be so headstrong on the types of people you want in your group, then you need to create a closed group. So I report you as such, and within 24 hours Anet should nail you with a month ban. That's what needs to occur. How many people do we think would continue such behavior if their behavior (like what the OP experienced) was immediately met with a 1 month ban 100% of the time, every time they even remotely criticized another player? I'm not singling you out, I'm just using us an example.

    Damage meters aren't the cause of the bad behavior, but they certainly perpetuate it.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Mad As Hell.2168 said:
    Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote.

    what makes you think that people would not get toxic about your damage, when they cant use a damage meter? people used to do that even without meter. now if they do so, they at least do it based on your damage and not their assumptions. the problem here is not the meter, its toxic players.

    This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot -at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

    spear is pretty awesome on thief since the rework to underwater skills and most certainly deals way more damage than harpoon gun, give it a try.

    Which is exactly why Anet needs to be more active about giving these toxic players a "time out" the second they say anything not doing enough damage, or criticizing anything about another players play in general. Could further even add outright kicking people for such things. For example, say I join you and another 3 players in a fractal. Even with no damage meter, but it's somehow perceived in your eyes I'm not doing enough damage. So you then start criticizing or in some way are vocal that you are not happy with my damage. It would be not your concern how I play, but if you were to be so headstrong on the types of people you want in your group, then you need to create a closed group. So I report you as such, and within 24 hours Anet should nail you with a month ban. That's what needs to occur. How many people do we think would continue such behavior if their behavior (like what the OP experienced) was immediately met with a 1 month ban 100% of the time, every time they even remotely criticized another player? I'm not singling you out, I'm just using us an example.

    Damage meters aren't the cause of the bad behavior, but they certainly perpetuate it.

    well i usually leave groups before i criticize them.

    however the one that does criticize is not always the one being 'toxic'. sometimes its the one entering a group on LFG that he doesnt meet the requirements to. there is also people that mistake an advise as criticism. if the LFG UI was better so that one could specify the requirements better without having to type a wall, there could be less issues.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Question: can any random person with a dps meter monitor my damage output, even if I'm not teamed up with them? If so, then dps meters should be banned immediately, if not sooner! :angry:

  • Shivvies.3921Shivvies.3921 Member ✭✭✭

    @GW Noob.6038 said:
    Question: can any random person with a dps meter monitor my damage output, even if I'm not teamed up with them? If so, then dps meters should be banned immediately, if not sooner! :angry:

    No. You need to be grouped with them. In groups, people usually only look at the area stats whenever there is a problem with clearing anyway. I mean, at least that's how I use the tool on top of bettering my own skills.

  • blambidy.3216blambidy.3216 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mad As Hell.2168 said:
    Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

    I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

    I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

    Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

    Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

    As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

    Idk why people still come on here and ask for arcdps to be updated when arcdps is not supported by anet. So you have to go on arcs site to do that. Second t4s technically do matter for dps. If people can't dps, the fractals take longer then usual. t4s should only be between 30-45 mins depending on the frac maps. But saying you pug everyday on t4s doesnt sound like you actually do since everyone would be complaining about your dps. Also achievement points, legendaries mean completely nothing within this game compared to actual experience within the raid/t4 community. You can have all you want. But if you do not understand rotations, what you have means completely nothing. I'm not here to bash however me personally, I don't care how much damage as long as we can get through fractals perfectly fine. But if your a person who does drag down everyone, it would be nice if people did adjust their rotations for the group. But I do agree with you that underwater combat in fractals is hypocritical if people who do t4s, when you do t4 aquatic, there are no underwater rotations, builds, etc tested on it. So its a dumb point. And those people should be bashed for toxicity.

    What I am saying is, dps actually does matter in t4s, but not as much as people portray it. After all not everyone is like SC, MNF etc. But people should know something so people can pull their weight. Also dps doesn't matter in pvp sad to say. Actually arcdps will not show within the pvp maps. But people can tell if your using an unusual pvp build. But that still goes unless your doin ranked, I don't think people should be trippin over it since its technically scaled.

    As much as I do agree with people not bashing people within game. Some things I have to say is, do not join pvp if you can't handle when someone does bash. Do not join raids if you can't handle bashing. Do not join t4s also. Do not join wvw if you can't handle bashing ether. All these are some what end game content where damage, mecahanics, team work truly matter. So if people don't want to work harder for the group, you shouldn't do it. Don't just be bunnies running into the content and get mad when someone is bashing at you. Study these mechanics, builds, maps, pvp, t4s etc. Because if you do not do these things, bashing will happen when pugging, or even within the guild.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    That happens whenever passionate people have trouble handling disagreements. It's not new to GW2 this month or when the first DPS meter appeared. It's not new to MMOs. It's not even new to RPG-style gaming. (For some people, half of playing pen & paper D&D was the arguments, which might or might not have been healthy.)

    The difference is that in the past, without meters, people latched on to arbitrary criteria. And, as in the OP's specific example, toxic individuals sometimes lose sight of the goals and lose their skritt over whether their party colleagues were doing things the "right way." Instead of yelling about DPS, they'd yell about stacking might or whether you should or should not stealth through this corridor.

    People still latch onto arbitrary criteria. The difference actually is, who is right and who is wrong. Taking into account the OP's absurd example, those "toxic individuals" you're singling out aren't actually wrong in considerations of base level of understanding and group composition and at best you can dismiss them as "toxic" but that doesn't actually do anything to change the dynamic between the groups. It's separating them on an arbitrary criteria of moral nit-pickery as elitists.

    I never said that these disagreements didn't exist before, it's just now you draw a more solid line in the sand of who is factually right and who is choosing a position on principles that are personal. What I was trying to describe before is when the game involved is more ambiguous, so are those sides and the lines between them. Of course, heated discussions will happen regardless, but it's much easier to shut down one side when there are numbers to back them up or the only thing you've got to counter is "Pft...those people are just being toxic". It's honestly the most laughable way I could imagine dismissing an argument considering how often the word toxic pops up in online conversation.

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    The difference actually is, who is right and who is wrong.

    "Right and wrong" don't enter into it most of the time. People are going to disagree and sometimes there are multiple appropriate ways of tackling content.

    It's separating them on an arbitrary criteria of moral nit-pickery as elitists.

    I don't think labeling people as nit-pickers or elitists helps. There's nothing inherently wrong with picking nits or being elitist (after all, who would want to hire the second best-for-the-money lawyer to defend one in court?). The issue is that some people have trouble expressing their opinion in a way that helps complete the content.

    In the OP's case, it's true that the person was wrong about what was important, but they also chose to express it in a way that was unlikely to lead to anyone having a better experience.

    Had they just said, "don't we need more DPS for this fight?" the reactions would have been different, especially if they had accepted, "no, because the big jelly fish will die soon enough that we don't really care."

    I never said that these disagreements didn't exist before, it's just now you draw a more solid line in the sand of who is factually right and who is choosing a position on principles that are personal.

    Again, being factually correct largely doesn't matter. People can be "right" and still express it in a way that makes things worse. And people can be wrong in a way that might result in a conversation that leads all party members to a better place.

    it's much easier to shut down one side

    If your goal is to "shut down one side."

    "Pft...those people are just being toxic". It's honestly the most laughable way I could imagine dismissing an argument considering how often the word toxic pops up in online conversation.

    Except ... the point is that the OP was blaming the DPS meter (the tool you claim is useful for shutting down an argument), whereas the fundamental issue was the person who used the DPS meter was a jerk about it.

    The OP's argument, as stated in the title, is:

    Damage Meters ruin enjoyment of content

    And they used a single, specific bad experience to back up that claim.

    It's a claim that lacks rhetorical merit, in part because it extrapolates from one example (out of tens of thousands of counter examples), i.e. it wasn't in any way a typical example of how DPS meters are used. It was a typical example in how a minority of people choose to communicate; the DPS meter is a red herring.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • I agree with those who say that DPS meters on their own do not ruin the enjoyment of playing the game. People who use them to put others down are to blame. I also agree that DPS meters can be useful and can help players to improve. However, I also think that, unfortunately, DPS meters promote one and only one playstyle: the one based on hitting as hard and as fast as humanly possible. While it is a fine approach for many players, especially young and agile, it may not work very well for others.

    Older people or people with disabilities may prefer slower, but safer and more relaxing playstyles that do not put too much stress on them and their bodies. DPS meters are incapable of analysing strategies and show just a 'lack' of damage, which often leads to harassment and toxic comments.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    "Right and wrong" don't enter into it most of the time. People are going to disagree and sometimes there are multiple appropriate ways of tackling content.

    Perhaps "right and wrong" has a bad connotation. "Correct and Incorrect" do enter into discussions quite often. People can disagree all day, but when you're in a debate or argument, you're trying to convince others of your position and being correct is crucial regardless of what principle you decide to adhere to.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    It's separating them on an arbitrary criteria of moral nit-pickery as elitists.

    I don't think labeling people as nit-pickers or elitists helps.

    But many people resorted to that very argument in this thread. But then you're taking that quote out of the context of the post. I'm not arguing which side has the moral high ground or the better principle of intent but rather when you tip the scales of information to one side, you're inherently favoring the individuals that need those things to push their agenda whether that is ambiguity or hard parsed data. It's not an argument, it's an observation. How it affects the community of an MMO is my point.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Again, being factually correct largely doesn't matter. People can be "right" and still express it in a way that makes things worse. And people can be wrong in a way that might result in a conversation that leads all party members to a better place.

    Probably the worst statement you've said so far, probably because it's drawing lines in the sand based on moral principle. Because you can still be factually correct and present it so in a manner that is more helpful than being factually incorrect and leads to a wild spread of misinformation. There is no black/white and you try to express that there isn't...by presenting a black and white counter argument?

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    it's much easier to shut down one side

    If your goal is to "shut down one side."

    Your goal doesn't have to be shutting someone down. You can do so by simply presenting relevant information.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Except ... the point is that the OP was blaming the DPS meter (the tool you claim is useful for shutting down an argument), whereas the fundamental issue was the person who used the DPS meter was a jerk about it.

    The OP's argument, as stated in the title, is:

    Damage Meters ruin enjoyment of content

    And they used a single, specific bad experience to back up that claim.

    It's a claim that lacks rhetorical merit, in part because it extrapolates from one example (out of tens of thousands of counter examples), i.e. it wasn't in any way a typical example of how DPS meters are used. It was a typical example in how a minority of people choose to communicate; the DPS meter is a red herring.

    Unfortunately, I'm not the OP nor did I quote the OP but I did make a post on the topic. You can make an argument against the OP for the example he presented but it's markedly futile to hold their argument against others who aren't using said argument. That being said, I do have a tendency of playing Devil's Advocate in forum discussions primarily because I tend to look at arguments from both (or multiple) sides rather than just taking the side I likely agree with and running with it.

  • jwaz.1908jwaz.1908 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree with the OP. The arguement that it's the people who are toxic and not because of the meter itself is false. The dps meter causes toxicity since it promotes rivalry and elitism, and causes you to focus more on min/max than actually enjoying the content. I tried using one and found myself obsessing over who was top dps in the squad.

    I dont mind the inclusion of having a personal dps meter, because then you're focused on improving yourself, not being better than others or judging them for lacking dps.

    Henge of Denravi - Equinox Solstice [TIME]
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Jwaz

  • If you are going to play an online game and engage in random grouping, be prepared for people to act in a manner other than you might want. If you choose to group with random strangers, expect that you are doing so at your own risk. Contrary to the beliefs of the meter haters, there has always been -- and always will be-- a chance to encounter kittens in random grouping.

    MMO insanity: expecting every group of random strangers on the internet to behave in an inclusive, rational manner.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • I remember when the meta for dungeons was 4 gs warriors and 1 mes because people didnt think other classes could do damage. Would people rather go back to that, where the majority of classes were pretty much banned from all group content? In all pve content, the meta will always revolve around trying to obtain maximum dps. Damage meters are a very important tool in overcoming challenging content because they tell you if you are under-performing. If you are doing half the typical dps (which i have seen a lot), what gives you the right to hold back 4 other people?

    The people who are toxic because of damage meters will still be toxic without them, for other reasons like dying or messing up boss mechanics. No matter how well you perform, someone will always be able to find fault in what you are doing. In your case it sounds like the guy was being an idiot. No one should care about dps in the underwater fractal. However if people consistently complain about your dps, maybe its time to practice dps rotations instead of getting carried through content.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I agree with those who say that DPS meters on their own do not ruin the enjoyment of playing the game. People who use them to put others down are to blame. I also agree that DPS meters can be useful and can help players to improve. However, I also think that, unfortunately, DPS meters promote one and only one playstyle: the one based on hitting as hard and as fast as humanly possible. While it is a fine approach for many players, especially young and agile, it may not work very well for others.

    Older people or people with disabilities may prefer slower, but safer and more relaxing playstyles that do not put too much stress on them and their bodies. DPS meters are incapable of analysing strategies and show just a 'lack' of damage, which often leads to harassment and toxic comments.

    a DPS meter can be used to optimize every playstyle not just max clearspeed.
    but i think there is no popular guide with builds and strats to clear t4s and raids more relaxing and safe, you will mainly be directed to the speedclear stuff. however if there was one and that being more accepted and the norm among PUGs, then i guess there would be more players attending that content.
    id rather have someone with a build that performs reliably on a decent level, than someone copying the optimal build without the ability to perform on the level required to make that build optimal.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I agree with those who say that DPS meters on their own do not ruin the enjoyment of playing the game. People who use them to put others down are to blame. I also agree that DPS meters can be useful and can help players to improve. However, I also think that, unfortunately, DPS meters promote one and only one playstyle: the one based on hitting as hard and as fast as humanly possible. While it is a fine approach for many players, especially young and agile, it may not work very well for others.

    Older people or people with disabilities may prefer slower, but safer and more relaxing playstyles that do not put too much stress on them and their bodies. DPS meters are incapable of analysing strategies and show just a 'lack' of damage, which often leads to harassment and toxic comments.

    a DPS meter can be used to optimize every playstyle not just max clearspeed.
    but i think there is no popular guide with builds and strats to clear t4s and raids more relaxing and safe, you will mainly be directed to the speedclear stuff. however if there was one and that being more accepted and the norm among PUGs, then i guess there would be more players attending that content.
    id rather have someone with a build that performs reliably on a decent level, than someone copying the optimal build without the ability to perform on the level required to make that build optimal.

    DPS meters do nothing for those who rely on attrition strategies. Attrition warfare is not about DPS, but about patience, bullet-proof tactics, and most importantly not dying. It takes longer to kill things, but it is a safer, less physically and emotionally stressful, and almost guaranteed win (provided that one has a good understanding of what they are doing). The ultimate goal of this approach is victory. Nothing else matters. Death from a thousand paper cuts is still death.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    Damage meters are fine, what we really need is something like dbm. I cant see kitten on a big fight with all the spells going off, so i would like something that said ..oh hey move the boss just looked at you. Seriously frustrating to do large group content this way. Or any content where you have this visual madness you cant see anything through.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I agree with those who say that DPS meters on their own do not ruin the enjoyment of playing the game. People who use them to put others down are to blame. I also agree that DPS meters can be useful and can help players to improve. However, I also think that, unfortunately, DPS meters promote one and only one playstyle: the one based on hitting as hard and as fast as humanly possible. While it is a fine approach for many players, especially young and agile, it may not work very well for others.

    Older people or people with disabilities may prefer slower, but safer and more relaxing playstyles that do not put too much stress on them and their bodies. DPS meters are incapable of analysing strategies and show just a 'lack' of damage, which often leads to harassment and toxic comments.

    a DPS meter can be used to optimize every playstyle not just max clearspeed.
    but i think there is no popular guide with builds and strats to clear t4s and raids more relaxing and safe, you will mainly be directed to the speedclear stuff. however if there was one and that being more accepted and the norm among PUGs, then i guess there would be more players attending that content.
    id rather have someone with a build that performs reliably on a decent level, than someone copying the optimal build without the ability to perform on the level required to make that build optimal.

    DPS meters do nothing for those who rely on attrition strategies. Attrition warfare is not about DPS, but about patience, bullet-proof tactics, and most importantly not dying. It takes longer to kill things, but it is a safer, less physically and emotionally stressful, and almost guaranteed win (provided that one has a good understanding of what they are doing). The ultimate goal of this approach is victory. Nothing else matters. Death from a thousand paper cuts is still death.

    DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Wukie.1794Wukie.1794 Member ✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    (Speaking about the mmo genre in general) I prefer the days before gear scores, damage meters, and looking for group tools. The first two promote elitism and general d-baggery while the lfg system kills community. Look what it did to WoW. They will kick you over there for trying to chat in a dungeon or when a new player mentions it is their first time (been a couple years since I have played, but from what I read it is still the same). You were more willing to compromise and teach players that weren't up to par when you couldn't just kick a player and have them instantly replaced. They became better players and you gained a valuable friend to group with later. If they were straight up trolls word got around and they couldn't find groups.

    I left Lineage II the day WoW was released in 2004 and the community was amazing when we all reached BRS and Molten Core. Guilds had class captains that were good players that would train the guildies under them and get them ready for raiding. Now it's just FU!

    Edit: I feel like I should mention the GW2 community is about the best out there. Sure, there are toxic people. For the most part though you won't find a nicer group of gamers in any other MMO.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    Someone posted a screenshot on our guild Discord this very morning which showed someone insulting him randomly in WvW. Something about dying to a certain illness. This might be bad for his enjoyment of the game. Which one do we ban? The person in question, their entire server, the game mode, PvP features in their entirety, whispering, the chat all together?

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I agree with those who say that DPS meters on their own do not ruin the enjoyment of playing the game. People who use them to put others down are to blame. I also agree that DPS meters can be useful and can help players to improve. However, I also think that, unfortunately, DPS meters promote one and only one playstyle: the one based on hitting as hard and as fast as humanly possible. While it is a fine approach for many players, especially young and agile, it may not work very well for others.

    Older people or people with disabilities may prefer slower, but safer and more relaxing playstyles that do not put too much stress on them and their bodies. DPS meters are incapable of analysing strategies and show just a 'lack' of damage, which often leads to harassment and toxic comments.

    a DPS meter can be used to optimize every playstyle not just max clearspeed.
    but i think there is no popular guide with builds and strats to clear t4s and raids more relaxing and safe, you will mainly be directed to the speedclear stuff. however if there was one and that being more accepted and the norm among PUGs, then i guess there would be more players attending that content.
    id rather have someone with a build that performs reliably on a decent level, than someone copying the optimal build without the ability to perform on the level required to make that build optimal.

    DPS meters do nothing for those who rely on attrition strategies. Attrition warfare is not about DPS, but about patience, bullet-proof tactics, and most importantly not dying. It takes longer to kill things, but it is a safer, less physically and emotionally stressful, and almost guaranteed win (provided that one has a good understanding of what they are doing). The ultimate goal of this approach is victory. Nothing else matters. Death from a thousand paper cuts is still death.

    The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I agree with those who say that DPS meters on their own do not ruin the enjoyment of playing the game. People who use them to put others down are to blame. I also agree that DPS meters can be useful and can help players to improve. However, I also think that, unfortunately, DPS meters promote one and only one playstyle: the one based on hitting as hard and as fast as humanly possible. While it is a fine approach for many players, especially young and agile, it may not work very well for others.

    They really don't. That playstyle has been here before. Remember "zerk or gtfo" mentality of the early game days? That was actually worse.

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    People still latch onto arbitrary criteria. The difference actually is, who is right and who is wrong. Taking into account the OP's absurd example, those "toxic individuals" you're singling out aren't actually wrong in considerations of base level of understanding and group composition and at best you can dismiss them as "toxic" but that doesn't actually do anything to change the dynamic between the groups. It's separating them on an arbitrary criteria of moral nit-pickery as elitists.

    And how do you expect people to be objectively "right" or "wrong" about social behaviour? Because the issue was never the dps (note, btw, that "high" and "low" dps is also not really all that objective division). It was whether someone was a kitten or not. And that is always going to be quite subjective and arbitrary.

    So, people "latch to arbitrary criteria", because the issues discussed do not have non-arbitrary ones.

    Which you'd know if you only noticed, that your own arguments are arbitrary as well.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ol Nik.2518 said:
    I agree with those who say that DPS meters on their own do not ruin the enjoyment of playing the game. People who use them to put others down are to blame. I also agree that DPS meters can be useful and can help players to improve. However, I also think that, unfortunately, DPS meters promote one and only one playstyle: the one based on hitting as hard and as fast as humanly possible. While it is a fine approach for many players, especially young and agile, it may not work very well for others.

    They really don't. That playstyle has been here before. Remember "zerk or gtfo" mentality of the early game days? That was actually worse.

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    People still latch onto arbitrary criteria. The difference actually is, who is right and who is wrong. Taking into account the OP's absurd example, those "toxic individuals" you're singling out aren't actually wrong in considerations of base level of understanding and group composition and at best you can dismiss them as "toxic" but that doesn't actually do anything to change the dynamic between the groups. It's separating them on an arbitrary criteria of moral nit-pickery as elitists.

    And how do you expect people to be objectively "right" or "wrong" about social behaviour? Because the issue was never the dps (note, btw, that "high" and "low" dps is also not really all that objective division). It was whether someone was a kitten or not. And that is always going to be quite subjective and arbitrary.

    So, people "latch to arbitrary criteria", because the issues discussed do not have non-arbitrary ones.

    Which you'd know if you only noticed, that your own arguments are arbitrary as well.

    Like I said, my post isn't an argument, it's an observation.

    It's not about being objectively right or wrong, it's who has more of a footing to make an argument for their position.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its not a dps meter that ruined your Day, it was a player using it. Dps meter is a great tool, some players are just idiots :)

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    a DPS meter can be used to optimize every playstyle not just max clearspeed.

    While I'm sure that it CAN be used for every playstyle, my understanding is (particularly in raids) that it is primarily used for max clearspeed which is probably why so many people have issues with it.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

<134
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