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Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

Today I get someone bitching at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the damn T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his damn damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that crap matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the damn already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some damn know-it-all min/maxer bitching about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

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@Mad As Hell.2168 said:Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote.

what makes you think that people would not get toxic about your damage, when they cant use a damage meter? people used to do that even without meter. now if they do so, they at least do it based on your damage and not their assumptions. the problem here is not the meter, its toxic players.

This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot -at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.spear is pretty awesome on thief since the rework to underwater skills and most certainly deals way more damage than harpoon gun, give it a try.

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@Mad As Hell.2168 said:Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

I'll be 100% honest with you Mad As Hell, if someone came at me for doing poor damage in Aquatic Ruins, I'd first ask them if they are sane and then block them for such nonsense.

Now don't get me wrong, I am a supporter of damage meters because they provide additional information, but come one, Aquatic Ruins? The free loot fractal next to Jade Maw?

You basically met a toxic person who has 0 clue when and where damage meters are of use/interest. Say on the slime in Taumanova :#

Have some tee, relax and realize that you just got unlucky with 1 individual. Not sure I would blame this solely on the damage meter though.

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It is not the damage metres, it is the person.

You could say "the chatbox is ruining the game" with that logic, to be honest. Damage metre just makes it clear as to WHO in the group is not pulling their weight and it is not the be all end all metric anyway. There will always be kittens complaining, with or without damage metres.

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Subjective. My personal enjoyment was anplified by the introduction of meter as now kicking ppl or not is based purely on facts, more classes can now be used without ppl assuming (x class isnt y class therefor x class cant compete).

Is the scenario u gave on aquatic extreme? Hell ye, but thats not a problem with the meter thats a problem with that person.

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@Mad As Hell.2168 said:Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

None of this background means anything for the topic at hand.

Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

People have done that long before DPS meters were ever even mentioned. Way back when dungeons were actually still popular and ANet still had a dungeon team. The only difference is that the DPS meters can keep people more honest. Keyword being can and not will. There was the time that my friends had someone complaining about low DPS ... when the person complaining was doing less damage than the party's healer. -_-

Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

What does questionable game design have to do with DPS meters? It seems like you have misplaced the blame.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Mad As Hell.2168 said:Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten
T4 underwater fractal
with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

I'll be 100% honest with you Mad As Hell, if someone came at me for doing poor damage in Aquatic Ruins, I'd first ask them if they are sane and then block them for such nonsense.

Now don't get me wrong, I am a supporter of damage meters because they provide additional information, but come one, Aquatic Ruins? The free loot fractal next to Jade Maw?

You basically met a toxic person who has 0 clue when and where damage meters are of use/interest. Say on the slime in Taumanova :#

Have some tee, relax and realize that you just got unlucky with 1 individual. Not sure I would blame this solely on the damage meter though.

It's pretty common that people don't even have lv80 underwater weapons ...

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@Mad As Hell.2168 said:Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

Right .. because this is a problem with the game, and not the people that play it. If you don't know why you played 7000 hours and one toxic encounter has you ready to leave, maybe you should. Personally, I think you are being sensational and it doesn't help you make your point.

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Okay, I'm not pro damage meter, though I've cooled off on them some over the years and no longer am anti-damage meter either. I don't use one though.

That said, this complaint is baseless. A million people playing the game, and one person said something to you. Well, as it happens that person was using a damage meter. I've had people say things to me in game that have nothing to do with a damage meter. They're simply kittens. Now, as it happens, if there are a million people playing a game, and 1% of them are kittens, it means there are a whole lot of kittens running around. No one can remove every obnoxious player from the game.

The damage meter wasn't at fault there, the player was. I've been yelled at by guys for using different skills and weapons than they would have chosen without a damage meter involved.

I'm not saying that guy didn't abuse the damage meter. I'm saying that you have no way of knowing if he'd have said something to you even without one. People still used to look and notice other stuff.

Blame the guy not the tool. That's my advice. Because damage meters have been in the game for a long long time.

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Some criminal ran over people with a car. Let’s ban cars!Some criminal stabbed people with a pen. Let’s ban pens!Some criminal chocked people with his hands. Let’s remove peoples’ hands!Some criminal went on a killing spree after playing a video game. Let’s ban video games!

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Gratz on your first two paragraphs.

So what you encountered is unfortunate, as it seems like you are upset about someone complaining about dps in content that is not difficult enough to warrant meta builds. I agree with you that T4 fractals are not challenging enough to require meta builds in order to have success in a timely manner.

Dps meters are not the source of the mentality you encountered, however, as this mentality was around long before Dps meters were available in this game. Many dungeon runs used to require 5 greatsword warriors, which we now know would not have been the most effective combination. Dps meters helped us know which builds will be the most effective in the hardest content, but it is the player who will use it to create unpleasant experiences like you had.

If someone else is causing you to no longer have fun, I can only suggest blocking that person. There are plenty of other T4 fractal groups out there and that player isn't required for you to be successful.

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You know its frustrating because of a couple reasons.The content is not hard enough so you can have people get free damage in and do mindless rotations. So the damage meters don't say skill... they more say... Build choice, equipment, and rotation memorization.

Something that would help with this would be to lower hp of bosses but make them harder to hit because of avoiding damage yourself and other mechanics.... NOT MECHANICS YOU CAN HEAL THROUGH WITH HEALERS.... more self reliant stuff. Man oh man the elitism would vanish over night. The brainless rotation practicing and grind to win elitists would be silenced.

I want to also make a note that the funnest runs of fracs or any dungeon were always pugs. With pugs its not super meta so you have people getting downed so you have all this Damage>pop shadow refuge heal> dodge> Damage.... and less of that "stack together and do max damage" in one spot BS.

it should be less about multiple rotations in a row and more about dealing big dmg in a small time frame or dealing damage but never feeling comfortable about staying in one spot.

And another thing if you were rezzing people and doing other things then you probably boosted damage for the team.

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I'm sure this debate has happened countless times in the past but I am unaware because the subject holds no interest to me but I once did hold a fascination about the veil of ambiguity and what it does to the community. That being, if more and more of the core mechanics are hidden away, how it affects player choice and interest.

I'm sure there are plenty of players who enjoy the game more because damage meters and transparency of the mechanics but then there are those that enjoy discovery, experimentation and collaboration with regards to figuring out how the cogs work behind the scenes. Personally, I would always just read in intrigue when players put forward numbers and hypothesis but didn't participate but it always felt....I dunno, healthy? There would, of course, be players that blindly latch onto the theories and numbers despite them not being correct (wrong people are gonna be wrong lol) but because there wasn't a concrete factor to it, this kept the amount of such players in check (some might use those theories but remain skeptical and unsure).

So to GW2. Replace hypothesis or theory with numbers. Exchange experimentation with parsing. Compare those who blindly latched onto ambiguous number tests to those that blindly latch onto out-of-context maxed builds.

I'm not picking sides or saying one situation was better, rather looking at the relationship between the hardcore number crunchers, the early adopter groups that follow those numbers, those that don't and the many players that float between the groups. Just like the numbers and mechanics being more concrete, so are the groups and so is the intent behind those groups. You then get this atmosphere where you've got people at each other's throats, being forced to BROADCAST how non-hardcore pro-casual a group is, heated discussions of who is right and who is in the wrong. etc etc.

Long aside concluded, I think much of the game's ambiguity has shifted toward drops/drop rates which is the most boring thing in the world lol.

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Whenever these threads pop up I just fail to see how the damage meters have had anything to do with it.

I wouldn't want to go back to a time where people try to get carried through the fact that nobody can 100% tell it is their fault, unless they fail mechanics. Most people would figure that out anyway, but it will be more annoying for them as well as anybody else.

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@Mad As Hell.2168 said:Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

This is not meters fault. Its toxic players fault he probly tried too shift blame

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You then get this atmosphere where you've got people at each other's throats, being forced to BROADCAST how non-hardcore pro-casual a group is, heated discussions of who is right and who is in the wrong. etc etc.

That happens whenever passionate people have trouble handling disagreements. It's not new to GW2 this month or when the first DPS meter appeared. It's not new to MMOs. It's not even new to RPG-style gaming. (For some people, half of playing pen & paper D&D was the arguments, which might or might not have been healthy.)

The difference is that in the past, without meters, people latched on to arbitrary criteria. And, as in the OP's specific example, toxic individuals sometimes lose sight of the goals and lose their skritt over whether their party colleagues were doing things the "right way." Instead of yelling about DPS, they'd yell about stacking might or whether you should or should not stealth through this corridor.

There might be an argument about whether DPS meters belong in games, especially this one. But the OP didn't make that argument. They put out one of the most extreme examples of someone unclear on the concepts and claimed outright that this would not have happened if not for the DPS meter. That's theoretically possible, but under these specific circumstances, it's all but impossible.

Heated discussions happen because people are passionate about the game. Some people can handle that and some can't.

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@Khisanth.2948 said:It's pretty common that people don't even have lv80 underwater weapons ......there was that time when we've realized, in the middle of aquatic, that the only person with a level 80 underwater weapon was the druid (that was on druid only because they didn't want to switch class just for that one fractal). All the rest had greens from level 40 to 60.(same with aquatic breathers. And none had any rune in their breather slotted either. Oh, the horror).

No tocixity was noticed. Even though the druid did end up outdpsing everyone else.

(seriously, someone complained about dps in aquatic of all the places? that's a good joke. I'd have had a good laugh)

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Mad As Hell.2168 said:Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

This is not meters fault. Its toxic players fault he probly tried too shift blame

Its not a 'fault' thing. its whether the tool can be misinterpreted or misused within contexts where they are just not required. damager meters focus on 1 thing, damage and there is a segment of the player base that can't comprehend that when a group does well over 100% of the required dps to complete an instance, more dps is not necessarily a priority. Prime example, today i was in a group and 1 absolute idiot complained and argued and abused someone because they were 'shocked' by somebody's low dps. Thing is we were destroying everything and flying through the instance. Fortunately the leader ignord him and he eventually emo left. If there was not a meter that idiot would not have had data to misinterpret. As well as this, there is a % of meter users are motivated to 'win' the meter race, we have all seen it in many games and they are disruptive and sometime obnoxious.

A Meter can be a good tool, but like every tool, they have their place and time to use.

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Mad As Hell.2168 said:Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

This is not meters fault. Its toxic players fault he probly tried too shift blame

Its not a 'fault' thing. its whether the tool can be misinterpreted or misused within contexts where they are just not required. damager meters focus on 1 thing, damage and there is a segment of the player base that can't comprehend that when a group does well over 100% of the required dps to complete an instance, more dps is not necessarily a priority. Prime example, today i was in a group and 1 absolute idiot complained and argued and abused someone because they were 'shocked' by somebody's low dps. Thing is we were destroying everything and flying through the instance. Fortunately the leader ignord him and he eventually emo left. If there was not a meter that idiot would not have had data to misinterpret. As well as this, there is a % of meter users are motivated to 'win' the meter race, we have all seen it in many games and they are disruptive and sometime obnoxious.

A Meter can be a good tool, but like every tool, they have their place and time to use.

That person would have whined anyway to the whole group since they couldent pinpoint who was the low damage dealer just that someone were depending on how fast stuff melted.

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