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  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

    Yeah all them condi eles are just lining up at the arena waiting for scourge to be bopped so they're competitive right?

    Hmmm maybe not, but those condi engineers, rangers and thieves are surely waiting to take over right?

    Oh maybe not but surely the ReneGod is going to grace us with the marvel of it's insane condition pressure?

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    If I were balancing things, I'd do this:

    • Mirage cloak not usable when CC'd
    • Cut condi cleanse heavily across all classes. I'm talking like remove every single cleanse trait, leaving only minimal cleanse (eg. on heal skills + utility skills)
    • Tune condi classes in light of this reduced cleanse. To start: reduce Mirage burst, reduce Scourge cover. I'd probably leave other classes for now, but they might need to be reduced too.
  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019

    @Xtrverz.4069 said:
    EDIT IM TALKING ABOUT CONDI people that cry about power are just bad

    Quoted for truth. But watch A-net screw it up anyways.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019

    @coro.3176 said:
    If I were balancing things, I'd do this:

    • Mirage cloak not usable when CC'd
    • Cut condi cleanse heavily across all classes. I'm talking like remove every single cleanse trait, leaving only minimal cleanse (eg. on heal skills + utility skills)
    • Tune condi classes in light of this reduced cleanse. To start: reduce Mirage burst, reduce Scourge cover. I'd probably leave other classes for now, but they might need to be reduced too.

    The winning solution.

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

    Wow 2/9 classes sometimes run condi. And power reapers are at least as widely run as condition scourges are. Certainly more so in Ranked.

    Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once you might as well sit around doing nothing.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions, maybe more. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    If I were balancing things, I'd do this:

    • Mirage cloak not usable when CC'd
    • Cut condi cleanse heavily across all classes. I'm talking like remove every single cleanse trait, leaving only minimal cleanse (eg. on heal skills + utility skills)
    • Tune condi classes in light of this reduced cleanse. To start: reduce Mirage burst, reduce Scourge cover. I'd probably leave other classes for now, but they might need to be reduced too.

    The winning solution.

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

    Wow 2/9 classes sometimes run condi. And power reapers are at least as widely run as condition scourges are. Certainly more so in Ranked.

    Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once you might as well sit around doing nothing.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions, maybe more. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

    Burning Healing Signet is generally a last resort. Is condi clear a case of escalation? Have you seen the amount of conditions that can be spammed by either Mirage or Scourge? Even with all of that condi cleanse, Warrior is hard-pressed to keep up given the sheer volume and ease of application.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    If I were balancing things, I'd do this:

    • Mirage cloak not usable when CC'd
    • Cut condi cleanse heavily across all classes. I'm talking like remove every single cleanse trait, leaving only minimal cleanse (eg. on heal skills + utility skills)
    • Tune condi classes in light of this reduced cleanse. To start: reduce Mirage burst, reduce Scourge cover. I'd probably leave other classes for now, but they might need to be reduced too.

    The winning solution.

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

    Wow 2/9 classes sometimes run condi. And power reapers are at least as widely run as condition scourges are. Certainly more so in Ranked.

    Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once you might as well sit around doing nothing.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions, maybe more. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

    Burning Healing Signet is generally a last resort. Is condi clear a case of escalation? Have you seen the amount of conditions that can be spammed by either Mirage or Scourge? Even with all of that condi cleanse, Warrior is hard-pressed to keep up given the sheer volume and ease of application.

    Nice to see you completely ignored everything I said.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • ezd.6359ezd.6359 Member ✭✭✭

    14% of team damage with damage build. Sooooo OP!

  • crewthief.8649crewthief.8649 Member ✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    If I were balancing things, I'd do this:

    • Mirage cloak not usable when CC'd
    • Cut condi cleanse heavily across all classes. I'm talking like remove every single cleanse trait, leaving only minimal cleanse (eg. on heal skills + utility skills)
    • Tune condi classes in light of this reduced cleanse. To start: reduce Mirage burst, reduce Scourge cover. I'd probably leave other classes for now, but they might need to be reduced too.

    The winning solution.

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

    Wow 2/9 classes sometimes run condi. And power reapers are at least as widely run as condition scourges are. Certainly more so in Ranked.

    Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once you might as well sit around doing nothing.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions, maybe more. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

    Burning Healing Signet is generally a last resort. Is condi clear a case of escalation? Have you seen the amount of conditions that can be spammed by either Mirage or Scourge? Even with all of that condi cleanse, Warrior is hard-pressed to keep up given the sheer volume and ease of application.

    Nice to see you completely ignored everything I said.

    I was specifically addressing your points regarding Warrior. If I'd had half an hour or more, I'd have read the rest of that wall. Were you not using Warrior as an example of excessive condi clear (because you did single Warrior out)? My point was, is the excessive condi clear a response to Scourge and Mirage?

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