Constructive Feedback Regarding The Current State of WvW — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Constructive Feedback Regarding The Current State of WvW

As we move closer and closer towards the implementation of alliances, I wanted to take a minute and compile a list of things in WvW that could be improved upon or changed, in a constructive manner. This list will include things such as the current fight meta of WvW, scoring, and structural upgrading/defense, mostly focusing on topics the majority of players can agree upon, with some of my opinion mixed in as well. Big boy wall of text inc.

  • Balance
    Balance is an integral part of WvW, from the smallest of roamers to the largest of mapblobs. Even if you ppt all day you will eventually have to fight whoever is attacking or defending. Even though balance isn't the responsibility of the WvW team, it should in my opinion take precedence over other matters. Even with the slow burn of players in WvW, you still have groups logging in everyday because they enjoy the combat, they love the combat system of gw2, and no other game out right now really does it like guild wars does. Unfortunately Path of Fire brought with it several specs that are just unhealthy for the game mode from a design standpoint. It's very doubtful that these classes' problems can be fixed by a simple numbers tweak, and it seems they'd need a redesign on some of their core mechanics. I know something like this probably isn't feasible in interest of keeping the classes feel the same between PvE, PvP, and WvW, but it'd go a long way towards making the game mode feel more balanced. I appreciate the work Raymond has done to keep WvW going, but balance is such an important part of the mode, and a larger focus on it from Anet would be appreciated so much by all players.
  1. Scourge
    Much of the current meta's problems can honestly be attributed to scourge. Having a class that does 10 target cap on a large portion of it's damaging attacks makes it near impossible to push any competent group. The high amount of corrupts it can provides is unnerving, especially with the scepter buff several months ago driving even power necros to take up curses for the added boon rip. It's high area denial and boonrip potential has been universally agreed upon to be unfun to fight in many capacities. I propose at the very least another look towards devouring darkness, and it's boonrip potential, and a suggestion that may not be feasible but would be much appreciated would be the removal of the PBAoE shade around the scourge. It feels bad whether you're roaming or zerging to be punished so strongly for pushing your enemy, and is a big contributor to the pirateshipesque meta we've had since PoF dropped. I'm sure others have even more suggestions to lessen the power of easily the most popular zerg class in the game, but if scourge is adjusted its counterpart firebrand would need to be touched as well.

  2. Firebrand
    Firebrand isn't necessarily a problem right now, and in fact is the only real counter to the obscene amounts of boonrip and damage scourges can put out, with it's 10 target stab and high master of all trades support output. But the fates of scourge and firebrand are tightly intertwined, and if one is to be touched so must the other. As it stands now since the changes to boon mesmer and superspeed nerfs engineer experienced, firebrand has become really the only support you need in a group. Look at any other support and think "what if this was a firebrand instead?" and you'd find that a firebrand would be the better choice in nearly every situation. Sure you may want a condiclear/immobilize tempest, or a superspeed purity of purpose holo, but neither of the 2 classes come anywhere near to the versatility firebrand provides. The combination of an instantaneous rez, extremely high healing effectiveness, high stab uptime, the only real provider of large scale aegis, and serviceable cc makes it a little too powerful, especially if scourge was to be nerfed. If scourge is to nerfed firebrand would have to closely follow behind. Keeping its strong points of MI res, high stab uptime, and oodles of healing effectivness and aegis would be a good thing for the class, but the sheer amount of boons such as regen and prot that it can output, as well as its strong condi clear in resolve would need to be looked at if scourge's corrupts were to be looked at. No one wants to return to the melee ball neverending fights meta of HoT, but a good medium between it and the hard ranged gameplay of today would be much appreciated.

  3. Revenant
    Revenant is surprisingly in a good spot, which is something I didn't really expect. But if the other 2 juggernauts of WvW are to be nerfed revenant would need some sort of adjustment as well. In my opinion the damage of rev is in a good spot right now, where the problem lies is in how fast and easy the damage comes out. Even scourge has to wait 15 or 20 seconds before they can shade spike again, while revenant's high damaging abilites have extremely low cooldowns. A look at phase smash and Coalescence of Ruin's cooldowns may be in order, But if scourge and firebrand get adjusted many of the oppressing issues rev has today may not be a problem if groups are able to simply push through the damage towards the stack. It would have to be something that is closely looked at after scourge and firebrands' effectiveness are looked at.

  4. Mirage, Soulbeast, Deadeye, and Roaming
    Most of the issues with large scale combat right now are attributed to the sheer dominance of the above 3 classes, so here I will go into the roaming side of things, and how these 3 classes have hurt the viability and fun of roaming for many people. Many of the ideas here will be my own more than overarching ideas most WvWers can agree with. I included them all in the same section because I believe they all suffer from the same issues, design that hasn't necessarily taken WvW into account. Mirage and it's ability to break stun/dodge while stunned, high mobility, the power of infinite horizon, and it's extremely high and constant condi pressure makes it an honest to god chore to fight whenever you encounter one. It's simply not fun at all to battle, as most of the fight you'll be watching your UI to find the exact moment you need to strike due to the high amounts of visual noise mirage gives out. Mirage cloak needs to be looked at, possibly a reduction in its duration from 1s to .75 or even .5s, and ICD on infinite horizon, a reduction in the sword ambush leaps distance or a cooldown on ambush skills in general would take great leaps towards making the class more enjoyable to battle, while keeping it's strengths.
    Soulbeast simply just does too much damage, for the EXTREMELY high amounts of sustain and mobility it has. The ability to cover 2400 range extremely quick with sword and the owl pet, 33% reduction to both condi and power damage from dolyak stance, sic ems insane 40% damage modifier, and extremely high access to protection and stability makes it even more draining to fight than mirage sometimes. We've all been sniped by a soulbeast or two, instantly dropping from 100-0 in a matter of seconds with little to no counterplay. The addition of soulbeast has seriously hurt many people's enjoyments of roaming, as it simply has too many rewards for very little amounts of risk. A higher cooldown or range decrease on owl pet's beast ability swoop, the removal of the 33% damage reduction from dolyak stance, a look at it's obscene amounts of protection available from Companion's defense and moa stance, and a drastic reduction or removal of sicem's damage modifier applied to the player would let the class retain it's high damage from range without making it obscene, while also making sure it isn't an unkillable melee juggernaut.
    Deadeye has been touched upon many times, and I feel Anet's really close to making it a strong but balanced class. I urge anet to look at both core and daredevil thieves with the same enthusiasm they looked towards deadeye while they were reworking it. However deadeye still suffers from the issues that both soulbeast and mirage do, that issue being extremely high reward for very little risk. Being able to remove reveal on demand, an extremely easy access to immobilize, and the ability to stealth on dodge makes it irritating to fight, even if it's not exactly overpowered. I suggest anet moves some of the strengths it has from stealth towards making it more survivable in combat. Stealth is fine to reposition or drop aggro, but attacking someone once then sitting in stealth for 12-15s waiting for an opening to oneshot is extremely annoying to fight. Another pass on the dodge on stealth trait and deadeye elite, as well as the inital damage of malicious damage would be much appreciated.

  • Scoring
    A couple years ago Arenanet introduced the skirmish mechanic, wanting to curb how much nightcapping effected the gamemode while still allowing players in those timezones to contribute to their server. The system was fine on release, but having not been touched for so long the cracks in the system have been revealed. I can't speak for EU, but several servers in NA have been able to maintain their current standing by simply playing around their enemies' playtime. PPT shouldn't be discouraged, people have the right to play the game however they want, but currently PPT and nightcapping lends itself to victory way too much per week. Some form of primetime system, where for example whoever takes 1st place during the 3 skirmishes in primetime gains 2 or 4 more victory points would make sure a server can't climb the tiers solely through nightcapping and off hour ppt, while retaining the importance of objective control and PPT.

  • Stuctural upgrading and tactics
    As it stands now the advantage defenders have has become a little bit ridiculous. The inclusion of all matters of t activators, buffs on every keep and tower you claim, and the addition of shield gens and mortars have skewed objectives a little too strongly towards the defenders side, the biggest offender of this being SMC. In my opinion siege on the third floor of SMC is extremely unhealthy for the mode. Having trebs, mortars, and ACs that are near impossible to hit in any reasonable capacity makes SMC a nightmare to recapture unless a focused effort form both servers is used, or nobody is online for the defending server. It's also extremely easy to upgrade structures very fast now, a dedicated group can t2 a keep in as little as 30 or 40 minutes. A look towards the current state of tactivators and how structures update would be much appreciated.

As it stands now these are most of the problems I have in the mode, and I'm interested to see how my fellow mist warriors think of the current state of WvW as a whole. I hope anet puts a little more focus on WvW in this time between expansions, and keeps in mind the effect any new elite specs would have on WvW.

TLDR: Scourge and Firebrand are way too dominant and stifle any competition in their roles, Rev is alright but may need a look at its cds if scourge and fb get nerfed, Soulbeast mirage and deadeye are extremely unfun to fight against and have too much reward for how little risk they have, nightcapping accounts for too much of the current score per week and encourages simply playing when your opponent isn't awake, and the defense of structures has gotten a bit too easy and out of hand, especially SMC.

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Comments

  • I think the main problem with wvw balance is the power creep. In zergs you could bring other supports up to the level of FB by giving them access to group stab/aegis/prot, but then the amount of boon spam would make sustain way too powerful. On the other hand you could bring other classes on par with scourge, but then there would be so much aoe spam and corrupts that most fights would just be even worse 1push battles. Any attempt at balance right now inevitably causes an "overpowered meta" because damage, healing, and boon output is so high. That being said, i dont think specific class balance is terrible right now, since other classes like weaver, scrapper, daredevil can still do very well.

    As for roaming, power creep has made most builds into some variant of a 1shot gimmick build, it just happens to be that mes, thief and ranger are the best at it. Even when i roam with something like core guard or power rev, i will 1 shot people who arent paying attention, and arent in full minstrel gear. Pretty much every class running the standard marauder roaming gear can become a 1 shot build. The reason why POF classes like mirage and deadeye seem the worst, is because they were likely designed with the power creep in mind, and have much needed access to more evades, stealth, invuln, mobility etc.

  • Basta.6723Basta.6723 Member
    edited February 10, 2019

    @Caysadia.7405 What a great constructive feedback. I'm a veteran wvw'er who never posts, it's nice to see a detailed and well thought out post. The current state of WvW is on point.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caysadia.7405 said:
    Soulbeast mirage and deadeye are extremely unfun to fight against

    Its not coincidence you know. What, you think we bring all this OP for fun? No, we bring it to have a fighting chance between skilled players on top roaming classes.

    Regarding nightcapping, that doesnt really exist anymore, the days of ticking 600+ PPT and more net gain in points in 4h than the other 20h is a thing of the past. There is 12 skirmishes a day and each skirmish is of equal worth. Whether the server have population to win during certain hours have nothing to do with the scoring system - thats a population and server issue.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Don't think scourges are a problem at the moment, in fact the last 2 weeks fighting boon ball blobs has shown to me that there isn't enough boon rips going on, when some of these organized guilds take a map blob with them and go to town around the map with nothing to stop them because you need an army of scourges to dent them. As much as I hate CoR for it's ridiculous damage on very ridiculous low cooldown, the reason why we have high damage abilities is to get around all the protection and regen spamming, all the reflects and blocks and invuls. Like everything is set to the extremes, everything needs to be toned down on both sides.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    RIP Maguuma cloud || Time to join the dark side.

  • @Israel.7056 said:
    Before we can talk about what's wrong with balance we have to talk about what we think balance ought to be. In the absence of some teleological point of reference the whole balance debate is meaningless imo.

    A good point of balance would perhaps be one where most or every class has SOME sort of role that they bring to the table that nothing else really can in a useful capacity. A good example of this was engineer pre patch where it may have been a worse support than firebrand, but it brought superspeed to the table and therefore many guilds ran a scrapper mostly for the superspeed. You're obviously going to have classes that are the best at dealing damage or doing support, its the nature of the game, but a class shouldn't shut out all other options. We went from Guardian Warrior Elementalist Necro to Guardian Revenant Necro in the span of two expansions, who knows maybe soon zergs will just be guardians and necros. You'll never have every class being required 100% for a group, but having 4/9 or even 5/9 be good and viable in large scale combat would be nice.

  • @Bort.8647 said:
    I think the main problem with wvw balance is the power creep. In zergs you could bring other supports up to the level of FB by giving them access to group stab/aegis/prot, but then the amount of boon spam would make sustain way too powerful. On the other hand you could bring other classes on par with scourge, but then there would be so much aoe spam and corrupts that most fights would just be even worse 1push battles. Any attempt at balance right now inevitably causes an "overpowered meta" because damage, healing, and boon output is so high. That being said, i dont think specific class balance is terrible right now, since other classes like weaver, scrapper, daredevil can still do very well.

    As for roaming, power creep has made most builds into some variant of a 1shot gimmick build, it just happens to be that mes, thief and ranger are the best at it. Even when i roam with something like core guard or power rev, i will 1 shot people who arent paying attention, and arent in full minstrel gear. Pretty much every class running the standard marauder roaming gear can become a 1 shot build. The reason why POF classes like mirage and deadeye seem the worst, is because they were likely designed with the power creep in mind, and have much needed access to more evades, stealth, invuln, mobility etc.

    my man, "balance" doesnt only constitute buffs. You can nerf things too. Nerfing scourge and firebrand down to the level of other classes is the answer.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    Before we can talk about what's wrong with balance we have to talk about what we think balance ought to be. In the absence of some teleological point of reference the whole balance debate is meaningless imo.

    A good point of balance would perhaps be one where most or every class has SOME sort of role that they bring to the table that nothing else really can in a useful capacity. A good example of this was engineer pre patch where it may have been a worse support than firebrand, but it brought superspeed to the table and therefore many guilds ran a scrapper mostly for the superspeed. You're obviously going to have classes that are the best at dealing damage or doing support, its the nature of the game, but a class shouldn't shut out all other options. We went from Guardian Warrior Elementalist Necro to Guardian Revenant Necro in the span of two expansions, who knows maybe soon zergs will just be guardians and necros. You'll never have every class being required 100% for a group, but having 4/9 or even 5/9 be good and viable in large scale combat would be nice.

    What guild do you play with?

  • @DonkeyHaxor.4052 said:
    my man, "balance" doesnt only constitute buffs. You can nerf things too. Nerfing scourge and firebrand down to the level of other classes is the answer.

    I agree completely, thats what I meant when i said the amount of damage, healing and boons is way too high. Everything, especially FB and scourge needs to be toned down.

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    Before we can talk about what's wrong with balance we have to talk about what we think balance ought to be. In the absence of some teleological point of reference the whole balance debate is meaningless imo.

    A good point of balance would perhaps be one where most or every class has SOME sort of role that they bring to the table that nothing else really can in a useful capacity. A good example of this was engineer pre patch where it may have been a worse support than firebrand, but it brought superspeed to the table and therefore many guilds ran a scrapper mostly for the superspeed. You're obviously going to have classes that are the best at dealing damage or doing support, its the nature of the game, but a class shouldn't shut out all other options. We went from Guardian Warrior Elementalist Necro to Guardian Revenant Necro in the span of two expansions, who knows maybe soon zergs will just be guardians and necros. You'll never have every class being required 100% for a group, but having 4/9 or even 5/9 be good and viable in large scale combat would be nice.

    What guild do you play with?

    im all over the place brother

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    Before we can talk about what's wrong with balance we have to talk about what we think balance ought to be. In the absence of some teleological point of reference the whole balance debate is meaningless imo.

    A good point of balance would perhaps be one where most or every class has SOME sort of role that they bring to the table that nothing else really can in a useful capacity. A good example of this was engineer pre patch where it may have been a worse support than firebrand, but it brought superspeed to the table and therefore many guilds ran a scrapper mostly for the superspeed. You're obviously going to have classes that are the best at dealing damage or doing support, its the nature of the game, but a class shouldn't shut out all other options. We went from Guardian Warrior Elementalist Necro to Guardian Revenant Necro in the span of two expansions, who knows maybe soon zergs will just be guardians and necros. You'll never have every class being required 100% for a group, but having 4/9 or even 5/9 be good and viable in large scale combat would be nice.

    What guild do you play with?

    im all over the place brother

    EU player, mostly pugging? I had a similar conversation with an EU player a week ago give or take. He was saying the meta was 3/9 there as well.

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    Before we can talk about what's wrong with balance we have to talk about what we think balance ought to be. In the absence of some teleological point of reference the whole balance debate is meaningless imo.

    A good point of balance would perhaps be one where most or every class has SOME sort of role that they bring to the table that nothing else really can in a useful capacity. A good example of this was engineer pre patch where it may have been a worse support than firebrand, but it brought superspeed to the table and therefore many guilds ran a scrapper mostly for the superspeed. You're obviously going to have classes that are the best at dealing damage or doing support, its the nature of the game, but a class shouldn't shut out all other options. We went from Guardian Warrior Elementalist Necro to Guardian Revenant Necro in the span of two expansions, who knows maybe soon zergs will just be guardians and necros. You'll never have every class being required 100% for a group, but having 4/9 or even 5/9 be good and viable in large scale combat would be nice.

    What guild do you play with?

    im all over the place brother

    EU player, mostly pugging? I had a similar conversation with an EU player a week ago give or take. He was saying the meta was 3/9 there as well.

    NA player, been surfing around servers and guilds for awhile

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    so your main issue is 'balance' or what you precieve as such, indeed balance is one of the most important things in a 'competitive' mode.
    however you talk about balance in an encounter and not balance in the mode.
    no matter what you change about the professions, there is no reason to engage in a balanced fight when you strive to perform well in WvW. WvW is not a deathmatch, killing is not the primary objective. profession balance for WvW has to provide each profession a role within the mode, but they do not have to be balanced for insolated encounters.
    what is very unbalanced in WvW however and IMO the reason why WvW is not played to win but everyone does what they please: the teamsize/coverage. i dont think that alliances will be able to fix it, they alone wont even come close to it. however they are a step in the right direction.
    i understand why people do ask for encounter based profession balance, afterall many do not play to win the match but to win the encounter ahead. but i dont think the game should try to balance for anything else but the mode itself. if that seems impossible, change the mode design.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    1/ Scourge
    Devouring darkness: Reduce radius from 360 to 300, Increase CD from 10 to 15s, Keep 3 corrupts on target and change to 2 on enemies around.

    This spec suffers from a design problem. The fact that taking the defensive shade (Sand savant ) is always better than the offensive ones because of target cap is a problem while having F2 to F5 activate F1 is another. I could see some changes like those ones (just examples) to make gameplay more interesting:

    EDIT: Wouldn't work this way, just an idea to show that shades could work differently.
    Path of corruption: Revert change in Scourge to 2 corrupts
    Dhuumfire: Make internal cast time 3s instead of 5s in PvP/WvW.
    Sand Savant: Change it to so it's only "Barriers affect 10 allied targets in a 300-360 radius."
    Manifest Sand shade: (Should be base for the 3 grand master traits Range only), 1 at the same time, 240 radius, 5 targets, 6s duration, 20s recharge time (Shouldn't last 10s and be 300 radius like right now because it occupies the field too much while 3 shades at a time makes it really spammy, 180 is bad and 3 targets is unpractical).
    Nefarious favor: make it melee only and not activate F1
    Sand Cascade: Make it melee only and not activate F1
    Garish Pillar: keep it the way it is (range + melee, affects F1 and 5 targets), add 1 torment on it
    Desert Shroud: keep it (both range + melee, affects F1 and 5 targets)

    2/ FB
    It's quite allright right now with all the nerfs it has taken this year which have corrected the design flaws of having 3 tomes on the same spec.
    1 FB covers perfectly stab on your group and 2 FB/grp is an overkill imo which is only seen on NA servers. Tempest covers regen+ prot better anyway.
    On the other hand a F3 chapter 4 nerf on radius from 360 to 300 would be nice. Any more nerfs would make 2 FB /grp mandatory which is bad for comp diversity.

    3/ Herald

    It's actually the most needed nerf atm after the nerfs to support in December. Spamming this high damage has become a problem and the main culprit is damage modifier.
    First, Anet need to fix the bug with Major Grand Master and Ferocious agression because their damage modifier are additive right now instead of multiplicative as they should.
    On top of it, Major Gand Major should be nerfed so its damage modifier is only 10% when active upkeep and Targeted Destruction could see a change from 7% to 5%.
    Hammer might need a power ratio reduction on their skill but i won't go into detail.
    All those nerfs at once might be too much but you see my point.

    4/ Ranger

    Those are changes i posted in another topic that i think are needed to reduce the over performing duelist abilities of Soulbeast while providing some more team work:
    I will still suffer from a lack of non duelist nor projectile weapon beside GS.

    Swoop (bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000
    Lesser signet of stone: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s
    Unflinching Fortitude: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s
    Pet's prowess: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25%
    Sic' Em: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25%
    Moa Stance: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD
    Leader of the Pack: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125%
    Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 target
    OR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.

    I don't know about druid, it needs a buff. What about 1 stab when entering or exiting Celestial avatar?

    I don't have time to do the rest but let's say:
    chrono's nerf was too focused on PvE and less as needed in WvW. Maybe they should sightly buff inspiration signet?
    Mirage has too much damage for the amount of self sustain it has
    Deadeye has too much damage for the range and amount of stealth/disengage abilities it has
    Daredevil's vault does too much damage
    War needs a nerf on Lesser endure pain from 4 to 2,5s, reduce cast time on WoD and decrease radius from 360 to 300
    Tempest could use frost aura on MH dagger or Focus

    If changes are rightly made, holo and reaper could get into the meta for large scale

  • @Acyk.9671 said:
    1/ Scourge
    This spec suffers from a design problem. The fact that taking the defensive shade (Sand savant ) is always better than the offensive ones because of target cap is a problem while having F2 to F5 activate F1 is another. I could see some changes like those ones (just examples) to make gameplay more interesting:

    Devouring darkness: Reduce radius from 360 to 300, Increase CD from 10 to 15s, Keep 3 corrupts on target and change to 2 on enemies around.
    Path of corruption: Revert change in Scourge to 2 corrupts
    Dhuumfire: Make internal cast time 3s instead of 5s in PvP/WvW.
    Sand Savant: Change it to so it's only "Barriers affect 10 allied targets in a 300-360 radius."
    Manifest Sand shade: (Should be base for the 3 grand master traits Range only), 1 at the same time, 240 radius, 5 targets, 6s duration, 20s recharge time (Shouldn't last 10s and be 300 radius like right now because it occupies the field too much while 3 shades at a time makes it really spammy, 180 is bad and 3 targets is unpractical).
    Nefarious favor: make it melee only and not activate F1
    Sand Cascade: Make it melee only and not activate F1
    Garish Pillar: keep it the way it is (range + melee, affects F1 and 5 targets), add 1 torment on it
    Desert Shroud: keep it (both range + melee, affects F1 and 5 targets)

    2/ FB
    It's quite allright right now with all the nerfs it has taken this year which have corrected the design flaws of having 3 tomes on the same spec.
    1 FB covers perfectly stab on your group and 2 FB/grp is an overkill imo which is only seen on NA servers. Tempest covers regen+ prot better anyway.
    On the other hand a F3 chapter 4 nerf on radius from 360 to 300 would be nice. Any more nerfs would make 2 FB /grp mandatory which is bad for comp diversity.

    3/ Herald

    It's actually the most needed nerf atm after the nerfs to support in December. Spamming this high damage has become a problem and the main culprit is damage modifier.
    First, Anet need to fix the bug with Major Grand Master and Ferocious agression because their damage modifier are additive right now instead of multiplicative as they should.
    On top of it, Major Gand Major should be nerfed so its damage modifier is only 10% when active upkeep and Targeted Destruction could see a change from 7% to 5%.
    Hammer might need a power ratio reduction on their skill but i won't go into detail.
    All those nerfs at once might be too much but you see my point.

    4/ Ranger

    Those are changes i posted in another topic that i think are needed to reduce the over performing duelist abilities of Soulbeast while providing some more team work:
    I will still suffer from a lack of non duelist nor projectile weapon beside GS.

    Swoop (bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000
    Lesser signet of stone: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s
    Unflinching Fortitude: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s
    Pet's prowess: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25%
    Sic' Em: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25%
    Moa Stance: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD
    Leader of the Pack: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125%
    Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 target
    OR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.

    I don't know about druid, it needs a buff. What about 1 stab when entering or exiting Celestial avatar?

    I don't have time to do the rest but let's say:
    chrono's nerf was too focused on PvE and less as needed in WvW. Maybe they should sightly buff inspiration signet?
    Mirage has too much damage for the amount of self sustain it has
    Deadeye has too much damage for the range and amount of stealth/disengage abilities it has
    Daredevil's vault does too much damage
    War needs a nerf on Lesser endure pain from 4 to 2,5s, reduce cast time on WoD and decrease radius from 360 to 300
    Tempest could use frost aura on MH dagger or Focus

    If changes are rightly made, holo and reaper could get into the meta for large scale

    I really like your proposed changes to scourge, its a much more elegant solution than what I was proposing. Im a little hesitant to see firebrand be left in the state its in if scourge gets nerfed, maybe its something that needs to be seen if scourge ever gets changed. Other than that I agree with all the changes here

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All they have to do is give other supports more access to stab if they want them to be more competitive with fb. It's really that simple.

  • @Israel.7056 said:
    All they have to do is give other supports more access to stab if they want them to be more competitive with fb. It's really that simple.

    No, it really isn't. That is going to create a meta where its infinite stability and we have the same problem we have now except its a boon ball. The solution is to NERF the amount of things firebrand can do.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    @DonkeyHaxor.4052 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    All they have to do is give other supports more access to stab if they want them to be more competitive with fb. It's really that simple.

    No, it really isn't. That is going to create a meta where its infinite stability and we have the same problem we have now except its a boon ball. The solution is to NERF the amount of things firebrand can do.

    If they can't give stab they can't be subbed for firebrand. If nothing gives reliable stab no one can push it's as simple as that.

    Firebrand would get zero play if it didn't have as much stab as it does. Healing doesn't matter if you don't have stab.

    This game is really not that complex.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    Before we can talk about what's wrong with balance we have to talk about what we think balance ought to be. In the absence of some teleological point of reference the whole balance debate is meaningless imo.

    A good point of balance would perhaps be one where most or every class has SOME sort of role that they bring to the table that nothing else really can in a useful capacity. A good example of this was engineer pre patch where it may have been a worse support than firebrand, but it brought superspeed to the table and therefore many guilds ran a scrapper mostly for the superspeed. You're obviously going to have classes that are the best at dealing damage or doing support, its the nature of the game, but a class shouldn't shut out all other options. We went from Guardian Warrior Elementalist Necro to Guardian Revenant Necro in the span of two expansions, who knows maybe soon zergs will just be guardians and necros. You'll never have every class being required 100% for a group, but having 4/9 or even 5/9 be good and viable in large scale combat would be nice.

    Theoretically, if each class had its own Boon that it was the sole supplier of, every class would potentially be sought after. If they also restricted all applications of such to 5 target max, you would have a much more strength/weakness system built into the game/group system. Certain Boons like Swift would still be available for every build etc, but have each class unable to give full uptime on those separatedly.

    Heck, they could even bring back combo fields! Have a separate one for each class, and make specific boons only available for using combos! Imagine how pugs would die if your only access to Stability was through blasting Light fields from guardians? (Yeah, that's not going to happen)

    But yes, too much work, and too much people screaming no to big changes to the game.

    Anyways, just saying that the current system been bloated too much, and needs a complete strip down, cleansing, and build it up from the start again.


    @MUDse.7623 said:
    so your main issue is 'balance' or what you precieve as such, indeed balance is one of the most important things in a 'competitive' mode.
    however you talk about balance in an encounter and not balance in the mode.
    no matter what you change about the professions, there is no reason to engage in a balanced fight when you strive to perform well in WvW. WvW is not a deathmatch, killing is not the primary objective. profession balance for WvW has to provide each profession a role within the mode, but they do not have to be balanced for insolated encounters.
    what is very unbalanced in WvW however and IMO the reason why WvW is not played to win but everyone does what they please: the teamsize/coverage. i dont think that alliances will be able to fix it, they alone wont even come close to it. however they are a step in the right direction.
    i understand why people do ask for encounter based profession balance, afterall many do not play to win the match but to win the encounter ahead. but i dont think the game should try to balance for anything else but the mode itself. if that seems impossible, change the mode design.

    All over, I have to agree with everything you said.

    Encounter: However I still think it is worth to reduce/remove the power-creep so classes can actually play, and not just watch characters explode on the screen. And hopefully that each class could have at least 1 semi-decent build for both Zerging and Roaming, without getting told to go level a class they really can't stand. Outside of that, balance doesn't really "matter" as much.

    Mode: Can only agree. And I strongly suspect this was part of the idea they had with EotM to test out how players reacted to 2 hours matches instead of week, obviously that wasn't popular. So we're essentially stuck with a game mode that is honestly impossible to balance due to the week system/points and ranking.

    (WvW as a Strategy-Game-Design reminds me all too much of an old largely unknown multiplayer-RTS game called Command & Conquer - Sole Survivor, where X players played, got a random unit from the C&C game, and found other players on the map and killed them. Imagine the fun of getting infantry 10 times in a row, when your opponent started as a flame tank)

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  • Scourges are easily, and I mean Easily dealt with by both rangers and revs, to the point scourges are all but nullified in groups. The fact that commanders don't want rangers of any sort in their parties is more a reflection on the commander and player mind set vs the balance.

    The only support aspect of the firebrand that needs toning down is the stab application. Wall of reflection also needs a heavy handed hit, other in the form of drastic increase in cooldown time, or it only reflects "x" amount of projectiles before disappearing.. such as 5.

    The rev's damage is fine, and so are it's cooldowns, the whole energy issue takes care of that. The one aspect that needs to go on the rev is it's high amount of group healing support which causes a mass amount of sustain. This makes some groups completely unkillable that make use of it.

    Don't need to say anything about Mirage, most would agree this class needs to be completely kneecapped and gutted. It provides no group support whatsoever, so it's potential in WvW is limited to griefing other players. Deadeye isn't far behind on that one; however, Deadeye can likely help keep the scourges at bay, just as rangers can.

  • @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Scourges are easily, and I mean Easily dealt with by both rangers and revs, to the point scourges are all but nullified in groups.

    I dont know about this one buddy

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    FB has too many skills added to the class but because of this you need classes like scorge. Its about as "22" as can be you MUST go after both classes in the same update to fix them in wvw.

    Revs problem is all of its big skills get culled when any thing else is going on to the point that there dmg and skill are comply lacking any tell for ppl. Its border line game exploitation.

    The other classes are not as bad and have high weakness that can be dealt with by using the right class but FB and scorge are way overpowers but because of each other. As for rev it just exploring the game because the skills are too flashy and get culled most of the time.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:
    1/ Scourge
    This spec suffers from a design problem. The fact that taking the defensive shade (Sand savant ) is always better than the offensive ones because of target cap is a problem while having F2 to F5 activate F1 is another. I could see some changes like those ones (just examples) to make gameplay more interesting:

    Devouring darkness: Reduce radius from 360 to 300, Increase CD from 10 to 15s, Keep 3 corrupts on target and change to 2 on enemies around.
    Path of corruption: Revert change in Scourge to 2 corrupts
    Dhuumfire: Make internal cast time 3s instead of 5s in PvP/WvW.
    Sand Savant: Change it to so it's only "Barriers affect 10 allied targets in a 300-360 radius."
    Manifest Sand shade: (Should be base for the 3 grand master traits Range only), 1 at the same time, 240 radius, 5 targets, 6s duration, 20s recharge time (Shouldn't last 10s and be 300 radius like right now because it occupies the field too much while 3 shades at a time makes it really spammy, 180 is bad and 3 targets is unpractical).
    Nefarious favor: make it melee only and not activate F1
    Sand Cascade: Make it melee only and not activate F1
    Garish Pillar: keep it the way it is (range + melee, affects F1 and 5 targets), add 1 torment on it
    Desert Shroud: keep it (both range + melee, affects F1 and 5 targets)

    2/ FB
    It's quite allright right now with all the nerfs it has taken this year which have corrected the design flaws of having 3 tomes on the same spec.
    1 FB covers perfectly stab on your group and 2 FB/grp is an overkill imo which is only seen on NA servers. Tempest covers regen+ prot better anyway.
    On the other hand a F3 chapter 4 nerf on radius from 360 to 300 would be nice. Any more nerfs would make 2 FB /grp mandatory which is bad for comp diversity.

    3/ Herald

    It's actually the most needed nerf atm after the nerfs to support in December. Spamming this high damage has become a problem and the main culprit is damage modifier.
    First, Anet need to fix the bug with Major Grand Master and Ferocious agression because their damage modifier are additive right now instead of multiplicative as they should.
    On top of it, Major Gand Major should be nerfed so its damage modifier is only 10% when active upkeep and Targeted Destruction could see a change from 7% to 5%.
    Hammer might need a power ratio reduction on their skill but i won't go into detail.
    All those nerfs at once might be too much but you see my point.

    4/ Ranger

    Those are changes i posted in another topic that i think are needed to reduce the over performing duelist abilities of Soulbeast while providing some more team work:
    I will still suffer from a lack of non duelist nor projectile weapon beside GS.

    Swoop (bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000
    Lesser signet of stone: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s
    Unflinching Fortitude: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s
    Pet's prowess: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25%
    Sic' Em: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25%
    Moa Stance: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD
    Leader of the Pack: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125%
    Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 target
    OR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.

    I don't know about druid, it needs a buff. What about 1 stab when entering or exiting Celestial avatar?

    I don't have time to do the rest but let's say:
    chrono's nerf was too focused on PvE and less as needed in WvW. Maybe they should sightly buff inspiration signet?
    Mirage has too much damage for the amount of self sustain it has
    Deadeye has too much damage for the range and amount of stealth/disengage abilities it has
    Daredevil's vault does too much damage
    War needs a nerf on Lesser endure pain from 4 to 2,5s, reduce cast time on WoD and decrease radius from 360 to 300
    Tempest could use frost aura on MH dagger or Focus

    If changes are rightly made, holo and reaper could get into the meta for large scale

    I really like your proposed changes to scourge, its a much more elegant solution than what I was proposing. Im a little hesitant to see firebrand be left in the state its in if scourge gets nerfed, maybe its something that needs to be seen if scourge ever gets changed. Other than that I agree with all the changes here

    Changes to f1-f5 wouldn't work as presented because I haven't taken CD nor 20men barrier on shroud into account. It just shows that not every shade has to work both range and melee while activating F1 at the same time. Add melee corrupting from punishment and you understand why Anet need to take a stand on how this spec should work.
    I am not against a future nerf on FB if reworking scourge makes it OP but as of now i think it 's unnecessary and should be reassessed after the rest .

  • I do like your comments and constructive critisism, and scourge and firebrands are Essentials for the group. This game does a good job in 'balancing' some of the classes towards a spot they want IT. But are horrible at doing so, the more elite specs that Will be released, the more imbalance IT Will bring. Its like a web, on which anet cant easily get out

    The problem anet encountered can be prooved in the simple matter of balance. anet not always have a clue, just gonna give necro An example:

    Scourge and reaper aim for the same spot(wvw based not player based): Reaper Being big damage melee cleave , and scourge shades can be used on downs so they cant be rezed (thus light shade cleave).

    Either classes had several balance patches on which anet tried to pull the classes to eachother, pre pof Reaper was (powerbased) in a great spot: they had 33%damage buff on Reaper skills, quickness in shroud and other damage buff ever since. They have autoattack of 7k now..but what am i complaining so has soulbeast?

    I find the most problems in 'trying to balance' with making skills a little more viable to spamming (be honest if you beserk and semi skilled in a class, spamming would be the best option if you face someone whose better).

    The spamming is where i see the problem with Both the current zerk-meta(firebrand, scourge and Herald) and roaming class (mirage and deadeyes) i suggest trying to work on this

    There's too many spamming options in this game currently, too many skills effect And sync well with traitlines, who sync with other traitlines etc. A good example is boonbeast on pvp who has 5 traitlines working on Just the healing skill. Or the Guardian: running valor makes IT run meditations and Smite condition on the healing: i suggest the syncing traitlines to be out from stacking. Thus running this: lit of wrath counts as 1 meditations and not 2 since the additional of lsc.

    Secondly i suggest an internal cooldown of option on firebrand on either the tomes or utilities, im talking here on 2 options:
    Give a ammo-based-currency on a tome (like 20 ammo on a tome) and each skill cost 1-5 ammo (depending on skillnumber). Spamming would not be rewarded on this matter
    Or
    Give no option to cast utility skills when in a tome, making it placebound and more 'thoughtfull' to use the tome.
    Both of this Will provide a harder way to sustain/support for firebrand giving other supports a viable option.

    The problem i find the same with mirage: its capable of attacking/defending at the same time, while other classes have to choose their utility skills (you need stunbreaks and condiclears otherwise you derped) mirage has that in dodges. Making it viable to take An all offensive skillbar, if i did this on necro, guard, ele id get punnished right away, why cant mirage?

    Secondly, its the only class who can Burst you down when they are dodging. So they only need to wait till you stupid enough to burst. The worst thing is the dodging animation/sound: since its allready surrounded by effects its really hard to tell. A combat tonic (kodan, watchknight etc) makes this even harder and more frustrating

    This choice of being offensive and defensive does screw a good 1v1: salt kills salt and cheese kills cheese. There's An escellation of IT i feel in the game for a long time. Wvw been a gamemode of veterans and new players, blobs and roamers and fairweathers and hardcore players, bandwagons and loyalists

    I love it how IT is...the gamemode is rewarding by itself. I just hope it Will be more designed for 10-20man groups with large variaties instead of either 40man groups and 1-2 man roaming.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is almost no amount of numerical nerfing to scourge that could happen that would make an engi or ranger or thief a suitable substitute. This is not a numbers issue its a design issue. The necro is THE anti melee dps everything about it is designed to keep melee off them without moving very much. No other class is designed this way.

  • Ni In.6578Ni In.6578 Member ✭✭✭

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Scourges are easily, and I mean Easily dealt with by both rangers and revs, to the point scourges are all but nullified in groups.

    I dont know about this one buddy

    Can confirm. Scourages are like popcorn in the microwave with a CoR and a leap.

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  • @Jski.6180 said:
    FB has too many skills added to the class but because of this you need classes like scorge. Its about as "22" as can be you MUST go after both classes in the same update to fix them in wvw.

    Revs problem is all of its big skills get culled when any thing else is going on to the point that there dmg and skill are comply lacking any tell for ppl. Its border line game exploitation.

    The other classes are not as bad and have high weakness that can be dealt with by using the right class but FB and scorge are way overpowers but because of each other. As for rev it just exploring the game because the skills are too flashy and get culled most of the time.

    people seem to ignore the rev skill animation cull. getting hit with 1200 range hammer damage without seeing a body flying through the air or the big hammer projection wind up happens regularly.

    Xterra/Marqeese[Ark]

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think we had a number of posts over the last few weeks that rangers still aren't welcome in squads. To your point above, Scourages are welcome and one of their hard counters are Soulbeasts. I play both, and other classes including core builds, and no I wouldn't say they are out of line of others, IMO. Without more boon conversion the game would come down to who has the more buffs win, its still pretty close now on those regards when it comes down to zerg on zerg.

    In regards to the state of WvW I would rank issues with map staleness pretty high and the balance between attackers and defenders right now highly favors attackers. There still isn't as much reason/reward for defending that there is for assaulting. The mentality of let them flip it is still pretty strong. There is also still the imbalance of higher numbers win in group fights as well that might be addressed by a review of the rez/revive/spike mechanics that has been floated on the forums under a number of threads. On the alliance front there still remains a lot we will need to wait and see to go on. On map staleness, by now I had hoped we would have been at a point where we have weekly rotations of maps that would encourage people to change up techniques each week depending on what maps were rotated in and out and each server would have a different map. Again I am biased coming from an RvR game that had a vast number of different maps from the start to fight across. Playing on two of the same maps for 5+ years and, well it's stale. I am not saying go with a mega map like ESO but new maps should have been introduced along the way. We get new maps every living story, add points of control and drop some of those into WvW to mix it up.

    To me the period approach in scoring still helps offset night capping, the carry over of participation was a needed and welcome change, the reward balance feels good and we have a path to legendary armor. The +1/-1 week system means we get a regular mix up of people we are facing unless you are in the very top or very bottom. And next to server closures the joint server approach has allowed people to meet people they never would have in the past and new friends can be made even if in 8 weeks you might be back to facing them on the otherside. WvW still remains to be end-game and by keeping the people and places we fight diverse I think a little can go a long way.

    Any way, 2 cents since you asked, and no I wouldn't rank class balance in there when talking about WvW changes since there is another team for balance already. I would target on what keeps a player coming back week over week and what would encourage others that left a reason to come back out and get into the dust up. Either case, good gaming to you!

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  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rev hammer do too much damage
    Rev hammer cooldowns too low
    Rev hammer animation too hard to see

    If they made changes to those things 6 months later people would be complaining about

    Rev hammer do too much damage
    Rev hammer cooldowns too low
    Rev hammer animation too hard to see
    Rev hammer has too many blast
    Rev hammer has too much projectile denial

    Rev hammer will always be a ranged damage dealer due to the nature of the skills, regardless of how much anet would nerf it. Better learn how to deal with it now than to complain for it to go the way of staff elementalists.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet needs to hire a developer or moderator with a "Git Gud" stamp for all these threads.

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  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    TLDR: Scourge and Firebrand are way too dominant and stifle any competition in their roles, Rev is alright but may need a look at its cds if scourge and fb get nerfed, Soulbeast mirage and deadeye are extremely unfun to fight against and have too much reward for how little risk they have, ...

    dont know on which Server you are playing. but firebrand and scourge are not the Problem imo. you say boon hate of scourge is too great? i just could laugh when i red that. in fact no number of scourges is able to deny the boonspam of revs and FBs,..... you have rev glint every 3 seconds 3-4 boons on 5 persons.

    you have warrior stances every seconds boons.

    you have Fb tomes and Symbols spamming every seconds tonnes of boons. the only way to kill a Frontline at These days is the combination of WoD and FULL BOMB of scourge boonhate because the WoD is denying reapply of boons. otherwise no Chance for scourges.

    in zergfights scourges are heavily outranged by revs and eles and never can pirate ship like you say cause they would get insta oneshotted when they just TRY to come in range for spiking.

    on the other side FB and their aegis spam is the only Thing that counter current rev hammer Trains. without FB aegis rev would one shoot everything in zergfights.
    herald is good balanced xD. i am main necro but i mostly Play power rev with hammer in zergs because this class is maximum busted. a class that is able to hit a full Minstrel FB with 10k dmg - sry but calling that balanced is just a bit delusional^^.

    tbh this days its harder to find necros for our zergs since most People prefer to Play rev because rev does more dmg, more boons, has more Sustain and mobility. only Thing scourge is better is boonhate. playing necro in zergs feels like sitting in a FB jail. go out and you got punished. and even devouring Darkness is just a joke when facing the massive boonspam current meta delivers.

    and the only classes that are not heavily presented in current zerg meta are the medium armor classes (thief, ranger, engi). These classe get mostly just used by guilds (DD staff for backline pressure), engi smoke field blast for invis,....

    all other classes have good representation. mostly 20% scourge (boonhate), 20% FB (Overall support), 20% herald (dmg) , 20% ele (dmg), 10 % Warriors(for push pressure and WoD), 10% mesmers (utility like Portal, vail, gravi).

    in zergmeta anet just should Focusing on bringing medium armor classes in the meta by improving their utilities they already have (like i wrote: Staff DD or engi with smokefields). for the rest, the zergmeta is fine. best we have since a Long time.

    in roaming the Problem with called classes (soulbeast, Mirage, i would add holo and core warri) is like you correctly say. just too much of everything in just 1 build. while DE is tamed i think. counterplay exist, thats fine.

    anet just Need to remove one of the Points (high mobility, high sustain, high dmg) from These builds to bring them in line with other classes.

    i mean necros can do some dmg, but are immobile af. (low mobility - low sustain - high dmg)
    eles can tank a bunch of People as weaver but lacking dmg than ( high Sustain - okayish mobility - low dmg)

    thats the way classes should be designed. strenghtess AND weaknesses. not just strenghts.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    anet should focus on improving the infrastructure of their game instead of expacs with op specs. it would bring way more people in. theyre finally doing so with alliances, swiss etc. whether or not it will help time will tell. that deals with balance (doesn't really but lets just say it does).

    as for a big change like scoring, idk. its always been about ppt vs fights. personally I think the maps are way too big. at times you have to run around for 30 minutes across multiple maps to find a fight. other times one server will be attacking your t3 tower on eb, another server will be attacking your t3 bay, (keeping both keep wps tapped naturally), and with your one 40 man blob what are you supposed to do? go for bay. then you lose your t3 tower. the next time its t2 eb keep vs t2 hills? the next time? it destroys any sort of progress (hope) and makes ppl log out since they feel its unfair. there isn't enough coverage available for non blob servers.

    imo anet shouldn't focus on reducing the amount of servers but the amount/size of maps. you can have only two servers and it could still take 30 minutes to find a fight, or you could be stretched too thin on coverage and slowly but inevitably lose. coverage/population is only soo important cuz there are too many kitten things to cover. the current system assumes ppl will spread out into 1-2 blobs and multiple small man groups (that actually defend structures). this sort of happens now but people are too unorganized and the enemy blob is too powerful vs that small group of defenders (unless youre yb).

    pew~

  • @DonkeyHaxor.4052 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    All they have to do is give other supports more access to stab if they want them to be more competitive with fb. It's really that simple.

    No, it really isn't. That is going to create a meta where its infinite stability and we have the same problem we have now except its a boon ball. The solution is to NERF the amount of things firebrand can do.

    We alreadg have meta of infinite stability that fb gives. But I agree with ur solution

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    TLDR: Scourge and Firebrand are way too dominant and stifle any competition in their roles, Rev is alright but may need a look at its cds if scourge and fb get nerfed, Soulbeast mirage and deadeye are extremely unfun to fight against and have too much reward for how little risk they have, ...

    dont know on which Server you are playing. but firebrand and scourge are not the Problem imo. you say boon hate of scourge is too great? i just could laugh when i red that. in fact no number of scourges is able to deny the boonspam of revs and FBs,..... you have rev glint every 3 seconds 3-4 boons on 5 persons.

    you have warrior stances every seconds boons.

    you have Fb tomes and Symbols spamming every seconds tonnes of boons. the only way to kill a Frontline at These days is the combination of WoD and FULL BOMB of scourge boonhate because the WoD is denying reapply of boons. otherwise no Chance for scourges.

    in zergfights scourges are heavily outranged by revs and eles and never can pirate ship like you say cause they would get insta oneshotted when they just TRY to come in range for spiking.

    on the other side FB and their aegis spam is the only Thing that counter current rev hammer Trains. without FB aegis rev would one shoot everything in zergfights.
    herald is good balanced xD. i am main necro but i mostly Play power rev with hammer in zergs because this class is maximum busted. a class that is able to hit a full Minstrel FB with 10k dmg - sry but calling that balanced is just a bit delusional^^.

    tbh this days its harder to find necros for our zergs since most People prefer to Play rev because rev does more dmg, more boons, has more Sustain and mobility. only Thing scourge is better is boonhate. playing necro in zergs feels like sitting in a FB jail. go out and you got punished. and even devouring Darkness is just a joke when facing the massive boonspam current meta delivers.

    and the only classes that are not heavily presented in current zerg meta are the medium armor classes (thief, ranger, engi). These classe get mostly just used by guilds (DD staff for backline pressure), engi smoke field blast for invis,....

    all other classes have good representation. mostly 20% scourge (boonhate), 20% FB (Overall support), 20% herald (dmg) , 20% ele (dmg), 10 % Warriors(for push pressure and WoD), 10% mesmers (utility like Portal, vail, gravi).

    in zergmeta anet just should Focusing on bringing medium armor classes in the meta by improving their utilities they already have (like i wrote: Staff DD or engi with smokefields). for the rest, the zergmeta is fine. best we have since a Long time.

    in roaming the Problem with called classes (soulbeast, Mirage, i would add holo and core warri) is like you correctly say. just too much of everything in just 1 build. while DE is tamed i think. counterplay exist, thats fine.

    anet just Need to remove one of the Points (high mobility, high sustain, high dmg) from These builds to bring them in line with other classes.

    i mean necros can do some dmg, but are immobile af. (low mobility - low sustain - high dmg)
    eles can tank a bunch of People as weaver but lacking dmg than ( high Sustain - okayish mobility - low dmg)

    thats the way classes should be designed. strenghtess AND weaknesses. not just strenghts.

    OP fails to understand that Rev is a problem in its current condition but don't say that scourge isn't either. The radius and duration of their shade to be sure to corrupt boons is just insane. You numbers are off, no zerg plays with 10 scourge nor 10 weaver. It's more like 15-20 and 5. And no one plays 5 chronos + 5 SB anymore.

    EDIT: Support got nerfed, damage need to follow.

  • The main issue with WvW is T3 structures. It is just not fun to attack those. PvSiege needs to be adjusted. I'd personally like to see a week where towers do not upgrade at all. Make people actually fight.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ni In.6578 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Scourges are easily, and I mean Easily dealt with by both rangers and revs, to the point scourges are all but nullified in groups.

    I dont know about this one buddy

    Can confirm. Scourages are like popcorn in the microwave with a CoR and a leap.

    They grow to enormous size so you can cover then in butter and eat them?

    Wait, wait I get it... the butter is the barrier haha.

  • Vlad Filen.8049Vlad Filen.8049 Member ✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019

    Scoring system should really change , they should gives more point in prim time and less in night camp.
    also ppt during night camp should be harder by adding more Ai to protect tours and keeps especially with BB and Frenchy ( Eu) who mostly night camp and ruin the skirmish . just look at the actual Eu T2 , when Kodach rage quieted because of Jad night camp .

    and for build , we need more melee meta build , Scourges are kill fun , especially that my server is full of melee players

  • When did the balance team have any kind of discussion about skills, traits, weapons, armor, trinkets in the WvW forums. Anybody ever have a discussion with a balance team dev on these forums?

    /thread

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019

    @Vlad Filen.8049 said:
    Scoring system should really change , they should gives more point in prim time and less in night camp.
    also ppt during night camp should be harder by adding more Ai to protect tours and keeps especially with BB and Frenchy ( Eu) who mostly night camp and ruin the skirmish . just look at the actual Eu T2 , when Kodach rage quieted because of Jad night camp .

    and for build , we need more melee meta build , Scourges are kill fun , especially that my server is full of melee players

    I agree with you, skirmishes points should be lower at night while 2 skirmishes during prime time should give double.
    Don't turn it into a MU thread. It has to do with culture.
    Germans: play a lot during morning, school stops earlier and have diner quite early (around 19:00 like british) and stop playing around 22:00.
    French have a better coverage overall but don't really play during morning, school finish later, eat around 20:00 and raids stop around 23:00; They don't really have night crews anymore and past 01:00 it's mostly roamers and small ppt guilds.
    Spanish mostly eat late, start playing around 22:00 and since there is almost no one else to fight at this hour have turned into a full PPT server

  • In my server wvw is essentially scourge wars with people picking scraps off on the side. Blobs of all sizes usually consist mostly of scourges and fb. They literally walk forward covering massive areas with Condi aoe’s so anyone getting close here’s cc’d and Condi to death in seconds. Which ever blob can cover the larger area/has more scourges win. So I’d say thier presence and impact on zergs needs toned down. Donno how it is on other servers.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    TLDR: Scourge and Firebrand are way too dominant and stifle any competition in their roles, Rev is alright but may need a look at its cds if scourge and fb get nerfed, Soulbeast mirage and deadeye are extremely unfun to fight against and have too much reward for how little risk they have, ...

    dont know on which Server you are playing. but firebrand and scourge are not the Problem imo. you say boon hate of scourge is too great? i just could laugh when i red that. in fact no number of scourges is able to deny the boonspam of revs and FBs,..... you have rev glint every 3 seconds 3-4 boons on 5 persons.

    you have warrior stances every seconds boons.

    you have Fb tomes and Symbols spamming every seconds tonnes of boons. the only way to kill a Frontline at These days is the combination of WoD and FULL BOMB of scourge boonhate because the WoD is denying reapply of boons. otherwise no Chance for scourges.

    in zergfights scourges are heavily outranged by revs and eles and never can pirate ship like you say cause they would get insta oneshotted when they just TRY to come in range for spiking.

    on the other side FB and their aegis spam is the only Thing that counter current rev hammer Trains. without FB aegis rev would one shoot everything in zergfights.
    herald is good balanced xD. i am main necro but i mostly Play power rev with hammer in zergs because this class is maximum busted. a class that is able to hit a full Minstrel FB with 10k dmg - sry but calling that balanced is just a bit delusional^^.

    tbh this days its harder to find necros for our zergs since most People prefer to Play rev because rev does more dmg, more boons, has more Sustain and mobility. only Thing scourge is better is boonhate. playing necro in zergs feels like sitting in a FB jail. go out and you got punished. and even devouring Darkness is just a joke when facing the massive boonspam current meta delivers.

    and the only classes that are not heavily presented in current zerg meta are the medium armor classes (thief, ranger, engi). These classe get mostly just used by guilds (DD staff for backline pressure), engi smoke field blast for invis,....

    all other classes have good representation. mostly 20% scourge (boonhate), 20% FB (Overall support), 20% herald (dmg) , 20% ele (dmg), 10 % Warriors(for push pressure and WoD), 10% mesmers (utility like Portal, vail, gravi).

    in zergmeta anet just should Focusing on bringing medium armor classes in the meta by improving their utilities they already have (like i wrote: Staff DD or engi with smokefields). for the rest, the zergmeta is fine. best we have since a Long time.

    in roaming the Problem with called classes (soulbeast, Mirage, i would add holo and core warri) is like you correctly say. just too much of everything in just 1 build. while DE is tamed i think. counterplay exist, thats fine.

    anet just Need to remove one of the Points (high mobility, high sustain, high dmg) from These builds to bring them in line with other classes.

    i mean necros can do some dmg, but are immobile af. (low mobility - low sustain - high dmg)
    eles can tank a bunch of People as weaver but lacking dmg than ( high Sustain - okayish mobility - low dmg)

    thats the way classes should be designed. strenghtess AND weaknesses. not just strenghts.

    OP fails to understand that Rev is a problem in its current condition but don't say that scourge isn't either. The radius and duration of their shade to be sure to corrupt boons is just insane. You numbers are off, no zerg plays with 10 scourge nor 10 weaver. It's more like 15-20 and 5. And no one plays 5 chronos + 5 SB anymore.

    EDIT: Support got nerfed, damage need to follow.

    Scourge has seen nerf after nerf. Big shade cd was tripled, F-skill cd was increased by 50-200%, nerf of Dhuumfire, to name a few major ones. The only buff was devouring darkness, which requires curses as a traitline. Nerf it more?

  • @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caysadia.7405 said:

    TLDR: Scourge and Firebrand are way too dominant and stifle any competition in their roles, Rev is alright but may need a look at its cds if scourge and fb get nerfed, Soulbeast mirage and deadeye are extremely unfun to fight against and have too much reward for how little risk they have, ...

    dont know on which Server you are playing. but firebrand and scourge are not the Problem imo. you say boon hate of scourge is too great? i just could laugh when i red that. in fact no number of scourges is able to deny the boonspam of revs and FBs,..... you have rev glint every 3 seconds 3-4 boons on 5 persons.

    you have warrior stances every seconds boons.

    you have Fb tomes and Symbols spamming every seconds tonnes of boons. the only way to kill a Frontline at These days is the combination of WoD and FULL BOMB of scourge boonhate because the WoD is denying reapply of boons. otherwise no Chance for scourges.

    in zergfights scourges are heavily outranged by revs and eles and never can pirate ship like you say cause they would get insta oneshotted when they just TRY to come in range for spiking.

    on the other side FB and their aegis spam is the only Thing that counter current rev hammer Trains. without FB aegis rev would one shoot everything in zergfights.
    herald is good balanced xD. i am main necro but i mostly Play power rev with hammer in zergs because this class is maximum busted. a class that is able to hit a full Minstrel FB with 10k dmg - sry but calling that balanced is just a bit delusional^^.

    tbh this days its harder to find necros for our zergs since most People prefer to Play rev because rev does more dmg, more boons, has more Sustain and mobility. only Thing scourge is better is boonhate. playing necro in zergs feels like sitting in a FB jail. go out and you got punished. and even devouring Darkness is just a joke when facing the massive boonspam current meta delivers.

    and the only classes that are not heavily presented in current zerg meta are the medium armor classes (thief, ranger, engi). These classe get mostly just used by guilds (DD staff for backline pressure), engi smoke field blast for invis,....

    all other classes have good representation. mostly 20% scourge (boonhate), 20% FB (Overall support), 20% herald (dmg) , 20% ele (dmg), 10 % Warriors(for push pressure and WoD), 10% mesmers (utility like Portal, vail, gravi).

    in zergmeta anet just should Focusing on bringing medium armor classes in the meta by improving their utilities they already have (like i wrote: Staff DD or engi with smokefields). for the rest, the zergmeta is fine. best we have since a Long time.

    in roaming the Problem with called classes (soulbeast, Mirage, i would add holo and core warri) is like you correctly say. just too much of everything in just 1 build. while DE is tamed i think. counterplay exist, thats fine.

    anet just Need to remove one of the Points (high mobility, high sustain, high dmg) from These builds to bring them in line with other classes.

    i mean necros can do some dmg, but are immobile af. (low mobility - low sustain - high dmg)
    eles can tank a bunch of People as weaver but lacking dmg than ( high Sustain - okayish mobility - low dmg)

    thats the way classes should be designed. strenghtess AND weaknesses. not just strenghts.

    OP fails to understand that Rev is a problem in its current condition but don't say that scourge isn't either. The radius and duration of their shade to be sure to corrupt boons is just insane. You numbers are off, no zerg plays with 10 scourge nor 10 weaver. It's more like 15-20 and 5. And no one plays 5 chronos + 5 SB anymore.

    EDIT: Support got nerfed, damage need to follow.

    Scourge has seen nerf after nerf. Big shade cd was tripled, F-skill cd was increased by 50-200%, nerf of Dhuumfire, to name a few major ones. The only buff was devouring darkness, which requires curses as a traitline. Nerf it more?

    It had multiple nerfs and its still meta. Imo the biggest problem is as mentioned: shades are to big, while they still pulsate all these condis around scourge, making to much of area denial. For me, the dmg could be even higher but at the cost of aoe size.
    Also I think all stability in this game should have much lower duration. Right now u just spam stab, instead of using it when the bombs are happening. Same in pvp. If enemy has fb in team, u can't cc anything. Stability should require more thinking instead of just spamming when ur getting into combat

  • It’s the design of scourge and the people’s nature to abuse it to a ridiculous level. U get 10 scourges that just walk and spam and rewarded for such mindless skill spamming the majority of kills,it’s dumb. If people were different and didn’t care about just results and how it kills the fun for everyone in the battles. Maybe if there was a limit on scourges in groups but that obviously isn’t going to happen. I get that their supposed to be good in groups but it gets ridiculous when there’s a group of them and the whole floors a kill zone for soo many meters around the battle zone. It’s just too much

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    It’s the design of scourge and the people’s nature to abuse it to a ridiculous level. U get 10 scourges that just walk and spam and rewarded for such mindless skill spamming the majority of kills,it’s dumb. If people were different and didn’t care about just results and how it kills the fun for everyone in the battles. Maybe if there was a limit on scourges in groups but that obviously isn’t going to happen. I get that their supposed to be good in groups but it gets ridiculous when there’s a group of them and the whole floors a kill zone for soo many meters around the battle zone. It’s just too much

    Everything in this game is a huge spam when it comes to huge zergs, regardless of game mode and class. Scourges are at least easy to counter with longer range spike.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It doesn't really make sense to complain about "spam" when the general design of every class is to have relatively low cds on weapon sets and utilities at least compared to other mmos I've played. In aion, for example, many major cds were on 5 minute or 10 minute cooldowns which meant you got to use them once or twice in a fight. There are only a few skills like that in gw2.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019

    All classes are built around spamming skills? Really?

  • Yeah ur right scourges are fine in how their mechanics/aoe’s work in zergs lol donno what I was thinking

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    All classes are built around spamming skills? Really?

    Yes, actually. Name some that aren't?

    There are some skills with long cool downs, but overall, each class and build is geared towards pressing attack/damage dealing skills as fast as is possible, with the exception of FB which is geared towards dropping boons and heals as fast as is possible.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019

    By ur argument all skill require pressing bottons than therefore are designed as spamming? So if arenet deside a class that just walks forward spamming large aoe’s everywhere and stack with allies doingvthe same delete most opponents in seconds in huge area’s around battles forcing everyone to die or stay on outskirts of battle picking off the scraps,this is ok cuz other classes have to press a button to use skills? Oh wait I just described scourge.Than gues all nerf threads and balance itself is moot because every class must be balanced because it’s mech are based around pressing buttons to preform a action lol right! A scourge mindlessly spamming is far different than almost any class spamming there skill on a skill to reward level, look at that ranger,engi and thief just spammInfo his skills and the equal impact it has with scourge lol

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