Make Dagger storm prevent capture-point contribution

One of the most notirous things I find about thieves is they're able to stall a point for more than 10 sec through evasion spam, notably dagger storm with it's 4¼s evade frame which is the longest evasion frame in game, can't be punished outside of shocking aura, is limted to ele outside of rune of the surging, which nobody runs either. It's light countered by line of warding as that could interrupt, but is difficult and specific in itself. Those classes outside of guardian and ele can't do anything about DS which is damn busted. A thief is not a node holder and shouldn't be by default when it's the best rotational roamer in the game. I've seen some few games decided by last minute prevention or by just simply being there first to contest cetra point. At the very least dagger storm should fall in the same category as elixir s.

Should say the same about most of FB's blocks and Endure Pain, SoS, Blurred Frenzy, and Mirage Cloak. It's not a true invuln, so unlike Elixir S, it does not cleanse/prevent current conditions from ticking.

I don't like the skill just because it's a lazy way to have thief deal with the powercreep in the game, but it's hardly game-breaking.

And seeing as there are other skills as you mention which shut it down, if the thief suddenly becomes a FoTM pick for point capture/defense (which it won't), the meta will change and people will just run those denial skills. That's how a metagame works (a meta does not really mean Most Effective Tactic Available - whoever invented that term is dumb). A game-state which changes is only a good thing.

The thing about endure pain or cetra is they can responded in other fashion like being cc'd off node or unblockable cucked in some form of way, they don't have such an absurd lengthy evade frame which they can then follow up with sword3, dodge, agility sign, more doges, withdraw and cetra (without interacting with the opponent). Sure condi can still tick whilst using that but you tend to use DS beforehand. (You can stil use shadowstep without interrupting the skill!)The other elsewise "soft counter" is soaking up dmg with retal but that doesn't explicitly prevent them from continuing . Thieves in general can jump on a node faster than any other class and prevent capturing up to more than10s in desperate situation whilst other rotational roamers don't have that same capability of reaching that node in time and then hold it for near same amout of duration. Like said the fastest node runner shouldn't have the capaility of holding a node better than a bunker spec, that is absurd.

As Deceiver sai in phirst apostrophe.Its only dagger storm that needs nerf

@Safandula.8723 said:As Deceiver sai in phirst apostrophe.Its only dagger storm that needs nerf

Yes, that is exactly what my rant is about, I don't mind or care about the length of it's evade frame in that sense but more so that if it stays with capture point contribution, an evade frame that goes beyond 2s is a bit tad too much. Either it needs a better rework or just entirely lose it's capture point contribution, it's also instant after all (unlike others evades like unrelenting assault which can be played around). Main point: thief is the fastest rotational class and shouldn't have the side luxury of holding a node a considerable amount of time because of DS.

I love how daggerstorm is a problem due to 4 sec evade when most other professions like guard have multiple blocks,some lasting 4 seconds themselves and a 3 sec invulnerability. Thief has a 11/4 second block or somthing and DS does 4 sec of evade,is it because it does damage too? Not saying DS doesn’t need toned down but compared to where the games at is it that op? Can a guard,warrior or soulbeast not stay on point as long or longer using invulnerability and blocks? NOt saying a thief should be holding a point just saying seems strange hearing a complaint about DS allowing a thief to hold a point when there’s so many skills on so many classes that would allow same thing.

Thief has enough evade uptime, it's the other already mentioned abilities that need to be toned down. Signet of stone, endure pain lasts to long.IMO the biggest problem(outside of duration) is the inconsistency of dealing dmg (sometimes u deal 60 k dmg, and sometimes almost 0)

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love how daggerstorm is a problem due to 4 sec evade when most other professions like guard have multiple blocks,some lasting 4 seconds themselves and a 3 sec invulnerability. Thief has a 11/4 second block or somthing and DS does 4 sec of evade,is it because it does damage too? Not saying DS doesn’t need toned down but compared to where the games at is it that op? Can a guard,warrior or soulbeast not stay on point as long or longer using invulnerability and blocks? NOt saying a thief should be holding a point just saying seems strange hearing a complaint about DS allowing a thief to hold a point when there’s so many skills on so many classes that would allow same thing.Invulnerabilities do prevent capture point contesting (guards trying to hold a point with renewed focus is always good for a laugh).

An evasion is even a stonger form of invulnerability because it does not prevent capture point contesting. So the mechanic of daggerstorm is debateable. The very few counters are not relevant - basically shocking aura is the only one as the thief is not forced to cross the guard or necro ring which would interrupt dagger storm.

The 4s evasion on dagger storm was broken the moment it was introduced. It's not gamebreaking, but it's maximum annoyance up to ridiculousness when it's resetted via improvisation and can be used twice in a row. All in all a good example for ANet's long list of skill design fails.

Can I have a 4s invulnerability on chilled to the bone please? I do trade the stability for it like thieves did with dagger storm - no problem at all!

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love how daggerstorm is a problem due to 4 sec evade when most other professions like guard have multiple blocks,some lasting 4 seconds themselves and a 3 sec invulnerability. Thief has a 11/4 second block or somthing and DS does 4 sec of evade,is it because it does damage too? Not saying DS doesn’t need toned down but compared to where the games at is it that op? Can a guard,warrior or soulbeast not stay on point as long or longer using invulnerability and blocks? NOt saying a thief should be holding a point just saying seems strange hearing a complaint about DS allowing a thief to hold a point when there’s so many skills on so many classes that would allow same thing.Invulnerabilities do prevent capture point contesting (guards trying to hold a point with renewed focus is always good for a laugh).

Thief would love ur hp,especially with shroud thrown in, can argue that stuff all day lol necro would love the evades etc lol. I’m just saying thief is glassy by nature and uses evades for its sustainability. If all the powercrept defences were dropped of most classes necro excluded cuz shroud isn’t that great for sustain than thief losing some evade time might not be to bad even given how glassy it is. Maybe the ability for it being used twice via trait should be removed.

@Safandula.8723 said:(sometimes u deal 60 k dmg, and sometimes almost 0)

That was a typo of a century I suppose (hope)

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:(sometimes u deal 60 k dmg, and sometimes almost 0)

if ur in a teamfight, daggers are bouncing, if all 5 targets are hit perfectly they all may receive dmg of around 12k. it is extreme situation but its possible. in wvw my daggerstorm in blob made 100k. only dagger storm

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:(sometimes u deal 60 k dmg, and sometimes almost 0)

Eh, for a second I thought you meant to a single target

U sure a dagger didn’t clip a bird?

Kinda hard to hit bird in a blob

Just never seen DS do 100k, I thought u meant single target haha poor reading comprehension on my part

@SevenAce.3067 said:One of the most notirous things I find about thieves is they're able to stall a point for more than 10 sec through evasion spam, notably dagger storm with it's 4¼s evade frame which is the longest evasion frame in game, can't be punished outside of shocking aura, is limted to ele outside of rune of the surging, which nobody runs either. It's light countered by line of warding as that could interrupt, but is difficult and specific in itself. Those classes outside of guardian and ele can't do anything about DS which is kitten busted. A thief is not a node holder and shouldn't be by default when it's the best rotational roamer in the game. I've seen some few games decided by last minute prevention or by just simply being there first to contest cetra point. At the very least dagger storm should fall in the same category as elixir s.

The game already denies points when Thief stealth, now you're suggesting that points should also be denied when they evade. If that would be the case, any profession using evades, stealth, block, invul, etc. should also be denied points. If that would be the rule, then it should be applied to every profession using such tactic and not exclusive to one profession. There's already too many handicaps placed on the Thief.

@SevenAce.3067 said:DS isnt that powerful nor unstopable that it could decide the game 10 out of 10 times. DS is at best casted when you need to finish up those few downed/near death opponents or when you are almost dead and you need to save ur life from death. As far as i can see what you write here you are Bronze at best so please dont cry and simply git gud. You as a thief have enogh life to withstant DS with 2 dodges. Which i beleive is standard amount of dodges for all classes not to mention all the other skills that block evade etc. There is crap ton of other BS in this game that needs to be dealt with and DS is certainly not one of them. Good day

Dagger storm is strong but in line with it's cooldown. Problem arises from improvisation + swindlers equilibrium giving RNG aspect to it - if you get lucky and nail cooldown reset for dagger storm, that brings it over the top. Rework/tweak on improvisation would be a good change imo.(good for both sides - players playing on thief and playing against thief. It would shut down 2 daggerstorm shenenigans but if thief get something less powerful but without rng element, it would improve thief as well - kinda depends how would they change it up)

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:(sometimes u deal 60 k dmg, and sometimes almost 0)

he meant to say''sometims you deal 60 dmg and sometimes 0''

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@SevenAce.3067 said:One of the most notirous things I find about thieves is they're able to stall a point for more than 10 sec through evasion spam, notably dagger storm with it's 4¼s evade frame which is the longest evasion frame in game, can't be punished outside of shocking aura, is limted to ele outside of rune of the surging, which nobody runs either. It's light countered by line of warding as that could interrupt, but is difficult and specific in itself. Those classes outside of guardian and ele can't do anything about DS which is kitten busted. A thief is not a node holder and shouldn't be by default when it's the best rotational roamer in the game. I've seen some few games decided by last minute prevention or by just simply being there first to contest cetra point. At the very least dagger storm should fall in the same category as elixir s.

WOWI actually have to agree with Vin this time. And i acatually have to agree 100%. Dude are you okay? What happened? How did this happen? Am I going crazy?

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@SevenAce.3067 said:DS isnt that powerful nor unstopable that it could decide the game 10 out of 10 times. DS is at best casted when you need to finish up those few downed/near death opponents or when you are almost dead and you need to save ur life from death. As far as i can see what you write here you are Bronze at best so please dont cry and simply git gud. You as a thief have enogh life to withstant DS with 2 dodges. Which i beleive is standard amount of dodges for all classes not to mention all the other skills that block evade etc. There is kitten ton of other BS in this game that needs to be dealt with and DS is certainly not one of them. Good day

Tell me than, how often do u see thiefs taking basi? Or thiefs guild(lol) ? 5%of thiefs? Mby 10? I doubt. Op is kinda right, ds needs nerf, nor fun to play with or against. 4s is way to much

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@SevenAce.3067 said:DS isnt that powerful nor unstopable that it could decide the game 10 out of 10 times. DS is at best casted when you need to finish up those few downed/near death opponents or when you are almost dead and you need to save ur life from death. As far as i can see what you write here you are Bronze at best so please dont cry and simply git gud. You as a thief have enogh life to withstant DS with 2 dodges. Which i beleive is standard amount of dodges for all classes not to mention all the other skills that block evade etc. There is kitten ton of other BS in this game that needs to be dealt with and DS is certainly not one of them. Good day

Ever class has one or 2 elites that are used far more than others,same as traits, just because it’s the best pick or one of the best picks doesn’t mean it’s op,can mean others are borderline useless as well

just nerf the dumbass 900 range

Yeah 600 prob be enough I’d think

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love how daggerstorm is a problem due to 4 sec evade when most other professions like guard have multiple blocks,some lasting 4 seconds themselves and a 3 sec invulnerability. Thief has a 11/4 second block or somthing and DS does 4 sec of evade,is it because it does damage too? Not saying DS doesn’t need toned down but compared to where the games at is it that op? Can a guard,warrior or soulbeast not stay on point as long or longer using invulnerability and blocks? NOt saying a thief should be holding a point just saying seems strange hearing a complaint about DS allowing a thief to hold a point when there’s so many skills on so many classes that would allow same thing.Invulnerabilities do prevent capture point contesting (guards trying to hold a point with renewed focus is always good for a laugh).

That's a pretty big strawman and I hope you're aware of that.And anyone disputing the old SoS - which basically did provide extended periods of damage negation via more effective shroud management - didn't know what they were talking about, and the trait should be reverted.

DS is basically the same as a block in respects to the meta and point contention to be honest. The major criticisms that are worth considering further are the damage/range components being so heavily buffed as Stand mentioned, and the fact it can reset via Improv (and SwEq) based on RNG as Arioch mentioned. The defensive component really isn't that stellar given the sustain we see on so many other things these days. And if not for such absurd durability on most other classes I'd agree fully the skill should be basically deleted because it would be superfluous to thief's sustain.

So yeah if we see nerfed sustain across the board and nerfed damage as well, and what does and doesn't contribute to points (like Blurred Frenzy, blocks, damage invulns, etc.) gets normalized to all not contribute to point capture, then I'd agree with the notion completely, but I think it's a non-issue and is really just the result of greater powercreep and builds that can both tank damage via damage prevention while also being capable of one-shotting people.

It could see some damage/range reduction/overall aggressive power reduction and maybe even be made into a typeless skill so it can't benefit from Improv resets. But that's kind of all it can afford as of right this moment.

Sign me up for DS nerfs if we see the rest of the nonsense cut down, though. Like I said, I hate the skill and agree the evade is really long such that it's low-risk high-reward. But it's really not overbearing in terms of power at all, and sadly, it's more necessary than anything right now when we look at current profession capabilities.