NCsoft 4Q 2018 earning - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

NCsoft 4Q 2018 earning

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Comments

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Openworld/story
    Like always. An update every 3 month for (at max) 2 weeks of content.

    Alot of players ( me included) are just not Motivated to play right now.

    The Balance Patch is a decision point for me.

    LS maps last closer to 1 month.

    Maybe the balance team went to join the dungeons team ....

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    they only make so much profit because they use unethical / predatory monetization strategies (even worse than the usual asia MMO).

    Sure ... but that doesn't stop them from making that money or any other company from capitalizing on it. The bottomline is that the threat to PC MMO's aren't other PC MMO's ... it's mobile platform.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    This is what I took away too. Anet needs to make a mobile game if they want to survive.

    I just hope that Anet makes it with the depth of GW1 in that it will play well on tablets, or a chromebook, or maybe even HTML5 browser. There is no reason they couldnt have a great gameplay game like GW1 for mobile.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    they only make so much profit because they use unethical / predatory monetization strategies (even worse than the usual asia MMO).

    Sure ... but that doesn't stop them from making that money or any other company from capitalizing on it. The bottomline is that the threat to PC MMO's aren't other PC MMO's ... it's mobile platform.

    but it would be risky to focus on just one business, since more lootbox laws could come at any time. plus even this market will eventually become saturated. so any business that is worth being called a business will see that making mobile games and pc games is not mutually exclusive

  • BlueJin.4127BlueJin.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    I have never been, nor will I ever worry that mobile gaming will kill hardcore gaming. It's just not gonna happen. Mobile games and hardcore games are not mutually exclusive, just like there are different sports, different smartphones, different entertainment, etc. If games become 10 times more popular than movies, for example, movies will not die. Also, multiplatform gaming companies think of mobile as extra projects (just like how they make PC AND console games), not replacements. That's because they know mobile games and hardcore games cater to different crowds and they'll want to make more money covering all audiences. And since there are limited audiences for each platform, making 10 mobile games isn't necessary a better decision than making less games covering multiple platforms. It's also cheaper to port existing games to other platforms than making 10 new games for just one platform.

    What I am concerned about, is move to streaming and games as a service. These are things many game companies actively want to switch.

    In any case, according to the report, mobile games make up 53% of sales. According to wiki, there are currently 8 PC games (including GW1 from 2005 and Aion from 2009) and 6 mobile games. There are currently 7 titles in development, covering PC, mobile, and consoles.

    ^^

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    I have never been, nor will I ever worry that mobile gaming will kill hardcore gaming. It's just not gonna happen. Mobile games and hardcore games are not mutually exclusive, just like there are different sports, different smartphones, different entertainment, etc. If games become 10 times more popular than movies, for example, movies will not die. Also, multiplatform gaming companies think of mobile as extra projects (just like how they make PC AND console games), not replacements. That's because they know mobile games and hardcore games cater to different crowds and they'll want to make more money covering all audiences. And since there are limited audiences for each platform, making 10 mobile games isn't necessary a better decision than making less games covering multioke platforms.

    What I am concerned about, is move to streaming and games as a service. These are things many game companies actively want to switch.

    In any case, according to the report, mobile games make up 53% of sales. According to wiki, there are currently 8 PC games (including GW1 from 2005 and Aion from 2009) and 6 mobile games. There are currently 7 titles in development, covering PC, mobile, and consoles.

    You should be because it won't kill it, but it will compete for resources within a game company, or the industry at large. If you still want a variety of high quality PC-based MMO's being released to the market using the latest tech, mobile gaming is a serious threat to that.

    I don't get the idea that there is a concern about moving to games as a service ... the structure of GW2 as a business is fundamentally a service already.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • BlueJin.4127BlueJin.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You should be because it won't kill it, but it will compete for resources within a game company, or the industry at large. If you still want a variety of high quality PC-based MMO's being released to the market using the latest tech, mobile gaming is a serious threat to that.

    I don't get the idea that there is a concern about moving to games as a service ... the structure of GW2 as a business is fundamentally a service already.

    No, I really shouldn't be because I used to work at a game company and have more knowledge in this area. :smile: If companies want more mobile projects, they'll hire more people to cover more projects. They don't just switch around a fixed number of employees and resources, nor do they want to remain small. They try to expand up to what they think they can handle since bigger companies generally make more. It doesn't mean it'll have 0 effect on hardcore gaming resources, but it's really not something to worry about. There's also the fact that games, their platforms, and means of controlling games will evolve. In years, we could very well be playing hardcore games on mobile devices (or whatever new devices that exist then) just as happily as we're doing on PC now.

    As for gaming as a service, this is a concern for offline games. Rather than companies releasing a game and having the customer pay $60 to own it, companies think charging a monthly subscription is better way to continue receiving money. There's also the issue of piracy that's pushing for this. Games as a service would really kill piracy. And for a customer, it's not just the cost of sub based streaming that's a concern. There's lag and general bandwidth limit. ISP's already don't like their customers streaming too much. Having gamers stream constantly (and games will require better image quality than movies) could up cost of internet service, for example.

    Of course, I could very well be worrying about nothing. As games evolve they will be different. People could very well be needlessly worrying about how current set ups will work in the future, when the future will have a completely different set up than now.

    EDIT - OMG, I apologize for the constant edits. I'm just trying to figure out how to best get the point across without a wall of text.

    ^^

  • I also have stopped buying stuff from the store. A complete lack of items that add value to my experience is the main issue. Why is it so hard to add AWESOME looking costumes. Seriously, Anet artists, go steal designs from some other mmos. It is clear the art team is too tame.

    Also, the lack of end game content that is not raiding is a huge issue. Why is Anet wasting resources on raids, when you could adding in new systems that keep ALL players interested and moving forward? I do not understand the leadership for this game. There needs to be a serious shake up. It is 2019 and we still don't have an official companion app? Are you kidding me?

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Openworld/story
    Like always. An update every 3 month for (at max) 2 weeks of content.

    Alot of players ( me included) are just not Motivated to play right now.

    The Balance Patch is a decision point for me.

    LS maps last closer to 1 month.

    Maybe the balance team went to join the dungeons team ....

    Most Lw updates are less then a week ok content for me, while doing everything the patch has to offer.

    It only lasts longer if there are heavy timegates.
    Like this episodes Branded Mass grind and the Dwarven Chest AP.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @wickedkae.4980 said:
    I also have stopped buying stuff from the store. A complete lack of items that add value to my experience is the main issue. Why is it so hard to add AWESOME looking costumes. Seriously, Anet artists, go steal designs from some other mmos. It is clear the art team is too tame.

    Also, the lack of end game content that is not raiding is a huge issue. Why is Anet wasting resources on raids, when you could adding in new systems that keep ALL players interested and moving forward? I do not understand the leadership for this game. There needs to be a serious shake up. It is 2019 and we still don't have an official companion app? Are you kidding me?

    Why do we need a companion app we dont have any companions.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    You’re right! The report does show mobile revenue outperforming PC revenue. Perhaps we will get a GW3 soon... on mobile. I mean, don’t we all have phones?

  • Solvar.7953Solvar.7953 Member ✭✭✭

    While mobile may be a big market, I'm not going to play an MMO or other RPG on my phone. Hopefully, some companies will always see there is some market for PC/Console based games, and it may just mean that I end up moving to those games if that is the only option.
    For me personally, I occasionally buy gems because I do want to support the game I play. However, I've never spent any money on a cosmetic item, which is what the bulk of the items they sell are. I've spent some money on convenience items (shared inventory slots, extra bank space, permanent tools). But I'm pretty much maxed out/don't need any more of those.
    I imagine cosmetic items are simplest for them to offer - you need the graphic artist to design them, but probably not much more than that. Convenience features may require actual development work.
    At this point, I'm not sure what they could offer in terms of convenience that I would buy.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Openworld/story
    Like always. An update every 3 month for (at max) 2 weeks of content.

    Alot of players ( me included) are just not Motivated to play right now.

    The Balance Patch is a decision point for me.

    LS maps last closer to 1 month.

    Maybe the balance team went to join the dungeons team ....

    Most Lw updates are less then a week ok content for me, while doing everything the patch has to offer.

    It only lasts longer if there are heavy timegates.
    Like this episodes Branded Mass grind and the Dwarven Chest AP.

    By "last" I meant the amount of time they are capable of maintaining a reasonable population not how long it can keep me busy/in that map. That should be a more relevant metric for ANet.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    if that is the only motivation then they should just drop PC games altogether and switch to consoles.

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @wickedkae.4980 said:
    I also have stopped buying stuff from the store. A complete lack of items that add value to my experience is the main issue. Why is it so hard to add AWESOME looking costumes. Seriously, Anet artists, go steal designs from some other mmos. It is clear the art team is too tame.

    Also, the lack of end game content that is not raiding is a huge issue. Why is Anet wasting resources on raids, when you could adding in new systems that keep ALL players interested and moving forward? I do not understand the leadership for this game. There needs to be a serious shake up. It is 2019 and we still don't have an official companion app? Are you kidding me?

    Why do we need a companion app we dont have any companions.

    Continued improvement to the API would have been more useful anyway.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Openworld/story
    Like always. An update every 3 month for (at max) 2 weeks of content.

    Alot of players ( me included) are just not Motivated to play right now.

    The Balance Patch is a decision point for me.

    LS maps last closer to 1 month.

    Maybe the balance team went to join the dungeons team ....

    If you play one hour a week then sure.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Masculus.4817 said:
    Feels like the game is beholden to a model of monetization that does not work. Overall the prices are steep and the value of the product low. Most disappointingly the game itself is going nowhere, it does not improve in any way. Too much legacy and new, pointless content dragging it down.

    One thing that bothers me a bit is how the game runs like kitten and nothing is adressed in terms of performance and/or the ageing aspect of the game. It does not inspire confidence in it's future.

    I agree with mostt points but the pricings, idk i hagent found anet to be too expensive compaired to other companies.

    I especially agree with the optimisation side of things, ppl might like this game but x years down the line they wont be playing it because it runs like kitten.

  • Mea.5491Mea.5491 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The biggest "problem" is that Anet gives away DLCs (living world episodes) for free and allows Gold to Gems exchange. Sure, it's good for us but bad for them. Not many MMO devs are this generous for obvious reasons... Anet is basically throwing money out the window.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You should be because it won't kill it, but it will compete for resources within a game company, or the industry at large. If you still want a variety of high quality PC-based MMO's being released to the market using the latest tech, mobile gaming is a serious threat to that.

    I don't get the idea that there is a concern about moving to games as a service ... the structure of GW2 as a business is fundamentally a service already.

    No, I really shouldn't be because I used to work at a game company and have more knowledge in this area. :smile: If companies want more mobile projects, they'll hire more people to cover more projects. They don't just switch around a fixed number of employees and resources, nor do they want to remain small. They try to expand up to what they think they can handle since bigger companies generally make more. It doesn't mean it'll have 0 effect on hardcore gaming resources, but it's really not something to worry about. There's also the fact that games, their platforms, and means of controlling games will evolve. In years, we could very well be playing hardcore games on mobile devices (or whatever new devices that exist then) just as happily as we're doing on PC now.

    Yes, because that's what is happening right now at Activision/Blizzard, or EA. They are hiring more staff while working on both, PC games and mobile... oh wait, the opposite, they are reducing non developer staff while at the same time shifting focus internally to mobile (to lazy to look up the official statement which stated that a lot of senior Blizzard devs are working on Diablo mobile, I can if you want me to).

    Meanwhile, there is not a day which goes by where some game releases or a developer tries to release which has heavy monetization via lootboxes or rng. Apex Legends just now? Anthem in a couple of days? Division 2 next month? Battlefield 5 last year?

    You might not care, but mobile devices and the monetization model used on them has already had a very altering effect on the PC gaming (and to some extent console) development. The only reason any of the lootbox approach has taken a small break is due to the massive backlash against Star Wars and possible legislation reducing maximum expected return.

    @BlueJin.4127 said:
    As for gaming as a service, this is a concern for offline games. Rather than companies releasing a game and having the customer pay $60 to own it, companies think charging a monthly subscription is better way to continue receiving money. There's also the issue of piracy that's pushing for this. Games as a service would really kill piracy.

    While I do not condone video game piracy, the move to games as a service model is certainly not due to piracy. It's due to continued revenue from a product and the microtransactions which go along with it. There is maybe a couple of games which were affected heavily by piracy (Crysis and it's sequels were some of the heaviest hit) and in general it affects offline games more). But with digital platforms like Steam making more and more of the sales, the issue is definitely not as big as to be the main reason for live service. It's the assured revenue stream.

    @BlueJin.4127 said:
    And for a customer, it's not just the cost of sub based streaming that's a concern. There's lag and general bandwidth limit. ISP's already don't like their customers streaming too much. Having gamers stream constantly (and games will require better image quality than movies) could up cost of internet service, for example.

    Yeah, no. While twitch and other streams might cause some bandwidth demand, the vast majority goes to video streaming and movies. Aside from maybe 1 time yearly seasonal events like League finals or such, games aren't even on the radar right now.

    From October 2018:
    http://fortune.com/2018/10/02/netflix-consumes-15-percent-of-global-internet-bandwidth/

    Youtube and Netflix both make up around 50% of the global bandwidth usage in the US, probably higher now since the article is from 2014 and Netflix has had a lot of growth since then, plus Amazon Prime and Youtube also expanded: https://www.forbes.com/sites/quickerbettertech/2014/11/24/netflix-and-youtube-now-consume-50-of-the-internet-as-the-argument-for-net-neutrality-weakens/#280ffb2f36e6)

    EDIT: now I'm not the bleak the world is doomed kind of guy, but to dismiss mobile development as a serious contender for resources is very wishful thinking I believe.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    This is what I took away too. Anet needs to make a mobile game if they want to survive.

    ~snip~

    Not true, as long as income exceeds expenses then the company survives...or perhaps it gets to the point that NCSoft no longer wants ArenaNet and puts them on the block(offers the company for sale), or...there are numerous other possible outcomes that could result. Only if the decline in revenue continues and they start making less money than they're spending will there be a problem.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    This is what I took away too. Anet needs to make a mobile game if they want to survive.

    ~snip~

    Not true, as long as income exceeds expenses then the company survives...

    Its human nature to want more and go for more, the mobile market could make them crazy amount of money far beyond their expenses.

    I mean look at the reccent layoffs in acti-blizzard. The ceo is boasting record sales but the company laidoff 800 ppl because they didnt "meet their potential" of profit.

    Apparently getting to keep your job in the game's industry goes beyond just exceeding expenses.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    Two things to consider:

    1) This is NCSoft's report, not Anets. NCSoft own a number of studios (including Anet) and therefore several games but Anet only have Guild Wars 2. The only other game they've ever made is Guild Wars 1. So making a mobile game would be a huge shift for them, requiring not just new technical skills but a new way of thinking about design and monetisation. (And importantly Anet operate largely independently of NCSoft, I'm not sure of the exact involvement but I know Anet have said NCSoft don't make any decisions about what goes on in GW2 so they certainly couldn't order the studio to start developing a new game.)

    2) Making a profitable mobile game is not remotely as easy as it might seem. Remember when World of Warcraft was released and suddenly everyone was jumping on the band wagon -trying to throw together an MMO to cash in on the "next big thing" and make the same kind of money? How many of those games even broke even? How many are still around? Mobile games are the same with 1000 times as much competition. The market as a whole makes a lot of money, but the vast majority of that goes to a tiny, tiny number of games, and then often for just a short time. The vast majority will never make any profit, and may even lose their developers money, even if they're good quality games.

    Here's a couple of articles on it:
    This one reports that the median lifetime revenue for developers is $3,000: https://smallbusiness.chron.com/average-revenue-iphone-game-60261.html
    And this one explains why (short version: you have to spend vast amounts on marketing and hope it pays off): https://venturebeat.com/2017/09/24/your-chances-of-making-a-successful-mobile-app-are-almost-nil/

    This is probably why NCSoft groups all their mobile games together. On their own the vast majority of games will probably make so little profit it's not even worth mentioning, but when you add them all together it becomes a profitable sector.

    "You can run like a river, Till you end up in the sea,
    And you run till night is black, And keep on going in your dreams,
    And you know all the long while, It's the journey that you seek,
    It's the miles of moving forward, With the wind beneath your wings."

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @BlueJin.4127 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    I have never been, nor will I ever worry that mobile gaming will kill hardcore gaming. It's just not gonna happen. Mobile games and hardcore games are not mutually exclusive, just like there are different sports, different smartphones, different entertainment, etc. If games become 10 times more popular than movies, for example, movies will not die. Also, multiplatform gaming companies think of mobile as extra projects (just like how they make PC AND console games), not replacements. That's because they know mobile games and hardcore games cater to different crowds and they'll want to make more money covering all audiences. And since there are limited audiences for each platform, making 10 mobile games isn't necessary a better decision than making less games covering multioke platforms.

    What I am concerned about, is move to streaming and games as a service. These are things many game companies actively want to switch.

    In any case, according to the report, mobile games make up 53% of sales. According to wiki, there are currently 8 PC games (including GW1 from 2005 and Aion from 2009) and 6 mobile games. There are currently 7 titles in development, covering PC, mobile, and consoles.

    You should be because it won't kill it, but it will compete for resources within a game company, or the industry at large. If you still want a variety of high quality PC-based MMO's being released to the market using the latest tech, mobile gaming is a serious threat to that.

    I don't get the idea that there is a concern about moving to games as a service ... the structure of GW2 as a business is fundamentally a service already.

    Mobile games are just a craze, specially if you want at least some complexity.

    Have you tried to play League of legends and Lineage on mobile? It sucks and most people have already left it.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    they only make so much profit because they use unethical / predatory monetization strategies (even worse than the usual asia MMO).

    Sure ... but that doesn't stop them from making that money or any other company from capitalizing on it. The bottomline is that the threat to PC MMO's aren't other PC MMO's ... it's mobile platform.

    Yes thats true, but thats not the fault of the mmo. The blame can be squarely laid at the feet of the people playing. Society does not want to sit at a pc for hours anymore to play a game. People like to be on the go or have short bursts of gaming on their phones. PCs are dying altogether as phones and tablets become stronger and you can take them anywhere. When i was a kid the gamers used a pc , nowdays the phone is the outlet of choice to play on, mobile gaming is accelerating faster than any other form. and game companies have taken note. If you want to carry on into the future you must evolve.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Edit:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n/

    GW2 would benefit more from revamping the game engine itself than upgrading the DX version it utilizes.

  • Mikali.9651Mikali.9651 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me.

    they only make so much profit because they use unethical / predatory monetization strategies (even worse than the usual asia MMO).

    Sure ... but that doesn't stop them from making that money or any other company from capitalizing on it. The bottomline is that the threat to PC MMO's aren't other PC MMO's ... it's mobile platform.

    Yes thats true, but thats not the fault of the mmo. The blame can be squarely laid at the feet of the people playing. Society does not want to sit at a pc for hours anymore to play a game. People like to be on the go or have short bursts of gaming on their phones. PCs are dying altogether as phones and tablets become stronger and you can take them anywhere. When i was a kid the gamers used a pc , nowdays the phone is the outlet of choice to play on, mobile gaming is accelerating faster than any other form. and game companies have taken note. If you want to carry on into the future you must evolve.

    absolutely not true. Both exist and people use both. Not one or another. Both. No one replaced anything with another. Mobile games just have it easier selling things, in my personal case I spent more on Duel Links than on Guild Wars 2 this year. When I am at home and have free time I play GW2, when I am doing a minor activity which doesn't really take much attention, I "play" Duel Links, mostly just using autoplay function to grind it a bit faster.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded!

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato.

    Not all games are designed the same.

    Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n/

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If the LW5's big feature is Mount levels of amazing and not tied to an expansion, imagine the numbers. Players just buying things they like in the gem store, because the game provides something immediately available, hours of fun, and has no initial price tag. Its a significant factor in any game that GW2 has yet to really capitalize on.

    Especially if the story content is structured in a way that you don't need 6 years of previous content to wrap your head around.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato.

    Not all games are designed the same.

    Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n/

    You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Mea.5491 said:
    The biggest "problem" is that Anet gives away DLCs (living world episodes) for free and allows Gold to Gems exchange. Sure, it's good for us but bad for them. Not many MMO devs are this generous for obvious reasons... Anet is basically throwing money out the window.

    Meanwhile other MMO devs do proper bundles with their items (offering actual discounts), offer discounts if you buy their virtual currencies in bulk, offer coupons to get their currencies at a discount (sometimes big discount). Others don't use loot boxes at all. Another emerging trend is to offer most items for both cash and in-game currencies without an exchange taking place to needlessly inflate the prices. Fixed price in gold, fixed price in gems for all items. Now not every other MMO dev does all that at once, but it's a list of things that other developers are doing, that Anet does not, and could certainly help with the game.

    When was the last time Anet offered a discount for GEMS? Oh wait they've never done a single discount. The cash-to-gems ratio has been set and never changed since release, the lifeline of the game has never had any kind of update, sale or change since release... Individual item discounts don't really count, you must be interested in the given items for it to be worth it, but a sale on ACTUAL gems? Yes please.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded!

    Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory.

  • BlueJin.4127BlueJin.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Snip

    And in a few months, these companies will try to expand, again.

    1) When the public reads one article that a company is downsizing or their next few projects have more mobile games, they think this is some major change and panic. What's actually going on is that nothing has changed, long term. :smile: Without the public knowing, companies grow and downsize repeatedly. Trust me, this is not the first time Activision has made "news worthy" shuffling. It's just that the public never hears about them. Companies also shift projects and resources constantly, majority of which the public never hears about. One public info that a company is shifting resources or has started making mobile games is nothing new and nothing of concern. It's just that the public and the media pretty much never hears about these constant and completely normal internal processes, so when they do hear about "one change" (that is actually not a change and part of the constant on-going process), they take it out of context and blow it up as if something major is happening.

    Again, I'm not saying there are 0 effects on hardcore gaming. But it's really not as scary as the general public, who doesn't know the whole story, think. Also, I think Danikat's post above explains other aspects well about why people shouldn't be worried about mobile having a huge effect on hardcore gaming (though, what a person considers to be enough of an impact will vary).

    2) DLC’s and lootboxes have nothing to do with mobile games. People who don’t work in the game industry may think mobile gaming is the cause of this, but these things were stuff many game companies were working on internally or already had out and were expanding upon, before mobile gaming even became a thing. There can be no mobile gaming right now, and we'd still have heavy monetization. Microsoft and Xbox Live were actually the biggest catalyst of the current trend of heavy monetization, IIRC. That is not to say that we wouldn't see heavy monetization if not for Microsoft. Again, there are a lot of things that game companies work on internally, that the public never hears about.

    3) I didn’t say piracy is the only reason for wanting gaming as a service. I mention money in the very post you’re quoting. And yes, piracy IS one of the many reasons.

    4) Yes, video streaming uses more bandwidth right now. I’m talking about the future, if games become very reliant on streaming. And I'm not talking about which entertainment may get the biggest pie. I'm talking about how ISP's will try to handle such a huge increase in traffic if games in the future become very reliant on streaming, on top of what we already stream, and how this may negatively impact gamers.

    EDIT - Again, sorry about constant edits. I'm done, for real this time. :smile:

    ^^

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded!

    Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory.

    The reason being is people dont optimize dx12, i made the same mistake at first and hated it. DX12 comes out of the box with all the bells and whistles switched on, its up to the user to adjust the settings but few know and do that. Once done DX12 is amazing. Let me put it this way, a pc that has less cores and no multi/hyperthreading will play GW2 better than a pc with win 10 with many cores and threads. This game plays on a single core overworking it and getting it hot. DX9 will not allow multi core or threading.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded!

    Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory.

    DX12 puts the effort on the developers instead of the driver (until DX11 the driver does a lot of work for the devs) since like vulcan it is a low level API. So if it runs worse than DX11 it is entirely the developers fault for being bad.
    But it can bring considerable performance boosts over dx9 as shown by the wrapper d912pxy which isn't even native dx12. A native dx12 implementation would be even more powerful if done right.
    And DX12 being W10 only is no issue since the older versions are outdated and W7/8 were offered free upgrades to W10.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded!

    Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory.

    The reason being is people dont optimize dx12, i made the same mistake at first and hated it. DX12 comes out of the box with all the bells and whistles switched on, its up to the user to adjust the settings but few know and do that. Once done DX12 is amazing.

    Talking about all settings activated for both dx11 and dx12. dx11 performance always beats dx12, it has been a failure for gaming so far. The savior of gaming is Vulkan, that offers ACTUAL performance boosts (very large boosts if I may add) compared to OpenGL, which is what makes dx12 so puzzling. It should have the same performance gains but in real games, it simply doesn't. There is a reason why all youtube channels benchmark the games on their dx11 version and even state to stay away of the dx12 because it's kitten. I guess they don't know what to switch off either.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded!

    Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory.

    DX12 puts the effort on the developers instead of the driver since like vulcan it is a low level API. So if it runs worse than DX11 it is entirely the developers fault for being bad.

    Exactly why I said in theory (and benchmarks) dx12 wins over dx11, but in real game situations it almost always loses (badly if I may add), there is no hidden setting to make dx12 better than dx11, it's just not implemented properly by any game out there. Only Vulkan does what's advertised: giving performance boosts in real games.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded!

    Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory.

    DX12 puts the effort on the developers instead of the driver since like vulcan it is a low level API. So if it runs worse than DX11 it is entirely the developers fault for being bad.

    Exactly why I said in theory (and benchmarks) dx12 wins over dx11, but in real game situations it almost always loses (badly if I may add), there is no hidden setting to make dx12 better than dx11, it's just not implemented properly by any game out there. Only Vulkan does what's advertised: giving performance boosts in real games.

    Sadly the nature of devs taking the easy path. Programming a good dx12 engine takes a lot more expertise than programming a dx11 or lower engine. So if it runs bad, blame the devs.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded!

    Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory.

    The reason being is people dont optimize dx12, i made the same mistake at first and hated it. DX12 comes out of the box with all the bells and whistles switched on, its up to the user to adjust the settings but few know and do that. Once done DX12 is amazing.

    Talking about all settings activated for both dx11 and dx12. dx11 performance always beats dx12, it has been a failure for gaming so far. The savior of gaming is Vulkan, that offers ACTUAL performance boosts (very large boosts if I may add) compared to OpenGL, which is what makes dx12 so puzzling. It should have the same performance gains but in real games, it simply doesn't. There is a reason why all youtube channels benchmark the games on their dx11 version and even state to stay away of the dx12 because it's kitten. I guess they don't know what to switch off either.

    Few game companies are going to use vulkan, when dx is the mainstay

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded!

    Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory.

    DX12 puts the effort on the developers instead of the driver since like vulcan it is a low level API. So if it runs worse than DX11 it is entirely the developers fault for being bad.

    Exactly why I said in theory (and benchmarks) dx12 wins over dx11, but in real game situations it almost always loses (badly if I may add), there is no hidden setting to make dx12 better than dx11, it's just not implemented properly by any game out there. Only Vulkan does what's advertised: giving performance boosts in real games.

    Sadly the nature of devs taking the easy path. Programming a good dx12 engine takes a lot more expertise than programming a dx11 or lower engine. So if it runs bad, blame the devs.

    To go back to the argument of GW2 going to DirectX 12, why should they bother? Are the Arenanet engine devs so much better than everyone else that will take advantage of what DX12 offers? I doubt it, so the most sensible solutions would be to update the engine for DX11 instead. The performance gains should be better, trusted, and apply to a higher percentage of the playerbase.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato.

    Not all games are designed the same.

    Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n/

    You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9

    The one who posted in the thread I linked is a professional who was well involved in the game’s development. Don’t confuse professionals with marketing folks.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded!

    Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory.

    DX12 puts the effort on the developers instead of the driver since like vulcan it is a low level API. So if it runs worse than DX11 it is entirely the developers fault for being bad.

    Exactly why I said in theory (and benchmarks) dx12 wins over dx11, but in real game situations it almost always loses (badly if I may add), there is no hidden setting to make dx12 better than dx11, it's just not implemented properly by any game out there. Only Vulkan does what's advertised: giving performance boosts in real games.

    Well a major fact is dx12 is win 10 only. So for playable purpose dx11 would be the standard since people play this game on a potato, but even 11 would be an improvement over 9. Sadly i realize they wont ever change that this game will go to the end on dx9. And thats horrible for newer pcs.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato.

    Not all games are designed the same.

    Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n/

    You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9

    The one who posted in the thread I linked is a professional who was well involved in the game’s development. Don’t confuse professionals with marketing folks.

    To post a part of the dev's post for anyone that doesn't want to read the link:

    Which brings us to GW2. GW2 does a lot of processing, and much of it is done on the main thread. That is also where its bottleneck tends to be: The main thread. There are conscious efforts in moving things off the main thread and onto other threads (every now and then a patch goes out that does just this), but due to how multi-threading works it's a non-trivial thing that take a lot of effort to do. In a perfect world, we could say "Hey main thread, give the other threads some stuff to do if you're too busy", but sadly this is not that world.

    Meaning, the problem in GW2 is the main thread and the main thread has nothing to do with the version of DirectX. DirectX affects the Render thread, which isn't the problem.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato.

    Not all games are designed the same.

    Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n/

    You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9

    The one who posted in the thread I linked is a professional who was well involved in the game’s development. Don’t confuse professionals with marketing folks.

    To post a part of the dev's post for anyone that doesn't want to read the link:

    Which brings us to GW2. GW2 does a lot of processing, and much of it is done on the main thread. That is also where its bottleneck tends to be: The main thread. There are conscious efforts in moving things off the main thread and onto other threads (every now and then a patch goes out that does just this), but due to how multi-threading works it's a non-trivial thing that take a lot of effort to do. In a perfect world, we could say "Hey main thread, give the other threads some stuff to do if you're too busy", but sadly this is not that world.

    Meaning, the problem in GW2 is the main thread and the main thread has nothing to do with the version of DirectX. DirectX affects the Render thread, which isn't the problem.

    You know why they run dx9? because at the time many cheap pcs could run the game. Thats not the case anymore and win xp vista and 8 are memories, win 7 will go the way of the dodo next year. So all that will be left are people on win 10 or holdouts risking everything to use a version thats obsolete. Then they will upgrade their engine, because win 10 kittens all over it. That or they will lose players because the performance of the game will suck. 9 has been obsolete for a looong time , and its the worst dx with no multi core/thread support.

    This was their stance back in 2012 when dx9 was still standard , we have come a long way since then

    https://www.facebook.com/GuildWars2/photos/for-those-of-you-who-have-been-asking-about-dx11-support-for-guild-wars-2-our-go/10151048222709209/

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato.

    Not all games are designed the same.

    Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n/

    You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9

    Meanwhile a random nobody can simulate the game running on dx12 or w/e and provide more meaningful performance improvements than any of the updates gw2 has done to performance over the years.

    But naaah, not worth investing in that.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tiviana.2650 said:
    The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx.

    Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat.

    They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting.

    I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc.

    I think you misunderstand what DX actually does.

    Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato.

    Not all games are designed the same.

    Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n/

    You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9

    The one who posted in the thread I linked is a professional who was well involved in the game’s development. Don’t confuse professionals with marketing folks.

    To post a part of the dev's post for anyone that doesn't want to read the link:

    Which brings us to GW2. GW2 does a lot of processing, and much of it is done on the main thread. That is also where its bottleneck tends to be: The main thread. There are conscious efforts in moving things off the main thread and onto other threads (every now and then a patch goes out that does just this), but due to how multi-threading works it's a non-trivial thing that take a lot of effort to do. In a perfect world, we could say "Hey main thread, give the other threads some stuff to do if you're too busy", but sadly this is not that world.

    Meaning, the problem in GW2 is the main thread and the main thread has nothing to do with the version of DirectX. DirectX affects the Render thread, which isn't the problem.

    You know why they run dx9? because at the time many cheap pcs could run the game. Thats not the case anymore and win xp vista and 8 are memories, win 7 will go the way of the dodo next year. So all that will be left are people on win 10 or holdouts risking everything to use a version thats obsolete. Then they will upgrade their engine, because win 10 kittens all over it. That or they will lose players because the performance of the game will suck. 9 has been obsolete for a looong time , and its the worst dx with no multi core/thread support.

    This was their stance back in 2012 when dx9 was still standard , we have come a long way since then

    https://www.facebook.com/GuildWars2/photos/for-those-of-you-who-have-been-asking-about-dx11-support-for-guild-wars-2-our-go/10151048222709209/

    That post of theirs I linked was made 3 years ago which is after Windows 10 and DX12 were available.

    You overestimate how bad the game’s performance actually is and how willing players are to abandon the game because of it.

2
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