If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side?

Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

NOTE: This thread is meant for pure fun and speculation. I wanted it under the lore sub forums because I want the answers to actually be based on lore and what would be likely.

So, let's imagine Tyria, x years from now. Let's imagine the charr have sorted out their ghost problem, and possibly found a Khan-Ur to unite them. Let's say the truce falls apart due to one reason or another, which would result in another open war versus humans.

How would each faction react to this? Would other races go support the charr or the humans, assuming their earlier grievances with either race? Who would stay neutral? What would be the outcome?

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Comments

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sylvari would not join the fight, Charr and Human would try to persuade Asura, but I think it would lead to dividing Asura into two organizations, Norn would join the race they think is strongest, so they would absolutely fight with Charr on the battlefield.

    Skritt would join Charr and Norn - the closest allies and natural because of the region - notice the skritt are not really liked in Maguuma and Kryta.

    Tengu would stay independent.

    Quaggan and Kodan would also join the Northers (Charr, Norn Skritt, Quaggan and Kodan).

    Human would be left on their own, asking two hardest Races that will not want to join the fight - Sylvari and Tengu, wont be successful, so they will try to get allies from the Mists - searching for Gods' power and will use the most advanced mesmer magic.

    Seek, and you shall find.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Sylvari would not join the fight, Charr and Human would try to persuade Asura, but I think it would lead to dividing Asura into two organizations, Norn would join the race they think is strongest, so they would absolutely fight with Charr on the battlefield.

    Skritt would join Charr and Norn - the closest allies and natural because of the region - notice the skritt are not really liked in Maguuma and Kryta.

    Tengu would stay independent.

    Quaggan and Kodan would also join the Northers (Charr, Norn Skritt, Quaggan and Kodan).

    Human would be left on their own, asking two hardest Races that will not want to join the fight - Sylvari and Tengu, wont be successful, so they will try to get allies from the Mists - searching for Gods' power and will use the most advanced mesmer magic.

    Would the kodan really join the charr, though? I thought they dislike the charrs.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019

    They would join the Norn. Kodan dont really have any relationship with races different than Norn and Quaggan, they would fight for their own homes too, when the army of Human approaches Ascalon they will have to walk through the Shiverpeaks first, and Norn as I said will join the strongest. Most common sense of fight, rather than playing with some weird mesmer tricks.

    Seek, and you shall find.

  • Some Sylvari might join either side just for curiosity. Others are likely against war and try to stop it. Asuras just dont care, might sell weapons to who pays more. Norns take both side where there is good fight. Centaurs most likely will join charr or they have enough and stay neutral. Tengus are neutral. You might see some skritt on battlefield looting dead bodies for shiny. Other lesser races dont care. Largos might show up to kill whoever they see worth killing.

  • Humans would fight a defensive war, they dont have resources nor the tech to make assault again the charr, their only bridge should be ebonhawk as have been seem all the time but this time charr have more advanced warmachines and we havent see any tech from the kingdom of kryta.

    If human in central tyria have any chance of win is with the help from the other human countrys but at the moment of the hystory elona is out of play and cantha closed their borders.

    Asura will sell weapons and (the inquest) take advantage of the conflict to further their onterest.

    Sylvaris will try negotiate a truce and remain neutral.

    Norm will do what a norm do: forge his legend, be it in the battlefield or in some other way.

    The interesting thing is what will happen with the orders of tyria:

    The Vigil will try the enforce the truce with the sylvari and create safe zones for the refugees of war.

    The priory will ignore the whole problem until someone start disrupt their excavation trying to found some lost superweapon

    The order of whisper will split in sub factions each one supporting one faction or other but i thing the bigger part will support the humans.

    The wild card will be how the elder dragon problem is solved

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019

    I doubt such a war would really get anywhere. Even if the charr capture Ebonhawke, there is a large obstacle between Ascalon and Kryta. Without any safe passage over the Shiverpeaks the war would just stalemate. For now the Legions are better off building their empire eastward. There's no formidable foes to our knowledge and they can grab all the resources on the way. The far shiverpeaks are still blocked by Jormag, so until that thaws, charr and humans could just send angry diplomatic notes.
    (So the next war between the charr and the humans would have to be a cold war, maybe fought over proxies.)
    Plus Smodur is trying to turn Ebonhawke into an ally of the Iron Legion, which may just work, as they'll be economically far closer to their neighbour than Kryta. Plus they're already killing ogres together. What better bonding exercise is there over ogre campaigns?

    That being said, the only way the high legions will act in that manner is if they finally unite under a new Khan-Ur. It might happen, but until then the charr are just as likely to fall to infighting as declaring war on outsiders. And they're already fighting ghosts, branded, renegades, separatists, ogres, harpies, dredge and Flame Legion.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The Norn as a whole would not get involved and absolutely the Kodan would not either. GW1 showed that Norns are individualistic and whilst individuals would fight for glory and legend, they would not as a race take one side.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    Various thoughts:

    • At this point, given the relatively integrated relationships between the Charr in Ascalon and the other races, any war between Humans and Charr would almost certainly have to start with Charr leaders and forces not currently present in the GW2 game world. The barbarian horde out of the East, as it were.

    • Remember that part of how the Asura waypoint and gate networks are even allowed to exist, is their guaranteed neutrality and non-military use. Therefore if full scale war broke out between Humans and Charr, the Asura would likely shut down the gate and waypoint networks as a tool to help end the conflict, forcing anyone fighting to march the old fashioned way.

    • Which means if the Charr want to get to Kryta from Ascalon, they'll have to march west through the Shiverpeaks, which no doubt every race that lives there will defend their various territories. That includes the Norn, Dredge "fighting the oppressors", Grawl, Quaggans, Kodan et al. And I would expect an aggressive human response coming to the Shiverpeaks as well, both to keep the Charr out of Kryta if at all possible, and remembering the lessons of GW1 that hunkering down behind walls doesn't work. Bottom line, controlling the passes through the Shiverpeaks will likely be the first major strategic goal for either side, and the Norn would likely side with the Humans in that event.

    • With the Shiverpeaks being a major front and bottleneck to strategic movement, the Charr could possibly try to take a southern route via the Maguuma Jungle maps and coastal ocean. That would bring them into immediate conflict with the Asura and Sylvari, and even the Tengu if they're not careful. The Asura can meet the Charr war machine head on with their own technology, the Sylvari will fight fanatically to defend the Pale Tree, the Tengu have their own heavily fortified turf, and the Maguuma terrain is highly entangling and favors the defenders. And all the while, the Charr fleets trying to maneuver on the coast would likely be harassed from the south by Elonian corsairs supporting Kryta. Collectively, that southern route is a can of worms (jungle wurms) that even the Charr shouldn't want to open.

    • Speaking of Elonian corsairs, the other human nations and their closer allies (like the Free Awakened) will almost certainly jump in with Kryta, as much as they are able. Lion's Arch would probably try to mediate until the Charr were at their door, in which case the gloves come off and Lion's Arch joins the human side.

    • Another significant obstacle, more to the Charr than the humans, is the broader integration of the races across Tyria. It's safe to assume that the majority of Charr in the current game world outside Ascalon, like those in the Lionguard for example, are gladiums with little loyalty to the High Legions. Like Rox, they have found other homes and causes for which to fight. So while certainly there could be some "enemy within" scenarios, it's also highly likely that Charr would end up fighting Charr, which would spread some undermining morale and loyalty issues back through the High Legions. Especially since the Charr today, and particularly the Charr in Ascalon, ain't what they used to be in GW1; they still talk big, but their interactions with the other races have softened them more than they like to admit.

    • So again, for this war to happen at all, I think it almost certainly would have to start with the High Legions off the present game map. The Charr as we presently know them in Ascalon simply aren't up to it anymore. It most likely would end up with the High Legions fighting everybody in their path, not just the humans. And it likely would end very badly for the Charr.

    EDIT: See next post...

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    Thinking further on my previous post and the potential consequences: I think it likely that if the High Legions decided to start another war against the humans and invade the game world via Ascalon, it would eventually lead to another civil war among the Charr.

    The way I see it, based on the observed behavior of Charr NPCs in game, there are presently three major factions evolving in Charr culture:

    • The "barbarian" High Legions off the game map. Those still closest to the Charr culture of GW1.
    • The "civilized" Charr -- who have been "tamed" by their interactions and relationships with the other races, and would probably side with them if the High Legions start another war. Lionguard members, Pact members, Olmakhan, and so forth. Evon and Rox definitely fall into this category, and I think Almorra probably does as well.
    • And between them, the "Ascalonian" or "Black Citadel" Charr. Which is the main body of Charr presently in game, and already torn between the two sides. Rytlock falls into this category, and probably would end up joining the "civilized" faction before too long.

    I think these social divisions within the Charr would boil to the surface very quickly in the event of another war, especially once the inevitable setbacks start happening at the front.

  • @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Thinking further on my previous post and the potential consequences: I think it likely that if the High Legions decided to start another war against the humans and invade the game world via Ascalon, it would eventually lead to another civil war among the Charr.

    The way I see it, based on the observed behavior of Charr NPCs in game, there are presently three major factions evolving in Charr culture:

    • The "barbarian" High Legions off the game map. Those still closest to the Charr culture of GW1.
    • The "civilized" Charr -- who have been "tamed" by their interactions and relationships with the other races, and would probably side with them if the High Legions start another war. Lionguard members, Pact members, Olmakhan, and so forth. Evon and Rox definitely fall into this category, and I think Almorra probably does as well.
    • And between them, the "Ascalonian" or "Black Citadel" Charr. Which is the main body of Charr presently in game, and already torn between the two sides. Rytlock falls into this category, and probably would end up joining the "civilized" faction before too long.

    I think these social divisions within the Charr would boil to the surface very quickly in the event of another war, especially once the inevitable setbacks start happening at the front.

    And that would be a kittening interesting base for a fleshed out expansion that is NOT about the Elder Dragons.

    Doug Warobaz - Norn To Be Alive [NtbA]

  • @Arden.7480 said:
    Sylvari would not join the fight, Charr and Human would try to persuade Asura, but I think it would lead to dividing Asura into two organizations, Norn would join the race they think is strongest, so they would absolutely fight with Charr on the battlefield.

    Skritt would join Charr and Norn - the closest allies and natural because of the region - notice the skritt are not really liked in Maguuma and Kryta.

    Tengu would stay independent.

    Quaggan and Kodan would also join the Northers (Charr, Norn Skritt, Quaggan and Kodan).

    Human would be left on their own, asking two hardest Races that will not want to join the fight - Sylvari and Tengu, wont be successful, so they will try to get allies from the Mists - searching for Gods' power and will use the most advanced mesmer magic.

    I disagree with almost everything.

    Quaggan dont fight. So they will be neutral.
    Kodan will be neutral, because of their culture does not allow that kind of interference.
    Norn would join the side that promises them the most glory. Joining the perceived stronger side is exactly the opposite of glory. So if they would join in, which is doubtfull, they would join the humans.
    Asura will evaluate that if the humans fall, they will be next. So since they dont want to be eaten by hungry charr, they join the human side.
    Sylvari will try to stay neutral. Until some remember that all asura deserve to die. Then things will become very ugly very quickly.
    Tengu will be neutral. See Kodan.
    Ogre will be neutral, they just fight everybody.
    Skritt just do not care.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Sylvari would not join the fight, Charr and Human would try to persuade Asura, but I think it would lead to dividing Asura into two organizations, Norn would join the race they think is strongest, so they would absolutely fight with Charr on the battlefield.

    Skritt would join Charr and Norn - the closest allies and natural because of the region - notice the skritt are not really liked in Maguuma and Kryta.

    Tengu would stay independent.

    Quaggan and Kodan would also join the Northers (Charr, Norn Skritt, Quaggan and Kodan).

    Human would be left on their own, asking two hardest Races that will not want to join the fight - Sylvari and Tengu, wont be successful, so they will try to get allies from the Mists - searching for Gods' power and will use the most advanced mesmer magic.

    I disagree with almost everything.

    Quaggan dont fight. So they will be neutral.
    Kodan will be neutral, because of their culture does not allow that kind of interference.
    Norn would join the side that promises them the most glory. Joining the perceived stronger side is exactly the opposite of glory. So if they would join in, which is doubtfull, they would join the humans.
    Asura will evaluate that if the humans fall, they will be next. So since they dont want to be eaten by hungry charr, they join the human side.
    Sylvari will try to stay neutral. Until some remember that all asura deserve to die. Then things will become very ugly very quickly.
    Tengu will be neutral. See Kodan.
    Ogre will be neutral, they just fight everybody.
    Skritt just do not care.

    So... Basically everybody will be neutral. And you disagree with a meaningless theory that is simply for fun. Ehh there are many factors I avoided because its pointless to speculate about it, its like speculating if Jennah was hatched from an egg - just for fun.

    Seek, and you shall find.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    To the people who say Kodan will not interfere, I'd like to point out that their culture is about maintaining balance, not about being pacifistic. They are not.

  • @Cerioth.7062 said:
    To the people who say Kodan will not interfere, I'd like to point out that their culture is about maintaining balance, not about being pacifistic. They are not.

    Correct, however, furthering a conflict is not maintaining balance, it's furthering imbalance at best. That's why I suggest that if the kodan get involved (they do have their own issues after all, from icebrood to dredge), then they'd be most likely to be attempting mediation between the two sides to regain peace. The only reason I'd see them joining the war would be in becoming prejudice that one side or the other is creating imbalance (neither side does, technically, as while the charr are destructive they do help regrow the land afterwards; meanwhile humans aren't as destructive, but do work to help restore broken land and wildlife).

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    Not anymore, and even if they were that's still not an excuse to make war on them.

  • Syronus.7605Syronus.7605 Member ✭✭
    edited February 26, 2019

    I'm surprised no one has mentioned this wiki page yet. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World It does show some details on how the races view one another.

    That being said the Charr would surely and easily defeat Ebonhawke and Kryta but should the other races feel the Charr becoming too dominant they could very well intervene. The Charr are stronger than ever without the Flame legion, and humanity has lost two kingdoms. Even in the previous war they made it all the way to Orr so what is to stop them wiping humanity out this time? The other races would have to intervene or they would be next in line, the Charr are a military race after all. They can't exist in peace with the rest of Tyria unless a bigger fish comes out to play.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    You see, that's the thing. It's not just about races anymore in Tyria, but factional alignments and alliances. The races have become so intertwined by socializing, trade, and so forth, that you can't really take on one race by itself anymore. As I described above, an invasion by the High Legions through Ascalon targeting Kryta would end up fighting pretty much EVERYBODY, just by simple geography and logical relations.

    Oh yeah, and something I overlooked earlier in the analysis of a Charr invasion attempt through the Shiverpeaks: two of the three Pact Orders have their main bases in the Shiverpeaks. If you think the Priory isn't going to fight for its precious records and artifacts, or Almorra and the Vigil will roll over for the High Legions just because some tin hat from the Charr Homelands said so, both you and the High Legions are in for a big surprise. When the High Legions try to give Almorra orders just because she's a Charr, or give the Vigil some kind of "join, get out of the way, or die" kind of speech, I can imagine Almorra laughing right before the Vigil guns open up in their faces. "We're used to fighting forces of nature. Who the skritt do you think YOU are?"

    Bottom line: this ain't the world of GW1, where the humans were the Charr's only target and the human kingdoms didn't work together. There are many other races and factions in the world now; races and factions that have learned the power of working together, including the humans. And of THAT, the High Legions should best be wary.

  • Biff.5312Biff.5312 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Seems more logical to me that the Charr would solicit the aid of centaurs. And since the rest of the playable races would have no particular reason to fall out with humans they'd probably stay on-side, which might lead the charr to looking to jotun, ogres, and the exiting enemies of each faction.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    @Biff.5312 said:
    Seems more logical to me that the Charr would solicit the aid of centaurs. And since the rest of the playable races would have no particular reason to fall out with humans they'd probably stay on-side, which might lead the charr to looking to jotun, ogres, and the exiting enemies of each faction.

    Which is a big problem for the Charr, because the Charr at large haven't really made allies with anybody. It's always been the Charr against the world, and even these days, the average Ascalonian Charr only puts up with the other races out of necessity. There's just some they dislike less than others. So while I have no doubt the other races would come to the humans' aid if requested; I can't imagine anyone readily siding with the Charr in the event of a major war.

    Centaurs? Maybe. Human "enemy of my enemy" and all that. But that would probably require the Charr giving up conquered territory to the Centaurs, and we know what the Charr would think of that. Assuming the Centaurs would even go for it, since they pretty much hate EVERYBODY.

    The Jotun are only found in the Shiverpeaks, are even more primitive now than the Grawl (which is saying a lot) and there aren't enough of them left to make a major contribution. Plus again, they're hostile to just about everyone.

    The Dredge are numerous, adept with both magic and technology, and highly motivated. Unfortunately, it's a rare Dredge that trusts outsiders, and the Molten Alliance affair has probably particularly soured them on the Charr. The group we deal with in LS4 Ep 5 is only dealing with us out of necessity for survival. So I can't see an alliance coming easily from the Dredge either.

    The Ogres are in direct conflict with the Charr in Ascalon. If the Charr could make any ogre allies, it would likely be only on a tribe by tribe basis. Ditto for the Grawl.

    Whoever offers the Skritt the most shinies will have them on their side. But again, that would probably go scratch by scratch, so it's not unthinkable for both sides to have Skritt mercs on their side. Assuming the Charr would even lower themselves to hiring the Skritt; remember, the Charr use "Skritt" as a curse word.

    I can't imagine the Charr trusting the Nightmare Court, Inquest, Sons of Svanir, or other such villainous or dragon minion groups. And they're kitten sure not going to trust the Flame Legion. As Dr. Smith famously said, evil knows evil. Also, several such groups, particularly the first two I mentioned, have suffered heavy losses and may not be able to play much role beyond advisers or insider threats anyway.

    Human traitors are certainly possible, but not easy to come by in a racially motivated war. Think of Baltar in BSG. White Mantle survivors or Separatists as traitorous human insiders? Or maybe human bandits? Possibly. But the Charr had hate-hate relationships with the former, and the latter probably wouldn't be trusted beyond firing range.

    So, yeah. The humans have a ready coalition of other races and factions who would probably help them. The Charr...well, they have themselves.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    Lets be real here, humans are aliens on Tyria.

    Yes, but humans have been in Tyria for so long that their extra-Tyrian origin is all but forgotten. The humans in Tyria now are certainly born native, even if their species originally wasn't. Think of a family immigrating to America. The original ancestors coming in through Ellis Island may have been German, Irish, or whatever nationality. But with each passing generation, the descendants have less connection to the Old Country and think more of themselves as Americans. Humans in Tyria are the same way; their ancestors were from somewhere else, but humans in Tyria now are native; thousands of years and however many generations have made them so.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Lets be real here, humans are aliens on Tyria.

    Yes, but humans have been in Tyria for so long that their extra-Tyrian origin is all but forgotten. The humans in Tyria now are certainly born native, even if their species originally wasn't. Think of a family immigrating to America. The original ancestors coming in through Ellis Island may have been German, Irish, or whatever nationality. But with each passing generation, the descendants have less connection to the Old Country and think more of themselves as Americans. Humans in Tyria are the same way; their ancestors were from somewhere else, but humans in Tyria now are native; thousands of years and however many generations have made them so.

    Tyria is not America, German, Irish etc are same species. (can add more but it would go too political)

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • and the origin matters in which way?

    None at all? Yeah, as expected.

    If the charr went to war, everyone would realize that after a maybe victory against the humans, they are next. Also don't underestimate the humans, they still are pretty good with their magic. At the end, the charr first had to fight through a hostile environment to get to the humans, they would face an alliance of advanced species AND they would have a southern flank where the elonian humans can push in at any given time. Strategically not a promising concept. All the while domestic problems (grawl, ogres, harpies) would still be annoying. Not on the 'they win great battle X' scale of annoying but on the 'our supply lines took a hit' scale.

    It might be surprising for some, but tactics do not win wars, logistics and supply do. You might have a huge advantage in numbers, but what is that worth, if your soldiers are weakened from starvation?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    and the origin matters in which way?

    None at all? Yeah, as expected.

    If the charr went to war, everyone would realize that after a maybe victory against the humans, they are next. Also don't underestimate the humans, they still are pretty good with their magic. At the end, the charr first had to fight through a hostile environment to get to the humans, they would face an alliance of advanced species AND they would have a southern flank where the elonian humans can push in at any given time. Strategically not a promising concept. All the while domestic problems (grawl, ogres, harpies) would still be annoying. Not on the 'they win great battle X' scale of annoying but on the 'our supply lines took a hit' scale.

    It might be surprising for some, but tactics do not win wars, logistics and supply do. You might have a huge advantage in numbers, but what is that worth, if your soldiers are weakened from starvation?

    Or, maybe all will recall that humans and their gods brought nothing good to Tyria?

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Which is false.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    Making a couple assumptions here:
    -The targets are constrained to the other side. There've been several posts here that assume the charr suddenly go to war with every other race within reach all at once, but I'm working on the basis of no one getting attacked outside the charr, humans, and races/individuals explicitly coming down on one side or the other.
    -Cantha and any other hypothetical human populations outside Kryta, Ebonhawke, Amnoon and Elona aren't involved.

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    How would each faction react to this?

    Not entirely sure what you mean by faction, so I'm just going to guess it's the mixed-race entites:
    *The Pact, and Vigil, would be outspoken advocates of a peace process, but would not intervene militarily on either side. This is exactly the sort of conflict they were intended to ignore.
    *The Priory would grumble privately about the idiocy of the chest-beating generals, and would suspend any dig sites too close to the battlefields (and shuffle personnel of one race out of the other's territory), but otherwise would carry on like nothing was happening.
    *The Whispers would be pulling strings behind the scenes, trying to rein back both sides far enough to give the peacemakers room to do their thing.
    *Lion's Arch would make the token signs of support towards Kryta to keep their neighbor from bothering them and then not follow through, same as with the centaurs.

    Would other races go support the charr or the humans, assuming their earlier grievances with either race? Who would stay neutral?

    *The sylvari would push hard for peace, which wouldn't get anywhere. If the war seems to be a clear case of charr aggression, they'll give up and come in on the human's side. Otherwise, they remain on the sidelines, tuned out by the combatants. (Even in a case of clear human aggression, the charr aren't the type to ask for sylvari assistance.)
    *More norn would come in on the charr's side than the humans (and the charr would make better use of their norn), but we're still talking individual decisions, not a commitment that could reflect the race as a whole.
    *The asura extend non-military aid to both sides, profiting while weaseling out of anything that'd commit them to one side or the other. If forced to choose, they'd go with the charr, but neither side has the means or skill to put them in that corner.
    *The only other race that might intervene in a significant way is the centaurs. After using the human distraction early on to back off and regroup, if conditions permit, they could down hard on the Krytan flanks during a moment of vulnerability.

    What would be the outcome?

    *If it's just Ebonhawke and Kryta, Ebonhawke falls. They made an amazing stand during the earlier sieges, but the move towards aerial warfare bypasses too many of their strengths, and Kryta isn't going to over-commit to make up the difference. The charr then mount an invasion of Kryta over the Shiverpeaks, which proves unsustainable and gets beaten back. The mountains become a stable border between the two, as a matter of practicality.

    *If Amnoon and Elona come in on the human side, the increase of manpower, and the availability of a second supply line that doesn't rely on the gates, probably allows Ebonhawke and a handful of their new outlying territories to hold. The war turns into a bloody stalemate across the Fields of Ruin, a quagmire with no easy way out until something unexpected shakes up the balance.

    (Elona would suffer for the war, but in its current state, there's not enough accountability built in for that to neccesarily recall their forces from Ascalon.)

    *If Kryta is the inciting aggressor, without necessarily involving Ebonhawke from the outset, than it winds up much like the above, except split between two fronts, the FoR and a Krytan beachhead in Fireheart Rise. Even if Elona and Amnoon stay out of it, the need to split their forces between two theaters and remain on the defensive may prevent the charr from leveraging the overwhelming force they'd need to close one down, unless they abandon everything east of the Brand long enough to beat the Krytans back and gamble on being able to retake the territory afterwards.

    (As a minor side note, I think kodan culture would require them to come in against the charr, but they aren't in a position to make much difference.)

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    @Syronus.7605 said:
    Even in the previous war they made it all the way to Orr so what is to stop them wiping humanity out this time?

    Things are a bit different now, though. In the last war, the humans weren't coming in fresh; they'd been killing each other for sixty years, and the militaries and treasuries of all three nations were explicitly running on empty. Add in Kryta's additional problem of losing their king, and the position they're in today is much, much stronger than the first time they beat back the charr.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • again, why should the norn support the charr?

    there is no glory in supporting the supposedly dominant side. Winning is not everything, at least for norn. And glory can not be earned if you roflstomp around.

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    again, why should the norn support the charr?

    there is no glory in supporting the supposedly dominant side. Winning is not everything, at least for norn. And glory can not be earned if you roflstomp around.

    I think people suspect such because charr and norn are "pal races".

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    again, why should the norn support the charr?

    there is no glory in supporting the supposedly dominant side. Winning is not everything, at least for norn. And glory can not be earned if you roflstomp around.

    In short? Because the norn are buddy-buddy with the charr, while their general racial attitude towards the humans is gentle contempt. (The best place to see this is Hoelbrak, not the article, but I'm not picking through and then linking a dozen different dialogues today.) We see the norn and charr getting on better than any other pair of races except the humans and sylvari.

    As for the glory thing- I don't believe the charr are in a dominant rofl-stomp position, regardless of how the chips fall with the other races, but even if they were. Norn aren't in for glory, they're in for legends; legends mean being remembered. Most norn combatants, I suspect, would get drawn into the fight through either happenstance or personal connections- and again, both of those will tilt the overall population towards the charr- but for the ones who do enter as a calculated choice to feed their legends, they need to consider more than just which side has the advantage. The best outcome would be joining the underdogs and pulling out a win, but that only works if there's a reasonable chance of winning. If you join the losing side, the only way you get remembered is if your heroic last stand allows for some of your allies to escape or if it impresses the enemy enough to earn their admiration- and charr don't admire resistance. Conversely, there is material that can feed a legend even in an overwhelming victory. Because it's an individual thing, your story doesn't have to acknowledge that the enemy never had a chance at winning the battle; all you have to boast is that you mowed through fifty battle-hardened soldiers in the course of the rout.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    Or, maybe all will recall that humans and their gods brought nothing good to Tyria?

    Again: probably > 90% of the people in Tyria of ALL races, INCLUDING humans, don't even know that humans aren't originally native to Tyria. And those that do know don't care, because humans have been in Tyria so long that history has completely forgotten when they arrived or where they came from. All the humans presently in Tyria were born in Tyria, from lines of ancestry that have been in Tyria for thousands of years; the fact that their distant ancestors came from Somewhere Else is largely forgotten and utterly irrelevant in the present. Humans today are accepted as native and consider themselves native, whether their species actually is or not. Now give that a rest already.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    again, why should the norn support the charr?

    there is no glory in supporting the supposedly dominant side. Winning is not everything, at least for norn. And glory can not be earned if you roflstomp around.

    In short? Because the norn are buddy-buddy with the charr, while their general racial attitude towards the humans is gentle contempt. (The best place to see this is Hoelbrak, not the article, but I'm not picking through and then linking a dozen different dialogues today.) We see the norn and charr getting on better than any other pair of races except the humans and sylvari.

    As for the glory thing- I don't believe the charr are in a dominant rofl-stomp position, regardless of how the chips fall with the other races, but even if they were. Norn aren't in for glory, they're in for legends; legends mean being remembered. Most norn combatants, I suspect, would get drawn into the fight through either happenstance or personal connections- and again, both of those will tilt the overall population towards the charr- but for the ones who do enter as a calculated choice to feed their legends, they need to consider more than just which side has the advantage. The best outcome would be joining the underdogs and pulling out a win, but that only works if there's a reasonable chance of winning. If you join the losing side, the only way you get remembered is if your heroic last stand allows for some of your allies to escape or if it impresses the enemy enough to earn their admiration- and charr don't admire resistance. Conversely, there is material that can feed a legend even in an overwhelming victory. Because it's an individual thing, your story doesn't have to acknowledge that the enemy never had a chance at winning the battle; all you have to boast is that you mowed through fifty battle-hardened soldiers in the course of the rout.

    As a Norn RPer once said to me, "You don't build a legend by kicking Skritt." Just like in real life, you don't get better at anything by taking the easy path. You take the tough opponents, the difficult problems, the impossible solutions, and you put your name on them. That's the Norn way.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And for the norn who want to get better, that's what they do. But for the ones who think they're already good enough to deserve their legends? The ones who think that their legend will come to them whichever choice they make? The ones who don't mind stepping away from the legend-building for a bit to help a friend? The ones who pick and choose their fights, figuring a thousand careful victories carves out a more glorious sage than one grand defeat? The ones who like this legend-building idea in principle, but also want to stay alive to enjoy it?

    There's no one way to be norn, or even to strive to embody the ideals of norn culture, the same way there isn't for humans or charr or any other race. Some norn would side with the humans, yes. But it's ultimately an individual decision, and there are as many reasons for those as there are different individuals. I just happen to think most of the reason that broadly apply across norn culture as a whole happen to favor the charr.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • I disagree that norn culture favours charr. One is extremely regimented and controlled, the other isn't. Along with a multitude of other differences.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭

    The Shiverpeaks aren't really a factor in this, apart from the difficult terrain. The Norn let charr forces pass through their territory last time they invaded Kryta, presumably so long as they didn't interfere with anything on the way. Were hostilities to resume, it's highly likely the mountains would be neutral ground again, particularly now that the Norn control Borlis Pass.

    It is more than possible that any renewed fighting would fracture the Legions as well, with the Iron Legion a little more likely to avoid war due to their ties to other races. Notably, they're the ones in the front line, and also the ones who have all the adversaries to deal with already. The Blood Legion, to my knowledge, just has Kralkatorrik's minions to deal with and probably a handful of Flame Legion. Ash has basically nothing.

    Ebonhawke's fate would likely determine the progress of the war. Its fortifications are still quite daunting, and to a large degree the outcome would depend on how each side is matched in aerial combat. Iron and Blood would both be inclined to besiege the city again and throw resources at it, hoping not to fight to a stalemate again. Ash, I suspect, would be more inclined to feign weakness by allowing the front lines to withdraw quite a long way from Ebonhawke, spread the human forces thin, and go for the head.

    With Ebonhawke standing, I don't imagine the charr - and certainly not the Iron Legion - sending too many forces over the Shiverpeaks. Even if it were taken, though, it's quite possible the Iron Legion would stop there, as Kryta isn't really viewed as ancestral charr territory, except by a few extremists who like to look a bit too far back into history.

    And unless the war did cross the Shiverpeaks, I don't think it's likely any other factions would pick sides. They're all too distant, or in the case of the Norn, skritt, ogres etc. they have no loyalties to either side.

  • All other races would be neutral, except maybe norn, who would probably join both sides to get some glory, probably as mercenaries. They have never had too many qualms about fighting each other.

    But realistically speaking, the accumulated influence of the truce, the BLTrading Post's profits, the orders (especially the whispers) and the newfound connections to the Olmakhan would probably cause a slow and quiet revolution within the legions, and eventually move their main culture from a mostly militaristic organization to a meritocratic industrial society, and probably begin to slowly discard the fahrar system in favor of families and schooling systems.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    My prognostics for charrs VS humans:

    -Sylvaris, Quaggan, Kodans, Tengu, Hyleks would not hear the battle call. BUT They will kick knees of anyone who would try to fight them.
    -Skritts will group themselves to have a better hive mind and will figure that they have to join charrs or asuras. Will also take in account who offer more shinies.
    -Asuras as always feel very superior and secured concerning their position. Would simply activate their force fields, lightning cannons and army of golems; waiting tranquilly for the end of the fight.
    -Considering their locations, Norn will join charrs, seriously because free weapons! And the love of drinking/ having big feasts.
    -Elonians are far and don't care at all, same for choyas or awakened.

    -Other races: Kraits will enslave some quaggans because why not? As long as they can make prisoners they join charrs transitionally. Grawls defend the norn territories in the back front. Jotun are acting the same. Because both of those races want to defend their homeland. Ettins joined norn, because of lion's guards and humans exploiting them. Centaurs don't care, but if they can smash humans they are happy, they joined norns too. Dredges don't care and will hide themselves. Nightmare court is doomed. Sons of Svanir are okay ignoring the situation.

    -Charrs got several allies, and peaceful ones like olmakhan are allowed to live on charrs lands as long as they don't oppose themselves to other charrs. Norns and Skritts decided to join them. Asuras labs on their road assure to participate creating some weapons to avoid enslaving or lab destruction, Inquest will gather every weapons and last high-tech golems marks to help charrs, because they definitely need some funding for their "research", also require some test subjects, everything is welcomed.

    -Humans are alone and will be eradicated by others because no-one very love them. They are surrounded by enemies: Norn+Charrs at east and at the south, asuras will shoot at them if they are trespassing. Sylvaris will try to pacify the situation by interfering and will be eradicated by asuras, they will simply finish what they started doing on sylvaris since the beginning: experimentation on talking trees. Ebonhawke retreat to elona sealing the gate. Letting the city to charrs after loosing too many soldiers. Bandits will for the first time help other humans making solid outposts, but are rapidly submerged by charr tanks and asuran golems.

    The outcome: Humans are pushed back north to woodland cascades and maguuma wastes, charrs and norns own now queensdale, gandarran field and divinity reach.
    Asuras own the whole maguuma forest, from metrica province to Brisban wildlands/Silverwastes. As a reward, charrs decided to cut divinity reach in half, one part for charrs, one for norns.

    Humans are still very present in Elona but only there.
    Tengu done nothing and got 0 losses. Same with kodans. Quaggans villages got ravaged because they were on the road. No more sylvaris apart some in exodus, some decided to travel to elona.
    Orders got destabilized from the inside and several divided themselves in two parts, one with only asuras but it fusion with colleges or create more departments within their society; and one with norns/charrs more concentrate on war councils and exploration. The pact assure the security in Orr, Canopy and Mount Maelstrom, considered as an independent organization, all races are welcomed and considered as peaceful, orr is purified and became the new home for sylvaris who survived.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    You all are thinking way too simplistically in terms of race vs. race.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    It wouldn't work that way realistically, of course, but it's already been observed that this war wouldn't even start realistically. The premise of the question is that things have changed enough that the charr and humans can be handled as racial wholes.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Yeah if this happens it's more likely to be a charr civil war, the three legions are only reluctant allies in the first place.

  • again, everybody who thinks that asura or sylvari will be neutral or side with the charr need to rethink the whole thing. If charr attack, it is because they want to rule the whole continent again, just like in the glorious distant history before humans appeared.

    That means, there is no room for asura, sylvari, norn or tengu. After the humans they will be next. And they know it.

    Case closed, charr will face EVERYBODY. Also while they do have some impressive machines, those were never good enough to take on ressource starved Ebonhawke. What do you think will happen when the seraphs with their (we know from the books they have them) magical users get on to it? Bandits are gone. White mantle are gone. Centaurs are broken.

    The charr will march into a fight, they can not win. Against everybody else, people who can and will use brutal magic the charr have nothing to put against. The charr have another problem: they are land locked. Please have a look at history what that means for a nation fighting another one who has access to the seas.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    again, everybody who thinks that asura or sylvari will be neutral or side with the charr need to rethink the whole thing. If charr attack, it is because they want to rule the whole continent again, just like in the glorious distant history before humans appeared.

    That means, there is no room for asura, sylvari, norn or tengu. After the humans they will be next. And they know it.

    Case closed, charr will face EVERYBODY. Also while they do have some impressive machines, those were never good enough to take on ressource starved Ebonhawke. What do you think will happen when the seraphs with their (we know from the books they have them) magical users get on to it? Bandits are gone. White mantle are gone. Centaurs are broken.

    The charr will march into a fight, they can not win. Against everybody else, people who can and will use brutal magic the charr have nothing to put against. The charr have another problem: they are land locked. Please have a look at history what that means for a nation fighting another one who has access to the seas.

    How do you figure it'd go if the humans attacked?

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    They wouldn't. Unlike the charr, the humans, culturally, have very much by-in-large moved on from the loss of Ascalon and Orr, they have very little drive or inclination to attack the charr, whilst the opposite is true for the charr.

  • Zania.8461Zania.8461 Member ✭✭✭

    From lore prespective, I don't see many races siding with charr, given that the legions would be existential threat to them after Kryta's fall. Some might maintain neutrality officially, while supporting humans by unofficial channels.

    From the gameplay perspective, if such thing happens it will be charr vs all playable races (including iron legion/PC starting in Iron Citadel). So that should give you an idea as to how the main races will react.

    On a less serious note, since 60% of the population are human females anyway, Blood and Ash legions will be crushed by a sheer swarm of HF commanders. That, and we might have a friendly elder dragon by the time that happens (although I would be curious to see if Aurene would interfere in such affairs, as that would push her into a permanent policing force).

    On a speculative side, I would not mind having the pre-assembled invasion force having to deal with Kralk or another Elder Dragon. Kinda like we utilized the Awakened against the Forged.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2019

    I still think people are massively underestimating Kryta and Ebonhawke here. Let's have some context:

    Ascalon, Kryta and Orr were far from their glory days when the charr began their war against humanity. They had been riven by literal_ centuries_ of infighting and wars thus drained of manpower and funds.

    It took the Searing to bring Ascalon to its knees after decades of conflict - by itself, with all the handicaps mentioned above - and even then it still took the full united might of the charr time to overcome the Ascalonians, and then after two centuries of sieging a singular city, cut off from aid and supplies, they could not manage to take that.

    Kryta was suffering from poor morale after their king fled, and even if the mursaat offered help the charr simply could not counter, the majority of the fighting in throwing back the charr was performed by a, most critically, devoted, fanatical and motivated force of humans. Kryta was also, at the time, far less developed and populated than it is in modern GW2. Divinity's Reach is essentially Ebonhawke on steroids in terms of defensibility if the charr even got that far through forts, havens and hostile territory the humans know far better than they do.

    Orr was not even fully conquered by the charr when it was sunk by Khilbron. Orr was a decaying kingdom far passed it's prime, hit even worse by the Guild Wars than either of the other two, and likely significantly depopulated.

    More to the point, no kingdom aided any of the others at any point. The charr took Ascalon and Orr (thanks to Khilbron, mostly) out piecemeal. And then when they went up against Kryta to do the same, they failed.

    The charr didn't attack humanity when they were at their apex, they attacked them after humanity had knocked itself down far from it's pinnacle.

    It is quite clear that Kryta is well positioned to fight the charr to a standstill without the aid of any of the other races. They are united, consolidated and motivated, with a far more stable position in the world. On the offence I very much concur that they would not make much headway against the charr - But they don't need to. They just need to hold on to what they have, the charr need to take land to fuel their war machine, whilst the humans can subsist on what they have. That's what they have adapted to do, whilst the Legions need to expand to justify their existence, especially during wartime. For every day, month or year Kryta denies the charr their expansion, the more unstable the Legions become.

    (Gonna shill the Templin Institute here, their video is great )

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2019

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    A lot of good points. Read his post, it's worth it.
    (Gonna shill the Templin Institute here, their video is great)

    Before the fall of Lion's arch in 1219 AE, Divinty's Reach was a mere outpost with a tomb north of Shaemoor. Divinity's Reach replaced Lion's Arch as a capital and the Krytan Ministry was founded because the king's centralized seat of power broke down. As a city, Divinity's Reach is younger than the Black Citadel (1112 AE). Old Lion's arch was not quite as strong as modern Divinity's Reach and was conquered by Queen Salma and her band of supporters, the Shining Blade, in 1079 AE.

    But that was after 1070 AE, where the humans and charr both were weakened. Remember, the charr took massive losses in Orr* and Ascalon, so when they went for Kryta, their morale and war support was waning as well. The other legions were already growing discontent with Flame's rulership, as each defeat was seen as Flame wasting the other legion's soldiers and resources.
    *Orr would have fallen to Flame Legion had Khilbron not nuked the Kingdom.
    As for Kryta, I suspect the population boost from Ascalonian settlers made current Kryta possible. They built many new settlements, growing the Kingdom's economy early on, which likely compounded over the following 253 years. So current Kryta is far more powerful from a magical, cultural, military, economic and diplomatic perspective.

    Same with the Iron Legion. They have not been slacking off either, while Iron is not well versed in magic, their military and economy are top tier and their diplomacy, while not human level amazing, is fairly solid. Sadly we don't know all that much about Blood and Ash legion territories.

    But most people here assume the charr attack. That's likely because the best chance for a human attack was Caudecus, but the Krytan line has somehow spawned Oswald Thorn, so if another such king were to inherit Kryta, he might attempt to wage war against centaurs (for tradition's sake), Lion's Arch (Kryta's old capital), the charr (He might claim Ascalon) and even the hylek (because their croaking annoys him).

    Though the most likely scenario involves a cold war situation, where Kryta implicitly supports all things that annoy the charr, while the legions, Ash in particular, might prop up all threats to Kryta. Lion's Arch would be the centre of all the required money laundering, weapon smuggling and espionage, so it would become immensely wealthy, while Krytan nobles and Charr officers pretend that they have no connection to all these activities while trying to one up each other at every turn. Ebonhawke might even try to play both sides, hoping to gain independence from Kryta, and seeking to gain the best of deals from the Iron Legion.

    Edit: The Video is okay. Did the Templin guys ever plan to analyse the Legions and the Asura society?

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2019

    most would probably stay out of it.

    depending on the reason behind the war

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd put myself in the shoes of the asuras and sell high tech weapons prototype to both faction. Why bother with petty things when guinea pigs come and pay me to be the ones to test my products.

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