If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side?

245

Comments

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    @Castigator.3470 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    A lot of good points. Read his post, it's worth it.
    (Gonna shill the Templin Institute here, their video is great)

    Before the fall of Lion's arch in 1219 AE, Divinty's Reach was a mere outpost with a tomb north of Shaemoor. Divinity's Reach replaced Lion's Arch as a capital and the Krytan Ministry was founded because the king's centralized seat of power broke down. As a city, Divinity's Reach is younger than the Black Citadel (1112 AE). Old Lion's arch was not quite as strong as modern Divinity's Reach and was conquered by Queen Salma and her band of supporters, the Shining Blade, in 1079 AE.

    But that was after 1070 AE, where the humans and charr both were weakened. Remember, the charr took massive losses in Orr* and Ascalon, so when they went for Kryta, their morale and war support was waning as well. The other legions were already growing discontent with Flame's rulership, as each defeat was seen as Flame wasting the other legion's soldiers and resources.
    *Orr would have fallen to Flame Legion had Khilbron not nuked the Kingdom.
    As for Kryta, I suspect the population boost from Ascalonian settlers made current Kryta possible. They built many new settlements, growing the Kingdom's economy early on, which likely compounded over the following 253 years. So current Kryta is far more powerful from a magical, cultural, military, economic and diplomatic perspective.

    Same with the Iron Legion. They have not been slacking off either, while Iron is not well versed in magic, their military and economy are top tier and their diplomacy, while not human level amazing, is fairly solid. Sadly we don't know all that much about Blood and Ash legion territories.

    But most people here assume the charr attack. That's likely because the best chance for a human attack was Caudecus, but the Krytan line has somehow spawned Oswald Thorn, so if another such king were to inherit Kryta, he might attempt to wage war against centaurs (for tradition's sake), Lion's Arch (Kryta's old capital), the charr (He might claim Ascalon) and even the hylek (because their croaking annoys him).

    Though the most likely scenario involves a cold war situation, where Kryta implicitly supports all things that annoy the charr, while the legions, Ash in particular, might prop up all threats to Kryta. Lion's Arch would be the centre of all the required money laundering, weapon smuggling and espionage, so it would become immensely wealthy, while Krytan nobles and Charr officers pretend that they have no connection to all these activities while trying to one up each other at every turn. Ebonhawke might even try to play both sides, hoping to gain independence from Kryta, and seeking to gain the best of deals from the Iron Legion.

    Edit: The Video is okay. Did the Templin guys ever plan to analyse the Legions and the Asura society?

    2 small things.

    1) Salma never conquered Lion's Arch. She came to Lion's Arch and the lionguard let her in without bloodshed.

    2) The charr attacks on Kryta and Orr took place simultaneously after they wrongly assumed that Ascalon was broken. So their failure to take Kryta had nothing to do with the failure of their invasion of Orr.

  • @Narcemus.1348 said:
    2 small things.

    1) Salma never conquered Lion's Arch. She came to Lion's Arch and the lionguard let her in without bloodshed.

    2) The charr attacks on Kryta and Orr took place simultaneously after they wrongly assumed that Ascalon was broken. So their failure to take Kryta had nothing to do with the failure of their invasion of Orr.

    Ah, thank you.

  • Humans are in no position to go to war with anyone, either now or in the future. The strength of the humans hinges on their faith to the Six and since they're no longer around, assuming that they won't ever come back, then humans are powerless and will come to extinction. This is why peace is very important to the Humans. As far as the Charr goes, they only care about Ascalon, only the Flame Legion wants to expand and fortunately they no longer in power. Unless the Humans tries to retake Ascalon, they won't be at war with the Charr.

    However, assuming that they threw reasons and their senses out the window and went to war anyway, the Human will lose against the Charr. The Norn will be neutral. The Asura will join the Humans as arms dealer since Charr makes their own techs and the Sylvari will also join the humans due to their spiritual connections through Ventari. Despite having this alliance, Charr live and breath war, while Humans are not well trained, thus Humans will be annihilated if they charge head on in the field of battle. Charr is simply superior in training, strategy, tactics, and weaponry. The Humans would need the blessings from their gods in order to fight a Charr 1-to-1. Without the blessings from the Six, it would take 3 Humans to match a single Charr since Charrs are battle hardened. The only way for the Humans to match the Charr is to have the support of both Sylvari and Asura.

    This is of course assuming that the Charr will be alone in this. The Charr might seal a pact with the Centaurs since Humans will be their common enemy. The primitive Centaurs and their wooden Trebuchets are already too much for the Humans, now imagine facing the superior war engines of the Charr. With the Centaurs allied with the Charr, the Human-formed alliance will have no chance of winning without their gods. This is of course limited in the continent of Tyria without including the Humans from Cantha and Elona. Since Elona and Kryta has a historical connection, Elona might help Kryta, but they too are in no position to go to war that's why I doubt that will be able to.

    TL;DR
    Norn - neutral, wants everyone to be friends
    Asura - sides with Humans as arms dealer
    Sylvari - sides with Humans due to spiritual connection through Ventari's teaching
    Centaurs - sides with Charr, Humans as common enemy

    No Human gods, Humans loses.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    I don't know. The humans of Ascalon did pretty fine without any help from the Gods or anyone else. It took the charr resorting to the Searing to bring them to their knees - Nothing to do with this apparently legendary charr prowess in battle.

    How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

    (Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    I think at this point a lot of Charr wouldn't approve of a war with humans.. there may even be a faction of Charr siding with the humans in open revolt against their own for starting another war with humanity.

    As for the factions I think the Charr may find some allies with the Skritt, Dredge, Grawl and the Centaurs.. but overall they would just use them..
    I doubt the Norn would get involved as they've absolutely no reason to.. same for the Sylvari who likely would feel it's not their war.
    That said if the Charr or Humans attempted to wage war through the shiverpeaks the Norn may end up fighting either or both sides to protect their own lands.
    The Asura could be swayed to the Humans side if they believed the Charr had returned to their old invade and conquer ways and feel that one day the Charr would invade their territory as well.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

    Humans was on a losing streak and Divinity's Reach is the last bastion for humanity. Humans do not train for war like the Charrs. From a small cub, Charr already know danger and trained to be in a warband. Humans in Kryta don't have the same culture. Elona is close to war-ready than Kryta but Joko have persecuted the Sunspears for years. All they have left are a small band of resistance than can actually fight.

    In addition, Kryta has ballista made of wood. How is that going to work against the Charr tanks? Asura golems is the only thing that can match the Charr tanks. However, just like the Humans, Asura has a scholar culture, not a war culture. Same goes with the Sylvari, they are explorers, not warriors.

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    (Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

    I disagree.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

  • There will be no such thing like war between races/species. It's not charr-human conflict, it can be "High Legion-Krytan conflict", and we have to consider political reasons for other groups to support one side, not racial reasons.
    In Tyria, species/races are divided beetwen themselfs. Humans are fighting with humans (bandits, white mantle, separatists, evil multi-racial organisations), charrs with charrs (renegades, flame legion etc.). So, there will be no racial support for any race, because thing like this (racial support) just can't exist when races are divided
    But the most interetsing thing, in my opinion, is that in current state, there possibly will be humans on charr side and charrs on human side. There will be this whole paranoia about this (like beetwen IRL humans, when soviets have sended at least a lot ppls to gulags for having german-sounding surename), but with political changes, quick information exchange, cooperation in Pact, there will be much more reasons to consider than racial relationship (and there shouldn't be genocide of any race, only occupation, because of "international forces" and ordinary greater knowledge of other races, about the fact that they are not everyone on the same side, etc.). And I'm almost sure if Legions and Kryta wents to war, there will be more than two sides. It might be something like High Legions vs Kryta vs Multiracial coalition builded by representatives of important organization and political sides (political sides like one whole Legion)

  • @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

    I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

    I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

    It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I don't know. The humans of Ascalon did pretty fine without any help from the Gods or anyone else. It took the charr resorting to the Searing to bring them to their knees - Nothing to do with this apparently legendary charr prowess in battle.

    How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

    (Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

    The Mongols had the largest contiguous empire in the world, sorry but just no. The Romans also had a pretty huge empire and were pretty warlike. It didn't last in the long run, but no empire or nation even has really lasted in a single state for more than maybe a couple hundred years. The world is constantly changing.

  • @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I don't know. The humans of Ascalon did pretty fine without any help from the Gods or anyone else. It took the charr resorting to the Searing to bring them to their knees - Nothing to do with this apparently legendary charr prowess in battle.

    How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

    (Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

    The Mongols had the largest contiguous empire in the world, sorry but just no. The Romans also had a pretty huge empire and were pretty warlike. It didn't last in the long run, but no empire or nation even has really lasted in a single state for more than maybe a couple hundred years. The world is constantly changing.

    Traditionally, warfare-based cultures have done exceedingly well in real-world history, falling apart when the leadership grew cocky or weak. Frequently, this came down to logistics.

    Logistics don't appear to be a problem for the Charr legions. They do a better job at securing supply lines than they actually do on the field of battle (and they still do pretty well there). At no point through the history of Tyrian warfare do we see the Legions running low on supplies in a battle.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

    I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

    It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

    I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I don't know. The humans of Ascalon did pretty fine without any help from the Gods or anyone else. It took the charr resorting to the Searing to bring them to their knees - Nothing to do with this apparently legendary charr prowess in battle.

    How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

    (Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

    The Mongols had the largest contiguous empire in the world, sorry but just no. The Romans also had a pretty huge empire and were pretty warlike. It didn't last in the long run, but no empire or nation even has really lasted in a single state for more than maybe a couple hundred years. The world is constantly changing.

    Traditionally, warfare-based cultures have done exceedingly well in real-world history, falling apart when the leadership grew cocky or weak. Frequently, this came down to logistics.

    Logistics don't appear to be a problem for the Charr legions. They do a better job at securing supply lines than they actually do on the field of battle (and they still do pretty well there). At no point through the history of Tyrian warfare do we see the Legions running low on supplies in a battle.

    Yep! Which is why saying "warlike societies don't do well" from a historical standpoint just means they don't know their actual history.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    It seems some of you are confusing militaristic society with successful military history. Just because some state/kingdom/empire achieved XYZ military victory it doesn't mean that its a militaristic society. Quoting examples from historical empires makes little sense since some of those collapsed before they even consolidated their rule over their territory and are thus hardly an example of a "working" system. Others weren't really that militaristic as many people think them to be. Also on a side note, there is something called political science. Within it there is a subdiscipline called "state building". We actually know what kinds of societal/governmental organisations yield what kind of result and what kind of variables are needed to go against the trend. Spoiler alert, militaristic societies are not at the top of the list.

    On topic of Charr vs. Human. In some hypothetical conflict between the two its hard to tell. There are way to many variables that we do not know of. Number of population, economic strenght, internal integrity and consolidation. Infrastructure and technology. Usage of magic and magical weaponry. Shadow diplomacy. All of these can severely influence the outcome of war.

    Second, there is a question of how and why the war was started. This plays a huge part in how other races position themselves and which side they'll pick. Not to mention that it can also influence internal situation of warring states. This can cause high levels of integration and unity and strong motivation. But if the reason is "wrong" it can result in low support for war effort and in more extreme versions even in internal conflicts. Also, this "how and why" can also determine how other global actors position themselves. This can result in countless actions, for example military help, humanitarian aid, sanctions against the aggressing party or even something more punishing. Every race has interest in maintaining peace and cooperation in central Tyria. Game goes really out of the way to show you how commerce oriented nations in the game are, with Lions Arch being in the center of it. No race has interest in further chaos and instability of war.

    There is also a question of Lions Arch, an "immigrant nation" that's melting pot of cultures and races. Considering that LA is geographically at the center of the region and that its strong economic player that is also mostly human dominated it is very likely that LA would join the war the very same day it starts. But on the otherside, since its an "immigrant" nation it is also quite possible that it wouldn't join the war in order to keep internal integrity and stability. So it comes down to who is in power and what are their political priorities. Currently, I would argue that LA would get involved.

    Third. We know very little of Charr outside Ascalon. Our knowledge of other legions is shaky at best. And that's a huge unknown. Integrity within each legion, inter-legion integrity and consolidation are extremely important. Not to mention individual capabilities of their executive ranks. Effective supply chain among legions and territorial compact they already have can largely go in their favour. We don't really know how well their infrastructure is connected. On the one side you could get a smooth supply chain of resources, tech and manpower. But on the other side you could get an outdate system that missmatches resources and creates gross delays in allocation.
    For comparison sake, Kryta has Elona which was recently wrecked by Balthazar and Kralk. Unless Cantha somehow magically pops out,it doesn't bode well for humans in this particular category.

    Fourth. In Guild Wars 2 there is an independant military order called the Pact. Even though its quite wrecked since Mordy, its still a respectable force, but more importantly they carry a lot of social and political capital. Unless they split in two, simply having the support of the Pact can help a warring state.
    Also, the Pact has Order of Whispers within it, and they have shown to have no problem with getting their hands dirty when it comes to politics and kingmaking.

    TLDR; There are way to many unknowns, but in my opinion its most likely that the side which starts the war is gonna be on the loosing side. If its the Charr it might last longer because of territorial chession between the Legions. On the other hand, if Charr do start it, many withing Iron Legion might be against it, thus severely hindering integrity of Legions and overall war effort.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    The Roman Empire was not a society focused on warfare. What made it so good at warfare was it's grasp of other elements apart from "having people who like to/are good at fighting".

    So, yeah, I do know my history, thanks.

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

    I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

    It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

    I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

    Well then, might as well assume that their hot air balloons and the dome that protected them during the siege of Divinity's reach are charr tech also... I mean humanity has shown no capability to actually produce anything over the last few centuries aside from sustaining a multiple centuries siege while keeping their siege capabilities at the same level as that of their enemy. Obviously they have no skills whatsoever.

  • Everything even vaguely technological that doesn't have glowing lights on it is charr technology, donchaknow?

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Everything even vaguely technological that doesn't have glowing lights on it is charr technology, donchaknow?

    To be fair a lot of modern Tyrian industrial equipment is charr made, so anything techy that isn't asuran will indeed be stereotyped as charr made. This should indicate that the Iron Legion really has the edge when it comes to industry, similar to how a PC is associated with the Windows OS, despite there being numerous alternatives, because the former holds around 90% marketshare. If the legions hold a comparable share in the production of industry goods, the stereotype is firmly grounded in reality and non-charr technological products are the exception. Going by Pareto Principle, it's likely that 80% of machine parts are supplied by 20% or Tyrian manufacturers and I would not be surprised if most of those are charr manufacturers.

    As for the steam creatures, were they not fallout from a certain Asura's meddling with potential timelines? I recall visiting Scarletts hideout finding crude copies of steam creature, so Scarlett might have just borrowed an existing design. That would at least make much more sense than Scarlett being the inventor of everything. It is even hinted that she studied the steamportals, but not made them. Plus, as a generalist, she'd be much better suited to combining existing technologies than to being a groundbreaking inventor in every field.

    As for the question of human and charr going to war: What if human and charr ally and wage war on ogres and centaurs? Both have something to gain here, namely territory and resources, can try improve their doctrines with relatively small risk and since the two theatres would be to the east of the Blazeridge Mountains and to the north of Harathi Hinterland, no one, except centaurs and ogres, would be particularly bothered by such expansion. Additionally, not many third parties would even care.

  • @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

    I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

    It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

    I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

    Well then, might as well assume that their hot air balloons and the dome that protected them during the siege of Divinity's reach are charr tech also... I mean humanity has shown no capability to actually produce anything over the last few centuries aside from sustaining a multiple centuries siege while keeping their siege capabilities at the same level as that of their enemy. Obviously they have no skills whatsoever.

    It's not a matter of whether they have the skills or not, it's a matter of their intent. There is no sign whatsoever that they have any intention to go to war with anyone. Thus, there is no need to build war machines. All the war preparations and equipment were delegated to the Pact. I think the Charr will find DR a threat if the human start amassing military personnel, supplies, and war machines. That is why I doubt that the watchknight is design and built by humans, since the Charr will find that as a threat.

    For the last century, the humans could have invented their own war machines, but didn't, even when facing the threat of Zhaitan being able to infiltrate the throne room. This is because they don't want to pose as a threat to the Charr, so they rely more on magic and manpower. Since the Charr didn't reacted negatively when the watchknight was announced, I am incline to believe that it is Charr-approved since they had a hand on designing and building it. It may be the humans who put the pieces together, but humans don't have a forge or furnace to build all the cogs and gears of the watch work. Such furnace can only be found in the Black Citadel. Now, I am also incline to accept if they tossed some rare items into the Mystic Forge and got a watchknight in return.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2019

    what on earth makes you think divinity's reach doesn't have the facilities to forge watchknights?

    i mean, besides the fact that it obviously DOES, because the watchknights exist.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    It's not a matter of whether they have the skills or not, it's a matter of their intent. There is no sign whatsoever that they have any intention to go to war with anyone. Thus, there is no need to build war machines. All the war preparations and equipment were delegated to the Pact. I think the Charr will find DR a threat if the human start amassing military personnel, supplies, and war machines. That is why I doubt that the watchknight is design and built by humans, since the Charr will find that as a threat.

    For the last century, the humans could have invented their own war machines, but didn't, even when facing the threat of Zhaitan being able to infiltrate the throne room. This is because they don't want to pose as a threat to the Charr, so they rely more on magic and manpower. Since the Charr didn't reacted negatively when the watchknight was announced, I am incline to believe that it is Charr-approved since they had a hand on designing and building it. It may be the humans who put the pieces together, but humans don't have a forge or furnace to build all the cogs and gears of the watch work. Such furnace can only be found in the Black Citadel. Now, I am also incline to accept if they tossed some rare items into the Mystic Forge and got a watchknight in return.

    There is nothing in the game that would indicate that humans are not developing technology because they don't want charr to see them as a threat. Don't forget that humans are magic oriented race, much more than charr who are more oriented towards technology. Humans have far less need to develop large machinery since they have culturally different approach to magic. People often forget that in fantasy worlds magic has similar usage and role as technology has in real world.

    But to be fair, game is really pushing the narrative that every invention in the game is either Asuran or Charr to the point where you ask yourself what was human contribution to airships

  • @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    It's not a matter of whether they have the skills or not, it's a matter of their intent. There is no sign whatsoever that they have any intention to go to war with anyone. Thus, there is no need to build war machines. All the war preparations and equipment were delegated to the Pact. I think the Charr will find DR a threat if the human start amassing military personnel, supplies, and war machines. That is why I doubt that the watchknight is design and built by humans, since the Charr will find that as a threat.

    For the last century, the humans could have invented their own war machines, but didn't, even when facing the threat of Zhaitan being able to infiltrate the throne room. This is because they don't want to pose as a threat to the Charr, so they rely more on magic and manpower. Since the Charr didn't reacted negatively when the watchknight was announced, I am incline to believe that it is Charr-approved since they had a hand on designing and building it. It may be the humans who put the pieces together, but humans don't have a forge or furnace to build all the cogs and gears of the watch work. Such furnace can only be found in the Black Citadel. Now, I am also incline to accept if they tossed some rare items into the Mystic Forge and got a watchknight in return.

    There is nothing in the game that would indicate that humans are not developing technology because they don't want charr to see them as a threat. Don't forget that humans are magic oriented race, much more than charr who are more oriented towards technology. Humans have far less need to develop large machinery since they have culturally different approach to magic. People often forget that in fantasy worlds magic has similar usage and role as technology has in real world.

    However, Charr has both magic and techs. That's where the disparity comes in. Since both sides will have access to magic, it is pointless to discuss that topic, thus I focused on military techs, training, and numbers.

    But to be fair, game is really pushing the narrative that every invention in the game is either Asuran or Charr to the point where you ask yourself what was human contribution to airships

    They fill the tank with gas which makes it float.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    However, Charr has both magic and techs. That's where the disparity comes in. Since both sides will have access to magic, it is pointless to discuss that topic, thus I focused on military techs, training, and numbers.

    Charrs have magic the same way humans have technology.

    They are not magic oriented culture nor is there any indication that they posses significant magical prowess. Only significant magical feat they ever did was Searing Cauldron and that was gift from the titans.

  • @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    However, Charr has both magic and techs. That's where the disparity comes in. Since both sides will have access to magic, it is pointless to discuss that topic, thus I focused on military techs, training, and numbers.

    Charrs have magic the same way humans have technology.

    They are not magic oriented culture nor is there any indication that they posses significant magical prowess. Only significant magical feat they ever did was Searing Cauldron and that was gift from the titans.

    I disagree. The Charr has many Legions and you're basically comparing humans magical capabilities to Blood, Iron, and Ash, which are mostly physically oriented Legions. However, the Legion that specialized in magic was the Fire Legion, which proves that the Charr posses magical prowess that rivals the humans.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    However, Charr has both magic and techs. That's where the disparity comes in. Since both sides will have access to magic, it is pointless to discuss that topic, thus I focused on military techs, training, and numbers.

    Charrs have magic the same way humans have technology.

    They are not magic oriented culture nor is there any indication that they posses significant magical prowess. Only significant magical feat they ever did was Searing Cauldron and that was gift from the titans.

    I disagree. The Charr has many Legions and you're basically comparing humans magical capabilities to Blood, Iron, and Ash, which are mostly physically oriented Legions. However, the Legion that specialized in magic was the Fire Legion, which proves that the Charr posses magical prowess that rivals the humans.

    Thats indeed True and found everywhere in the game. sure there are Magic meddlers in all legions but u have to consider that u cant Count the Player Population for that because the Player are not representative for their legions but one individual of the Legion the PC Chose at the creation
    Magic in General is distrusted a lot in charr Society for the flame Legion incidents in the past

    but assuming that for some reason the Pro war faction withing the charr get too power and the fights are starting it would surely be interesting to witness the complicated political issues that would be accusing.
    it is mentioned a lot that the races in emself are not united in this thread while the ones with the most unity may or may not be the sylvari considering that the court got hit pretty hard in the past.

    i dont really get why so many here said that the norn would join one side or the other.. the norn are the most individualistic race and dont form armys themselfes. why exactly would u think they would join some cause united? ofcourse some may join the fighting but each norn will make a choice for himself so they would be found on either side based on their own circumstances. i gotta say in gw2 ist not as good visualised how the norn Society is build as in gw1 (my opinion) but then i dont really Play em so maybe i missed some Major stuff.

    most interesting of all would be the Trouble the orders and the pact would face in case of a war between humans and charr because a good part of the pact are charr soldiers and not all of em are gladium who were cast out from the high legions. there are some who are ordered to join an order for one reason or another like the charr PC himself or that kitty in "the ghosts of ascalon" wich Name i forgot (sorry)
    wich would cause a lot of instability and distrust that would Need to be contained somehow. in the HoT incident the PC had big influence about how to deal with the sylvari who were potential collaborators.

    another interesting question would ofcourse be "is THE commander still alive?" at the time of this fictive war and is the PC still capable of fighting or too old/ injured/ magically drooling to participate in the battles. If still alive then ofc the next question would be if the PC approves of the war(not likely) and wich race he is.

    ofcourse the reason why the war starts and who is starting it is very importend so it Need to be specified to make more detailed assumptions but here some examples with interesting feat:*

    • PC is charr and joins the pro war anti human faction cuz of the oath sworn to the shinging blade wich may or may not be still intact (temporary death in PoF) wicjh could deal a huge blow against human Morales.
    • PC is charr but against the war ant takes Opposition to the orders of the high Legion. this would cause quit a ruckus for the charr
    • PC is charr against the legions reasoning for the war and joins the human side. this would definetly have an even heavier Impact

    • PC is Human but dont join any side only try to calm both sides down

    • PC is Human and joins the humans cuz disapproves the charr reasons - could cause some stir cuz some ex pact soldiers in the Legion might not want to fight the PC
    • PC is human and joins the charr cuz dissapproves human reasons -> fatal blow against the human side

    *human side considered as kryta

  • @norbes.3620 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    However, Charr has both magic and techs. That's where the disparity comes in. Since both sides will have access to magic, it is pointless to discuss that topic, thus I focused on military techs, training, and numbers.

    Charrs have magic the same way humans have technology.

    They are not magic oriented culture nor is there any indication that they posses significant magical prowess. Only significant magical feat they ever did was Searing Cauldron and that was gift from the titans.

    I disagree. The Charr has many Legions and you're basically comparing humans magical capabilities to Blood, Iron, and Ash, which are mostly physically oriented Legions. However, the Legion that specialized in magic was the Fire Legion, which proves that the Charr posses magical prowess that rivals the humans.

    Thats indeed True and found everywhere in the game. sure there are Magic meddlers in all legions but u have to consider that u cant Count the Player Population for that because the Player are not representative for their legions but one individual of the Legion the PC Chose at the creation
    Magic in General is distrusted a lot in charr Society for the flame Legion incidents in the past

    Even if magic is distrusted, it doesn't really change the fact that the Charr posses magical prowess that can rival the humans. In an event of a Human-Charr war, it's not unlikely that the High Legion will issue a truce with the Fire Legion and employ their magic users, even as fodder in the front line. The Fire Legion hates humans more than they hate the High Legion and more than likely will be glad to cooperate.

    However if this event unfolds, the Fire Legion will find this as an opportunity to gain power proving that the alliance with the humans was folly from the very beginning that the judgment of the High Legion is flawed. This will rally more Charr under the leadership of the Fire Legion putting them in command.

    This is a scenario that the Charr Legion I assumed have already considered, that a war with the human would mean the return of the Fire Legion in the position of power. This is why the Legions, even grudgingly, agreed to make peace with the humans. The alternative is not something they want.

    but assuming that for some reason the Pro war faction withing the charr get too power and the fights are starting it would surely be interesting to witness the complicated political issues that would be accusing.
    it is mentioned a lot that the races in emself are not united in this thread while the ones with the most unity may or may not be the sylvari considering that the court got hit pretty hard in the past.

    The only group that is more likely to start the war is the humans by attempting to retake Ascalon. I don't see the Charr starting any war despite of their militaristic culture. The humans, even though they want to retake Ascalon, is in no position of starting a war. So, that's that. Nobody from either side wants it.

    i dont really get why so many here said that the norn would join one side or the other.. the norn are the most individualistic race and dont form armys themselfes. why exactly would u think they would join some cause united? ofcourse some may join the fighting but each norn will make a choice for himself so they would be found on either side based on their own circumstances. i gotta say in gw2 ist not as good visualised how the norn Society is build as in gw1 (my opinion) but then i dont really Play em so maybe i missed some Major stuff.

    Yeah, I don't believe that the Norn will pick a side either. They didn't pick a side then, they won't pick a side now. Although, a few might join as mercenaries for the sake of glory.

    most interesting of all would be the Trouble the orders and the pact would face in case of a war between humans and charr because a good part of the pact are charr soldiers and not all of em are gladium who were cast out from the high legions. there are some who are ordered to join an order for one reason or another like the charr PC himself or that kitty in "the ghosts of ascalon" wich Name i forgot (sorry)

    I think you mean Ember. She was commanded by Almorra from the Vigil, not from the High Legion.

    wich would cause a lot of instability and distrust that would Need to be contained somehow. in the HoT incident the PC had big influence about how to deal with the sylvari who were potential collaborators.

    I'm sure the members of the Order and the Pact will stay neutral since their purpose is different. However, I would expect some members will abandon their Order/Pact duty to return home for the war.

    another interesting question would ofcourse be "is THE commander still alive?" at the time of this fictive war and is the PC still capable of fighting or too old/ injured/ magically drooling to participate in the battles. If still alive then ofc the next question would be if the PC approves of the war(not likely) and wich race he is.

    ofcourse the reason why the war starts and who is starting it is very importend so it Need to be specified to make more detailed assumptions but here some examples with interesting feat:*

    • PC is charr and joins the pro war anti human faction cuz of the oath sworn to the shinging blade wich may or may not be still intact (temporary death in PoF) wicjh could deal a huge blow against human Morales.
    • PC is charr but against the war ant takes Opposition to the orders of the high Legion. this would cause quit a ruckus for the charr
    • PC is charr against the legions reasoning for the war and joins the human side. this would definetly have an even heavier Impact

    • PC is Human but dont join any side only try to calm both sides down

    • PC is Human and joins the humans cuz disapproves the charr reasons - could cause some stir cuz some ex pact soldiers in the Legion might not want to fight the PC
    • PC is human and joins the charr cuz dissapproves human reasons -> fatal blow against the human side

    *human side considered as kryta

    Nah, the Commander will be a relic of the past from this point on. If the Commander failed to prevent the war from happening, that means he already lost his voice and they no longer respect his opinion. Nobody would want his counsel knowing fully well that the Commander don't want the war in the first place. The race of the Commander will not change this.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:

    most interesting of all would be the Trouble the orders and the pact would face in case of a war between humans and charr because a good part of the pact are charr soldiers and not all of em are gladium who were cast out from the high legions. there are some who are ordered to join an order for one reason or another like the charr PC himself or that kitty in "the ghosts of ascalon" wich Name i forgot (sorry)

    I think you mean Ember. She was commanded by Almorra from the Vigil, not from the High Legion.

    She joined on the Ash Legion's instructions. (Should be page 223, if you have a copy handy.) The Imperator wanted a reliable informant to keep an eye on what the Vigil was up to.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:

    most interesting of all would be the Trouble the orders and the pact would face in case of a war between humans and charr because a good part of the pact are charr soldiers and not all of em are gladium who were cast out from the high legions. there are some who are ordered to join an order for one reason or another like the charr PC himself or that kitty in "the ghosts of ascalon" wich Name i forgot (sorry)

    I think you mean Ember. She was commanded by Almorra from the Vigil, not from the High Legion.

    She joined on the Ash Legion's instructions. (Should be page 223, if you have a copy handy.) The Imperator wanted a reliable informant to keep an eye on what the Vigil was up to.

    My recollection failed me. Thanks. Which also reminds me that Almorra no longer have a warband.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Asura: would probably give weapons and other supplies to the humans in exchange for economic benefits / dependence
    Centaurs: would continue their war against the humans, whether or not they'd join forces with the charr however is questionable
    the other races: would stay neutral unless provoked

  • @Tails.9372 said:
    Asura: would probably give weapons and other supplies to the humans in exchange for economic benefits / dependence
    Centaurs: would continue their war against the humans, whether or not they'd join forces with the charr however is questionable
    the other races: would stay neutral unless provoked

    Asura are likely to curry favour with both parties. Having no loyalty to either human nor charr, they'd prop up the losing side to sell goods, services and war bonds.
    Norn are likely to fight on all sides for their own reasons: Olaf Hammerhand joins Kryta, his rival Fritjof Anvilfinger joins the charr to try and battle Olaf. The rest of the fighting is just part of the epic adventure.
    Lion's Arch tries to mediate between the warring parties and so do the Orders. The priory will send letters and do diplomatic reasoning, the Vigil will set up neutral grounds and protect civilians from becoming collateral, Whispers might try to sabotage the assaulting armies and take out warmongers on both sides, if necessary.
    Sylvari, like the norn will likely be present on all sides. Charr have them, humans have them, orders have them. They'll be excited, but also worried about peace.

    With all the entanglement between Kryta and the Legions, this would be an embarrassment of a war. Crossing the Shiverpeaks would be full of accidents for all sides involved, the orders insist on being neutral grounds, Lion's Arch is neutral, secret maneuvers are impossible, because Whispers has operatives everywhere, and since many commanders likely know each other from the Zhaitan campaign, this will not be a slaughter, like 250 years ago, but there are likely rules in place. Prisoners will be exchanged, morale will not be what it used to be on either human and charr side and unpopular leaders risk getting Rytlock Brimstone'd by their ambitious underlings. What a slog. And for what little gain? The Legions can only reasonably grab Ebonhawke. Having Shiverpeak enclaves would be a logistical nightmare. The humans could demand more of Ascalon, which is currently plagued by many issues and charr retaliation would likely drive them back into the gates of Ebonhawke.
    This would be the Battles of Isonzo all over again. But up to eleven! After the umpteenth failed offensive the leaders might already be thinking about making a truce. The charr might discover acetylsalicylic acid, just to have something to help against the headache. They would later export that to the humans, so their leaders would add citrus to that mix. Then they'd call a peace, having defeated not their intended enemy, but pains and inflammations. The asura might end up buying tons of the stuff to treat their own headaches, too, while Kryta trains a new cadre of capable officers, while the legions introduce mandatory leadership courses for anyone, who rises above the rank of legionnaire.

  • @Castigator.3470 said:
    With all the entanglement between Kryta and the Legions, this would be an embarrassment of a war. Crossing the Shiverpeaks would be full of accidents for all sides involved, the orders insist on being neutral grounds, Lion's Arch is neutral, secret maneuvers are impossible, because Whispers has operatives everywhere, and since many commanders likely know each other from the Zhaitan campaign, this will not be a slaughter, like 250 years ago, but there are likely rules in place. Prisoners will be exchanged, morale will not be what it used to be on either human and charr side and unpopular leaders risk getting Rytlock Brimstone'd by their ambitious underlings. What a slog. And for what little gain? The Legions can only reasonably grab Ebonhawke. Having Shiverpeak enclaves would be a logistical nightmare. The humans could demand more of Ascalon, which is currently plagued by many issues and charr retaliation would likely drive them back into the gates of Ebonhawke.

    If the Charr-Human war happen, the first human settlement to fall is the Ebonhawke. Strategically, humans can attack the Charr from behind. So to secure their rear, the Charr will put Ebonhawke under siege and the goal is to disable the Asura gate or use it to attack Divinity's Reach directly. If the Char failed to secure the Gate, they will be fighting two fronts and that's not strategically wise. The Shiverpeaks is a natural barrier against invasion, so mountain terrain would be enough to delay any advancing army while they're sieging Ebonhawke. The Ash Legion can set up camps in the Shiverpeaks to conduct guerilla warfare to further delay any advancing army.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Good points on the objectives and strategical value of the Shiverpeaks.

    Yes, but after Ebonhawke is taken, what is there to gain for the Legions? After that Iron Blood and Ash have conquered all of Ascalon and crossing the Shiverpeaks with an offensive force is likely to make you as famous as Luigi Cadorna. This goes for both humans and charr. After Ebonhawke falls, the war is effectively over.

    Unless you get a commander on either side who can either circumvent the Shiverpeaks, or get through against all expectation and with enough remaining strength to do something on the other side, while a supply route has to be established. That supply route will be harassed by norn screaming:"Fritjof, where are you hiding!?" or "Olaf, come out to play!!", while things tend to go missing, mountain passes experiences sudden avalanches, dredge will throw their sound cannons into the mix, skritt will steal shinies, grawls will do something annoying when you least expect it and when you finally cross the mountains, you are greeted by angry charr or angry humans.

    And when you get past that you can try to take two of the most fortified places on Tyria: A massively walled and tiered city with a bubble shield, which can spawn mesmer portals, or an iron fortress, which has walls that can bounce projectiles, so trebuchets and old cannons do nothing, and which has so much artillery that it can rain shells on any attacker.
    If it was one side against the other with no outside interference, the charr might win this, but this is not the time where no interference can be expected. Now, humans probably couldn't win either without using some searing tier atrocity, and Jennah isn't stupid, the moment humanity loses its allies is the moment everything goes down the drain for them.

    And even a charr victory wouldn't be all it's cracked up to be. What if the charr west of the Shiverpeaks decide to become independent and create a new state? Rise of the Wood Legion? They'd effectively create a more dangerous Kryta.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Good points on the objectives and strategical value of the Shiverpeaks.

    Yes, but after Ebonhawke is taken, what is there to gain for the Legions? After that Iron Blood and Ash have conquered all of Ascalon and crossing the Shiverpeaks with an offensive force is likely to make you as famous as Luigi Cadorna. This goes for both humans and charr. After Ebonhawke falls, the war is effectively over.

    I agree. The fall of Ebonhawke practically would end the war with a human surrender. However, Ebonhawke had stood there for hundred of years repelling the Charr, so I doubt it would be an easy campaign.

    Unless you get a commander on either side who can either circumvent the Shiverpeaks, or get through against all expectation and with enough remaining strength to do something on the other side, while a supply route has to be established. That supply route will be harassed by norn screaming:"Fritjof, where are you hiding!?" or "Olaf, come out to play!!", while things tend to go missing, mountain passes experiences sudden avalanches, dredge will throw their sound cannons into the mix, skritt will steal shinies, grawls will do something annoying when you least expect it and when you finally cross the mountains, you are greeted by angry charr or angry humans.

    Yeah it won't be easy crossing the Shiverpeak. Not to mention, each side can deploy a squad to engage in guerilla tactics. I would imagine that leading an army through the Shiverpeaks would end up like Hannibal's folly where he lost almost half of his army. Airships are out of the question since they are slow and easy to shoot down. So yes, they'll have to do it on foot.

    And when you get past that you can try to take two of the most fortified places on Tyria: A massively walled and tiered city with a bubble shield, which can spawn mesmer portals, or an iron fortress, which has walls that can bounce projectiles, so trebuchets and old cannons do nothing, and which has so much artillery that it can rain shells on any attacker.

    Wouldn't that be a sight. Unless each side has a way to take those defenses down, I doubt they will start the march through the Shiverpeak.

    If it was one side against the other with no outside interference, the charr might win this, but this is not the time where no interference can be expected. Now, humans probably couldn't win either without using some searing tier atrocity, and Jennah isn't stupid, the moment humanity loses its allies is the moment everything goes down the drain for them.

    Jenna and Anise are two powerful Mesmers and we have not seen their full power, so I would not count the human out that easily. If the Charr attacks, the human has the homefield advantage and any Charr that made it to the west side of the mountain would easily be cut off.

    And even a charr victory wouldn't be all it's cracked up to be. What if the charr west of the Shiverpeaks decide to become independent and create a new state? Rise of the Wood Legion? They'd effectively create a more dangerous Kryta.

    Yes, the possibility for an epic story is endless. lol @ Wood Legions. I'm sure they will pick a better name like the Olmakhan.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side?

    Depends on which one rocked the boat first.

    We have a good thing going right now. It'd be stupid for either side to screw with that status quo and whoever did so would be the one at fault. In terms of all out war though, humans really can't field the numbers charr can anymore.

    Depending on racial sympathies however, they'd probably get help from most of the other races if they weren't the ones who initiated the conflict. Maybe even from other charr legions such as Iron or Ash if it was Blood that went rouge.

    Blood has a potential radical element but that doesn't seem to have manifested in any significant way beyond grumpy old war cat survived the wars and hates those kitten commies mice.

    If they wanted to build into the idea of Bangar being an extremist he could have supported the renegades, but that doesn't come to bear in any meaningful way unlike how the Krytan bandits obviously had a benefactor.

    If it was humans that decided to initiate conflict unprovoked, it would be over and fairly decisive. With Caudecus out of the picture and the White Mantle broken, theres no serious radical element left on the human side to stir up trouble.

    The separatists are few and without leadership and Bangar hasn't shown signs of being a calculating sneaky radical and such schemes don't really fit the modus operandi of the Blood Legion at any rate.

    Everyone is well aware of Bangar's distaste for humanity as is the case with most charr. They tend to wear their hearts on their sleeve. They like you or they don't and they're not going to pretend one way or the other.

    As it stands while the Blood Legion Imperator has personal hang ups with humans, it's not enough to drive him to do stupid things as of writing.

    The story could easily be bent to introduce crazy (ley line sickness, flame legion coup, etc) but right now he seems more of a conservative old school type of charr as opposed to full on genocidal war machine.

    Any organized major hostility could change all of that of course (charr at war are quite vicious) but at present it seems theres a lasting calm and as the new generation comes in and we all make nice with each other, a lasting peace can be achieved.

    One good thing of world ending events like Elder Dragons is they can bring about cooperation like that. Charr bond best in combat and combat against an apocalyptic foe should prove quite the bonding experience.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    Rytlock would Domiante and become King of Tyria

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

    I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

    It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

    I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Royal_Engineer_Siroa

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    About crossing the shiverpeaks...we now have flying battleships, it'd be easy for either side to drop armies directly on each other capital

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2019

    I'm Human from Ascalonian descendancy and I haven't forgotten about our history.
    I would love to drive the Charr out of Ascalon and bring peace to the Human spirits there.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:
    I'm Human from Ascalonian descendancy and I haven't forgotten about our history.
    I would love to drive the Charr out of Ascalon and bring peace to the Human spirits there.

    But driving Charrs out won't fix the Ghost problem. They will fight against the humans, they can't recognize who is who. Only way to solve Ghosts problem is connected with Sohothin, which is in Charr hands (paws?)

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2019

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:
    I'm Human from Ascalonian descendancy and I haven't forgotten about our history.
    I would love to drive the Charr out of Ascalon and bring peace to the Human spirits there.

    But driving Charrs out won't fix the Ghost problem. They will fight against the humans, they can't recognize who is who. Only way to solve Ghosts problem is connected with Sohothin, which is in Charr hands (paws?)

    To you, these ghosts are a problem. To me, these are the spirits of my forefathers.
    These spirits will find peace one their land is restored.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited March 11, 2019

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:
    I'm Human from Ascalonian descendancy and I haven't forgotten about our history.
    I would love to drive the Charr out of Ascalon and bring peace to the Human spirits there.

    But driving Charrs out won't fix the Ghost problem. They will fight against the humans, they can't recognize who is who. Only way to solve Ghosts problem is connected with Sohothin, which is in Charr hands (paws?)

    To you, these ghosts are a problem. To me, these are the spirits of my forefathers.
    These spirits will find peace one their land is restored.

    I mean... They have a problem. Suffering the same day for this whole time, only because of mad King. And I dont think this will end with restoring a land, it's a way to undone the curse in the way king would like to undone it... If it will undone it. He wanted this land for Ascalonians (humans were divided) who are now ghosts. I suppose that event if someone reclaim Ascalon from Charrs, it will end with ghosts protecting the land from other live beings, cause they aren't those for who deserve this land by the curse... Maybe it's different, i'm not 100℅ sure
    But i'm sure of two things. You shouldn't make anyone suffer for not their fault to try to undone someone else suffering, and it's a bad idea to trust a ghost of someone who was mad :D
    In my opinion, more persons/characters should focus to resolve ghost problem (problem with ghost and problem the ghost have), cause event if you want take Ascalon from Charrs, you don't want to deal with ghosts destroying your supply lines. Event if they do same to enemy supply lines, in this situation, your enemy is probably better prepared, because they had to deal with those ghosts for a long time.
    And from other side, making ghosts free from curse is just morally a good thing

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

    I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

    It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

    I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Royal_Engineer_Siroa

    Note: "She is one of the creators of the new Watchknight Mk II model"

    Who's the others?

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

    I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

    It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

    I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Royal_Engineer_Siroa

    Note: "She is one of the creators of the new Watchknight Mk II model"

    Who's the others?

    Does it matter at this point?
    She surely has access to blueprints as result of being part of the project team, this shows how humans can adapt and acquire new knowledge as necessary

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

    I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

    It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

    I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Royal_Engineer_Siroa

    Note: "She is one of the creators of the new Watchknight Mk II model"

    Who's the others?

    So, humans do not have the capacity to build the Watchknights, but they can improve them? I feel like there has to be a fairly intimate understanding of a technology in order to improve said technology.

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

    I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

    It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

    I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

    you mean the engineer you can meet in the Queen's Gauntlet arena? And talk to about the watch knights?

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:
    About crossing the shiverpeaks...we now have flying battleships, it'd be easy for either side to drop armies directly on each other capital

    flying air bags that pop if you look at them funny.

    Yeah... no.

  • Has noone realized in what great position Kryta is?

    After Caudecus' death:
    White Mantle/Bandits are no more
    Centaurs broken
    no dragons on their doors

    Compare that with Charr:
    ghosts still active
    brand very active
    flame legion somewhat active

    I wouldn't bet on the charr at all. They haven't fought anything major in the last 200 years, while Kryta has a lot of experience. Charr prowess in war and designing war machines was shown to be subpar by the simple fact that Ebonhawk stood the whole time.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Compare that with Charr:
    ghosts still active
    brand very active
    flame legion somewhat active

    No?
    Ghosts are less active than before. Brand after Shatterer death is much less active than before. Flame Legion lost their emperor and they are now a numerous individual groups, who possibly event fight witch each other for power
    Those Years ago, these problems were the cause why Charrs werent able to take Ebonhawke (still i douby they were going to take it- it was great shooting range). But now Legions dont have such a issues

    And Charrs wers in war with Ebonhawke, which was major. And that was no more than 10 years ago (to current story state). In term of tactics, tradition, training and equipment, I still think Ebonhawke have better army than Krytan with half-militia half-soldier seraphs.

    The last thing. Maybe ghosts, brand and flame legion would reduce charr offensive capabilities, but it would also make their land harder to take. Adding to this thing that fact the Charr society is build in ~90℅ by military trained persons, taking Ascalon from them would be as hard as conquering Russia.
    Taking over Kryta won't be easier. It's long distance and there are other problems on the way. Without improvement to strategies, tactics and politic propaganda, I think it's imposdoble for any side to win offensive war. And to conquer other race/specie land. Full genocide is not a possibility (unles conquered commit suicide and take his countrymens with him .-. Ascalon and Orr) and creating a puppet state is not satysfying for conqueror.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2019

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Compare that with Charr:
    ghosts still active
    brand very active
    flame legion somewhat active

    No?
    Ghosts are less active than before. Brand after Shatterer death is much less active than before. Flame Legion lost their emperor and they are now a numerous individual groups, who possibly event fight witch each other for power
    Those Years ago, these problems were the cause why Charrs werent able to take Ebonhawke (still i douby they were going to take it- it was great shooting range). But now Legions dont have such a issues

    Not... exactly. Granted, we haven't heard about most of these threads since 2014, but at that time:
    *A single crypt's worth of ghosts had been exorcised- granted, a crypt that was well positioned for an attack on one of the charr's key settlements, but so far as we know, ghost activity elsewhere hasn't been impacted at all. It is _possible_ that Rytlock's been repeating the ritual (while maintaining a firmer grip on his sword) during his off-time, but if so, we haven't heard anything about it.
    *The Shatterer was never the driving force behind the Brand- it patrolled one stretch of it, but the real risk was the slow expansion of the Brand, which was also occurring in areas that the Shatterer never touched, coupled with the difficulty in crossing the corruption to reach the now isolated areas of eastern Ascalon. I believe there was also mention of the Branded wandering out on occasion, although I don't have a source on hand for that. The death of the Shatterer (back in vanilla) may have eased the pressure on Steeleye Span and the rest of the Steppes stretch, but it wouldn't have changed the overall picture. Judging from what happened with Orr, even Kralk's death wouldn't make the problem go away, although it might halt the outward creep of the corruption. (The new brandstorms and rifts might be making thing worse now, if they extend that far north, but again, if it's happening, we haven't heard about it yet.)
    *Despite the losses we inflicted on the Flame Legion during vanilla, the last we heard, they were back to posing a credible threat of invading the Black Citadel. Either they've been rallying behind a new imperator, or at least on of the breakaway bands has amassed considerable power behind themselves.

    (In the interest of fairness, though, it's also worth noting that Kryta's threats haven't all been decisively dealt with either. The centaurs were left in a position to keep waging war, and the bandits have lost their central organization and access to the halls of power, but, to our knowledge, haven't actually been cleared out yet.)

    And Charrs wers in war with Ebonhawke, which was major. And that was no more than 10 years ago (to current story state). In term of tactics, tradition, training and equipment, I still think Ebonhawke have better army than Krytan with half-militia half-soldier seraphs.

    The Seraph were never half-militia, but I agree that Ebonhawke likely has the more hardened combatants.

    The last thing. Maybe ghosts, brand and flame legion would reduce charr offensive capabilities, but it would also make their land harder to take. Adding to this thing that fact the Charr society is build in ~90℅ by military trained persons, taking Ascalon from them would be as hard as conquering Russia.

    Fully agreed here.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.