If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side? - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side?

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  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2019

    The watchknights are covered by illusions, nothing else, but that scenery's actually not what I meant. Lots of ways to cut corners on props even without magic.

    Shoring up hundreds of feet of sewers, catacombs, and who knows what else, not to mention whatever instability caused the collapse in the first place?

    A massive, elaborate, multi-level arena, up to and including hanging cages designed to stand up to the fiercest magical punishment that the most talented competitors have to offer?

    Sacrificing an entire district's worth of productivity to what amounts to a monument to vanity?

    And, yes, a metal-and-glass structure rising dozens of feet into the air, hanging out over an immense drop?

    None of that comes cheap.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • humans have build huge ships of the line. That is 'engineering' at its finest. Humans have integrated elementalists and mesmers into their army/navy and use their skills to the fullest. In modern parlance 'combined weapons' and 'electronic/psychological warfare'. Humans have fought a war of attrition against white mantle and centaurs - and won. While the charr still haven't got anything done.

    Seriously, if the charr really decided to attack, they would a) have to fight huge storms blowing their airships back into the brand, b) swamps that would stop their tanks cold, and c) illusions which would make them kill each other. Blood legionaires in their stupid armor would be roasted by lightning strikes, ash would find out what a human noble lady really can do.

    Jennah was able to shield DR with a giant mesmer bubble. It would be funny to watch the mighty airships crash into that. On a second thought, scrap that. Airships are not mighty, they are fragile and easy to take down.

    Charr wouldn't stand a chance. Not with the white mantle/bandit problem solved. Also Charr need to cross a whole mountain range. Crossing mountains always favours the defender. Additionally those mountains are filled with people who probably wouldn't be too happy with all those charr stomping throught THEIR home, EATING THEIR animals. Norn are just one group. There are also those lovely, lovely jotun. Now charr apologists will point out that the jotun will be swept aside, since they are so scattered and low in numbers. This is correct. But doing so will use up ressources, reduce the charr numbers and take time. Time is not a friend of the charr in this scenario and losing your precious warmachines crossing hostile territory just to stumble into even more hostile territorry doesn't sound like the start of a successful campaign. That your supply lines run across those mountains still swarming with hostile natives, just doesn't make it any better.

    Last but not least, it is considered that to attack an equally equipped opponent successfully, you need to outnumber them 3:1. If you are lucky and take chances. To be on the save side, 5:1 or 10:1 is needed.

    So after crossing the mountains and having already lost most of their machines (because from all we can see in the game they are fragile, cumbersome and rather weak), and a good part of their supplies, with their supply lines stretched and under constant threat, they will run into a battle hardened army, fully capable of using warmachines and incorporating magic into their battle tactics, who had time to dug in and prepare AND has the advantage of short, secure supply lines.

    You know what that smells like? disaster.

    Ebonhawke is a prime example. Despite all their mighty machines and professionalism, the charr could not take down a SINGLE fortress that was pretty isolated for huge parts of its existance. They couldn't stop the caravans when the gate was down, they couldn't take the city when Kryta lost Lion's Arch.

    The charr love to talk big. But they haven't fought any real enemy since Ascalon/Orr. They couldn't deal with Ebonhawke, they couldn't deal with the Ascalonian Ghosts, all they could do was spouting insults and be incompetent in every regard.

    So if noone sides with the charr, they will be wiped. Asura and sylvari will be smart enough to figure out that after the humans, they will be next. They might stay neutral. But if they don't logic dictates they side with Kryta. Even if the majority of norn sides with the charr, there are still those who don't - which brings back the problem of armies crossing hostile mountains and fragile supply lines stretched to the breaking point.

    In short: if there ever will be a united charr force, I am sure its leader will be smart enough to figure it out. If the leader is desperate or stupid enough to attack, the charr problem will solve itself and Ascalon will be a human kingdom again.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Founding

    The Final Onslaught, quote: "But for every human that fell, a dozen charr lay dead before them."

    Hmmmmmm.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited April 11, 2019

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Founding

    The Final Onslaught, quote: "But for every human that fell, a dozen charr lay dead before them."

    Hmmmmmm.

    I would like to remind two facts

    • this book is written by humans
    • those humans were the elite of the elites, fighting against poorly equiped religious fanatics

    It does not have any comparison to the current situation. It was true during GW1 time, when charrs weren't even wearing metal armors and were led by shamans (it's like telling "german folks are stronger than russian folks/current germany is going to win against current russia, because of eastern front cacasualties", it's just untrue). Now, the chances in 1v1 combat/Legions vs Kryta war are just equal in base and can be changed by other factors than just race/species, because Tyria/GW2 story is about individuals/heroes, not about racial qualities ¯_(ツ)_/¯ No matter how strong both forces would be, I'm sure it will end with group of heroes changing the tide of war
    And about "The Founding" -if there would be converter "x humans are worth x charrs/asuras/sylvars/norns", it wouldn't make sense for player to be able to choose a specie of the commander, who starts as regular person who at end can one hand slay an armies of... Any specie. No matter of his own

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2019

    The historian who wrote that book was very honest and blunt about the civilians who were with the Vanguard, including telling how they first fled in terror at the mere sight of Charr.

    Also it wasn’t the elite of the elite. There were human civilians who took up arms in that battle. A baker and her son died on the frontlines.

    Apparently from what people say in this thread even “poorly equipped” Charr would be able to slaughter humans. Nor do we know what Legion they were from. It could have been Blood for all we know.

    The difference between them is not as great as people like to peddle. Charr and humans are if anything depicted as on par, it’s the norn that are greater than either of them by far.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭

    I suppose those humans were led by Ebon Vanguard, who were just total dominators on battlefield, from what I know.
    And about "even “poorly equipped” Charr would be able to slaughter humans.", it just seems like bias. Or we are talking about slaughtering unarmed civilians. I'm not sure if there are sources telling about charr cannon fodder slaughtering regular ascalonian units. I'm sure we will find notes about single charrs who were capable to kill a lot, but it will be about heroes/champions (~important enemy in game), not about regular representative of the species. And we just know how strong compared to the regular persons can be in-lore strong individuals

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    The Ebon Vanguard themselves were a collection of Ascalonian refugees, many of them became soldiers out of revenge. They just got really good at setting traps to crush Charr units, more then likely Thackery applied the same training to those civilians as he did to every other refugee who went to the Shiverpeaks.

    Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions, if anything the sheer amount of magic they had made them better equipped to fight humans on even terms. Plus as we found out at Rin, Charr had a tendency to get slaughtered by Ascalonian units when they couldn't use the Flame as a crutch.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2019

    Friendly reminder that even after the Searing, Ascalon held out for decades and even managed to launch expeditions and forays into the charr homelands.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions

    During war time, Flame Legion units were probably better equipped than other Legions, but still, you can see how charr armor looked during gw1 on screens and compare it to gw2 armors or Ebon Vanguard armors. It's like nothing, and this is first clue to assume that Charrs those times weren't capable of manufacturing quality weapons and armors for most of the Army

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions

    During war time, Flame Legion units were probably better equipped than other Legions, but still, you can see how charr armor looked during gw1 on screens and compare it to gw2 armors or Ebon Vanguard armors. It's like nothing, and this is first clue to assume that Charrs those times weren't capable of manufacturing quality weapons and armors for most of the Army

    I would like to point out that the same humans that fought them were mostly leathers (looking at ascalonian guards) and some of the humans that went out and slaughtered them were wearing just cloth or in some cases naked tattooed skin...

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions

    During war time, Flame Legion units were probably better equipped than other Legions, but still, you can see how charr armor looked during gw1 on screens and compare it to gw2 armors or Ebon Vanguard armors. It's like nothing, and this is first clue to assume that Charrs those times weren't capable of manufacturing quality weapons and armors for most of the Army

    I would like to point out that the same humans that fought them were mostly leathers (looking at ascalonian guards) and some of the humans that went out and slaughtered them were wearing just cloth or in some cases naked tattooed skin...

    I konw it's true, I mostly wanted to point the advantage of armor of Ebon Vanguar and current charrs (and probably current humans, cause they are now better equiped too).
    In situation when charr and human don't have armors, and both of them have any kind of weapon, they are like in equal situation. Both can deal huge damage to each other, and who would win depends on other factors than natural strenghts. In GW world, I assume mostly on will to fight, skill and plot ^^
    It's clear that the charrs were less capable to fight than humans during GW1. There are just my speculations (based on what I have found in game and in forum), but i think it was because Shamans were just exploating their strategical advantage to win the war. Even if humans had better tactics, equipment and training, shamans were capable of throwing hordes of legions soldiers without worrying about losses, and finally win the war. I assume also that treatment of soldiers was one of the reasons of charr civil wars
    But yes, these are my speculations. From other side, to compare loses we can only use informations from previous wars, which applies to the present situation like speculation does :D We can assume something, but we don't have clear answers

  • Diak Atoli.2085Diak Atoli.2085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions

    During war time, Flame Legion units were probably better equipped than other Legions, but still, you can see how charr armor looked during gw1 on screens and compare it to gw2 armors or Ebon Vanguard armors. It's like nothing, and this is first clue to assume that Charrs those times weren't capable of manufacturing quality weapons and armors for most of the Army

    I would like to point out that the same humans that fought them were mostly leathers (looking at ascalonian guards) and some of the humans that went out and slaughtered them were wearing just cloth or in some cases naked tattooed skin...

    I konw it's true, I mostly wanted to point the advantage of armor of Ebon Vanguar and current charrs (and probably current humans, cause they are now better equiped too).
    In situation when charr and human don't have armors, and both of them have any kind of weapon, they are like in equal situation. Both can deal huge damage to each other, and who would win depends on other factors than natural strenghts. In GW world, I assume mostly on will to fight, skill and plot ^^

    Actually, in an 'all things being equal' scenario, a charr would be far more likely to win. Physically, the average charr has a massive advantage over the average human, standing at least half again as tall as a human with proportionally more muscle.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭

    @Diak Atoli.2085 said:

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Also i'm not sure why anyone would think Flame Legion, the literal head of the Charr Legions at the time would be poorly equipped or be less hardy then any of the other Charr Legions

    During war time, Flame Legion units were probably better equipped than other Legions, but still, you can see how charr armor looked during gw1 on screens and compare it to gw2 armors or Ebon Vanguard armors. It's like nothing, and this is first clue to assume that Charrs those times weren't capable of manufacturing quality weapons and armors for most of the Army

    I would like to point out that the same humans that fought them were mostly leathers (looking at ascalonian guards) and some of the humans that went out and slaughtered them were wearing just cloth or in some cases naked tattooed skin...

    I konw it's true, I mostly wanted to point the advantage of armor of Ebon Vanguar and current charrs (and probably current humans, cause they are now better equiped too).
    In situation when charr and human don't have armors, and both of them have any kind of weapon, they are like in equal situation. Both can deal huge damage to each other, and who would win depends on other factors than natural strenghts. In GW world, I assume mostly on will to fight, skill and plot ^^

    Actually, in an 'all things being equal' scenario, a charr would be far more likely to win. Physically, the average charr has a massive advantage over the average human, standing at least half again as tall as a human with proportionally more muscle.

    But from the other side, is much bigger target, easier to hit. And even if charr have more muscle, it have also proportionally more weight.
    Even if it makes charr hit harder, if you use any weapon which make momentum, strenght differences won't change a lot. If you need "5 units of strenght" to kill, the fact you have "6" or "15" dosn't make a direct difference in favour of one side :D

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    We have at least one example of a one on one fight between a charr and a human that lead to the human winning at the end of Ghosts of Ascalon. I cannot remember whether the charr was wounded or anything, though. Either way, humanity should have had a ton of disadvantage with the span of the Charr territory and numbers, but humanity still pushed them back. They had something, and it wasn't just Balthazar...

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited April 15, 2019

    In Ebonhawke sewage the same Charres have killed a human soldier (lieutanant) with a single hit .-. Riona was just really good soldier, so she was able to win against Ember easily (it was also a backstab :D Ember to the last moment thought Riona was on her side)
    And ultimately, Charrs made two human civilizations fall. But it seems to me that such scuffles do not make sense :p

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aracz.4702 said:
    In Ebonhawke sewage the same Charres have killed a human soldier (lieutanant) with a single hit .-. Riona was just really good soldier, so she was able to win against Ember easily (it was also a backstab :D Ember to the last moment thought Riona was on her side)
    And ultimately, Charrs made two human civilizations fall. But it seems to me that such scuffles do not make sense :p

    The four charr legions united against humanity (while having Abaddon's indirect help) while the three human kingdoms of Tyria were divided and warring amongst themselves. Kryta remains, Ebonhawke endures, and Orr has been resurfaced and cleansed. But humanity is increasingly getting their act together in the world and will likely experience a resurgence.

    I would also add regarding the earlier discussion of watchknights, that part of the quest Taimi sends you on in Sunspear's Refuge is presenting Aurene with a watchknight figure as an example of human ingenuity.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aracz.4702 said:
    In Ebonhawke sewage the same Charres have killed a human soldier (lieutanant) with a single hit .-. Riona was just really good soldier, so she was able to win against Ember easily (it was also a backstab :D Ember to the last moment thought Riona was on her side)
    And ultimately, Charrs made two human civilizations fall. But it seems to me that such scuffles do not make sense :p

    Other way round, actually. Ember got in the backstab at the start of the fight.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited April 20, 2019

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Aracz.4702 said:
    In Ebonhawke sewage the same Charres have killed a human soldier (lieutanant) with a single hit .-. Riona was just really good soldier, so she was able to win against Ember easily (it was also a backstab :D Ember to the last moment thought Riona was on her side)
    And ultimately, Charrs made two human civilizations fall. But it seems to me that such scuffles do not make sense :p

    Other way round, actually. Ember got in the backstab at the start of the fight.

    Riona backstabbed figuratively, Ember literally xd
    But I still dont know why Riona nad only a part of armor ripped off and had claw marks on arms. Like... What Ember did at beggining? Tried to take Riona's armor off? Throwed a rock? Aimed for arms with her claws or aimed for weapon? I know she may be tired after being a decoy, but the fact she just wasted her chance is kinda weird.
    Or maybe she was lost in situation and didn't wanted to kill Riona or risk loosing the Claw. I don't have acces to full book right now, so i can't check what they were talking about after dealing with Riona :s now I just dont remember

  • dodgerrule.8739dodgerrule.8739 Member ✭✭✭

    The humans would be killed off. I see more humans in Tyria then any other race even though humans are “going extinct”

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    No one ever said humans were going extinct, they have just fallen from their previous place of power. They have gone from 3 of the most powerful kingdoms on the continent to one singular kingdom harrassed constantly by centaurs. Their position is harsh compared to their much more glorious past, but they are still there, and don't plan on going anywhere anytime soon!

  • Reincarnatie.7254Reincarnatie.7254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2019

    If the Charr High Legions (Blood, Iron, Ash, and Flame) went to war against the last human nation in Tyria (the continent), then the Elder Dragons must be a non-issue, now. And even then, only rising tensions over some issue could ignite a war between the two polities.

    Let's say, perhaps, that tensions in Ascalon erupted into armed conflict between the nationalists on both sides. Queen Jennah and Imperator Smodur would try to ameliorate the situation, emboldening both the Ebonhawke Separatists and the charr Renegades due to perceived "racial betrayal". Kryta's crackdown on Ascalonian riots in both Ebonhawke, Rurikton, and Ascalon Settlement would show the charr Renegades that they could do whatever they wanted. However, Imperator Smodur would be under pressure from Queen Jennah to weed out charr renegade elements in Ascalon. Smodur would have the authority to do so, as Ascalon is traditionally the Iron Legion homeland. Unfortunately for peace, with the Elder Dragons gone and the Claw of the Khan-Ur, there would be no reason for the Ash Legion to support the peace treaty any longer and Imperator Malice Swordshadow would side with Imperator Bangar on the subject of reclaiming Southern Ascalon for the charr High Legions.

    Below are two scenarios of how either situation could result in war between Kryta and the four charr High Legions:

    1. If he does begin curbing Renegade activities, the Ebonhawke Separatists will spread propaganda through the Asura Gate into Divinity's Reach, Lion's Arch, and even Amnoon of a possibility of restoring Ascalon. Remnants of the White Mantle and bandits will join the Separatists in an attempt undermine Queen Jennah's peace with the charr and try to incite more violence with the Renegades. With support from the freed cities of Elona, Ebonhawke could destroy the Asura Gate from Divinity's Reach and declare sovereignty from the Kingdom of Kryta as a restored Ascalonian state, the Ascalonian Republic. The High Legions would see this as a prime opportunity to lay siege to Ebonhawke, as intel from Divinity's Reach would let them know about the sabotaged Asura-gate in Rurikton. However, a reluctant Smodur may take a page from Ash Legion handbooks and secretly use Iron Legion and sympathetic elements in the other legions (like Rytlock or Almorra of the Blood Legion) to stall an advance on southern Ascalon and Ebonhawke. The Free-Cities of Elona would aid their neighbours to the north through the Desert Gate.
    • a) Kryta, still dealing with the centaur war-herds to the north, would acknowledge Ebonhawke's (and by extension, Ascalon's) secession from Kryta and free up resources to put towards pushing back centaur raids in Queensdale and elsewhere in her dominion. In Elona, support for the new republic would begin to wane as the war with the charr waged on and Lion's Arch's merchants gained from increased exports to the Black Citadel. Kryta also gained through tarriffs imposed on goods passing through Gendarran Fields, as the Black Citadel shut-down operation of their Asura-gate to and from Lion's Arch for security purposes. The merchant's of Lion's Arch would consider using the Asura-gate to Hoelbrak, but the Asuran gate-fees and Hoelbrak's tariffs alone would make the venture unpalatably unprofitable. Using the trade route through Lornar's Pass, though incurring Hoelbrak's lower taxes, would be treacherous and the insurance premiums on those trade caravans would be as steep as the cliff-roads they would be forced to traverse.
    • b) If, then spurred on by her own people into action, Queen Jennah then had Kryta come to the aid of Ascalon and Elona--we would have our Second Human-Charr War. Through Kessex Hills, the Krytan Army would board warships in the Port of Garrenhof as Lion's Arch's Captain's Council would refuse so as to remain a neutral port of trade. Charr submarines would clash with Pact submarines on loan to Kryta from the Pact. Pact Marshal Logan Thackeray would be stripped of his title and put on trial at a military tribunal as a result of protest from both General Almorra Soulkeeper and Preceptor Halvora Snapdagger in regards to Pact resources being used in a geopolitical conflict. The Master of Whispers would manipulate internal Pact politics enough to get Logan Thackeray off with an extradition to Kryta. With Logan Thackeray's pending extradition to Kryta being delayed, the return of Pact submarines, and sea-routes to Elona prowled by charr submarines, the Krytan reinforcements would be slow to arrive in Ascalon, unless they disembarked and hoofed it through the Shiverpeaks and paid a head-tax/bribe to pass through Norn lands. Or, if the Krytan fleet successfully evaded the charr submarines and made it through the Scavenger's Causeway, the allied Port City of Amnoon awaited their arrival. Kryta would then march north up to the Desert Gate and reinforce the Ascalonian position at Ebonhawke. The war would reach a stalemate, then and there (until others began joining in on the war or a treaty was signed).
    1. If he doesn't and, instead, sides with the other High Legions: Queen Jennah will be forced to answer a charr invasion of Ebonhawke or lose the confidence of her people--first, and foremost, the Ascalonians of Ebonhawke, Rurikton, and Ascalon Settlement. Humans of Elonan and Canthan descent would probably not view such a response in a positive light, either. The Free-Cities of Elona would probably see the Krytan-Queen's response as a sign of weakness, as well.
    • a) Queen Jennah aids Ascalon. The gates of Ebonhawke would shut tight and Kryta would supply the garrison with enough resources through the Rurikton Asura-gate to withstand a charr siege, indefinitely. The Krytan Army could--with Knut Whitebear's permission, of course--march through the Shiverpeaks from Gendarran Fields, through Snowden Drifts and Wayfarer Foothills, to the Iron Legion's doorstep: Diessa Plateau. There, they could launch an assault on the Black Citadel and cut off the supply route. The High Legions would have to fall back to defend the Black Citadel and the Ascalonians and Elonans could then push north from Ebonhawke, from the Fields of Ruin, to the Blazeridge Steppes and the Plains of Ashford. From there, they could besiege the Black Citadel or join the Krytan forces on the Diessa front. The other races and factions would have little reason to intervene on the side of the charr High Legions, nor the side of the human nations. However, with the Black Citadel under siege, it is with hope that the charr High Legions would sue for peace--but not outright surrender. A treaty would probably be signed to cede southern Ascalon--perhaps, everything south of the shattered wall in the Blazeridge Steppes and the Plains of Ashford--except for the Black Citadel (or, they could keep the Plains of Ashford and the ruins of Rin).
    • b) If she did instead decide to avoid conflict and called a truce for new treaty terms in order to save the lives of both Krytan soldiers and civilians of all human nations, she would cede Ebonhawke and the lands of southern Ascalon (the Fields of Ruin) to the charr High Legions. This would be met with oppositional uproar and would have basically the same result as scenario 1a. However, acting quickly--now that she basically has the Ministry on-side--Queen Jennah would force the relocation of all Ascalonians living in Ebonhawke and southern Ascalon. Separatists and the Ebon Vanguard would revolt and whoever didn't evacuate/relocate to Kryta would escape to Elona through the Desert Gate. Ascalonian refugees would then follow the steps of the Ebon Falcons and flee through Blazeridge Gap and the tunnels leading to the Desert Highlands. After fighting off the oozes, they emerged from the tunnels of Wayment Steep and make their way to High Jump Ranch. There, they are assisted by the descendants of Ascalonians. Some settle here, weary of the months-long trek, while others continue on to Makali Outpost, Kweli Village, the grand Temple of Kormir, and Amnoon--forming ethnic enclaves along the way. Wade Samuelsson and other Commanders of the Ebon Vanguard create a government-in-exile called the Republic of Ascalon to work for the return of Ebonhawke and southern Ascalon, with the ultimate goal of reclaiming all of Ascalon in the name of a sovereign republic. Ebonhawke is now a ghost-town--deserted. However, Queen Jennah keeps the gates shut until the new treaty is signed and works to keep the architecture of Ebonhawke preserved. The Imperators of Blood and Flame are annoyed, but agree to the terms as these are lands are under Iron Legion's jurisdiction, anyway. There would be peace, for a time--until each Imperator drew up designs for the rest of Kryta in separate attempts to gain enough clout to claim the title of the Khan-Ur. But maybe one of them would first clear out the ogres from the Blazeridges to gain the title of Khan-Ur before declaring war on Kryta or Elona.
    1. Smodur, Malice, Rytlock or even Bottica claims the Claw of the Khan-Ur and unites the High Legions to forge peace with the humans. If either Smodur, Malice, or Rytlock become Khan-Ur, the Flame Legion would be pretty much be demolished. If Boticca became Khan-Ur, the Flame Legion will change greatly--none of that sexism and the High Legions would once again accept spellcasting on the battlefield. Not sure what "great act" any of the four would have to do to gain the loyalty of the four high Legions, though. The last (and, so far, only) Khan-Ur was from the Gold/Flame Legion and he conquered what is now known as the Blood Legion homelands and then Ascalon before it was called that or the "Iron Legion homelands".

    Now for the different factions:

    • Krait = neither; too preoccupied with enslaving and sacrificing.
    • Harpies = neither; the matriarch's are too preoccupied.
    • Choya = neither; unable to communicate in New Krytan and, like the grawl, are too tribal.
    • Centaur Alliance = broken by the Krytan-Iron Legion Alliance. Modniir, Tamini, and Harathi are now separate tribes. The Modniir scattered back into Far-Shiverpeaks and the Harathi into the Woodland Cascades and Northern Maguuma. The Tamini have returned to their nomadic roots and joined the peaceful Maguuma tribe who are descended from the Harathi.
    • Giant = neither; very few left.
    • Jotun = neither; their society is too fractured and culture too fragmented.
    • Ettin = neither; too tribal.
    • Trolls = neither; not interested and are tribal.
    • Ogres = neither--generational grudges remain in most kraals against the charr and humans of Ascalon who took their ancestral lands from them.
    • Grawl = neither; would have to be recruited on a tribe-by-tribe basis.
    • Skritt = neither; too disorganised and confused when they scatter outside their Scratch.
    • Hylek Blue-Green-Yellow-Red = neither; still rebuilding after the Fall of Zhaitan.
    • Hylek Itzel-Nuhoch = neither; too far to the west, relatively peaceful, and still rebuilding after the Fall of Mordremoth.
    • Hylek Coztic = neither; dislike outsiders.
    • Hylek Heket = neither; still rebuilding after the Fall of Joko.
    • Quaggan = neither; pacifists rebuilding in the north with the Kodan after the Fall of Jormag and in the southern ocean after the Fall of Steebubbles.
    • Kodan = neither; still rebuilding with the Quaggan after the Fall of Jormag.
    • Tengu = neither; still behind their walls after the Fall of Primordus and rebuilding in the Maguuma Jungle after the Fall of Mordremoth.
    • Largos = neither or both, as assassins.
    • Dwarves = neither.
    • Forgotten = if any are left, they would join the humans in honour of the the Human Gods.
    • Djinn = neither.
    • Dredge = neither; but would probably use the aftermath of the Second Human-Charr War as a pretext to invade the surface world--perhaps the Asura have similar designs.
    • Norn = neither or both. Only would join for glorious battles as mercenaries.
    • Sylvari Dreamers = neither or both. Like the norn, would join either side for the experience as mercenaries.
    • Sylvari Soundless = neither. Want nothing to do with the Dream or Nightmare, or non-Sylvari--especially after the Mordremoth fiasco and its wake of anti-sylvari sentiment.
    • Sylvari Courtiers = neither or both (as mercenaries). Whichever spreads more bad feels into the Dream of Dreams. Not sure if Duchess Chrysanthea becomes the court's Grand Duchess after HoT or if she thinks differently from Cadeyrn and Faolain.
    • Asuran Collegiate = neither, but profits off the war (Asura-gate usage-fees, weapons-trading, etc.).
    • Asuran Inquest = neither, maybe helping the bandits/White Mantle in Ascalon, but also profiting off the bloodshed.
    • Captain's Council of Lion's Arch = neither; war is good for profiteering if you aren't involved.
    • Asuran Consortium = neither; like the three above, will profit off of the Human-Charr conflict.
    • Aetherblades = neither, or both--whoever pays the most.
    • Assorted Tyrian Pirates = neither, or both.
    • Corsairs = neither, or hoping Elona hires them as privateers/mercenaries.
    • Toxic Alliance = neither.
    • Molten Alliance = neither, or charr High Legions depending on what the High Legions can offer the Moletariat.

    | Aivreanh - Spring - Firebrand | Lydaeia - Summer - Soulbeast | Éanhréina - Autumn - Tempest | Miaera - Winter - Spellbreaker | Ixyrra - Statics - Inventor | Ymrii - Synergetics - Reaper | Jeide Luen - Noble - Daredevil | Nayerlu Vespertine - Ash - Herald | Hrijn Eivorsdottir - Raven - Mirage |

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭

    @Reincarnatie.7254 said:
    If the Charr High Legions (Blood, Iron, Ash, and Flame)

    Flame is not a High Legion. They don't get that honor. It's a fallen legion in disrepute.

  • adormtil.1605adormtil.1605 Member ✭✭

    How much of the total charr population is in the flame legion? For an fallen legion they seem to be everywhere.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭

    @adormtil.1605 said:
    How much of the total charr population is in the flame legion? For an fallen legion they seem to be everywhere.

    Every modern charr has it's origins from the original four children of the Khan-Ur. So a quarter at their best. Though they manage to hold territory in Fireheart Rise, they're not doing so well these days and we've killed their current god-imperator and nothings been said of a replacement.

    The Flame Legion is in shambles and will probably be cleaned out before the end of this generation.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:
    The Flame Legion is in shambles and will probably be cleaned out before the end of this generation.

    What GW1 players said about the White Mantle.

  • adormtil.1605adormtil.1605 Member ✭✭

    And > @Genesis.8572 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:
    The Flame Legion is in shambles and will probably be cleaned out before the end of this generation.

    What GW1 players said about the White Mantle.

    Yeah they where so wrong. But then again give everyone an couple hundreds years and they can recover.

  • @Aracz.4702 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Aracz.4702 said:
    In Ebonhawke sewage the same Charres have killed a human soldier (lieutanant) with a single hit .-. Riona was just really good soldier, so she was able to win against Ember easily (it was also a backstab :D Ember to the last moment thought Riona was on her side)
    And ultimately, Charrs made two human civilizations fall. But it seems to me that such scuffles do not make sense :p

    Other way round, actually. Ember got in the backstab at the start of the fight.

    Riona backstabbed figuratively, Ember literally xd
    But I still dont know why Riona nad only a part of armor ripped off and had claw marks on arms. Like... What Ember did at beggining? Tried to take Riona's armor off? Throwed a rock? Aimed for arms with her claws or aimed for weapon? I know she may be tired after being a decoy, but the fact she just wasted her chance is kinda weird.
    Or maybe she was lost in situation and didn't wanted to kill Riona or risk loosing the Claw. I don't have acces to full book right now, so i can't check what they were talking about after dealing with Riona :s now I just dont remember

    most of Riona's wounds came from her lack of experience with the Claw. She constantly cut herself - and still took down Ember.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Aracz.4702 said:
    In Ebonhawke sewage the same Charres have killed a human soldier (lieutanant) with a single hit .-. Riona was just really good soldier, so she was able to win against Ember easily (it was also a backstab :D Ember to the last moment thought Riona was on her side)
    And ultimately, Charrs made two human civilizations fall. But it seems to me that such scuffles do not make sense :p

    Other way round, actually. Ember got in the backstab at the start of the fight.

    Riona backstabbed figuratively, Ember literally xd
    But I still dont know why Riona nad only a part of armor ripped off and had claw marks on arms. Like... What Ember did at beggining? Tried to take Riona's armor off? Throwed a rock? Aimed for arms with her claws or aimed for weapon? I know she may be tired after being a decoy, but the fact she just wasted her chance is kinda weird.
    Or maybe she was lost in situation and didn't wanted to kill Riona or risk loosing the Claw. I don't have acces to full book right now, so i can't check what they were talking about after dealing with Riona :s now I just dont remember

    most of Riona's wounds came from her lack of experience with the Claw

    This is what Im talking about - it's mentioned that Ember striked first, but Riona dont have any dangerous wound. I suppose it's because Ember didn't wanted to kill her. If she would want to kill her, Riona would end with throat split open like Vanguard before (or she was really to tired, otherwise, it's just don't make sense)
    If we want to judge which race have better characteristics (and game shows that they didn't matter, everyone have same possibilities), we shouldn't use just one example (earlier I have mentionet another one).
    But I think it's topic for other discussion

  • well, she ripped Riona's armor away... so she really did try to kill her.

    But: Riona was more or less fresh, while Ember had been chased by ghosts for ages.

  • Telwyn.1630Telwyn.1630 Member ✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019

    Came up with the idea where my male human ascalanion character Tarwin while he was on his way to Ascalon to do what he could to stop the war, he fakes his death in what looks like a renegade charr ambush attack that was real enough but Tarwin won the fight with the help of only a few friends who were with him plans to fake his death which may be enough to halt the war as Tarwin being possibly killed for trying to stop the war would put the charr who tried to inciting the war with Ascalon in a very bad spotlight, and would get everyone including the charr who see him as a friend too see what the war will cost if it goes on long enough besides soldiers and civilians heroes will die fighting a senseless war to try and finish off the Ascalonians.
    Many charr in the legions Lion arch the Olkamakan and in the orders of Tyria hail Tarwin as a hero and a friend for aiding the legions, added he help defeat the elder dragons for Tarwin to be killed unexpectedly by hostile charr would shatter the idea of victory at any cost, if a hero of Tyria dying for the sake of defeating the humans of ascalon is the cost to pay for many charr it is not worth it.

    Tarwin may if no one even finds out he is alive after the war is possibly stopped and a real peace treaty is signed either choose to disappear and let the world believe he is dead so he can at last finally rest and make his own way in the world. Or during the chaos mess of Tarwins fake death and everyone getting angry and protesting the charr who want war against Ascalon, Tarwin is able to heroically take down the hostile charr leaders who want the war to keep going with the friends who know he is alive, and the friends and allies find out in secret. With the war narrowly prevented everyone get the message that wars between nations for petty settling old scores of revenge cannot be fought without a high cost being paid. Tarwin explains his fake death was to show everyone what would happen if he was killed in a war started by the foolish who think just cause the elder dragons are now gone means any nation can start killing each other. Tarwin did not save the world so the nations and races could start wars against each other over petty dreams of conquest. So he choose the path that would help stop another war between Ascalon and the legions.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, thinking about it, the Charr have no reason to go to war with humans.

    Even if you pull a "But the elder dragons are gone!", the elder dragons were never a huge threat to Ascalon anyway. As Smodur said during the world summit, the flame legion are still a threat poking at the legions, just waiting for a weakness to be shown to exploit.

    The two big reasons the charr were wary to send forces to help the big push against Mordremoth was Flame legion and the ghosts. With the ghosts at Barradin's estate being removed from play, they felt secure enough to redirect forces without weakening the defenses.

  • EmmetOtter.8542EmmetOtter.8542 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    If Charr and human go to war, again, I personally would support the better paying side and I suspect that will be the human side.

    I think the Asura would officially remain neutral and unofficially sell weapons to both sides.
    Sylvari would be truly neutral
    Norn would side with humans.

    I think initially that the Charr, by being better prepared for war, would have the upper hand but once the Norn joined the human side it evens out.

  • Telwyn.1630Telwyn.1630 Member ✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    @EmmetOtter.8542 said:
    If Charr and human go to war, again, I personally would support the better paying side and I suspect that will be the human side.

    I think the Asura would officially remain neutral and unofficially sell weapons to both sides.
    Sylvari would be truly neutral
    Norn would side with humans.

    I think initially that the Charr, by being better prepared for war, would have the upper hand but once the Norn joined the human side it evens out.

    And all the charr who actually now repect humans and were in the orders after all why would they just return to the legions to fight the same humans they fought side by side with. The war would also effectively remove the idea that the legions intended to honor the peace treaty even if it was temporary many charr would not want to fight the humans and be stuck in another long bloody pointless siege on the Kingdom of Ascalon again.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    One thing I'd mention is also power to deploy forces. The Charr threats haven't left (as I said, brandstorm/brand is still very much active, the ghosts haven't left besides in one area, flame legion is still out there and considered a threat by Iron legion worthy of holding an army in reserve), but also we've heard of Krytan, Lion's Arch, Pact, and corsair airships. No charr ones yet.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2019

    It is safe to say that humans are currently weaker than Charr. It is highly unlikely for humans to attack Charr, but far more likely for the reverse.

    Avoiding real breaking mechanics, like asura gates (which are really a game convenience more than anything), Sylvari and Asura are left of all these debacles and do not have much militarily force to participate in any conflict. Ya the game tries to give them a bigger role, but they control tiny territory. Asura do have technology that seems superior to other races. But there is not an indication that gives them a military edge. It is highly unlikely either of them would participate in the war beside selling technology or resources to either side.

    on the other hand norn are entrenched in the middle of both humans and Charr. if humans declare war on Charr, their goal is presumably to obtain Ascalon. Human will probably have to go through norn territory. While norn do not seem to have a united government, this human incursion will likely be viewed as an invasion by the norn and will be faced retaliation. It is just not likely for the humans to be able to do so.

    If Charr declare war on humans, they will either want to acquire lands in Kryta or acquire Ebonhawke. Going to Kryta faces the same as above. For Ebonhawke does not offer anything and have no strategic advantage whatsoever. Also, it has been able to hold the Charr for 250 years. Even if the Charr can focus more forces to acquire it, it will be a long drawn and costly battle for? Race cleansing? It will be a loss both economically and politically for the Charr.

    More interestingly, Charr could interested in either Orr or some of Elona’s northern territory. Charr has direct access to the territory through Charr home lands and Ascalon. Northern elona does not have much military power. Also, not likely to cause direct interaction from most races. Even Kryta not likely to care much. Orr is more interesting dinner vast and strategic territory. Was human territory. Currently mostly empty. Sylvari have large pretense there. Charr would consider it a prime location to block access to them from the sea. A war for Orr would likely see a Sylvari, human alliance. Not sure who Asura would support. They probably would only care about selling technology.

    Also, while minor races would not factor much, Lion Arch would. It is technically independent, but also former human territory. It is likely to prefer a stats quo and would consider any military conquest by human or Charr to be unwanted aggression.

    Overall, as long as we have two elder dragons active, it is highly unlikely that any of the races or nations to go to war with each other.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    It is safe to say that humans are currently weaker than Charr. It is highly unlikely for humans to attack Charr, but far more likely for the reverse.

    Why? Charr are smart, they have seen the united armies at Thunderhead, they sent forth a peace offering first (even if it failed), and most importantly, the issues that held the Charr from wanting to go to the World Summit are entirely still in play (Flame Legion lurking, even if it's top leadership was wiped out and they are trying to replace those figures. Ghost armies in every location besides Barradin's estate). The brand is still active, and the ogre/troubles with other races do still exist. Frankly the Charr were assaulting Ebonhawke more to do something then to actually wage war. As somebody said, they apparently hinged their invasion of Kryta upon taking Ebonhawke first. Also, we know that Kryta now has an airship fleet alongside paratroopers and now that they have no backstabbers in government, the Seraph are once again at full strength without being constantly hamstrung to make Jennah look bad. It's also assumed with the war chief at Harathi Hinterlands dead and the white mantle's alliance with the centaurs broken (because the white mantle are eradicated), the Krytan military posistion is actually more secure then the Charr in Ascalon.

    Avoiding real breaking mechanics, like asura gates (which are really a game convenience more than anything), Sylvari and Asura are left of all these debacles and do not have much militarily force to participate in any conflict. Ya the game tries to give them a bigger role, but they control tiny territory. Asura do have technology that seems superior to other races. But there is not an indication that gives them a military edge. It is highly unlikely either of them would participate in the war beside selling technology or resources to either side.

    I think somewhere it was said that Asura wouldn't allow a race to use the asura gate to teleport an army into another city, but not sure. Asura do have golems and control the waypoint network, however both the Crown and Charr legions have good relations with them. Sylvari would probably remain neutral, but I see them easily siding and helping humanity if the Charr foolishly attack first, alongside most of the factions related to the Pact.

    on the other hand norn are entrenched in the middle of both humans and Charr. if humans declare war on Charr, their goal is presumably to obtain Ascalon. Human will probably have to go through norn territory. While norn do not seem to have a united government, this human incursion will likely be viewed as an invasion by the norn and will be faced retaliation. It is just not likely for the humans to be able to do so.

    I think humanity would use Ebonhawke as a staging ground before attempting to march and maintain logistics through the Shiverpeaks. Likewise, I don't see the Charr trying to mount a campaign across the shiverpeaks. Especially when you can find Charr in Black Citadel complaining about how it's tough to get supplies to the front-lines against the Flame Legion within Ascalon.

    If Charr declare war on humans, they will either want to acquire lands in Kryta or acquire Ebonhawke. Going to Kryta faces the same as above. For Ebonhawke does not offer anything and have no strategic advantage whatsoever. Also, it has been able to hold the Charr for 250 years. Even if the Charr can focus more forces to acquire it, it will be a long drawn and costly battle for? Race cleansing? It will be a loss both economically and politically for the Charr.

    Yet the Charr chose to continue to assault Ebonhawke for 200ish years instead of going across the Shiverpeaks and invading Kryta. Probably because if they did declare war and attempt to invade over the mountains, they'd have a long, stretched out supply line that'd be easy to raid (and possibly attacked by all sorts of other groups like Dredge, sons of svanir, etc). And humanity could easily mass an army in Ebonhawke/fields of ruin and brave the brand to attack. Also Kryta has airships so they'd be able to harass the Charr army.

    Also this assumes the Vigil and Lionguard don't get involved at all, since the Charr would be marching an army directly past several havens, as well as Vigil Keep.

    More interestingly, Charr could interested in either Orr or some of Elona’s northern territory. Charr has direct access to the territory through Charr home lands and Ascalon. Northern elona does not have much military power. Also, not likely to cause direct interaction from most races. Even Kryta not likely to care much. Orr is more interesting dinner vast and strategic territory. Was human territory. Currently mostly empty. Sylvari have large pretense there. Charr would consider it a prime location to block access to them from the sea. A war for Orr would likely see a Sylvari, human alliance. Not sure who Asura would support. They probably would only care about selling technology.

    Northern Elona has various factions populating it as well as the brand. Actually getting forces there would involve trying to bypass Ebonhawke or taking Ebonhawke in some manner.

    Orr is far from empty. It's a land plagued with Risen long after Zhaitan's death, has priory and Sylvari presence there (history/artifacts, and the Sylvari attempting to help heal the land), and even though the source of Orr is cleansed, the land itself is very slowly healing. Invading to take Orr would be incredibly stupid. Also means assaulting Pact forces working to clean up the Risen and taking the Pact fortress at Fort Trinity, which would bring the pact and allies down on the Charr.

    Also, while minor races would not factor much, Lion Arch would. It is technically independent, but also former human territory. It is likely to prefer a stats quo and would consider any military conquest by human or Charr to be unwanted aggression.

    Overall, as long as we have two elder dragons active, it is highly unlikely that any of the races or nations to go to war with each other.

    It's highly unlikely that the nations would go to war period. Unless the Charr or Kryta get massive leadership change for no reason (Remember, even if Smodur hasn't claimed the title, he still holds the Claw of the Khan-Ur in his office, a gift given to him by humans), they have no reason to go back to war. Both nations have resources, and what they lack they can easily get by trade through Lion's Arch or other means. Engaging in war would stretch resources out, and the Charr legions are forced to keep a strong face up at home to prevent the Flame Legion from surging at all.

    Plus the fact the commander is bound by Oath to not attack the Crown of Kryta, and if the commander turned against the Legions do you think the Pact or related/allied armies wouldn't follow?

  • Telwyn.1630Telwyn.1630 Member ✭✭
    edited June 10, 2019

    Unless foolish charr like Fume Brighteyes somehow becomes the Iron legion leader as she is bucking and claiming she will be( she wants to possibly get the war against humans back on) and dose it with Banger (who may use Fume just to strengthen himself and displace all the legions) their won't be a war unless some Fume replaces Smodur cause then I can see Fume Brighteys ending the peace and outriught not delcaring war yet but securing her power and forcing all charr who fought with humans to swear an oath of some sort to fight the humans of Ascalon and Kytra when she delcares war or they be kicked of the legions, and or punished and sent to the labor prisons for no reason, and all charr cubs who were suppose to be guests of honor in Ebonhawk and Divinity Reach well be taught that they well enter those cities as conquers not guests of the humans, which well leave all charr and cubs confused, and shocked why they are going from peace with humans to hostilities the road to war well see many charr in the legions facing persucatuion for working with humans, and not ready for war against them, and or for respecting humans, charr warbands will be divided and often shattered by arguments and the idea of warband won't be able to work together cause one charr may say ready war against humans is wrong or cause they respect the humans, another charr hates humans for nor reason or cause disagrees with teh other charr that it becomes a mess of no real unity that the legions face civil disorder and risk of both war with the humans and a civil war among themselves.
    If a war against humans and a civil war happens among the charr their is a high risk of the legions warbands ceasing to be seen as effective and unity wroth nothing I can see these foolish charr going survival of the fitness where they use each other and refuse to unit in the aftermath. Oh and picture how their be bitter upset charr asking why they do not have a Khan-ur why has the promised Khan ur not come and united the weaken legions like the first Khan ur and Kalla did? Simple the charr are themselves are at fault their rules and laws and how any charr can chanllege the Khan ur even if he or she is a real good leader keeps them from having a Khan ur. So many charr would be bitter that the Khan ur coming to unit them may as well been a lie or just was never going to happen and the charr legions are just doomed to never have the Khan ur cause their way of life keeps that from happening. It may be up to the pact commaders and heros to try and do what they can to get the charr to change the way of life of the legions so they can have a real Khan ur. Or the charr pact commander becomes the Khan ur even if he or she is not part of the bloodline.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    well char's eat asura, them being small meat. :open_mouth: so, asuran's would likely help the humans.
    sylvari are nature lovers, which may hate the char because chars kinda like kill nature through machinery; so they might likely choose humans, being the lesser of the two evil.
    the npcs in game, well they agro everything, but will probably like humans more, because humans.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • brenda.9723brenda.9723 Member ✭✭✭

    I think its is funny that a lot people seem to think that the norn would side with the humans XD. The norn dont like the queen and the rest of the human nobility. They dont like leaders who dont earn their position, but are born in a certain class. So I think it is unlikely that they will help Queen Jennah to stay in power.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @brenda.9723 said:
    I think its is funny that a lot people seem to think that the norn would side with the humans XD. The norn dont like the queen and the rest of the human nobility. They dont like leaders who dont earn their position, but are born in a certain class. So I think it is unlikely that they will help Queen Jennah to stay in power.

    Untrue. They didn't care for her at first because they felt she should've just gotten rid of the dissenters in the Ministry who were working against her.

    Now they she caused every single traitor minister to publicly reveal themselves and be arrested or killed, and also helped raise the shield around DR against the siege bombardment I'd bet the general viewpoint of her among Norn is higher.

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @brenda.9723 said:
    I think its is funny that a lot people seem to think that the norn would side with the humans XD. The norn dont like the queen and the rest of the human nobility. They dont like leaders who dont earn their position, but are born in a certain class. So I think it is unlikely that they will help Queen Jennah to stay in power.

    Untrue. They didn't care for her at first because they felt she should've just gotten rid of the dissenters in the Ministry who were working against her.

    Now they she caused every single traitor minister to publicly reveal themselves and be arrested or killed, and also helped raise the shield around DR against the siege bombardment I'd bet the general viewpoint of her among Norn is higher.

    I think that the bigger thing is that the individuality of the norn would keep the norn as a whole from joining either side. You would see individuals on either side and many staying neutral.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    I think at the beginning of gw2 story Charr and human are still at war (since ascalon-searing in gw1) as we negotiate the Peace as Lvl 30 (or 40?) quests.

    No one joined any side. Don’t see any Reason why this should be different in another war.

  • There has been 200 years of status quo where neither side was able to take ascendance over the other. However, let's see the recent events:

    • The human gods are gone. That alone shifts the balance heavily in favor of the charrs.
    • With the treaty, charr extremists are desperate to land that final victory. Also, after hundred years of propaganda aimed at fueling the military engine, the majority of charr civilian population is likely to see the treaty as a deal with the daemons.
    • The scarab plague has been rediscovered. A cheap, clean, bio, ecological solution to the human problem.
    • The elder dragons crisis is recessing. Asuras seem to have a solution to force Jormag and Primordus to cancel each other.
      Even to the pro-treaties, the writing should be on the wall. The Charrs have that unique opportunity to claim back their empire and start a golden age. And that might not last.

    As for who would join:

    • the centaurs, like the charrs, have had the humiliation of seeing their rightful territory taken away from them for the benefit of a weak race.
    • The sylvary could follow their centaur or human lineage. But ultimately ventari was a centaur.
    • A charr-dredge alliance has recently proven to be quiet successful.
    • The enquest might be cornerstone to the plan. The charr should make sure that they get handsomely rewarded for their collaboration. (Maybe even give them Divinity's Reach?).
    • The skritts are always handy to disseminate things like scarab eggs around. Just make sure to time the initial outbreak properly...
  • Is the scarab plague only human deadly?

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:
    There has been 200 years of status quo where neither side was able to take ascendance over the other. However, let's see the recent events:

    • The human gods are gone. That alone shifts the balance heavily in favor of the charrs.

    False, the human gods haven't done anything really in 200-300 years. Them officially being gone literally changes nothing. Hell, as we've seen, there are still very much active worshipers of Balthazar who continue to praise his (better) teachings.

    • With the treaty, charr extremists are desperate to land that final victory. Also, after hundred years of propaganda aimed at fueling the military engine, the majority of charr civilian population is likely to see the treaty as a deal with the daemons.

    The Charr are also brought up to follow orders. Orders say the war is over. Going against that is treason. Charr may not agree with the treaty, but they hate treason more then humans.

    • The scarab plague has been rediscovered. A cheap, clean, bio, ecological solution to the human problem.

    Scarab plague was briefly rediscovered, until it was eradicated by the ghost army lead by the Primeval Queens. All the Inquest labs researching it got destroyed by Joko when he went to reclaim it (besides the one we destroyed), all the further plague research was being done at Gandara, with the allied armies surrounded and blockaded, and then cleansed.

    • The elder dragons crisis is recessing. Asuras seem to have a solution to force Jormag and Primordus to cancel each other.

    The brand and brandstorm are very much still active and a concern to the Charr. The ghosts are still a major problem throughout Ascalon, just not as much the Black Citadel anymore. Flame Legion is strongly suspected to be gathering strength and waiting for an opening to exploit (As opposed to the popular belief of being defeated and shattered). Combo in hostile Ogre, Dredge, and Harpy groups throughout Ascalon, Iron legion is not in a state to be conducting invasions. The other Legions perhaps not either.

    One bit of dialogue in black Citadel was about how at times the Iron Legion can barely even supply their frontlines within Ascalon with ammo and weapons. How could they afford a supply train going across the entire Shiverpeaks? And Kryta has airships they can use.

    Even to the pro-treaties, the writing should be on the wall. The Charrs have that unique opportunity to claim back their empire and start a golden age. And that might not last.

    Claim back their empire... of Ascalon, which they already reclaimed besides one tiny corner, which is also the corner they've been sieging for literally 200+ years with zero progress, and the same corner they agreed to give up to the humans (that's also partially branded).

    I know it's personal RP, but once I thought of what my Iron Legion Engineer would think of the treaty/humans. And it was "Meh, we already reclaimed Ascalon, why should I care about Kryta? Our goal was Ascalon, we got it."

    As for who would join:

    • the centaurs, like the charrs, have had the humiliation of seeing their rightful territory taken away from them for the benefit of a weak race.

    The Centaurs were also forcibly brought into line by a singular warchief, who is now dead. They only got major pushes against humanity because traitors were purposefully sabotaging the Seraph's efforts. (Human tutorial literally happened because Caudecus completely withdrew his entire force that was supposed to be guarding the pass going to DR, and had framed the Seraph for killing the Warchief's family.

    • The sylvary could follow their centaur or human lineage. But ultimately ventari was a centaur.

    Ventari also taught peace and sought peace between humans and Centaurs.

    • A charr-dredge alliance has recently proven to be quiet successful.

    You mean the flame legion and dredge rebel alliance that was also stated both groups were, basically stated to be put to death the moment they tried to return to their home faction?

    • The enquest might be cornerstone to the plan. The charr should make sure that they get handsomely rewarded for their collaboration. (Maybe even give them Divinity's Reach?).

    Inquest don't work for anybody but themselves. The Charr aren't stupid. Look at the Asura gate to LA, the Charr have that entire bridge rigged with explosives just in case the Asura try ANYTHING.

    • The skritts are always handy to disseminate things like scarab eggs around. Just make sure to time the initial outbreak properly...

    Too bad those Scarab eggs are all destroyed huh?

  • False, the human gods haven't done anything really in 200-300 years. Them officially being gone literally changes nothing. Hell, as we've seen, there are still very much active worshipers of Balthazar who continue to praise his (better) teachings.

    >
    The core concept is: "technological advanced civilization vs civilization that rely on the strength of their god".
    It is the main excuse behind the fact that nation stuck in pre-renaissance era is able to keep up with a nation on the cups of industrial era.
    The point is, even after the gods start becoming distant, the humans didn't have to engage in technological race with the Charr to keep the Status Quo.
    Your remark would be a good starting point if you wanted to put number on the relative strength of gods and technology. But this is cherry picking. The status quo is the final result when every factors have been taken into account and every values have been assigned to every variables.
    Now what we know happened in the past years:

    • Kormir still had some presence, and we witness her go.
    • Balthazar still had some presence, and we witness him go.
      We have to assume that the presence of those two were enough to maintain the current balance between charrs and humans.
      Now, it is not excluded that the core concept of those two races gets a major retcon (new human racial?). But it hasn't been confirmed yet.

    The Charr are also brought up to follow orders. Orders say the war is over. Going against that is treason. Charr may not agree with the treaty, but they hate treason more then humans.

    >
    I was talking about the Charr civilians. Even in the most militarist society, the military can't account for more than 7%-8% of the global population (for economic reasons). It means that the civilians still have a very strong sway on political decisions.
    The charrs living in a fascistic society, the head of the state and the head of the military is pretty much the same thing, but it still has to please the general population.
    And having been fed hundreds of years of "our civilization is the only bastion of hope against the corrupted darkness that lie outside of our walls", I don't think the general population is ready to stomach the 180° that is the treaty.

    Scarab plague was briefly rediscovered, until it was eradicated by the ghost army lead by the Primeval Queens. All the Inquest labs researching it got destroyed by Joko when he went to reclaim it (besides the one we destroyed), all the further plague research was being done at Gandara, with the allied armies surrounded and blockaded, and then cleansed.

    Joko seems to be a very competent guy. If he said he destroyed everything, I'm sure we can fully trust him.
    That said, every major faction had a vested interest in securing a sample. For instance:

    • a extra option in their arsenal.
    • a bargaining coin.
    • a hot new item on the black market.
    • finding a cure or possible mitigation.
    • valuable medical results that could improve the future of medicine.

    It would be very unlikely that none of them succeeded.
    Besides, it's one of the "once the cat is out of the bag" case. The proof of concept has been brilliantly established, and now entomologist is the new hot profession. Why not start by studying that new elonian scarab mount that mysteriously surface shortly after the events? I heard races are organised in all parts of the world...

    Claim back their empire... of Ascalon, which they already reclaimed besides one tiny corner, which is also the corner they've been sieging for literally 200+ years with zero progress, and the same corner they agreed to give up to the humans (that's also partially branded).

    I know it's personal RP, but once I thought of what my Iron Legion Engineer would think of the treaty/humans. And it was "Meh, we already reclaimed Ascalon, why should I care about Kryta? Our goal was Ascalon, we got it."

    Keep in mind you are part of the elite of the elite. One that is in contact with the rest of the world and meaningfully engage with it. You acceeded that cast on your own merit and will probably stay in it until the end of your life; never meddling again with members of inferior casts.
    The average charr will have a very different view of the world, and often, the idealized view he has of the charr society will be the only thing that will keep him running and support the empire. He would probably push for spreading that light.

    Ventari also taught peace and sought peace between humans and Centaurs.

    Does that appear in the scriptures thou? Regardless, since before their birth, the Sylvaries associate centaurs with spiritual enlightment. If the centaurs were to chose a camp, that would probably tug the sylvaries in that direction.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    That first bit makes no sense, in no small part because humanity did not persist due to the strength of their gods but rather the strength of their magic. Sorcery, not godhood, is what tipped the scales of the war in the Charrs favor, with the power of Abaddon and the Flame Legion they were able to overcome the superior magical weapons at humanities disposal through events like the Searing and the power of the Titans. Ebonhawke did not stand because the Gods were their aiding them, they stood because Charr technology could not match the potency of a Searing Cauldron.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @adormtil.1605 said:
    Is the scarab plague only human deadly?

    Kind of. They only infest humans, which means their population should only be able to reach epidemic proportions in areas with dense human populations, but once they are hatched, the swarms will apparently kill and eat anyone. The charr would only be able to safely deploy it if they were willing to avoid Kryta/Ebonhawke for a few years afterwards.

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:

    • The scarab plague has been rediscovered. A cheap, clean, bio, ecological solution to the human problem.

    Scarab plague was briefly rediscovered, until it was eradicated by the ghost army lead by the Primeval Queens. All the Inquest labs researching it got destroyed by Joko when he went to reclaim it (besides the one we destroyed), all the further plague research was being done at Gandara, with the allied armies surrounded and blockaded, and then cleansed.

    • The skritts are always handy to disseminate things like scarab eggs around. Just make sure to time the initial outbreak properly...

    Too bad those Scarab eggs are all destroyed huh?

    I agree with you on your other points, but I'm with Adiabatik here. As relatively widely as the Plague was deployed- the ship, the entire Domain of Kourna front, the massive can of sardines in Gandara, and those are just what we hear about- I would find it very plausible if the devs decide later that a few of the beetles were overlooked.

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:

    I was talking about the Charr civilians. Even in the most militarist society, the military can't account for more than 7%-8% of the global population (for economic reasons). It means that the civilians still have a very strong sway on political decisions.
    The charrs living in a fascistic society, the head of the state and the head of the military is pretty much the same thing, but it still has to please the general population.
    And having been fed hundreds of years of "our civilization is the only bastion of hope against the corrupted darkness that lie outside of our walls", I don't think the general population is ready to stomach the 180° that is the treaty.

    There... aren't charr civilians. At least not the way you're thinking. Every charr in Legion lands gets brought up in a fahrar, with military discipline driven into them, and they live as a warband thereafter. The 'civilian' jobs are assigned to those warbands according to their abilities and the Legion's needs, just like the 'military' roles are. The craftsmen? Warbands. The ranchers and farmers? Warbands. The miners? Warbands. Pond maintenance? Yep, still warbands.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • There... aren't charr civilians. At least not the way you're thinking. Every charr in Legion lands gets brought up in a fahrar, with military discipline driven into them, and they live as a warband thereafter. The 'civilian' jobs are assigned to those warbands according to their abilities and the Legion's needs, just like the 'military' roles are. The craftsmen? Warbands. The ranchers and farmers? Warbands. The miners? Warbands. Pond maintenance? Yep, still warbands.

    I'm not positive it would work at the administrative level. Eck, even at the low rank of officer level, I think the whole thing would start to break appart.
    If military organisation were to extend to a whole state, we would probably end up with a bureaucracy of some kind. The army wouldn't be very low in the hierarchy, but it would definitively not be the top either; and it would be dependent on one of the many ministries.

    As a concrete example, who is in charge of the Iron citadel?

    • It is very likely that a permanent crew has been affected to it.
    • The three legions have probably given that crew special status (autonomy?) so it could litigate disputes between legions within the citadel.
    • The responsibility of that crew would be only maintenance and administration.
    • It would still need a special police force.
    • It's authority would probably extend to the surrounding area in order to supply the economy.

    I would say that, with time, it would quickly turn into a traditional civilian society.

  • You know an entire nation being militaristic is not so far fetched. The mongols basically had most of their men in the army. How do you think they managed to raise over 100K troops in Mongolia in the 1100 they can barely do it now. The population was very small there.
    But you do not have to please the general population I might add this an fairly new concept and even now its not true in many countries. Do you think rulers cared about what the peasants wanted who where 90% of the population? No they did not and when they rebelled they where crushed with the help of the 10% of the population which included the army and the bureaucracy.

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