If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side? - Page 5 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side?

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  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:
    The core concept is: "technological advanced civilization vs civilization that rely on the strength of their god".
    It is the main excuse behind the fact that nation stuck in pre-renaissance era is able to keep up with a nation on the cups of industrial era.
    The point is, even after the gods start becoming distant, the humans didn't have to engage in technological race with the Charr to keep the Status Quo.
    Your remark would be a good starting point if you wanted to put number on the relative strength of gods and technology. But this is cherry picking. The status quo is the final result when every factors have been taken into account and every values have been assigned to every variables.
    Now what we know happened in the past years:

    • Kormir still had some presence, and we witness her go.
    • Balthazar still had some presence, and we witness him go.
      We have to assume that the presence of those two were enough to maintain the current balance between charrs and humans.
      Now, it is not excluded that the core concept of those two races gets a major retcon (new human racial?). But it hasn't been confirmed yet.

    You mean the nation that is currently fielding an Airship force and a highly advanced force of Watchknights (that can be disguised as basically any army, making them nearly perfect infiltration units)? The gods have been gone or distant for a long while, and Humanity has done just fine. Even without magic they've been shown to be masters of fortification. The gods did nothing to make humanity stronger since before GW1, and this is a fact from within the games lore.

    Joko seems to be a very competent guy. If he said he destroyed everything, I'm sure we can fully trust him.
    That said, every major faction had a vested interest in securing a sample. For instance:

    • a extra option in their arsenal.
    • a bargaining coin.
    • a hot new item on the black market.
    • finding a cure or possible mitigation.
    • valuable medical results that could improve the future of medicine.

    Every major faction would be arriving after the ghost army purged Gandara. I'll admit sure, maybe some of the early gen scarab pockets may be around. Having the scarabs would not be a very good option for Arsenal (the scarabs may only actively infest humans, but they will devour and ruin crops). Bargaining coin wouldn't work too well either. The only major factions that'd actively deal in black market are Ash legion and Inquest.

    The last two can easily be handled by, gasp, the data Gorrik collected. You don't need live scarabs for either, and having them would risk a huge danger.

    It would be very unlikely that none of them succeeded.
    Besides, it's one of the "once the cat is out of the bag" case. The proof of concept has been brilliantly established, and now entomologist is the new hot profession. Why not start by studying that new elonian scarab mount that mysteriously surface shortly after the events? I heard races are organised in all parts of the world...

    You mean the scarab who became a mount for the commander, and then later the saddle was adapted for the roller beetles native to northern Kourna and Vabbi (Such beetles were common in GW1 for said areas. Shared exact model as GW2 roller beetle mount).

    Keep in mind you are part of the elite of the elite. One that is in contact with the rest of the world and meaningfully engage with it. You acceeded that cast on your own merit and will probably stay in it until the end of your life; never meddling again with members of inferior casts.
    The average charr will have a very different view of the world, and often, the idealized view he has of the charr society will be the only thing that will keep him running and support the empire. He would probably push for spreading that light.

    Actually, my Iron Legion engineer has barely traveled outside of Ascalon. And frankly, the three legions have a very strained hold on Ascalon, and spreading would weaken their lines even more.

    Trying to Invade Kryta would mean starting a war on two fronts, while also keeping a strong enough face to prevent Flame legion from charging.

    They'd have to march supplies, troops, and siege weapons to Ebonhawke to prevent humans from attacking from there, which would tie up entire armies for a long while (Note, the Charr tried for 200+ years to break Ebonhawke, they never succeeded). They'd also have to march across the Shiverpeaks to invade Kryta, meaning dealing with Dredge, Icebrood, Svanir, and all the wild monsters the Norn love to keep around for hunts. This would also be a long, stretched supply train easy to raid (unless they devoted even more troops to keep it secure), and would take time, giving humanity prep to fortify. The Charr would then need to devote a big enough army to peace-keeping in Ascalon to prevent the Flame legion from charging back in to take over, and handle Harpies, Ogres, Ghosts, etc.

    The idea of Flame Legion being shattered and defeated is purely a player spawned one. Last time they discussed the situation in Ascalon, it was described as Iron Legion fully understanding that Flame was waiting for a sign of weakness they could exploit to invade and conquer again. They are beaten back, but hardly gone. It's also in history that the three legions (Iron, Ash, Blood) full armies couldn't beat Flame's army, until the females joined in.

    Now, about Kryta? Well, White Mantle is destroyed and gone, having fully committed to trying to take DR. The Centaurs are a threat, but with the war chief dead and the Ministry no longer filled with back-stabbing schemers actively sabotaging the Seraph movements and supplies, mean they can secure their lines easier. The widespread bandit troubles were also heavily funded by the White Mantle, with bandit leaders freed from jails by Ministry contacts.

    So you got the Charr, in a secure position but knowing that it can quickly go downhill, vs Humanity which is getting more secure.

    Ventari also taught peace and sought peace between humans and Centaurs.

    Does that appear in the scriptures thou? Regardless, since before their birth, the Sylvaries associate centaurs with spiritual enlightment. If the centaurs were to chose a camp, that would probably tug the sylvaries in that direction.

    No, they associate Ventari as such. And he taught peace. Why would they purposefully align with Centaur factions who enslave and slaughter people? They'd be more likely to Team up with the peaceful Maguuma tribe.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    I agree with you on your other points, but I'm with Adiabatik here. As relatively widely as the Plague was deployed- the ship, the entire Domain of Kourna front, the massive can of sardines in Gandara, and those are just what we hear about- I would find it very plausible if the devs decide later that a few of the beetles were overlooked.

    I could buy say, pockets of the early gen scarabs being about (But not the third, big bad gen). That is however, a completely different situation then "And suddenly various governments snatched up Scarab Plague beetles and research to use in political moves."

  • @adormtil.1605 said:
    You know an entire nation being militaristic is not so far fetched. The mongols basically had most of their men in the army. How do you think they managed to raise over 100K troops in Mongolia in the 1100 they can barely do it now. The population was very small there.
    But you do not have to please the general population I might add this an fairly new concept and even now its not true in many countries. Do you think rulers cared about what the peasants wanted who where 90% of the population? No they did not and when they rebelled they where crushed with the help of the 10% of the population which included the army and the bureaucracy.

    After a quick view on the wikipedia:
    The entity that was able to rise a 100k army was actually the mongol confederacy/empire of the time. It was a combined force comprised of troups coming from a good part of China; and probably lead by Mongols. (It would also not be a stretch to consider that allies of the Mongol empire also sent troups for the purpose of that particular campaign.)
    Considering it is one of the rare number given, I would say it was probably the highest point of the mongol military mobilisation. And yes, you should consider that at least 1/2 to 2/3rd of the troups were left home (can't trust the neighbours too much, right?).

    Also, from the wikipedia, the Mongol population is about 3M. 100k would be about 3% of that number.
    2% to 4% of the population in the military seem to be a consistent figure among different civilizations past or present. There might have been exception for mercenaries city state (if those existed? I'm not sure).

    Obviously you don't have to stick to those figures in a fantasy setting. But staying in that ballpark would make the world a little more believable IMO.

  • No when the mongols started conquering China they already fought with an army of about 100K it was far bigger after that, far bigger. Check the Jin-Mongol Wars after the mongols unified.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    With the technology advance of the Pact, both Charr and Humans become meaningless as major powers (only interesting as financial/manpower support)
    Pact would force them to peace rather immediately.

  • The pact members are not separate from their nations. There still soldiers in Kryta and warband members of the charr. Do you think they will chose the pact over their nation?

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    Their Nation is Lion Arch, not Black Citadel or Divinity's Reach, and by choosing Lion Arch & the Pact over their racial armies they demonstrated that racism is not their main driver.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @Adiabatik.6714 said:

    There... aren't charr civilians. At least not the way you're thinking. Every charr in Legion lands gets brought up in a fahrar, with military discipline driven into them, and they live as a warband thereafter. The 'civilian' jobs are assigned to those warbands according to their abilities and the Legion's needs, just like the 'military' roles are. The craftsmen? Warbands. The ranchers and farmers? Warbands. The miners? Warbands. Pond maintenance? Yep, still warbands.

    I'm not positive it would work at the administrative level. Eck, even at the low rank of officer level, I think the whole thing would start to break appart.
    If military organisation were to extend to a whole state, we would probably end up with a bureaucracy of some kind. The army wouldn't be very low in the hierarchy, but it would definitively not be the top either; and it would be dependent on one of the many ministries.

    As a concrete example, who is in charge of the Iron citadel?

    • It is very likely that a permanent crew has been affected to it.
    • The three legions have probably given that crew special status (autonomy?) so it could litigate disputes between legions within the citadel.
    • The responsibility of that crew would be only maintenance and administration.
    • It would still need a special police force.
    • It's authority would probably extend to the surrounding area in order to supply the economy.

    I would say that, with time, it would quickly turn into a traditional civilian society.

    I don't think we have any way of determining whether it's realistic or not- to my knowledge, no nation in history has ever pulled off a youth indoctrination program like the fahrar system- but in a sense, realism is a moot point anyway. There are a lot of things about the lore we have to take at face value, even though they don't stand up too well when you think them through; ever wonder who the naval power of Lion's Arch actually trades with? In the case of the charr, we are told throughout that all Legion charr are raised in fahrars, sorted into warbands subject to Legion authority, and assigned tasks based on Legion needs. Unless you can see a solid reason why all those sources (some of them on the word-of-dev level) and NPCs would be lying, even to charr PCs, then we just need to shrug and apply suspension of disbelief.

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    Their Nation is Lion Arch, not Black Citadel or Divinity's Reach, and by choosing Lion Arch & the Pact over their racial armies they demonstrated that racism is not their main driver.

    Actually, through the Orr campaign, we meet a fair few characters who freely tell us they joined the Pact to look out for their individual nation's interests- specifically, their interest in not being killed off and raised as undead thralls in the future. We, admittedly, don't know how widespread that mindset for order/Pact personnel, but we do at least know that racial loyalties are not incompatible with the greater good.

    Regardless, though, I doubt if the Pact actually is stronger than even a single nation at this point. Last we heard, they hadn't rebuilt from the disaster in the Maguuma, and the force Logan brought to help with Kralkatorrik was a massive step down from what they brought to bear against previous dragons. We also know that at least some of their tech has entered general circulation- airships, for instance- while other advances were magically tuned towards dragon minions and wouldn't serve much use against nations. The only real unique advantage that we haven't seen other groups get their hands on yet are those massive power generators, and even then, they don't really fuel anything that the asura don't already use on a smaller scale.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Dayra.7405 said:
    Their Nation is Lion Arch, not Black Citadel or Divinity's Reach, and by choosing Lion Arch & the Pact over their racial armies they demonstrated that racism is not their main driver.

    So you think lets take for example the pact Marshal has to chose between Kryta and the Pact he will chose the Pact?

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @adormtil.1605 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    Their Nation is Lion Arch, not Black Citadel or Divinity's Reach, and by choosing Lion Arch & the Pact over their racial armies they demonstrated that racism is not their main driver.

    So you think lets take for example the pact Marshal has to chose between Kryta and the Pact he will chose the Pact?

    Hm, Logan is in love with Jenna, quite unrepresentative choice for an example.

  • He is the leader of the Pact. What better representative?

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @adormtil.1605 said:
    He is the leader of the Pact. What better representative?

    He likely do what he always do in such situation: he run away.

    And I would not call him leader of the pact, more representative or coordinator of the three orders

  • Lets assume he does that with the marshal gone doubt the pact will act to stop an war they will be stunned until an new marshal is chosen. You remember during Mordremoth that the pact had to be put in action by the commander after their fleet and army was defeated. There is no commander now to take control commander quit. And the 3 orders leaders can not decide on the course if they decide to act. Why do you think they needed an marshal in the first place?

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭

    All three orders and Lion Arch support peace and cooperation between the races, that doesn't need a marshal.

  • Yes but they do not act without an marshal or commander for that matter which they will have none. They need an marshal or else they will bicker on the course of action. Which was shown in the story.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dayra.7405 said:

    @adormtil.1605 said:
    He is the leader of the Pact. What better representative?

    He likely do what he always do in such situation: he run away.

    And I would not call him leader of the pact, more representative or coordinator of the three orders

    If you're the representative of the orders and the coordinator of their forces, you're the leader, he was chosen as Pact Marshal because he was the best for the job of leading those forces. But first and foremost, his loyalty is to, not even Queen Jennah at this point, but Kryta in general. You can't get around that, and for that matter he's not even the only person in the Pact who joined for this reason.

    The notion that the Pact is this massive entity that consumes the nations and strips them of all racial identity like the borg is plainly absurd.

  • I wanna add something all the orders the pact is made from where active during the time the humans an charr where at war. Some for hundreds of years active some for decades. None of them intervened militarily to stop the war or intervened period bar one. Hell the vigil intervened but not with their military but with an small team and members of said team betrayed the vigil to fight for their race against the other race.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    The wisperes blackmailed or assassinated the one or other war-driver? (From both sides ofc)

  • After the peace maybe but during the war no and remember it was an conflict that lasted hundreds of years. During an war assassinating war drivers will make things worse as the factions will want revenge against who they think is the culprit.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019

    We don't know what the Whispers did or didn't do during the war, but we do know it wasn't enough to stop the war before Kralkatorrik's waking. At best, they needed a credible outside threat to the charr that they could leverage and were only able to mitigate the damage in the meantime. At worst, they watched and they waited without ever making a move at all. Either way, with Kralk gone, that doesn't speak well of their odds should the charr and humans go for each other's throats again. (Although, again, I consider that unlikely for other reasons.)

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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