Is there another Expansion in the works? - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is there another Expansion in the works?

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  • How did this turn into a thread about raids?

    I really hope Anet is going to surprise us with LS5, but there are a lot of rumors flying around that LW is set to replace expacs altogether, and if that's the case I feel like Anet should confirm/deny.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nemmar.8491 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    the problem with the last two xpacts is the simple fact that, even after all what was made, all it truly got us is a way of fast and saver transportation.
    HoT doesn't really have anything more than allot of grind, added currency and a really lame end battle, leaving us with just gliders which is quite a cash cow for Anet.
    PoF has allot of nostalgia but not much to go for, in it's base sense it's simply a start to make the exact same mistake they made in HoT but now they have a bigger cash cow, mounts.

    what i am really hoping for is an xpac that has a big impact that draws allot of old and new guild wars fans but isn't yet more grinding, farming with extra new currencies and yet another cash cow.
    it might surprise ppl but it was handled better in guild wars, they released an expansion but kept everything within that place.
    they made plenty of exclusive stuff but it didn't affect the rest of the game, you can play the game without the xpac while adding allot of fun to the game if you bought it.

    so to round it up, it's better when an expansion pack adds something new but doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage when you don't own it, one that makes quite an impact but doesn't make it necessary.

    You can play gw2 without the expansions just fine. In gw1 you were at a disadvantage without the expansions.

    That is a funny thing to say. I would like to know why you say that.

    Is it because of the skills that were unlocked with a new expansion? Is it not the same as the elite specializations and their skills nowadays? Also, how are you not at a disavantage without a glider and mounts? :expressionless:

    I didnt say that you were not at a disadvantage without glider or mount.

    What I have said, multiple times, is that both games could be played just fine without expansions, but that buying the expansions gave advantages. This was to counter the claim that this was an issue for gw2 but not gw1.

  • Please keep it on topic, i really would like some sort of confirmation from Anet, and not see the thread locked as off topic. Expansion, yes or no........and once again no details necessary just a simple we are or we are not, thanks.

  • Nemmar.8491Nemmar.8491 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?

    I think you are a bit confused.
    The F2P players are not at all profitable. Only the whales are. They are the ones that keep the game afloat.
    Sure, you can just keep relying on micro-transactions from whales while the world keeps losing population, or you can think about capturing a wider paying audience.

    Alienating the F2P players is far from a big loss, not that it needs to happen. Gaining a more stable revenue source sounds like a better business decision to me. You want players playing your game, to be engaged, or they won't really be spending money. For that, you need compelling recurring gameplay. That is what GW2 lacks. The world exploration and the story missions are entertaining, but they last a couple of days at best. The instanced repeatable gameplay loses it's appeal quickly when there's no character progression.

    I am surprised you think so little of the team and the GW IP, that you think it wouldn't have a chance versus other MMO's in the market. I disagree with that.

    But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

    An expansion or large patch would be the perfect opportunity to bring such a system in.

  • I would not enjoy vertical progression one bit. I've only had to gear my characters once. Why would I want to constantly do that? Doesn't sound like much fun, to me.
    I'm not sure Play4Free players don't buy Gems; it's not like they can utilize the Gold-to-Gems mechanic.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I believe it is the trickle of the F2P players who occasionally buy gems that helps those times in between when things are released that the whales go after? I mean, once something new hits the TP, and all of the whales who are going to buy it have bought it, then what income is there before the next new thing? Alienating this portion of the base might be more harmful than we could ever know (because only ANet has those figures).

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal

    It's not. You can heal raids just fine in exotics, just as all other builds work fine in exotics, too.

  • Swing.6439Swing.6439 Member ✭✭✭

    Can we keep this on topic please? If you're concerned about what you need to be relevant in anything, make a thread about it. I'd like to get feedback on this subject because it's going to determine whether or not I drop this game until real content is provided.

  • Well, until ArenaNet tells us another expansion is 'in the works', no one knows, for sure. We can only guess.

  • I sure hope so. Can't wait for that AoE CC on dodge elite specialisation.

    :p

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mikali.9651 said:
    I don't know man, but it seems that Anet forgot that MMORPGs are not single player story games. I don't like their forced focus on LS.

    Living story works for bridging the gap between major endgame content releases. Unfortunately you're right and by now LS replaced the major releases and it shows.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:
    I really hope Anet is going to surprise us with LS5, but there are a lot of rumors flying around that LW is set to replace expacs altogether, and if that's the case I feel like Anet should confirm/deny.

    Agreed. :+1:

  • @Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:> I really hope Anet is going to surprise us with LS5, but there are a lot of rumors flying around that LW is set to replace expacs altogether, and if that's the case I feel like Anet should confirm/deny.

    I totally agree, rumors tend to be quite destructive. My hope is that they don't abandon the expansion packs i truly feel this would be a miss read of what the bulk of the community wants and could very well end up turning into another fiasco like that certain mobile instead of expansion (or new title) debacle which immediately and severely impacted that companies stocks.

  • Honestly I think if they scrapped Expacks and just worked on LW it would really screw over Arenanet, the LW is already a massive turn off for anyone who is coming in new. Most MMO's you buy an Expack and can play through the whole story to the next one for free or with a subscription. Having to then buy content updates like Living world after you just brought an expansion is confusing for newcomers, especially after paying $19.99 for hot and week later needing to pay another $19.99 for LW3.

    Expansions bring Hype, they put GW2 back into the news sections of gaming websites. How they handled POF was amazing, announcing it one month before release blew my mind. Most MMO's announce Expacks 9/10 months before release and its this boring slow content drip of news until the Expack hits where Arenanet was like, WAM BAM Expack is releasing in one month!

    I've never been more hyped for a MMO expack than PoF.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Two missconceptions:

    A.) all whale players would want vertical progression.
    B.) a game which has only 1-10% of its player base is lucrative or sees play.

    The rest is heavy biased subjective OPINION.

    You are the odd apple out. I guarantee you, with the current player base, introducing vertical progression would hit a lot more nerves than people who agree. I ask again: why would any sensible company risk this? (especially with past experiences, like when ascended got introduced).

    This has nothing to do with what I think or believe. It's simple market analysis and sensible competitive selection. You can try to butter up nonsense as much as you like. A certain player type was drawn to GW2, and many of them enjoy the non vertical progressive nature. You are literally not seeing the big picture due to personal bias.

    I have to agree with this, I came back to GW2 about a year and a half ago after losing my job and my PC dying i only had my PS4, eventually I got back on my feet and managed to get back to GW2 and one of the best things about it?? I wasn't behind anyone, my gear was relevant, I could still go fractals, I could continue exactly where i left off, I didn't need to level up 20 levels and get a gear score of 200+ to just be able to do some content. This is THE best thing about GW2.

    I've played so many MMO's, and they two I have spent most time in was FFXIV and GW2 and I can say without any doubt I do not miss vertical progression at all. In FFXIV you miss a patch there is a new currency, new Ilv gear, new instances, new raid. But to do any of this you have to grind new gear, make sure you cap currency for the week, buy gear with that currency. This happens every patch the same vertical boring grind.

    If i never play another vertical progression game again it'll be too soon.

  • Nemmar.8491Nemmar.8491 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?

    I think you are a bit confused.
    The F2P players are not at all profitable. Only the whales are. They are the ones that keep the game afloat.
    Sure, you can just keep relying on micro-transactions from whales while the world keeps losing population, or you can think about capturing a wider paying audience.

    Alienating the F2P players is far from a big loss, not that it needs to happen. Gaining a more stable revenue source sounds like a better business decision to me. You want players playing your game, to be engaged, or they won't really be spending money. For that, you need compelling recurring gameplay. That is what GW2 lacks. The world exploration and the story missions are entertaining, but they last a couple of days at best. The instanced repeatable gameplay loses it's appeal quickly when there's no character progression.

    I am surprised you think so little of the team and the GW IP, that you think it wouldn't have a chance versus other MMO's in the market. I disagree with that.

    But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

    An expansion or large patch would be the perfect opportunity to bring such a system in.

    Two missconceptions:

    A.) all whale players would want vertical progression.
    B.) a game which has only 1-10% of its player base is lucrative or sees play.

    The rest is heavy biased subjective OPINION.

    You are the odd apple out. I guarantee you, with the current player base, introducing vertical progression would hit a lot more nerves than people who agree. I ask again: why would any sensible company risk this? (especially with past experiences, like when ascended got introduced).

    This has nothing to do with what I think or believe. It's simple market analysis and sensible competitive selection. You can try to butter up nonsense as much as you like. A certain player type was drawn to GW2, and many of them enjoy the non vertical progressive nature. You are literally not seeing the big picture due to personal bias.

    Well... i guess that after the recent news, my position was more realistic. Wether it's the majority or not. I guess it says everything.

    Guild wars needs better retention systems and gameplay/payment options. Or i guess we can all continue to pretend everything is alright as Anet downsizes and eventually gets shut down by NCsoft. Money m'boy. You gotta follow it. GW2 isn't making enough of it. And honestly, i would rather lootboxes not be the solution as that won't work long term either.

    So, disagree all you want, say it's my opinion all you want and say that i am a minority all you want. Reality stands with me. Your stubbornness is risking the future of Guild Wars. It's time to admit it has to change before it's too late.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Nemmar.8491 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?

    I think you are a bit confused.
    The F2P players are not at all profitable. Only the whales are. They are the ones that keep the game afloat.
    Sure, you can just keep relying on micro-transactions from whales while the world keeps losing population, or you can think about capturing a wider paying audience.

    Alienating the F2P players is far from a big loss, not that it needs to happen. Gaining a more stable revenue source sounds like a better business decision to me. You want players playing your game, to be engaged, or they won't really be spending money. For that, you need compelling recurring gameplay. That is what GW2 lacks. The world exploration and the story missions are entertaining, but they last a couple of days at best. The instanced repeatable gameplay loses it's appeal quickly when there's no character progression.

    I am surprised you think so little of the team and the GW IP, that you think it wouldn't have a chance versus other MMO's in the market. I disagree with that.

    But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

    An expansion or large patch would be the perfect opportunity to bring such a system in.

    Two missconceptions:

    A.) all whale players would want vertical progression.
    B.) a game which has only 1-10% of its player base is lucrative or sees play.

    The rest is heavy biased subjective OPINION.

    You are the odd apple out. I guarantee you, with the current player base, introducing vertical progression would hit a lot more nerves than people who agree. I ask again: why would any sensible company risk this? (especially with past experiences, like when ascended got introduced).

    This has nothing to do with what I think or believe. It's simple market analysis and sensible competitive selection. You can try to butter up nonsense as much as you like. A certain player type was drawn to GW2, and many of them enjoy the non vertical progressive nature. You are literally not seeing the big picture due to personal bias.

    Well... i guess that after the recent news, my position was more realistic. Wether it's the majority or not. I guess it says everything.
    Guild wars needs better retention systems and gameplay/payment options. Or i guess we can all continue to pretend everything is alright as Anet downsizes and eventually gets shut down by NCsoft. Money m'boy. You gotta follow it. GW2 isn't making enough of it. And honestly, i would rather lootboxes not be the solution as that won't work long term either.

    So, disagree all you want, say it's my opinion all you want and say that i am a minority all you want. Reality stands with me. Your stubbornness is risking the future of Guild Wars. It's time to admit it has to change before it's too late.

    What are you smoking? If at all the recent news (if you are up to date) clearly indicates that non GW2 related projects are iced....

    Aka, a refocus on GW2 and making money off of that and certainly not alienate that fan base.

    EDIT: since you added things:

    You did read that non GW2 related projects were cancelled? What Arenanet will likely do is focus on monetizing GW2 WITHIN the scope of its strengths. If you think this means gear progression, you are out of your mind.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    When you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.
    And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

    Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?

    I do agree that the MMO genre needs to get out of the stale fomula's they've been trying to repeat hoping to catch that but that doesn't mean it's all bad. What MMOs generally have as a problem is that on release they forget that they do need to compete more with elder games and can't just say "well it's new so it can't have all the things" and think that players will all accept that and that they generally do not fix the core game but just "move forward" with new content. That means that MMOs never really achieve a solid foundation. They do not invest into what they made before. This has to do with business practices that favor new investments that lead to more spending but forgets the overall enjoyment and longevity of the game. In other words they serve investors more than customers.

    Also GW2 which is somewhat different from other MMOs isn't as different as some people think. A lot of it is the same but has just been packaged differently. I will remind you that map hearts do have some difference with normal quests but at the same time what you do is still kill x mobs, collect x items and click x clickables type of stuff. So that's just one example of how GW2 does have a different approach but in many ways actually isn't that different from other games. Still that doesn't mean that none of this makes a difference but when you come down to the nuts and bolts I just feel that GW2 isn't THAT different from other MMOs.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    When you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.
    And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

    The main difference here is this though:
    Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.
    Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

    The game matures and attracts a player base which is favorable to the games design.

    Now Player B joins GW2 because the game is popular and has grown (mostly thanks to player A supporting it since any player Bs who joined initially left the game again by now). Player B still wants gear grind and demands this be implemented because that is what he craves and is used to.

    Yes, by making a design choice or even sticking with a design choice you will create controversy. But please, don't pretend like player A and B are the same.

    Now you could make an argument along the lines of:
    "Changing this design element would bring in a lot more revenue since the game would generate a lot more revenue from player B than player A."

    To which I would answer: sure, that's possible. If alienating your core player base while also shifting more into a competitive position with other MMOs by giving up some of ones uniqueness is worth the risk, go for it. I still don't think this would be a smart move.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    When you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.
    And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

    The main difference here is this though:
    Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.
    Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

    The game matures and attracts a player base which is favorable to the games design.

    Now Player B joins GW2 because the game is popular and has grown (mostly thanks to player A supporting it since any player Bs who joined initially left the game again by now). Player B still wants gear grind and demands this be implemented because that is what he craves and is used to.

    Yes, by making a design choice or even sticking with a design choice you will create controversy. But please, don't pretend like player A and B are the same.

    Now you could make an argument along the lines of:
    "Changing this design element would bring in a lot more revenue since the game would generate a lot more revenue from player B than player A."

    To which I would answer: sure, that's possible. If alienating your core player base while also shifting more into a competitive position with other MMOs by giving up some of ones uniqueness is worth the risk, go for it. I still don't think this would be a smart move.

    When GW2 came out it wasn't long before there were complaints about endgame not being there and people wanting to have some form of progression. This is why the fractals came. So that means that even though some of the players came here for not having those elements, there were still a lot of players that came here for an MMO experience and didn't have such a strong opinion on not having a trinity or gear grind.

    Personally I play GW2 but I actually prefer trinity games but it's not the only thing that matters to me. That's why I play GW2 and not those other games. In simple terms though if SWTOR hadn't ruined their endgame reward system with something called Galactic Command which still plagues that game today, I would be there and not here.

    My point is that it's a bit naïve to think that players can just be that easily categorized and that some of these factors may be important to some players but not all. Now I'm not saying that GW2 should change to fit that mold. Not saying that at all, but I am saying that in spite of such differences you may find that a lot of players might be very willing to move to another game if there was one that appealed to them enough. Recent years have been pretty poor in that respect but I'm sure that as soon as another MMO comes out that does actually appeal I will check it out because I only really play GW2 since there's nothing better at the moment... but I do want something better.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    When you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.
    And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

    The main difference here is this though:
    Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.
    Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

    The game matures and attracts a player base which is favorable to the games design.

    Now Player B joins GW2 because the game is popular and has grown (mostly thanks to player A supporting it since any player Bs who joined initially left the game again by now). Player B still wants gear grind and demands this be implemented because that is what he craves and is used to.

    Yes, by making a design choice or even sticking with a design choice you will create controversy. But please, don't pretend like player A and B are the same.

    Now you could make an argument along the lines of:
    "Changing this design element would bring in a lot more revenue since the game would generate a lot more revenue from player B than player A."

    To which I would answer: sure, that's possible. If alienating your core player base while also shifting more into a competitive position with other MMOs by giving up some of ones uniqueness is worth the risk, go for it. I still don't think this would be a smart move.

    When GW2 came out it wasn't long before there were complaints about endgame not being there and people wanting to have some form of progression. This is why the fractals came. So that means that even though some of the players came here for not having those elements, there were still a lot of players that came here for an MMO experience and didn't have such a strong opinion on not having a trinity or gear grind.

    No, this is why ascended was introduced. Fractals came because the dungeon content was too hard to salvage and it was easier to implement a new system.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Personally I play GW2 but I actually prefer trinity games but it's not the only thing that matters to me. That's why I play GW2 and not those other games. In simple terms though if SWTOR hadn't ruined their endgame reward system with something called Galactic Command which still plagues that game today, I would be there and not here.

    So SWTOR ruined their endgame reward system. Blizzard with WoW did the same with BoA. Yet you expect Arenanet with GW2 to succeed when going against what players expect?

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    My point is that it's a bit naïve to think that players can just be that easily categorized and that some of these factors may be important to some players but not all. Now I'm not saying that GW2 should change to fit that mold. Not saying that at all, but I am saying that in spite of such differences you may find that a lot of players might be very willing to move to another game if there was one that appealed to them enough. Recent years have been pretty poor in that respect but I'm sure that as soon as another MMO comes out that does actually appeal I will check it out because I only really play GW2 since there's nothing better at the moment... but I do want something better.

    Yes, recent years have been very poor and so far, what Arenanet has been doing has proven successful to some extent (or the game would have ended similar to other MMOs released).

    It's very simple really, if you think the game will generate a lot more revenue and profit by implementing continuous gear grind, then Arenanet should go for it. It's what would be best for the company. If you do not think that introducing a continuous gear grind will generate more revenue and profit, then they obviously should not. I have given my reasons as to why I do not believe this to be in the games best interest founded in both past community reactions as well as unique design elements. All I have heard from the other side so far has been: because I want it.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    When you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.
    And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

    The main difference here is this though:
    Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.
    Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

    The game matures and attracts a player base which is favorable to the games design.

    Now Player B joins GW2 because the game is popular and has grown (mostly thanks to player A supporting it since any player Bs who joined initially left the game again by now). Player B still wants gear grind and demands this be implemented because that is what he craves and is used to.

    Yes, by making a design choice or even sticking with a design choice you will create controversy. But please, don't pretend like player A and B are the same.

    Now you could make an argument along the lines of:
    "Changing this design element would bring in a lot more revenue since the game would generate a lot more revenue from player B than player A."

    To which I would answer: sure, that's possible. If alienating your core player base while also shifting more into a competitive position with other MMOs by giving up some of ones uniqueness is worth the risk, go for it. I still don't think this would be a smart move.

    When GW2 came out it wasn't long before there were complaints about endgame not being there and people wanting to have some form of progression. This is why the fractals came. So that means that even though some of the players came here for not having those elements, there were still a lot of players that came here for an MMO experience and didn't have such a strong opinion on not having a trinity or gear grind.

    No, this is why ascended was introduced. Fractals came because the dungeon content was too hard to salvage and it was easier to implement a new system.

    Ascended gear was part of the fractals set up. That's why it came with infusion slots. Fractals do have a progression system within it with tiers and levels.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Personally I play GW2 but I actually prefer trinity games but it's not the only thing that matters to me. That's why I play GW2 and not those other games. In simple terms though if SWTOR hadn't ruined their endgame reward system with something called Galactic Command which still plagues that game today, I would be there and not here.

    So SWTOR ruined their endgame reward system. Blizzard with WoW did the same with BoA. Yet you expect Arenanet with GW2 to succeed when going against what players expect?

    No, I'm saying that there's no such thing as "what players expect" because that's very different from person to person.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    My point is that it's a bit naïve to think that players can just be that easily categorized and that some of these factors may be important to some players but not all. Now I'm not saying that GW2 should change to fit that mold. Not saying that at all, but I am saying that in spite of such differences you may find that a lot of players might be very willing to move to another game if there was one that appealed to them enough. Recent years have been pretty poor in that respect but I'm sure that as soon as another MMO comes out that does actually appeal I will check it out because I only really play GW2 since there's nothing better at the moment... but I do want something better.

    Yes, recent years have been very poor and so far, what Arenanet has been doing has proven successful to some extent (or the game would have ended similar to other MMOs released).

    To some extent is the right wording and kudo's to GW2 for surviving in an otherwise difficult environment, though I do believe that this limited success is very much in part because there isn't much competition.

    It's very simple really, if you think the game will generate a lot more revenue and profit by implementing continuous gear grind, then Arenanet should go for it. It's what would be best for the company. If you do not think that introducing a continuous gear grind will generate more revenue and profit, then they obviously should not. I have given my reasons as to why I do not believe this to be in the games best interest founded in both past community reactions as well as unique design elements. All I have heard from the other side so far has been: because I want it.

    As I said, I don't say that gear grind should be introduced. I'm just saying your reasoning is flawed. It really would be to your benefit if you could separate the two. I'm not saying that GW2 should get new gear levels and level cap raises but the reasoning you have behind your statements is just very flawed especially when you compare GW2 to other MMOs.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    When you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.
    And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

    The main difference here is this though:
    Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.
    Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

    The game matures and attracts a player base which is favorable to the games design.

    Now Player B joins GW2 because the game is popular and has grown (mostly thanks to player A supporting it since any player Bs who joined initially left the game again by now). Player B still wants gear grind and demands this be implemented because that is what he craves and is used to.

    Yes, by making a design choice or even sticking with a design choice you will create controversy. But please, don't pretend like player A and B are the same.

    Now you could make an argument along the lines of:
    "Changing this design element would bring in a lot more revenue since the game would generate a lot more revenue from player B than player A."

    To which I would answer: sure, that's possible. If alienating your core player base while also shifting more into a competitive position with other MMOs by giving up some of ones uniqueness is worth the risk, go for it. I still don't think this would be a smart move.

    When GW2 came out it wasn't long before there were complaints about endgame not being there and people wanting to have some form of progression. This is why the fractals came. So that means that even though some of the players came here for not having those elements, there were still a lot of players that came here for an MMO experience and didn't have such a strong opinion on not having a trinity or gear grind.

    No, this is why ascended was introduced. Fractals came because the dungeon content was too hard to salvage and it was easier to implement a new system.

    Ascended gear was part of the fractals set up. That's why it came with infusion slots. Fractals do have a progression system within it with tiers and levels.

    Ascended gear was added because the time to acquire exotics was too fast and internal metrics before the games launch were unrealistic. This was in the official announcement for ascended back in the day. Ascended was added to bridge the gap between exotic and legendary gear while providing players with a longer gear grind.

    Fractals were introduced to streamline dungeon type content.

    You are drawing correlations where there are none. Fractals could have been added without ascended and ascended could have been added without fractals. It just made sense to combine them. Not to mention that ascended was introduced over a variety of game content, intentionally.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Personally I play GW2 but I actually prefer trinity games but it's not the only thing that matters to me. That's why I play GW2 and not those other games. In simple terms though if SWTOR hadn't ruined their endgame reward system with something called Galactic Command which still plagues that game today, I would be there and not here.

    So SWTOR ruined their endgame reward system. Blizzard with WoW did the same with BoA. Yet you expect Arenanet with GW2 to succeed when going against what players expect?

    No, I'm saying that there's no such thing as "what players expect" because that's very different from person to person.

    That is simply untrue. That's like saying:"Any car customer is unique and when buying a BMW, Mercedes or Lada people have no difference in expectations.

    Yes, all players are unique. Doesn't mean that common interests can bring them together or that one can assume a common theme among a big segment of people.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    My point is that it's a bit naïve to think that players can just be that easily categorized and that some of these factors may be important to some players but not all. Now I'm not saying that GW2 should change to fit that mold. Not saying that at all, but I am saying that in spite of such differences you may find that a lot of players might be very willing to move to another game if there was one that appealed to them enough. Recent years have been pretty poor in that respect but I'm sure that as soon as another MMO comes out that does actually appeal I will check it out because I only really play GW2 since there's nothing better at the moment... but I do want something better.

    Yes, recent years have been very poor and so far, what Arenanet has been doing has proven successful to some extent (or the game would have ended similar to other MMOs released).

    To some extent is the right wording and kudo's to GW2 for surviving in an otherwise difficult environment, though I do believe that this limited success is very much in part because there isn't much competition.

    There is a lot of competition, most of which are not unique enough to succeed. The fact that most new MMOs over the last few years were either copies (the entire post WoW wake fiasco) or not able to properly cut out a segment of the market is no indicator for lacking competition. It's just a sign of lacking successful competition.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's very simple really, if you think the game will generate a lot more revenue and profit by implementing continuous gear grind, then Arenanet should go for it. It's what would be best for the company. If you do not think that introducing a continuous gear grind will generate more revenue and profit, then they obviously should not. I have given my reasons as to why I do not believe this to be in the games best interest founded in both past community reactions as well as unique design elements. All I have heard from the other side so far has been: because I want it.

    As I said, I don't say that gear grind should be introduced. I'm just saying your reasoning is flawed. It really would be to your benefit if you could separate the two. I'm not saying that GW2 should get new gear levels and level cap raises but the reasoning you have behind your statements is just very flawed especially when you compare GW2 to other MMOs.

    Sure, they might be. My reasoning and how I come to it, I have explained.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    To be honest, there does have to be something to progress towards and GW2 does have that, just in different things. I find the gear grind in the form of legendary gear quite significant. It's not for stats but new legendary items are still being released. So it's not about stats as such but there is a form of gear grind. When I look at SWTOR for example where level cap raises and the gear treadmill do exist, I can only say that it takes a lot less effort there to gear up a character because the top 2 tiers of gear tend to be superfluous anyway so the level you need to do the hardest content is quite easy to get. That makes the gear treadmill a lot less aggravating though people still complain of course.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    When you start telling people "this is not the game for you" that means that GW2 is also alienating a part of their player base. All decisions you make do that. GW2 released without a holy trinity. That appeals to some and annoys others.
    And I think you'll find that a large part of GW2 players have also played other MMOs and will play others in the future as well. It's unwise to assume that just because GW2 has a couple of differences in their approach that they are not competing for a large chunk of the same player base.

    The main difference here is this though:
    Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.
    Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

    The game matures and attracts a player base which is favorable to the games design.

    Now Player B joins GW2 because the game is popular and has grown (mostly thanks to player A supporting it since any player Bs who joined initially left the game again by now). Player B still wants gear grind and demands this be implemented because that is what he craves and is used to.

    Yes, by making a design choice or even sticking with a design choice you will create controversy. But please, don't pretend like player A and B are the same.

    Now you could make an argument along the lines of:
    "Changing this design element would bring in a lot more revenue since the game would generate a lot more revenue from player B than player A."

    To which I would answer: sure, that's possible. If alienating your core player base while also shifting more into a competitive position with other MMOs by giving up some of ones uniqueness is worth the risk, go for it. I still don't think this would be a smart move.

    When GW2 came out it wasn't long before there were complaints about endgame not being there and people wanting to have some form of progression. This is why the fractals came. So that means that even though some of the players came here for not having those elements, there were still a lot of players that came here for an MMO experience and didn't have such a strong opinion on not having a trinity or gear grind.

    No, this is why ascended was introduced. Fractals came because the dungeon content was too hard to salvage and it was easier to implement a new system.

    Ascended gear was part of the fractals set up. That's why it came with infusion slots. Fractals do have a progression system within it with tiers and levels.

    Ascended gear was added because the time to acquire exotics was to fast and internal metrics before the games launch were unrealistic. This was in the official announcement for ascended back in the day.

    Fractals were introduced to streamline dungeon type content.

    You are drawing correlations where there are none. Fractals could have been added without ascended and ascended could have been added without fractals. It just made sense to combine them. Not to mention that ascended was introduced over a variety of game content, intentionally.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Personally I play GW2 but I actually prefer trinity games but it's not the only thing that matters to me. That's why I play GW2 and not those other games. In simple terms though if SWTOR hadn't ruined their endgame reward system with something called Galactic Command which still plagues that game today, I would be there and not here.

    So SWTOR ruined their endgame reward system. Blizzard with WoW did the same with BoA. Yet you expect Arenanet with GW2 to succeed when going against what players expect?

    No, I'm saying that there's no such thing as "what players expect" because that's very different from person to person.

    That is simply untrue. That's like saying:"Any car customer is unique and when buying a BMW or Mercedes people have no difference in expectations.

    Yes, all players are unique. Doesn't mean that common interests can bring them together or that one can assume a common theme among a big segment of people.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    My point is that it's a bit naïve to think that players can just be that easily categorized and that some of these factors may be important to some players but not all. Now I'm not saying that GW2 should change to fit that mold. Not saying that at all, but I am saying that in spite of such differences you may find that a lot of players might be very willing to move to another game if there was one that appealed to them enough. Recent years have been pretty poor in that respect but I'm sure that as soon as another MMO comes out that does actually appeal I will check it out because I only really play GW2 since there's nothing better at the moment... but I do want something better.

    Yes, recent years have been very poor and so far, what Arenanet has been doing has proven successful to some extent (or the game would have ended similar to other MMOs released).

    To some extent is the right wording and kudo's to GW2 for surviving in an otherwise difficult environment, though I do believe that this limited success is very much in part because there isn't much competition.

    There is a lot of competition, most of which are not unique enough to succeed. The fact that most new MMOs over the last few years were either copies (the entire post WoW wake fiasco) or not able to properly cut out a segment of the market is no indicator for lacking competition. It's just a sign of lacking successful competition.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's very simple really, if you think the game will generate a lot more revenue and profit by implementing continuous gear grind, then Arenanet should go for it. It's what would be best for the company. If you do not think that introducing a continuous gear grind will generate more revenue and profit, then they obviously should not. I have given my reasons as to why I do not believe this to be in the games best interest founded in both past community reactions as well as unique design elements. All I have heard from the other side so far has been: because I want it.

    As I said, I don't say that gear grind should be introduced. I'm just saying your reasoning is flawed. It really would be to your benefit if you could separate the two. I'm not saying that GW2 should get new gear levels and level cap raises but the reasoning you have behind your statements is just very flawed especially when you compare GW2 to other MMOs.

    Sure, they might be. My reasoning and how I come to it, I have explained.

    And as I've explained I find your reasoning flawed and why and that has been my only point. I guess we can leave it at that. No need to regurgitate what we've stated already.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I’ve never had more fun in the game than when I was playing through heart of thorns and it what made me really fall in love with it after playing it off and on throughout the years. Will never understand the resentment some people have towards it.

    I'm with you on this one. I'm a new player, btw (so much of a game being too old to not attract new players :D), and I've just reached the HoT and PoF maps - and this content is simply amazing! I also heard some whining that HoT was the worst expansion etc, but couldn't even imagine how and why. Those multi-level complex labyrinth maps is a pure joy for anybody loving exploration part of the game , the idea about slowly learning your environment and putting it to use is brilliant (but somewhat spoiled by the fact mounts are in game already when you get to HoT, if you couldn't wait and went to PoF for a quick stab to get them, like me; really think they should have turned it into no-mounts zone, or put much more of no-mounts zones around those maps, only allowing to use mounts to move between distant points along a straight line, and only certain mounts (not griffon or springer, surely) - at least until you'll learn some high-tier mastery after beating most of those maps), and level of challenge is very nice as well, I had a lot of fun going into tough encounters and running for my life jumping of cliffs and gliding into unknown. Would pay 30$ in no time for another huge adventure like this one.

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

    So, you want for people to be able to just jump in, and have fun, and you disliked grinding for Ascension equipment - yet you still advocate for more gear grind? Makes perfect sense yea :D

    I resent gear grind approach, I would quit the game if it would start to force me to constantly grind for anything at all, I hate grinding and farming. And as for progression, I think masteries is more than enough for that. It's a system which can be re-used many times, for each huge region added via expansion. If done right, like in HoT (and even better), you find yourself on a new map, totally unprepared for it, and slowly "learn your surroundings", getting more abilities to navigate it and access content there, getting better at some gameplay elements which only make sense in this particular region.

    I would even go further, making it a region-specific part of your build. Like, assuming you are going to Maguma jungle, you are opening a new window, and assign certain Masteries to certain mastery slots, which define how well you are adjusted to this environment. I.e. it would be a separate mastery trait line, so, in case of HoT maps for example, you wouldn't be able to always have full access to all gliding features and shrooms features at the same time, and would have to cut corners.

    Then the same approach could be brought to Fractals and Raids, making all those "Mastery traits" mean something for a group of players as well. Like, if one takes certain gliding abilities, they can propagate it to a few other players close to them, so they won't need to take it themselves, and could slot some other mastery which in its turn can be shared across the group. You got the idea. Some masteries could be only allowed to be chosen by one of the group members, like, for example, certain mounts giving you too much advantage on this map; so if your group need access to it, a dedicated member on your group will need to handle it. Adding more challenging content to Raids / Fractals requiring you to be good at using mounts would help here as well.

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would love to visit Cantha, to get player housing for my characters and a Hall of Monuments like achievement/collection display museum.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    The main difference here is this though:
    Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.
    Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

    Thats a slight assumption. For example, me and most of my RL friends played GW1 and bought Gw2 either at launch or very close to launch. And lack of holy trinity and pve grind was never on our list of reasons for buying or playing the game. But it was reason for most of them to quit and for me to periodically quit and return to the game. I am willing to bet that there is way more players that would be motivated by some kind of vertical progression than many are willing to admit here.

    Also, ascended gear and fractals are an example of post launch vertical progression. No matter what is the reasoning behind them. Exotics, dungeons or whatever else do not change the nature of what ascended gear is and how it functions within the game. Motivation behind its introduction has nothing to do with what "it" is and how it functions in the game.

    I would like to point out that using vertical progression as a general term makes this discussion seem like a discussion about polar opposites and extremes. It seems to me that community here on the forums very often speaks in complete opposites and extremes which leaves no room for compromise and thus quality feedback/suggestions to the developers.
    Just because someone is in favour of some form of vertical progression it doesn't mean that they are automatically advocating for extremely eccessive WoW type gear grind of vertical progression. As a matter of fact, it doesnt even have to be new "tier" of gear type, nor does it have to be something related to attributes. There are countless ways to customize and optimize your character in a MMO besides just grinding for that 7% increase to basic attributes. Also, additional leveling up doesn't need to be necessarily introduced for additional optimization to be introduced.

    People who are already doing content where vertical progression would play a role wouldn't really even notice it as they would simply get it from the content that they are doing anyway.
    People who are not motivated to do the end game content might become motivated to do so, resulting in the overall fuller end game community.
    People who are neither interested in the content or the progression would not feel a single change to their playstyle as it is completely facultative.
    Its a win-win-win situation. Why be against even considering this?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    The main difference here is this though:
    Player A came to Guild Wars not wanting a holy trinity and permanent gear grind.
    Player B did not come to Guild Wars since the initial concept did not interest him.

    Thats a slight assumption. For example, me and most of my RL friends played GW1 and bought Gw2 either at launch or very close to launch. And lack of holy trinity and pve grind was never on our list of reasons for buying or playing the game. But it was reason for most of them to quit and for me to periodically quit and return to the game. I am willing to bet that there is way more players that would be motivated by some kind of vertical progression than many are willing to admit here.

    So your friends fit right into the group of players who didn't stick with the game.

    What makes your and their desire more valuable or more of a consideration then people who enjoy the current system?

    Also, ascended gear and fractals are an example of post launch vertical progression. No matter what is the reasoning behind them. Exotics, dungeons or whatever else do not change the nature of what ascended gear is and how it functions within the game. Motivation behind its introduction has nothing to do with what "it" is and how it functions in the game.

    The introduction of ascended was received with a lot of hate. Almost on the level of HoT and GW2 base game going free.

    I would like to point out that using vertical progression as a general term makes this discussion seem like a discussion about polar opposites and extremes. It seems to me that community here on the forums very often speaks in complete opposites and extremes which leaves no room for compromise and thus quality feedback/suggestions to the developers.

    Vertical progression or horizontal progression are polar opposites if implemented in the way most people are referring to them.

    Just because someone is in favour of some form of vertical progression it doesn't mean that they are automatically advocating for extremely eccessive WoW type gear grind of vertical progression. As a matter of fact, it doesnt even have to be new "tier" of gear type, nor does it have to be something related to attributes. There are countless ways to customize and optimize your character in a MMO besides just grinding for that 7% increase to basic attributes. Also, additional leveling up doesn't need to be necessarily introduced for additional optimization to be introduced.

    We have a level system which is removed from vertical gear progression. It's called masteries. Sure, slight vertical progression would tick less people off (potentially) and it would not be enough for many who want serious vertical progression.

    People who are already doing content where vertical progression would play a role wouldn't really even notice it as they would simply get it from the content that they are doing anyway.

    There is no content with vertical progression. Exotic gear costs nothing. Even ascended gear takes less time to acquire than mid level gear in any other MMO.

    People who are not motivated to do the end game content might become motivated to do so, resulting in the overall fuller end game community.
    People who are neither interested in the content or the progression would not feel a single change to their playstyle as it is completely facultative.
    Its a win-win-win situation. Why be against even considering this?

    You are leaving out the people who are doing endgame content right now but are unwilling to have to re-gear.

    I wouldn't be in favor of vertical progression and trust me, it would likely not even affect me since I am decked out in legendary gear on multiple characters with bank tabs full of ascended.

    Most people who are against vertical progression have played MMOs with it in the past and have either moved beyond wanting this or never enjoyed it in the first place.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    So your friends fit right into the group of players who didn't stick with the game.

    What makes your and their desire more valuable or more of a consideration then people who enjoy the current system?

    I have never said that someones desire or opinions about the game are more valid than others. I have said that your presentation of "Player A" is not completely true.

    Also, ascended gear and fractals are an example of post launch vertical progression. No matter what is the reasoning behind them. Exotics, dungeons or whatever else do not change the nature of what ascended gear is and how it functions within the game. Motivation behind its introduction has nothing to do with what "it" is and how it functions in the game.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Vertical progression or horizontal progression are polar opposites if implemented in the way most people are referring to them.

    Not what I am talking about. I am saying that people are talking about idea of vertical progression in its extremes. Horizontal progression has nothing to do with it.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have a level system which is removed from vertical gear progression. It's called masteries. Sure, slight vertical progression would tick less people off (potentially) and it would not be enough for many who want serious vertical progression.

    Not sure what you are trying to say or how is it related to my statement

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    People who are already doing content where vertical progression would play a role wouldn't really even notice it as they would simply get it from the content that they are doing anyway.

    Fractals and raids introduce elements of vertical progression through ascended gear. And also, this is the point I am trying to make with the addition that it would motivate more players to do end game. Which is a bonus. If content remains popular for people already doing it its only a bonus if it can motivate new people to join.
    >

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are leaving out the people who are doing endgame content right now but are unwilling to have to re-gear.

    These are literally the first players i have mentioned. If you are already doing end game PvE you have nothing to loose if raid boss drops you a new item for example. Raid boss that you are already doing anyway. Willingness to re-gear has nothing to do with it since it is content that you are doing anyway. If you dislike the new feature dont useit. It's not hindering you to do the content or anything. I have also explicitly stated that it doesn't need to be excessive gearing nor that it has to be gearing at all.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I wouldn't be in favor of vertical progression and trust me, it would likely not even affect me since I am decked out in legendary gear on multiple characters with bank tabs full of ascended.

    Most people who are against vertical progression have played MMOs with it in the past and have either moved beyond wanting this or never enjoyed it in the first place.

    These statements make me 100% percent that we are not talking about same thing at all.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    So your friends fit right into the group of players who didn't stick with the game.

    What makes your and their desire more valuable or more of a consideration then people who enjoy the current system?

    I have never said that someones desire or opinions about the game are more valid than others. I have said that your presentation of "Player A" is not completely true.

    Also, ascended gear and fractals are an example of post launch vertical progression. No matter what is the reasoning behind them. Exotics, dungeons or whatever else do not change the nature of what ascended gear is and how it functions within the game. Motivation behind its introduction has nothing to do with what "it" is and how it functions in the game.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Vertical progression or horizontal progression are polar opposites if implemented in the way most people are referring to them.

    Not what I am talking about. I am saying that people are talking about idea of vertical progression in its extremes. Horizontal progression has nothing to do with it.

    and I'm telling you, it makes no difference to which extreme or not extreme you take this idea. In some cases it will not be enough and will not satisfy some players, for other it will be already to much. The distinction of "how much" gear grind is acceptable is not consequential since you will have players along the entire spectrum.

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    People who are already doing content where vertical progression would play a role wouldn't really even notice it as they would simply get it from the content that they are doing anyway.

    Fractals and raids introduce elements of vertical progression through ascended gear. And also, this is the point I am trying to make with the addition that it would motivate more players to do end game. Which is a bonus. If content remains popular for people already doing it its only a bonus if it can motivate new people to join.
    >

    No they did not. Ascended gear is max level gear and it is not in any way locked behind fractals or raids. Please don't make things up. The only lockout progression is for fractal participation in form of agony resistance and even that is a one time purchase and then it's over. That's not vertical progression. That's a lockout mechanic.

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are leaving out the people who are doing endgame content right now but are unwilling to have to re-gear.

    These are literally the first players i have mentioned. If you are already doing end game PvE you have nothing to loose if raid boss drops you a new item for example. Raid boss that you are already doing anyway. Willingness to re-gear has nothing to do with it since it is content that you are doing anyway. If you dislike the new feature dont useit. It's not hindering you to do the content or anything. I have also explicitly stated that it doesn't need to be excessive gearing nor that it has to be gearing at all.

    Yes I do, because I don't want to have to re-gear OR re-anything. Neither do others. I enjoy being able to work on different builds, different play-styles without having to worry that in x months time I will have to get new gear. I do not need external motivators like forced gear grind or gear depreciation to remain interested in the game. I have had that in the past, I enjoy not having to do that again.

    It does not matter how excessive gearing it is. Gear depreciation or further tiers means that after x amount of time, players are forced to spend resources to remain at the top gear level. This is not desired.

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I wouldn't be in favor of vertical progression and trust me, it would likely not even affect me since I am decked out in legendary gear on multiple characters with bank tabs full of ascended.

    Most people who are against vertical progression have played MMOs with it in the past and have either moved beyond wanting this or never enjoyed it in the first place.

    These statements make me 100% percent that we are not talking about same thing at all.

    We are, you simply do not want to understand that there is players who enjoy not having to worry about gear or gear depreciation. If I wanted gear grind, I can get that in any other MMO, some of them even up to 12 hour per day jobs worth of dedication.

    I fully understand why you want gear tier and grind. I understand why people are drawn to this carrot on a stick, I do not have to agree with it but I can fully well accept that a vast majority of MMOs take this path to keep players motivated. You seem to not understand that there is people who do not want or need this, and they are happy in GW2 and have been happy in GW2 for close to 6 years by now.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    First of all I just wanna say that you should definitely read my posts at least a few times since this is already XYZ time that you are completely misinterpreting me, misquoting me or accusing me of having opinions I have never presented.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    and I'm telling you, it makes no difference to which extreme or not extreme you take this idea. In some cases it will not be enough and will not satisfy some players, for other it will be already to much. The distinction of "how much" gear grind is acceptable is not consequential since you will have players along the entire spectrum.

    You are a priori against any form of change, no matter how small it may be and are automatically grouping the mildest of change into same category as the most extreme change.

    And yes, "how much" is the most important aspect of these entire issue and it is consequential. You simply proclaiming it isn't doesn't make it so. Reason why it is consequential is because it creates a ratio of people who enjoy it vs those who don't enjoy it or those who are neutral. Just because there will always be number of people that dislike it means little if there is larger number of people that like it and game is overall better off. How excessive certain policy is is directly consequential to its success and acceptance in population. And pretending that small number of people liking/disliking something is the same as if large number of people like/dislike it is just dishonest.

    Also, for third time now. It DOES NOT need to be in form of new gear. Stop ignoring this part.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No they did not. Ascended gear is max level gear and it is not in any way locked behind fractals or raids. Please don't make things up. The only lockout progression is for fractal participation in form of agony resistance and even that is a one time purchase and then it's over. That's not vertical progression. That's a lockout mechanic.

    Only person that should stop making things up here is you. I have never said that ascended is locked behind fractals or raids nor is that in any way relevant to ascended gear being form of vertical item progression. Locking out has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Lock out is also mechanism of AR, while the change in stats that ascended items give is very obvious example of vertical item progression. Ascended gear is going to provide you with vertical item progression even if you never step foot into fractals. Just because its max level gear doesn't change that.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes I do, because I don't want to have to re-gear OR re-anything. Neither do others. I enjoy being able to work on different builds, different play-styles without having to worry that in x months time I will have to get new gear. I do not need external motivators like forced gear grind or gear depreciation to remain interested in the game. I have had that in the past, I enjoy not having to do that again.

    Thats great, because I have never said that you HAVE to do anything. As a matter of fact I have explicitly stated that its completely optional. Argument about gear depriciation and re-gearing in X months have literally nothing to do with anything that I am saying. I have never said that you would have to get new gear. As a matter of fact, I keep saying that it doesn't have to be gear.

    Also, stop being dishonest. This idea that you would somehow be forced into constant grind every few months is true only if they introduce very heavy gear vertical progression with new raids that correspond to new gear. Which I have never advocated for. You keep presenting my opinions as I am advocating for a WoW style progression where every few months you get a new raid with new tier of gear. Even though I have gone out of my way to say that I dont think vertical progression needs to be done that way.

    Not to mention how the argument is weird since people who don't have legenderies have to re-gear when the new meta comes out or they wish to play different spec, sometimes completely. Re-gearing is for vast number of people completely normal thing in this game.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It does not matter how excessive gearing it is. Gear depreciation or further tiers means that after x amount of time, players are forced to spend resources to remain at the top gear level. This is not desired.

    It absolutely does matter. How excessive something is is important in every aspect of life and existence. Stop pretending that implementation of 1 change in 6 years is somehow same to 3 changes in 1 year. It's not. It's perfectly fine to say that vertical progression is garbage and you dislike it, but stop pretending that nuance and layers don't exist.

    And for like fourth time. It doesn't need to be gear progression

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We are, you simply do not want to understand that there is players who enjoy not having to worry about gear or gear depreciation. If I wanted gear grind, I can get that in any other MMO, some of them even up to 12 hour per day jobs worth of dedication.

    I fully understand why you want gear tier and grind. I understand why people are drawn to this carrot on a stick, I do not have to agree with it but I can fully well accept that a vast majority of MMOs take this path to keep players motivated. You seem to not understand that there is people who do not want or need this, and they are happy in GW2 and have been happy in GW2 for close to 6 years by now.

    10/10 Ad hominem. I have at no point displayed lack of understanding for those that don't wish to see change. Presenting my own opinions and arguments =/= refusal to acknowledge existence of other side. Just because i refuse to conform to your viewpoint doesn't mean I refuse to accept there are players who prefer things otherwise. or that I am uncapable of coming to terms that there are players who think that way. But most importantly, this was never an issue so I honestly don't understand why is that important. In all honesty, I think you should re-read that very same passage you wrote.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    First of all I just wanna say that you should definitely read my posts at least a few times since this is already XYZ time that you are completely misinterpreting me, misquoting me or accusing me of having opinions I have never presented.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    and I'm telling you, it makes no difference to which extreme or not extreme you take this idea. In some cases it will not be enough and will not satisfy some players, for other it will be already to much. The distinction of "how much" gear grind is acceptable is not consequential since you will have players along the entire spectrum.

    You are a priori against any form of change, no matter how small it may be and are automatically grouping the mildest of change into same category as the most extreme change.

    And yes, "how much" is the most important aspect of these entire issue and it is consequential. You simply proclaiming it isn't doesn't make it so. Reason why it is consequential is because it creates a ratio of people who enjoy it vs those who don't enjoy it or those who are neutral. Just because there will always be number of people that dislike it means little if there is larger number of people that like it and game is overall better off. How excessive certain policy is is directly consequential to its success and acceptance in population. And pretending that small number of people liking/disliking something is the same as if large number of people like/dislike it is just dishonest.

    Also, for third time now. It DOES NOT need to be in form of new gear. Stop ignoring this part.

    We HAVE vertical non gear related progression. It's called masteries. How is this so hard to understand. You might not be advocating for constant gear progression, others are. You might be in favor of light vertical progression, who is stopping the next player of coming in and saying:"Well this is nice, but I would like even more vertical progression." That more hardcore vertical gear progression player is to you what you are to me and thus we could go on for ever on what some player wants.

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No they did not. Ascended gear is max level gear and it is not in any way locked behind fractals or raids. Please don't make things up. The only lockout progression is for fractal participation in form of agony resistance and even that is a one time purchase and then it's over. That's not vertical progression. That's a lockout mechanic.

    Only person that should stop making things up here is you. I have never said that ascended is locked behind fractals or raids nor is that in any way relevant to ascended gear being form of vertical item progression. Locking out has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Lock out is also mechanism of AR, while the change in stats that ascended items give is very obvious example of vertical item progression. Ascended gear is going to provide you with vertical item progression even if you never step foot into fractals. Just because its max level gear doesn't change that.

    You literally right above my reply:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Fractals and raids introduce elements of vertical progression through ascended gear.

    Fractals and raids did not introduce ascended gear. Yes, ascended gear is vertical progression from the past. The outrage about it being introduced was huge. There is no reason to assume any further increase would be any different.

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes I do, because I don't want to have to re-gear OR re-anything. Neither do others. I enjoy being able to work on different builds, different play-styles without having to worry that in x months time I will have to get new gear. I do not need external motivators like forced gear grind or gear depreciation to remain interested in the game. I have had that in the past, I enjoy not having to do that again.

    Thats great, because I have never said that you HAVE to do anything. As a matter of fact I have explicitly stated that its completely optional. Argument about gear depriciation and re-gearing in X months have literally nothing to do with anything that I am saying. I have never said that you would have to get new gear. As a matter of fact, I keep saying that it doesn't have to be gear.

    Great, we have that already in form of masteries and elite specializations. Non gear dependent vertical progression.

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Also, stop being dishonest. This idea that you would somehow be forced into constant grind every few months is true only if they introduce very heavy gear vertical progression with new raids that correspond to new gear. Which I have never advocated for. You keep presenting my opinions as I am advocating for a WoW style progression where every few months you get a new raid with new tier of gear. Even though I have gone out of my way to say that I dont think vertical progression needs to be done that way.

    Not to mention how the argument is weird since people who don't have legenderies have to re-gear when the new meta comes out or they wish to play different spec, sometimes completely. Re-gearing is for vast number of people completely normal thing in this game.

    I'm being dishonest? What happens once you hit the new maximum vertical progression? What happens to people who crave vertical progression once they reach the cap? They crave more. So this topic will rear its ugly head again and people will demand more vertical progression. Somehow I don't think you understand how this cycle works.

    Yes, people can re-gear, at a tiny fraction of the cost of getting the gear. A fair compromise between legendary gear and ascended.

    We have had this discussion yearly by now and it always coincided with a large fraction of WoW players coming over to GW2 and wanting to change things here while waiting on a new WoW expansion. Only difference this time is that the last WoW expansion tanked and people came over a lot earlier.

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It does not matter how excessive gearing it is. Gear depreciation or further tiers means that after x amount of time, players are forced to spend resources to remain at the top gear level. This is not desired.

    It absolutely does matter. How excessive something is is important in every aspect of life and existence. Stop pretending that implementation of 1 change in 6 years is somehow same to 3 changes in 1 year. It's not. It's perfectly fine to say that vertical progression is garbage and you dislike it, but stop pretending that nuance and layers don't exist.

    Who gets to decide how much vertical progression is good? You? Me? The person who wants vertical progression every 6 months? The person who wants vertical progression every 12 months? The person demanding vertical progression every 2 weeks?

    I have been saying vertical progression is garbage for GW2 and that I believe the vast majority of the current players who have enjoyed the game for over 6 years would not like it, you just keep ignoring me saying this and the reasons I have given.

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    And for like fourth time. It doesn't need to be gear progression

    and for the 4th time, we already have that non gear related vertical progression.

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We are, you simply do not want to understand that there is players who enjoy not having to worry about gear or gear depreciation. If I wanted gear grind, I can get that in any other MMO, some of them even up to 12 hour per day jobs worth of dedication.

    I fully understand why you want gear tier and grind. I understand why people are drawn to this carrot on a stick, I do not have to agree with it but I can fully well accept that a vast majority of MMOs take this path to keep players motivated. You seem to not understand that there is people who do not want or need this, and they are happy in GW2 and have been happy in GW2 for close to 6 years by now.

    10/10 Ad hominem. I have at no point displayed lack of understanding for those that don't wish to see change. Presenting my own opinions and arguments =/= refusal to acknowledge existence of other side. Just because i refuse to conform to your viewpoint doesn't mean I refuse to accept there are players who prefer things otherwise. or that I am uncapable of coming to terms that there are players who think that way. But most importantly, this was never an issue so I honestly don't understand why is that important. In all honesty, I think you should re-read that very same passage you wrote.

    Great, so you understand that there is players who are against vertical gear progression and have been for over 6 years (some even longer coming from GW1). I don't need you to conform to my view point. If you enjoy vertical progression that is fine and great. I did in the past too. Accept that many in GW2 do not and move on.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is lots of vertical progression. You work to increase your gold level (<- vertical progression), you use the gold to buy gems, then you buy skins to win Fashion Wars.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭

    With the last news about the mass layoffs I don't think we'll see any expansions until 2020.

    Or if we do it will prolly be something rushed to increase the selling numbers and then it'll take an year of bug fixes for to be what it was supposed to be.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    I have to say im not a fan of the barriers either. I would like to go druid but it would take me months to get harriers, and thats not fun. I would like to be able to play druid since i have all the traits. Just will be seriously unwanted without full harriers. All games have roadblocks its how they keep you playing, but i think putting up blocks to playing a spec is a bit much. Ascended is a pita to get to, even crafting it takes a buttload of money and time.

  • Amineo.8951Amineo.8951 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    With the last news about the mass layoffs I don't think we'll see any expansions until 2020.

    Or if we do it will prolly be something rushed to increase the selling numbers and then it'll take an year of bug fixes for to be what it was supposed to be.

    Not 2020 but 2021, it takes 1,5 to 2 years to finish a Living Story Season unless the number of episodes is reduced for Season 5.

    For real though, the next expansion will be the last one and I doubt there's gonna be a Season 6 after, we're already short in terms of regions to explore and maps remaining.

  • Probably going to be maintenance mode after season 5, we won't really get any heads up since Anet can't communicate.

  • Nemmar.8491Nemmar.8491 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?

    I think you are a bit confused.
    The F2P players are not at all profitable. Only the whales are. They are the ones that keep the game afloat.
    Sure, you can just keep relying on micro-transactions from whales while the world keeps losing population, or you can think about capturing a wider paying audience.

    Alienating the F2P players is far from a big loss, not that it needs to happen. Gaining a more stable revenue source sounds like a better business decision to me. You want players playing your game, to be engaged, or they won't really be spending money. For that, you need compelling recurring gameplay. That is what GW2 lacks. The world exploration and the story missions are entertaining, but they last a couple of days at best. The instanced repeatable gameplay loses it's appeal quickly when there's no character progression.

    I am surprised you think so little of the team and the GW IP, that you think it wouldn't have a chance versus other MMO's in the market. I disagree with that.

    But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

    An expansion or large patch would be the perfect opportunity to bring such a system in.

    Two missconceptions:

    A.) all whale players would want vertical progression.
    B.) a game which has only 1-10% of its player base is lucrative or sees play.

    The rest is heavy biased subjective OPINION.

    You are the odd apple out. I guarantee you, with the current player base, introducing vertical progression would hit a lot more nerves than people who agree. I ask again: why would any sensible company risk this? (especially with past experiences, like when ascended got introduced).

    This has nothing to do with what I think or believe. It's simple market analysis and sensible competitive selection. You can try to butter up nonsense as much as you like. A certain player type was drawn to GW2, and many of them enjoy the non vertical progressive nature. You are literally not seeing the big picture due to personal bias.

    Well... i guess that after the recent news, my position was more realistic. Wether it's the majority or not. I guess it says everything.
    Guild wars needs better retention systems and gameplay/payment options. Or i guess we can all continue to pretend everything is alright as Anet downsizes and eventually gets shut down by NCsoft. Money m'boy. You gotta follow it. GW2 isn't making enough of it. And honestly, i would rather lootboxes not be the solution as that won't work long term either.

    So, disagree all you want, say it's my opinion all you want and say that i am a minority all you want. Reality stands with me. Your stubbornness is risking the future of Guild Wars. It's time to admit it has to change before it's too late.

    What are you smoking? If at all the recent news (if you are up to date) clearly indicates that non GW2 related projects are iced....

    Aka, a refocus on GW2 and making money off of that and certainly not alienate that fan base.

    EDIT: since you added things:

    You did read that non GW2 related projects were cancelled? What Arenanet will likely do is focus on monetizing GW2 WITHIN the scope of its strengths. If you think this means gear progression, you are out of your mind.

    You obviously don't get what is going on. Non related projects are cancelled cause they don't have money to carry them out. GW2 is all they got. They backed themselves into a corner. Can you not see? If GW2 doesn't turn around and start making a lot of money, it's the end. Again, with the stubbornness. You will take it all the way to closure won't you? I really don't want to talk with you anymore. I actually love GW more and want it to carry on.

  • Nemmar.8491Nemmar.8491 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

    So, you want for people to be able to just jump in, and have fun, and you disliked grinding for Ascension equipment - yet you still advocate for more gear grind? Makes perfect sense yea :D

    I resent gear grind approach, I would quit the game if it would start to force me to constantly grind for anything at all, I hate grinding and farming. And as for progression, I think masteries is more than enough for that. It's a system which can be re-used many times, for each huge region added via expansion. If done right, like in HoT (and even better), you find yourself on a new map, totally unprepared for it, and slowly "learn your surroundings", getting more abilities to navigate it and access content there, getting better at some gameplay elements which only make sense in this particular region.

    I would even go further, making it a region-specific part of your build. Like, assuming you are going to Maguma jungle, you are opening a new window, and assign certain Masteries to certain mastery slots, which define how well you are adjusted to this environment. I.e. it would be a separate mastery trait line, so, in case of HoT maps for example, you wouldn't be able to always have full access to all gliding features and shrooms features at the same time, and would have to cut corners.

    Then the same approach could be brought to Fractals and Raids, making all those "Mastery traits" mean something for a group of players as well. Like, if one takes certain gliding abilities, they can propagate it to a few other players close to them, so they won't need to take it themselves, and could slot some other mastery which in its turn can be shared across the group. You got the idea. Some masteries could be only allowed to be chosen by one of the group members, like, for example, certain mounts giving you too much advantage on this map; so if your group need access to it, a dedicated member on your group will need to handle it. Adding more challenging content to Raids / Fractals requiring you to be good at using mounts would help here as well.

    I mean, i shouldn't even bother to explain basic things to people.
    Vertical progression allows things like for example being able to get ascended gear with the living map currencies and have the end-game gear drop from the actual greastest challenge in the game. This is not "grind", it's called PROGRESSION. It populates both the outer world and the instanced world. Wich is what GW2 does not have and needs. At this point, to get into end-content you need to have an ascended set already, wich takes weeks to get, after wich you don't even need to do end-game content at all, cause there is no more progression. Why is this so difficult to understand? I know you guys are probably still here cause you don't care. But, most people do.
    Btw masteries are mostly useless. No one keeps playing cause of those. They are flavor. Nice idea, but they don't replace a progression system.

    Like for example a new player that want to come in and tank or heal for their guild. Do you know how much work they have to put in before they can? Exotic gear is useless. It's missing important stats like concentration. You cannot perform your job efficiently without the proper gear. So, the player either stays in a grind for weeks to craft that gear only to no longer have rewards to look forward to, or just gives up and leaves. I honestly don't care that you refuse to see reality. It is still reality.

    The game needs to change or it will die. It's that simple. If you prefer it dies, so be it. It's your prerogative. You want to go down with the ship. Well... i want to try and save it. Thus i left different feedback. Deal with it.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    @Nemmar.8491 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    The advantages of vertical progression is that your character grows in strength. You want to go into the next raid/dungeon because it will progress your character. Character progression reaches a halt in horizontal progression. At that point you go for cosmetics. But, what if you already got the cosmetic you want? Then you have no incentive to keep playing. There needs to be a carrot on a stick to keep players playing.
    Hmm i didn't really mention leveling. Though i guess increasing levels with expansions would be an idea to differentiate the gear tiers in zones. Honestly, it's just like the game already works. There wouldn't be any change.

    No there doesn't, at least not for every game (in form of constant gear grind). GW2 has a USP in this area. If you need a carrot on a stick to keep playing the game, you are not the target audience.

    Going down the same road as every single other MMO does only 2 things:

    • alienate part of your core player base
    • offer game play to a segment of players which could go to any other MMO thus putting you in direct competition for those players

    Why in their right mind would ANY developer decide to go down this road?

    I think you are a bit confused.
    The F2P players are not at all profitable. Only the whales are. They are the ones that keep the game afloat.
    Sure, you can just keep relying on micro-transactions from whales while the world keeps losing population, or you can think about capturing a wider paying audience.

    Alienating the F2P players is far from a big loss, not that it needs to happen. Gaining a more stable revenue source sounds like a better business decision to me. You want players playing your game, to be engaged, or they won't really be spending money. For that, you need compelling recurring gameplay. That is what GW2 lacks. The world exploration and the story missions are entertaining, but they last a couple of days at best. The instanced repeatable gameplay loses it's appeal quickly when there's no character progression.

    I am surprised you think so little of the team and the GW IP, that you think it wouldn't have a chance versus other MMO's in the market. I disagree with that.

    But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase". It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know. I don't understand why everything in this game has to be a barrier to fun. Ascended gear is necessary to even attempt many of the meta builds. It's such a huge barrier to just want to decide to heal, for example. It takes you weeks of grinding, crafting and collecting just to get to the fun part, and when you do, you have no reason to continue. It's just not fun. I know many players out there felt the same way and such a system would exactly be what the game needs to be more accessible, immediately fun and to have compelling progression.

    An expansion or large patch would be the perfect opportunity to bring such a system in.

    Two missconceptions:

    A.) all whale players would want vertical progression.
    B.) a game which has only 1-10% of its player base is lucrative or sees play.

    The rest is heavy biased subjective OPINION.

    You are the odd apple out. I guarantee you, with the current player base, introducing vertical progression would hit a lot more nerves than people who agree. I ask again: why would any sensible company risk this? (especially with past experiences, like when ascended got introduced).

    This has nothing to do with what I think or believe. It's simple market analysis and sensible competitive selection. You can try to butter up nonsense as much as you like. A certain player type was drawn to GW2, and many of them enjoy the non vertical progressive nature. You are literally not seeing the big picture due to personal bias.

    Well... i guess that after the recent news, my position was more realistic. Wether it's the majority or not. I guess it says everything.
    Guild wars needs better retention systems and gameplay/payment options. Or i guess we can all continue to pretend everything is alright as Anet downsizes and eventually gets shut down by NCsoft. Money m'boy. You gotta follow it. GW2 isn't making enough of it. And honestly, i would rather lootboxes not be the solution as that won't work long term either.

    So, disagree all you want, say it's my opinion all you want and say that i am a minority all you want. Reality stands with me. Your stubbornness is risking the future of Guild Wars. It's time to admit it has to change before it's too late.

    What are you smoking? If at all the recent news (if you are up to date) clearly indicates that non GW2 related projects are iced....

    Aka, a refocus on GW2 and making money off of that and certainly not alienate that fan base.

    EDIT: since you added things:

    You did read that non GW2 related projects were cancelled? What Arenanet will likely do is focus on monetizing GW2 WITHIN the scope of its strengths. If you think this means gear progression, you are out of your mind.

    You obviously don't get what is going on. Non related projects are cancelled cause they don't have money to carry them out. GW2 is all they got. They backed themselves into a corner. Can you not see? If GW2 doesn't turn around and start making a lot of money, it's the end. Again, with the stubbornness. You will take it all the way to closure won't you? I really don't want to talk with you anymore. I actually love GW more and want it to carry on.

    Non related projects got cancelled because NCSoft disagreed that Arenanet used to much money on unrelated GW2 projects which they do not believe in (NCSoft). So they are ordering cost cutting measures and merging publishing back into NCSoft to have better control over this. At the same time they are ordering layoffs in non GW2 related areas.

    GW2 is fine financially. It made around 17 million in profit last year and given that a lot of the revenue generated was used to fund non GW2 related projects, one can assume that pure profit without those expenses would have been higher.

    Then don't talk to me. I couldn't care less, but at least get your facts strait.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    With the current goings-on, it is even more important to have this question answered. The latest update post was vague in that regard. If the future of the game will be only LW and other updates like that - with no expansions, no reworking of old content, and no engine updates in the long run - then there is no use to keep playing (at least for me).

    What they need to do now is sit down and have a serious discussion about the future of the game. The game still has not lived up to its full potential, and releasing the same sort of mediocre content feels stale and IMO is not the way to go.

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well I don't expect it will be Cantha.

  • @bbop.9706 said:
    If there is no expansion then there will be a mass exodus. Then after that it will be a dwindling player base of loyal die-hards.

    No expansion = RIP GW2.

    I sincerely hope that is not the case since i have invested a lot of time and money into this game and i love it :(

    There is no expansion. If there is even half of an expansion, the lay offs wouldn't be necessary. They(Anet) bet on a bad horse. We(players) lost.

  • I think everyone is underestimating the resource power GW2 has and still has going forward. All one has to do is look at the current upcoming offerings for MMO's to know that there is nothing even close to GW2 on the horizon. Many people talk about MMO's dying off but there will always be a strong market for MMO players, maybe not as voracious as it once was but it will always be there. GW2 is very viable for several more expansions and the fact that they have cancelled the other projects and they have restructured the company with intentions of maintaining GW2 where else do you think the remaining personnel will be working?

    As I've said in other posts, the best thing that can happen is for them to reiterate the commitments to the title and do so soon to ease players minds and lay out their prospective future plans for the game. After spending hours looking at available MMO's and upcoming MMO's there is very little out there today or in the future for people who enjoy this type of game.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:
    I think everyone is underestimating the resource power GW2 has and still has going forward. All one has to do is look at the current upcoming offerings for MMO's to know that there is nothing even close to GW2 on the horizon. Many people talk about MMO's dying off but there will always be a strong market for MMO players, maybe not as voracious as it once was but it will always be there. GW2 is very viable for several more expansions and the fact that they have cancelled the other projects and they have restructured the company with intentions of maintaining GW2 where else do you think the remaining personnel will be working?

    As I've said in other posts, the best thing that can happen is for them to reiterate the commitments to the title and do so soon to ease players minds and lay out their prospective future plans for the game. After spending hours looking at available MMO's and upcoming MMO's there is very little out there today or in the future for people who enjoy this type of game.

    Well, I think to your statement about remaining personnel, many people are concerned that some of the personnel that were moved to those other projects were originally working on Guild Wars 2. With them announcing the immediate transition into Season 5 from Season 4, there's speculation that instead of that being a move to create more time for the expansion team to have extra time to develop and polish, it was more an indication of there not being an expansion in the works at all. That would, to me, imply that perhaps the way they have the living story team set up currently which seems to be not quite the amount of personnel or the right team up for optimal quality, are the only ones producing future content outside of the specialized teams. Obviously the decisions they make when laying people off is going to be to lay off some of the weaker developers and non-necessary developer personnel which means the stronger ones on those other projects could come back and lead to an increase in quality and perhaps a more desirable cadence, but just saying that the focus is being put solely on Guild Wars 2 doesn't guarantee that we'll see any drastic improvements or even sustainability whether they have financial stability or not. And regardless of that, these recent events will still have an impact overall because it will undoubtedly result in some more shuffling and restructuring that may hinder things for awhile.

    I definitely agree on that part though, because an update stating that something that's already been in production is still on track, doesn't say much that we couldn't answer for ourselves. I don't think anyone expected an immediate shut down of servers or for them to cancel the content they've already spent months working on and immediately shift into maintenance mode.

    Honestly, I don't play any other games because when I find the time to do so, this is the only one I really need. And if this were done, my time with MMO's in general would probably just come to an end. I definitely hope that we actually finally see a benefit from the upcoming restructuring though. Because, assuming it wasn't just to cover up resources being pulled behind the scenes, we've already seen quite a bit of restructuring and "improvements" being made to the benefit of the future with this season alone... and it seems to have shaken things up quite a bit each time as well as not provided a noticeable difference to me at least. And ultimately, I think that's more a case of someone or someones being in a position to make decisions that shouldn't be making decisions because they seem to be a little more business oriented than they are passionate about the game we know and love. Whether these people are directly within ArenaNet or simply NCSoft dictators, it's hard to tell. And of course these people are necessary to run a business successfully, but perhaps they're just a little too distanced or disconnected from the franchise to make the right decisions.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nemmar.8491 said:
    I think you are a bit confused.
    The F2P players are not at all profitable.

    I think you are confused here. The f2p players are immensely profitable - just in an indirect way. How, you say, if they won't pay a dime? Simple - they make the paying players stay, by giving the game an image of being alive. They also attract more players, some of whose may end up being paying ones.

    It's simple as that. A visibly dying game will hemorrhage players, while a thriving, live one will attract them. And the main difference between those is the population numbers. In order to keep the paying players from living, you need to keep the population numbers high. Even if it means keeping a lot of f2p players.

    Only the whales are. They are the ones that keep the game afloat.

    No whale is going to stay in a game that has only whales left.

    But, i have to say that i don't understand why vertical progression means "alienating the playerbase".

    Because a lot of the playerbase got attracted to this game specifically because of no vertical progression, and would leave in a heartbeat if it got introduced.

    It would give the game a much more vibrant dynamic where maps can feel as rewarding as season 3's were (thinking of the snow one mostly) and the later gear can be achieved from actual gameplay rather than crafting or a complex and costly collection. People just want to jump in and have fun you know.

    ...you are contradicting yourself. Gear progression is anything except being able to jump in and have fun, because you need to follow the whole progression first.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

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