Raids and discrimination. - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Fractals/Dungeons/Strike Missions/Raids

Raids and discrimination.

13

Comments

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sarkysek.1085 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @sarkysek.1085 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @sarkysek.1085 said:
    Delete raids from the game and ban all third-party software users. Case solved nice and easy. Raids have no place in GW2, nor do DPS meters.

    I think We know Your stance on raids :)

    So? I'm allowed to have my personal stance or opinion.

    Sure, but having a stance does not automatically protect you from ridicule, especially when it is such an outlandish one. How about we start with removing all the bots in spvp, before we turn on things like arcdps. Maybe tighten up the leniency on afking in spvp matches for rewards while we are at it.

    @sarkysek.1085 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Xervite.5493 said:

    @Cameron.6450 said:

    @sarkysek.1085 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @sarkysek.1085 said:
    Raids have no place in GW2, they only brought elitism, toxicity and pretended professionalism to the game. But the worst thing is that this ill mentality also spreads to other places within the game, other gamemodes that dont need it and its damaging to them. Raids and those who deem themselves higher human beings just because they play them will never be good for the game. Solution to this is simple: dont add any new raids and stop supporting the existing ones, so that they slowly die just like dungeons did so many years ago. And the toxic elitist mentality will die with them as raiders slowly quit the game.

    Thank you for the laugh.

    You're welcome. But it wasn't intended to be funny. I'm dead serious.

    I think that makes it funnier tbh...

    He speaks the truth though, but I can see why a selective few find it funny.

    what s/he wrote is absolute nonsense.
    This so called "elitism" is in every part of this game. To reply in her/his own language, s/he is just "salty" as hell because reasons, and to call for a mode to be shut down because "i don´t like it" is as "toxic" as it can get.
    Not even to mention the blunt generalization of people that do not share the same mindset/interests that s/he does. That makes this statement even more sour.
    The sad thing is, if s/he would have been part of this raidcommunity s/he so much despices, and "gud" aswell, characteristicly s/he would fall in the small part of said community that makes raids for other people not enjoyable. You good madam/sir make me sick.

    Edit: to clarify, the last part of my comment was adressed to @sarkysek.1085 and not to you personally unless you share the same believes.

    Likewise. People like you are the reason why I'll always boycott raids until they are removed and this toxic behaviour with them.

    Given how you seem fond of spvp and wvw, and given how some of the most toxic behavior in this game is happening especially in spvp. I wonder how you would feel if the tables were turned and pve players showed up in the spvp forums and declared the entire community there toxic and the game mode should get removed. That's literally what you are doing here. Might want to give that some thought.

    Now you might come and argue that not the entire player base playing spvp is toxic and a few bad apples who can't behave are shinning a bad light on the remaining players. Funny enough, I would imagine a few pve raiders might say the same about raids. Go figure.

    1. This thread is about raids, not wvw or spvp. 2. Raids are not a gamemode. They are only a minority part of PvE.

    So you get to be toxic because this thread is about a game mode or part of a game mode you do not enjoy? Seems a wierd justification, but what ever makes you be able to live with yourself.

    Raids are just as much a game mode onto themselves compared to the remaining pve as is high rank Spvp (and tournaments) compared to mid or low tier spvp. Both with unique sets of rules, approach and builds and cooperation not present in lower and more basic brackets.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    so potentially competent newcomers are never given a chance because their inept counterparts have poisoned the well.

    so that have that chance always, make your raid, make your rules, take all cleric thief's and be happy. No one cant say "NO" for that.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    The issues with raids fall down to Anet's design of the game. When the majority of PvE in the game spoon feeds success and asks nothing from the players nor demands that they understand class synergies and optimized rotations, you then have these huge culture shocks with raids and that's where the pain point happens.

    Someone can play up to T4 fractals in their crappy knights/dire/cleric gear or odd trait choice or a greatsword camping mesmer or staff camping minion necro and be unpleasantly surprised when real instanced content demands a group comp where boons are maximized and kept at close to 100% uptime and CC and bursts are coordinated alongside defensive tools to not interrupt DPS.

    I go run Ascalonian Catacombs for some Monk runes for my renegade, and lo and behold I have to constantly scold people to stack by me to get might/heals because they'd rather run around using their ranged autoattacks or pig/bear pets they've gotten used to getting carried on during open world PvE.

    This game really strives to decrease the quality of players participating in endgame content and places few if any pathways within the game to train people to be competent participants in serious endgame PvE.

    And then what happens is that so many people are so utterly incompetent that the trust of new people in PuG groups is nonexistent, so you get all these exaggerated requirements to participate in content to make sure you are filtering out blatantly inept players to save time on trivial wipes, so potentially competent newcomers are never given a chance because their inept counterparts have poisoned the well.

    I largely agree with this, with the caveat (or addition?) that Raids are different from Dungeons solely due to the stricter (but still very lax) time requirements. I don't quite remember a boss in dungeons that couldn't be pushed over and over with full on defenses until you beat it up, whereas raids enforce a minimum damage threshold to be crossed. This is a crucial difference for there to even be a minimum, in spite of it being easy to reach by anyone who gears correctly.

    So Dungeons did have plenty of elitism back then but there was plenty of room for relaxed pug groups that still wanted in the content but didn't mind at all that their runs took up to hours of their time. With raids it's either our way or the highway, and Anet is entirely aware of this

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CountMozenrath.7631 said:
    So I'm new to this raiding thing and wanted to try it out so i can get the "Hateful Sworl" precursor. So There I was after a long day joining a squad doing Hall of Chains and doing my best with my Barrier + Heal Scourge build (I'm a Necro main) ya know keeping people healthy and safe till we got up to Dhuum. So I was like "oh boy this the finally" and I'm being asked what my skill level is... So I told them I was new and got kicked instantly. Ok no biggy I'll find another group, so I joined another one and got kicked within 10 sec just for being a Necro and this happened with 3 other groups as well within 10 min of time. As a person with severe Social Anxiety this is not very motivating. I get insults thrown at me like "Noob go train" or "No Necros, Thieves..." and if I ask them if there is any problem they feel the need to humiliate me even more. Where did I think that interacting with people would go well. It causes me to eat myself up and ask "what did I do wrong ?" or "what could I have done to make it better". I'm just a person that tries to make something out of life after every setback and curve ball, but I guess if you're treated like an outcast in real life it also reflects online and there is no point trying to be something else. Anyone else in the same pandemonium ?

    Toxicity apart, the reason ( and I chose to use the word reason instead of problem/issue, because it's something which is related to simple aspect of the game ) is that players take for granted that everybody knows which is the meta tier, and he has the right class for the right encounter.

    Given a specific challenge, the players will try anything to lower the difficulty of the encounter, which includes:

    • Using voice chat.
    • Using the best build ( Profession, equipment, infusions, food, etc ).
    • Class Swap if needed ( everybody, since the game throws you equipment aoe, many players could bring support to party just by having more classes, and by knowing how they work ).
    • Recruit for the run only experience players ( with many tokens ).
    • Etc...

    If you go not following this pattern, there's a higher possibility of losing time ( because of wipes, due to low dps, low heals, etc ).
    And since the raid is made for up to 10 players, think what could happen if anybody try to play the way he wants.

    At last, this is not a criticism.
    I just explained what players want in order to save time and lower to increase to the top the chance of success.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    The issues with raids fall down to Anet's design of the game. When the majority of PvE in the game spoon feeds success and asks nothing from the players nor demands that they understand class synergies and optimized rotations, you then have these huge culture shocks with raids and that's where the pain point happens.

    Someone can play up to T4 fractals in their crappy knights/dire/cleric gear or odd trait choice or a greatsword camping mesmer or staff camping minion necro and be unpleasantly surprised when real instanced content demands a group comp where boons are maximized and kept at close to 100% uptime and CC and bursts are coordinated alongside defensive tools to not interrupt DPS.

    I go run Ascalonian Catacombs for some Monk runes for my renegade, and lo and behold I have to constantly scold people to stack by me to get might/heals because they'd rather run around using their ranged autoattacks or pig/bear pets they've gotten used to getting carried on during open world PvE.

    This game really strives to decrease the quality of players participating in endgame content and places few if any pathways within the game to train people to be competent participants in serious endgame PvE.

    And then what happens is that so many people are so utterly incompetent that the trust of new people in PuG groups is nonexistent, so you get all these exaggerated requirements to participate in content to make sure you are filtering out blatantly inept players to save time on trivial wipes, so potentially competent newcomers are never given a chance because their inept counterparts have poisoned the well.

    I largely agree with this, with the caveat (or addition?) that Raids are different from Dungeons solely due to the stricter (but still very lax) time requirements. I don't quite remember a boss in dungeons that couldn't be pushed over and over with full on defenses until you beat it up, whereas raids enforce a minimum damage threshold to be crossed. This is a crucial difference for there to even be a minimum, in spite of it being easy to reach by anyone who gears correctly.

    So Dungeons did have plenty of elitism back then but there was plenty of room for relaxed pug groups that still wanted in the content but didn't mind at all that their runs took up to hours of their time. With raids it's either our way or the highway, and Anet is entirely aware of this

    I would say some Arah paths like Priestess of Dwayna (pre-nerf) without proper DPS were a nightmare. Back then healing options were far more limited as well as protection uptime.

    But it's true raids did the sensible thing with lax enrage timers.

  • luzonophir.7134luzonophir.7134 Member ✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019

    well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

    It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @luzonophir.7134 said:
    well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

    It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

    This doesn't make any sense.

  • luzonophir.7134luzonophir.7134 Member ✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @luzonophir.7134 said:
    well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

    It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

    This doesn't make any sense.

    i am not even a native english speaker and i find it lexically sound and even vivid in my head.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @luzonophir.7134 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @luzonophir.7134 said:
    well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

    It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

    This doesn't make any sense.

    i am not a native english speaker and it is lexically sound and even vivid in my head.

    Discrimination is when you unjustly treat someone differently on the basis of something. Like an Egyptian shooting a man from China for simply being from China.

  • luzonophir.7134luzonophir.7134 Member ✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @luzonophir.7134 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @luzonophir.7134 said:
    well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

    It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

    This doesn't make any sense.

    i am not a native english speaker and it is lexically sound and even vivid in my head.

    Discrimination is when you unjustly treat someone differently on the basis of something. Like an Egyptian shooting a man from China for simply being from China.

    tell me why there are multiple entries of MEANINGS of a word in a dictionary.

    if you know, that means your last sentence is really the Egyptian chick took a picture of a man from China coz that Egyptian chick is fascinated and obsessed with that Chinese man who she found handsome.

    and from that, you can vividly visualize what i said 4 levels up from this post.

    and if still all of what i say doesn't make sense..

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @luzonophir.7134 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @luzonophir.7134 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @luzonophir.7134 said:
    well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

    It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

    This doesn't make any sense.

    i am not a native english speaker and it is lexically sound and even vivid in my head.

    Discrimination is when you unjustly treat someone differently on the basis of something. Like an Egyptian shooting a man from China for simply being from China.

    tell me why there are multiple entries of MEANINGS of a word in a dictionary.

    Because nouns, verbs, and adjectives exist dude. Also what you said I guess what is now five posts ago, defies logic because nobody will know who discriminated who, it defeats the purpose of discrimination to begin with! Stop being dumb!

  • @Aridon.8362 said:

    @luzonophir.7134 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @luzonophir.7134 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @luzonophir.7134 said:
    well you can discriminate back, like NOT Playing RAIDS.

    It's the ULTIMATE REKT move coz after RAID groups discriminate on you, you discriminate the whole RAID people back. its like many vs one and to avenge, one vs many ftw.

    This doesn't make any sense.

    i am not a native english speaker and it is lexically sound and even vivid in my head.

    Discrimination is when you unjustly treat someone differently on the basis of something. Like an Egyptian shooting a man from China for simply being from China.

    tell me why there are multiple entries of MEANINGS of a word in a dictionary.

    Because nouns, verbs, and adjectives exist dude. Also what you said I guess what is now five posts ago, defies logic because nobody will know who discriminated who, it defeats the purpose of discrimination to begin with! Stop being dumb!

    if you discriminate against race, you discriminate against a fraction of people from the whole. if you discriminate against a country, that means you hate the people, the statues, the tourist attractions, the ambiance, the flora and fauna of that country. the latter is called BLANKET discrimination.

    So tell me now, what constitutes a RAID map? all that i checked from my 2nd sentence above.

    This means if RAIDS are akin to a country, and if discrimination has a score, your score will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyy higher than people who pinpointly discriminate a certain race.

  • I main necro in raids and ive never been kicked before linking kp or li in 100li groups and 250li ones. Been playing power reaper for the past months and ive never been kicked. Im not SC levels of good but i do my role and i do it well, which is enough for any pug group. Ppl saying necros get kicked constantly is either them lying or not having pugged in their life.

  • Easiest solution for the raiding inaccessibility would be to make it impossible to link li/kp in the chat. As well as any other potentialy abusable items.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    An easy and ultimately pointless solution that would force people to use even more arbitrary means of proving ones experience. We'd either have most groups demand the use of API linking sites or worse have things like asking for AP return.

    Imagine if they removed all inaccessibilities and barriers from any job position in the real world. People would certainly be happy to join the top management without any work, experience or knowledge involved - well, until those companies went bankrupt in droves. There are reasons why there are requirements for certain positions, the game is no expection. The requirements set might not always seem to make sense but why settle for someone good if you can easily have someone great in the current climate?

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • @Henry.5713 said:
    An easy and ultimately pointless solution that would force people to use even more arbitrary means of proving ones experience. We'd either have most groups demand the use of API linking sites or worse have things like asking for AP return.

    Imagine if they removed all inaccessibilities and barriers from any job position in the real world. People would certainly be happy to join the top management without any work, experience or knowledge involved - well, until those companies went bankrupt in droves. There are reasons why there are requirements for certain positions, the game is no expection. The requirements set might not always seem to make sense but why settle for someone good if you can easily have someone great in the current climate?

    3rd party API site would work only if Anet opened the API for them. Also if you have read the EULA. (I guess you did not). Reading informations about other players from API is a bannable offense. So if you use dps meter and kick someone for having low dps could potencialy get you banned.

    Also comparing real world to a game makes no sense. In RW there are serious consequences, like people could get hurt or die. There is no consequence to dying to a boss. This whole argument is irelevant.

    Fact is that something needs to be done to allow more players in raids. You really dont need to kill a boss 250 times to be allowed to raid. Especially since GW2 bosses are insanely easy compared to other mmos.

  • RaidsAreEasyAF.8652RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chrysaliss.8720 said:
    3rd party API site would work only if Anet opened the API for them.

    They do.

    Also if you have read the EULA. (I guess you did not). Reading informations about other players from API is a bannable offense. So if you use dps meter and kick someone >for having low dps could potencialy get you banned.

    True, didnt read that. Pretty sure they are only talking about personal information though. DPS is not personal information.

    There is no consequence to dying to a boss. This whole argument is irelevant.

    There is a consequence. Its called waste of time.

    Fact is that something needs to be done to allow more players in raids. You really dont need to kill a boss 250 times to be allowed to raid. Especially since GW2 bosses are > insanely easy compared to other mmos.

    Well, apparently you do. Ive seen people in 250LI groups refusing to do cannons on Sabetha because they dont know how to do them. I see Druids camping staff 1 and almost never using CA. People in this game can be utter garbage.

  • @sigur.9453 said:

    @Chrysaliss.8720 said:
    Easiest solution for the raiding inaccessibility would be to make it impossible to link li/kp in the chat. As well as any other potentialy abusable items.

    so no more different classes then i guess. -> potentialy abusable.
    not showing another players weapon setup anymore -> potentialy abusable.
    no more titles -> potentialy abusable.
    no more mastery levels shown -> potentialy abusable.
    no more minis -> potentialy abusable.
    no more special skins -> potentialy abusable.

    Okay. Most of this is just stupid and you know this. Taking things to extreme on purpose doesnt help your point.

    ...
    ...
    ...
    its a stupid solution to a selfmade problem.
    raids are not inaccessible. some people just do not have the time/mindset to participate.
    raiders ARE raiding. non raiders find in inaccessible, because???
    i see a lot of raid guilds recruiting, even whole trainings communities. raids are no solo player experience you hotjoin on the go. you are a 10th % of a group, not less not more.
    nobody is forced to play with anyone, its a game, you said it yourself.

    I am going to assume you have played WoW and know how it works there. In WoW the only way to prove your skill is the achievement, that you have killed the boss ONCE. There is no other possible proof. Also WoW bosses are 1000x times more complex.

    In GW2 there is the LI/KP..... You see the problem already?

    Also I never said that I dont raid. I just see the issue unlike other people here mindlessly defending it.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2019

    @Chrysaliss.8720 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Chrysaliss.8720 said:
    Easiest solution for the raiding inaccessibility would be to make it impossible to link li/kp in the chat. As well as any other potentialy abusable items.

    so no more different classes then i guess. -> potentialy abusable.
    not showing another players weapon setup anymore -> potentialy abusable.
    no more titles -> potentialy abusable.
    no more mastery levels shown -> potentialy abusable.
    no more minis -> potentialy abusable.
    no more special skins -> potentialy abusable.

    Okay. Most of this is just stupid and you know this. Taking things to extreme on purpose doesnt help your point.

    i listed "other potentialy abusable items/things". please do not write what you apearently do not want to say or stay behind.

    ...
    ...
    ...
    its a stupid solution to a selfmade problem.
    raids are not inaccessible. some people just do not have the time/mindset to participate.
    raiders ARE raiding. non raiders find in inaccessible, because???
    i see a lot of raid guilds recruiting, even whole trainings communities. raids are no solo player experience you hotjoin on the go. you are a 10th % of a group, not less not more.
    nobody is forced to play with anyone, its a game, you said it yourself.

    I am going to assume you have played WoW and know how it works there. In WoW the only way to prove your skill is the achievement, that you have killed the boss ONCE. There is no other possible proof. Also WoW bosses are 1000x times more complex.

    just vanilla, cant remember any achievments there, sry.
    you got in the groups if you had friends/ppl you played before on smaller scale content, or you or your guild had a good reputation. (there were no megaservers at the time)
    but i agree that in wow bosses were (or at least as a newbie mmo players perspective) more complex.
    i do not know how that supports your argument though. as in wow, raids are the hardest pve content ingame (+ fractal cm, obvously). it does not really matter HOW hard it is, or who decides what is hard or not (personally i find them too easy still)

    In GW2 there is the LI/KP..... You see the problem already?

    no, please explane. the one big flaw i see is in the ramdomness in how many of those KP you get / kill. LI is fine, and shows a good general expierence in raids.
    a real killcounter would be way better but i supposte gw2 community would not be entertained by that.

    Also I never said that I dont raid. I just see the issue unlike other people here mindlessly defending it.

    again, what issues?
    people with "the right mindset" have no problem raiding and understand that there is a general road to be "succesfull".
    Learn your class -> inform over boss mechanics -> join a guild ->......
    i do not want to generalize here but most of those "raids are innaccesible" people, from personal expierience, just want to skip some, if not all of these little steps.
    and therefore are even missing the most fun & rewarding part of raiding itself. to achieve something with a group and rise above all challenges.
    this is raids. you increase fun by 1000% if you have a (semi)static group.
    Pugs are just there for the loot. and people (rightfully) treat it like that.
    you make my loot harder? kick.block.lfg.
    or on the other side. kicked.blocked.forumpost.

  • Lorfi.7562Lorfi.7562 Member ✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Chrysaliss.8720 said:
    Easiest solution for the raiding inaccessibility would be to make it impossible to link li/kp in the chat. As well as any other potentialy abusable items.

    not showing another players weapon setup anymore -> potentialy abusable.
    no more titles -> potentialy abusable.

    I can confirm this, I called out a lot of players using random weapons and it resulted in them being kicked. chronos running gs on fights you need focus pulls (and giving kitten boons as result), power bs that runs sword/sword and other random kitten in "high" 250li/40kp+ groups.

    Also the amount of times people try to join with "envoy's herald" or the cm titles, but refuse to show them. I hate the linking of kp/li because it shows rng and when u started, I'm 100% pro the system rs3 has where you can use a quicklink (you can't cheat this btw) that says your boss kill, no more getting badluck with kp and i rather have someone that can quickchat 20matthias kills than 500li+ at this point but can only play power dps and only managed to kill matthias 3-5 times cause he got carried through, which is super possible at this point, raiding for a full year of 52weeks and only do the easy 7li bosses give 364li and then add the 2LI from gorse pre and TC for the weeks it gave LI too. Think it adds up to 400+li for 52weeks of no effort raids where you can hard carry people through with healing while ignoring mechanics, and another 52LI if you do deimos range which is incredibly easy too if you dps because all the effort is on tank, BK and HK

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chrysaliss.8720 said:
    Easiest solution for the raiding inaccessibility would be to make it impossible to link li/kp in the chat. As well as any other potentialy abusable items.

    You think people wont get kicked? It would be clear the first pull if someone knows what to do or no, lol.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    If you want to fix the problem, fix the entire non raiding playerbase to not be braindead while playing the game. The game does a poor job preparing the player for end game because the strategies you used at level 1 work at level 80 which is tab, auto attack, afk. If you, at this very moment, gave all players in the game an obstacle to break bar or get banned, we would lose half of the player base. If you asked them what half of their selected traits do or get banned, youd lose 75 percent of the player base.

    Fix the game to make knowing what cc does or block progress. They should have never nerfed eater of souls in the story. Instead they should have ui that pops up after you wipe indicating, "hey this boss has a powerful attack that you can interrupt. When you see the break bar appear, use longbow 4 to disrupt it" and make the player wipe until they exercise their reading comprehension skills and use longbow 4 on the break bar. Do this with other skills crucial to end game like stacking, dps, supporting, field awareness.

    If there wasnt such a huge skill differential, raids would not need such strict requirements because anyone you pick up, youd know that they have basic fundamental skills and you just need to teach them stuff specific to the fight.

    That might be the smartest comment in this thread.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    If you want to fix the problem, fix the entire non raiding playerbase to not be braindead while playing the game. The game does a poor job preparing the player for end game because the strategies you used at level 1 work at level 80 which is tab, auto attack, afk. If you, at this very moment, gave all players in the game an obstacle to break bar or get banned, we would lose half of the player base. If you asked them what half of their selected traits do or get banned, youd lose 75 percent of the player base.

    Fix the game to make knowing what cc does or block progress. They should have never nerfed eater of souls in the story. Instead they should have ui that pops up after you wipe indicating, "hey this boss has a powerful attack that you can interrupt. When you see the break bar appear, use longbow 4 to disrupt it" and make the player wipe until they exercise their reading comprehension skills and use longbow 4 on the break bar. Do this with other skills crucial to end game like stacking, dps, supporting, field awareness.

    If there wasnt such a huge skill differential, raids would not need such strict requirements because anyone you pick up, youd know that they have basic fundamental skills and you just need to teach them stuff specific to the fight.

    That might be the smartest comment in this thread.

    Especially for a game that was made for exploration and laydback questing. Where end-game supposed to be WvW.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    Especially for a game that was made for exploration and laydback questing. Where end-game supposed to be WvW.

    PvE endgame suppose to be WvW? Fun.
    Majority of content can be casual. That doesn't mean there should't be difficulty steps on your way towards Raids. Game has to teach players basic and more advanced mechanics as they make their way up. There is no tutorial for combo fields and break bars in the game. So how somebody that doesn't know those things is fit to raid? Of course he will encounter a wall. And then we get tons of threads to make raids more "accessible".

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Especially for a game that was made for exploration and laydback questing. Where end-game supposed to be WvW.

    PvE endgame suppose to be WvW? Fun.
    Majority of content can be casual. That doesn't mean there should't be difficulty steps on your way towards Raids. Game has to teach players basic and more advanced mechanics as they make their way up. There is no tutorial for combo fields and break bars in the game. So how somebody that doesn't know those things is fit to raid? Of course he will encounter a wall. And then we get tons of threads to make raids more "accessible".

    PvE end-game suppose to be fractals that were 50 tiers. It's raids that were forced into casual game. It would be better to remove 8% of raiders and abandon raids, then remove 60% of playerbase, that are playing this game because it is casual. Maybe that way pvp and wvw won't be abandoned ? Maybe they coulc continue to make collection to legendary weapons 2.0 insteda of making it dry -hump farm if not raids?
    And game won't be like half-opened supermaket that tryes to please all around and in results gets the job only half-done.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @CountMozenrath.7631 said:
    Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the group

    The KP and LI is the demand for proof of experience. Or at least successful boss kills.

    Especially Dhuum and Qadim are bosses where you will not just get to tag along. Way to many mechanics which unless practiced will wipe your entire raid.

    You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

    It has to do with necro.
    I recently joined some groups as necro, because I got kps on him.
    Instantly got kicked before I even had the chance to ping kps.

    Well, who is to blame?
    -necro has low single target DPS
    -and only average support
    The only thing necro is good at is rezzing people, but in my opinion, if you need to rezz someone, you failed your job as a support/healer

    Problem:
    If scourge gets more DPS, scourge stacking will be a thing again, so you don't need healers due to barrier overflow. Well there would be solutions

    No it doesn't. If you do not have the raid experience as to why TC got kicked, read my explanation above.

    TC was not kicked due to being necromancer in this instance. If you want to make this about necro in general, fine. But that has nothing to do with this specific instance and situation.

    Ok your post sounded more like: it's only his fault, but it's clearly not all the time this players fault.

    The community (and anet) in general is pretty much ignoring a lot of things

    (Yes normally I'm also more like: I want to do my kills fast, but then, I'm not allowed to play my favourite class because it benches 4-6k below meta classes)

    Go read what I wrote. This is a very specific situation. If you do not understand how Wing 5 works and what the fights require, I explained that up top.

    If you can find a wing 5 group which is looking for experienced players and is willing to take a fully inexperienced heal scourge to Dhuum, great. I doubt that will ever be the case. Dhuum is among the 2 hardest bosses with the most instant wipe mechanics in the game. It makes no difference with which class you join when you have no experience, you will get removed. Ergo, it was not due to him being on necromancer.

    He wasn't there as dps, he was on a support slot. Those do not get to afk Dhuum like some of the dps. The only thing you are proving here is that one can't take people with no experience along since some are to stubborn to even listen to advice and explanations.

    I think that Nimon is not questioning your focus on the OP's particular case (and I wasn't either), although it's still a very specific focus (like you also mention yourself, btw), where you clearly jump into assumptions, which might be completely right, but still assumptions. You were not there with him/her while he/she was kicked (multiple times). And again, you might be completely right, and it sounds more than viable to me, that he/she was kicked at least once, for the reasons you mention. But he/she mentions multiple kicks! And to be fairly honest, being pre-kicked before you can even show your KP's, LI, etc. happens as well! And I don't even have to explain to you (I hope) for which reasons these particular pre-kicks happen, and which professions are mostly affected by these so called pre-kicks. It's a thing, you know! It happens! It's probably very hard for you to acknowledge it, but believe me, it happens!!!

    Never fails, even when necromancers (such as the OP) get legitimately kicked, it will turn into a discussion about class discrimination on the forums. Such is the tao of the necro.

    Personally for me, if people want to play necro in a pug I'm commanding, I couldn't care less... But if somebody only has ONE CLASS (especially a dps), I'm going to be very skeptical about their abilities...

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids are designed to be exclusive, I don't have the exact dev quote but it could be summed up to "they are not for everyone". We can argue about their place and purpose in a game like GW2, but since they are here, they function the way they are supposed to.

    If one is really determined to change that fact, the best option is to simply ignore them and go play more inclusive content, the game has plenty of that. There is a decent chance the current situation is unsustainable long term and sooner or later that would force, either Anet or the raiders themselves to change towards more inclusion. And if that doesn't happen, it would mean Anet has found a way to deliver niche group content for a minority, that is sustainable. As long as its development focus is proportionate to its player numbers, I'm ok with that.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    PvE end-game suppose to be fractals that were 50 tiers. It's raids that were forced into casual game. It would be better to remove 8% of raiders and abandon raids, then remove 60% of playerbase, that are playing this game because it is casual. Maybe that way pvp and wvw won't be abandoned ? Maybe they coulc continue to make collection to legendary weapons 2.0 insteda of making it dry -hump farm if not raids?
    And game won't be like half-opened supermaket that tryes to please all around and in results gets the job only half-done.

    That's not how game development works my sweet summer child. If you remove dev team from raids we won't magically get t3 set of legendary weapons.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    PvE end-game suppose to be fractals that were 50 tiers. It's raids that were forced into casual game. It would be better to remove 8% of raiders and abandon raids, then remove 60% of playerbase, that are playing this game because it is casual. Maybe that way pvp and wvw won't be abandoned ? Maybe they coulc continue to make collection to legendary weapons 2.0 insteda of making it dry -hump farm if not raids?
    And game won't be like half-opened supermaket that tryes to please all around and in results gets the job only half-done.

    That's not how game development works my sweet summer child. If you remove dev team from raids we won't magically get t3 set of legendary weapons.

    Maybe we would get better metas in LW4 maps instead of rubbish we get for 5 episode? Maybe we get somethign this game supposed to be delivering instead of thing that hardly anyone cares and put players off the game? Bet we would and kids like you wouldn't be here.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    PvE end-game suppose to be fractals that were 50 tiers. It's raids that were forced into casual game. It would be better to remove 8% of raiders and abandon raids, then remove 60% of playerbase, that are playing this game because it is casual. Maybe that way pvp and wvw won't be abandoned ? Maybe they coulc continue to make collection to legendary weapons 2.0 insteda of making it dry -hump farm if not raids?
    And game won't be like half-opened supermaket that tryes to please all around and in results gets the job only half-done.

    That's not how game development works my sweet summer child. If you remove dev team from raids we won't magically get t3 set of legendary weapons.

    Maybe we would get better metas in LW4 maps instead of rubbish we get for 5 episode? Maybe we get somethign this game supposed to be delivering instead of thing that hardly anyone cares and put players off the game? Bet we would and kids like you wouldn't be here.

    And by better I hope you mean raid-like

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Especially for a game that was made for exploration and laydback questing. Where end-game supposed to be WvW.

    PvE endgame suppose to be WvW? Fun.
    Majority of content can be casual. That doesn't mean there should't be difficulty steps on your way towards Raids. Game has to teach players basic and more advanced mechanics as they make their way up. There is no tutorial for combo fields and break bars in the game. So how somebody that doesn't know those things is fit to raid? Of course he will encounter a wall. And then we get tons of threads to make raids more "accessible".

    PvE end-game suppose to be fractals that were 50 tiers. It's raids that were forced into casual game. It would be better to remove 8% of raiders and abandon raids, then remove 60% of playerbase, that are playing this game because it is casual. Maybe that way pvp and wvw won't be abandoned ? Maybe they coulc continue to make collection to legendary weapons 2.0 insteda of making it dry -hump farm if not raids?
    And game won't be like half-opened supermaket that tryes to please all around and in results gets the job only half-done.

    Noone is removing 60 percent of the player base. There is just one team that does stuff for more hardcore players.

  • Lorfi.7562Lorfi.7562 Member ✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    Raids are designed to be exclusive, I don't have the exact dev quote but it could be summed up to "they are not for everyone". We can argue about their place and purpose in a game like GW2, but since they are here, they function the way they are supposed to.

    If one is really determined to change that fact, the best option is to simply ignore them and go play more inclusive content, the game has plenty of that. There is a decent chance the current situation is unsustainable long term and sooner or later that would force, either Anet or the raiders themselves to change towards more inclusion. And if that doesn't happen, it would mean Anet has found a way to deliver niche group content for a minority, that is sustainable. As long as its development focus is proportionate to its player numbers, I'm ok with that.

    iirc the raid team is merged with the fractal team and consist of like 6 or 7members, while the living world team existed of three whole teams each making their own episode and have way more time for one episode, before the employee layoffs happened and more people raid and do t4's+cm's than people who don't raid or barely raid think (people forget that the amount of raiders in a static or raid guild is probably in the 80%) and these are all active players, a great number of them got multiple accounts to raid on too (myself included). If raids weren't populated enough, they'd have stopped after w4 and definitly not announce w7 shortly after last episode release and reinstated the promise they want to vary between a fractal and a new raid wing every other living world release.

    Also the biggest twitch viewercount we had on gw2 that wasn't on their official account was all three of teapot his hosted raiding tournaments and if you look the official discord of SnowCrows you can see that arenanet is actually supporting the monthly event they host, they give the top 3 teams a gem price, 2k/player for 1st, 800/player for second and 400/player for third place which is still 32k gems they donate to a gamemode people claim "is a waste of dev time".

    Also raids are very inclusive, there are more than enough raid training guilds. It's not anets or raiders their fault some people think they're too good/entitled for those and find they should join exp groups and then complain raiding is too hard to get into.

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    @Lorfi.7562 said:
    iirc the raid team is merged with the fractal team and consist of like 6 or 7members, while the living world team existed of three whole teams each making their own episode and have way more time for one episode, before the employee layoffs happened and more people raid and do t4's+cm's than people who don't raid or barely raid

    Only one of these two bolded parts can be true. Because if both are true, then Anet is really bad at allocating dev resources on the content that is more popular. If raids are that popular then they shoud have 3 , fully staffed teams working on new wings instead of LS and a small team working on new LW for that small minority of casuals once every blue moon. Given their track record in the industry, I d wager they are pretty capable of allocating resources properly.

    Also the biggest twitch viewercount we had on gw2 that wasn't on their official account was all three of teapot his hosted raiding tournaments and if you look the official discord of SnowCrows you can see that arenanet is actually supporting the monthly event they host, they give the top 3 teams a gem price, 2k/player for 1st, 800/player for second and 400/player for third place which is still 32k gems they donate to a gamemode people claim "is a waste of dev time".

    I'm confused about this point too. Twitch is all about competitive PvP and to some extent, hardcore PvE content. No one would ever stay and watch a stream about SW farming or how to beat X story boss. That still doesn't prove anything about player activity in different modes in-game.

    Also raids are very inclusive, there are more than enough raid training guilds. It's not anets or raiders their fault some people think they're too good/entitled for those and find they should join exp groups and then complain raiding is too hard to get into.

    When the dev making said content is saying that it's not meant for everyone, it's a pretty good indication that it's....not meant for everyone. And you won't find me, personally, complaining about anything related to raids at their current state. I'm even opposed to all those watered-down versions proposed here, they should remain as they are. I think they have the development focus, the player numbers and the release schedule they deserve, no need to change a thing as far as I am concerned.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Lorfi.7562 said:
    iirc the raid team is merged with the fractal team and consist of like 6 or 7members, while the living world team existed of three whole teams each making their own episode and have way more time for one episode, before the employee layoffs happened and more people raid and do t4's+cm's than people who don't raid or barely raid

    Only one of these two bolded parts can be true. Because if both are true, then Anet is really bad at allocating dev resources on the content that is more popular. If raids are that popular then they shoud have 3 , fully staffed teams working on new wings instead of LS and a small team working on new LW for that small minority of casuals once every blue moon. Given their track record in the industry, I d wager they are pretty capable of allocating resources properly.

    Also the biggest twitch viewercount we had on gw2 that wasn't on their official account was all three of teapot his hosted raiding tournaments and if you look the official discord of SnowCrows you can see that arenanet is actually supporting the monthly event they host, they give the top 3 teams a gem price, 2k/player for 1st, 800/player for second and 400/player for third place which is still 32k gems they donate to a gamemode people claim "is a waste of dev time".

    I'm confused about this point too. Twitch is all about competitive PvP and to some extent, hardcore PvE content. No one would ever stay and watch a stream about SW farming or how to beat X story boss. That still doesn't prove anything about player activity in different modes in-game.

    Also raids are very inclusive, there are more than enough raid training guilds. It's not anets or raiders their fault some people think they're too good/entitled for those and find they should join exp groups and then complain raiding is too hard to get into.

    When the dev making said content is saying that it's not meant for everyone, it's a pretty good indication that it's....not meant for everyone. And you won't find me, personally, complaining about anything related to raids at their current state. I'm even opposed to all those watered-down versions proposed here, they should remain as they are. I think they have the development focus, the player numbers and the release schedule they deserve, no need to change a thing as far as I am concerned.

    GW2efficiency is biased towards players who either care about metrics enough to put up their API there or at least are committed enough to the game to be curious about their stats. And even there, 50% of players with over 4000h of playtime have an average of 11 LI only, and 50% of those with less than 2k hours playtime have no LI at all. It's not much, but the only actual statistics we have point to Raids indeed being a very minor game mode, with only a perceived relevance due to the people actually invested in it being very invested, to the point of playing it competitively regardless of it being easy to play. If anything raids are a very useful and reliable testing grounds for mechanics and gameplay elements that can later get through to their actual main content at the Living World, and definitely should remain as [minor] as they currently are.

  • Cameron.6450Cameron.6450 Member ✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Lorfi.7562 said:
    iirc the raid team is merged with the fractal team and consist of like 6 or 7members, while the living world team existed of three whole teams each making their own episode and have way more time for one episode, before the employee layoffs happened and more people raid and do t4's+cm's than people who don't raid or barely raid

    Only one of these two bolded parts can be true. Because if both are true, then Anet is really bad at allocating dev resources on the content that is more popular. If raids are that popular then they shoud have 3 , fully staffed teams working on new wings instead of LS and a small team working on new LW for that small minority of casuals once every blue moon. Given their track record in the industry, I d wager they are pretty capable of allocating resources properly.

    If you're going to bold parts of a quote to make you point, try not to misquote. Lorfi never said raids or cms had more people doing them than not, he said that "more people raid and do t4's+cm's than people who don't raid or barely raid THINK".

  • Magnus Godrik.5841Magnus Godrik.5841 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah i can see where your coming from. So lets be honest, in every mmo most raiders are a holes, especially the below average ones who think they are good. Youll find that the HoT raiders are more willing to work with you. I suggest you do what most of the bad raiders do and create your own squad and ask for obscene amounts of kp. Noone will question you for fear of getting kicked. Or if your pockets are deep just buy them.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:
    Yeah i can see where your coming from. So lets be honest, in every mmo most raiders are a holes, especially the below average ones who think they are good. Youll find that the HoT raiders are more willing to work with you. I suggest you do what most of the bad raiders do and create your own squad and ask for obscene amounts of kp. Noone will question you for fear of getting kicked. Or if your pockets are deep just buy them.

    Noone will question sure they will leave and find a better team

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    @Magnus Godrik.5841 said:
    Yeah i can see where your coming from. So lets be honest, in every mmo most raiders are a holes, especially the below average ones who think they are good. Youll find that the HoT raiders are more willing to work with you. I suggest you do what most of the bad raiders do and create your own squad and ask for obscene amounts of kp. Noone will question you for fear of getting kicked. Or if your pockets are deep just buy them.

    Trying to cheat the system won't have the outcome you hoped for..
    if you set high expectations, you can be sure they will expect the same.
    They will have mastered their class.
    They will have arcdps.
    They will not kick you, as you obviously can't kick at commander...but they are not gonna stay with you either if you mess everything up.

    Every month we have atleast a fake-linker when we are looking for a replacement dps, it becomes clear fast who has experience and who pretends to have.
    The outcome however never changes, full raid clear on our part..lonely lfg search on the other.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why would anyone stay with a clueless commander for more than one pull or two even if he actually happens to have 2000 LI banked away?
    The fear of getting kicked... sounds very frightening -lol.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    if you remain a necro player you ll hate yourself before you can get "Hateful Sworl"
    thank god we have player that allow necromancer in end game content