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Are there more guardian healers or more power supports renevants needed for fractals?

Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

Thinking of going support power renevant but I'm still thinking...

Comments

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    Currently Guardian Power Support actually do more damage than Renegade Power Support. So it's more common to see Healer Renegade+Power Firebrand than Heal Firebrand+Power Renegade.

    But truth be told, most people still want Chrono+Druid regardless of FB+Ren comps doing their jobs very well.

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  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeh it will take some time for a meta to change
    Though I had Firebrand/Renegade combo with my power halo and I started slaughtering everything! :P

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    Because, despite nerfs chrono is still doing great, chrono can access to diviner too, don't forget. The question was about the druid : did we need a healer or not, as PS war+ chrono ensure 25mights fury. Chrono+ps+3DPS is still a thing.

    There are not so many FB+Ren for now.
    It's not a DPS issue, we have/had years of 3k dps druid + 4k dps Chrono; so harrier FB or Harrier Ren to lose/win 5k ... it's more about people's skill, knowledge and confidence, and about fractals and instabilities needs.
    Zerk FB : big issue you NEED perma alacrity, you need people to be ALWAYS near/front of you.
    Diviner FB; less DPS for sure but so more ease perma quickness, perma stab, more resistance, protection, retaliation etc.
    Vipere FB (+ FB runes) : ~same DPS as zerk (depends of fractalsif there are phases/invu, a lot of mobs ... , like Siren's reef I was 35k all along the last boss due to F1 spam, not bad for a support role), but more quickness, but less than diviner FB ; easier access to virtues, to wall of reflection (because you use virtue spec ...), but you have to make a choice : Bane signet sharing/CC or personnal DPS.
    Harrier FB : You can juggle easily between virtue or radiance (dps will still be low), perma stab quickness etc. More blocks, more aegis, good "regen", good heals

    Harrier Ren : betters heals than FB, anti proj too.
    Diviner Ren : better Soulcleave's summit uptime because of Invoction spec, you can swap to mallyx for boonstrip. You have to make a choice between LL or RR, it will depends of your teammates. Less personal dps than FB.

    My experience; harrier FB is better for PUG (CM or not). Why ? Because it slots itself easier in more compos than Ren ; Way more ease with quickness ; More utilities ; Perma stab + aegis spam = you cancel HALF to ALL the mechanices which means NO NEED TO DODGE, TO KITE, NO NEED TO TURN BACK (like Chaos last boss, like Dulfy, like Flux Anomalies, etc etc...) ; wall/bubble ; bane signet(radiance) or more regen/endurance regen, more wall more virtues (virtue spec) ...
    Otherwise Zerk FB is the "meta" but diviner is easier and more useful.
    Harrier or Diviner Ren... The real question is Invocation or Salvation.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    that. if u want high dps than rev should heal, but fb is just much supperior in both terms of heal and dps(plz nerf fb in pvp and pve)

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Harrier Ren : betters heals than FB, anti proj too.

    This is where I would disagree to a degree. Renegade might have better burst healing, but Firebrand provides more constant healing ticks which usually work better to keep a party alive in practice as it avoids wasteful overhealing, followed by downtime, while also being able to burst heal sufficiently when needed. Add Bow of Truth to the mix, which I usually run, and I'm pretty sure it beats Renegade in not wasted heals, especially if people don't stack super tight, on top of superior boon support making heals less necessary.
    If you run Virtues on top of that, I don't think anything can compete with FB in terms of 5 man support.

    Shield 5 and Courage Tome is also sufficient projectile defense, without sacrificing boon uptime or heals due to lack of Energy. The Virtues variant can technically even run Shield of the Avenger in the Bane Signet slot, if you want near permanent projectile immunity, if it were needed.

    For Quickbrand, I run a Diviner/Zerker mix to about 30% BD, which leads to comfortable boon uptime and good DPS.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that Support FB, with the right build, can keep 5 man 25 Might better than Renegade + BS running PS, or a Druid for that matter, which speeds things up as well, especially for splits, making encounters like Skorvald and Siax a lot quicker.

    But yea, people underestimate how much DPS the Stab and Aegis spam of a support FB adds, cancelling out the frequent dazes, stuns and knockbacks in Fractals, compared to the theoretical DPS advantage of Quickbrand on a Golem, as well as superior Scholar uptime with constant heal ticks.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • So question regarding FB. I have one for some time, played a little with it for now so I don't know rotation very well yet. Most if not all build for support FB (healing+boon) that I saw are with harrier stats, I undestadne it's all about boon durration and healing. But for my taste that kind of FB has to small HP (it's around 12K). So now, can full minstrel or minstrel/harrier be playable? I have in mind only dungeons and fractal, most of the time with PUG (and we all know how they play sometimes).
    I know that there won't be any damage from my side but I want to play safe until I will learn rottation and things like that. According to build editor I will have ~17k hp and with 150ar and fractal potions ~95% boon durration. For safe play it should be ok I think. What do you thing about something like that?

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arryn.9346 said:
    So question regarding FB. I have one for some time, played a little with it for now so I don't know rotation very well yet. Most if not all build for support FB (healing+boon) that I saw are with harrier stats, I undestadne it's all about boon durration and healing. But for my taste that kind of FB has to small HP (it's around 12K). So now, can full minstrel or minstrel/harrier be playable? I have in mind only dungeons and fractal, most of the time with PUG (and we all know how they play sometimes).
    I know that there won't be any damage from my side but I want to play safe until I will learn rottation and things like that. According to build editor I will have ~17k hp and with 150ar and fractal potions ~95% boon durration. For safe play it should be ok I think. What do you thing about something like that?

    Minstrel should be acceptable where there are no Toughness Aggro mechanics (Last time I did FotM they didn't had any). That will reduce your dps, but then again, it's not your job to be dealing damage. You job is to keep the rest of your party alive so they can dps.

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  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2019

    @Arryn.9346 said:
    So question regarding FB. I have one for some time, played a little with it for now so I don't know rotation very well yet. Most if not all build for support FB (healing+boon) that I saw are with harrier stats, I undestadne it's all about boon durration and healing. But for my taste that kind of FB has to small HP (it's around 12K). So now, can full minstrel or minstrel/harrier be playable? I have in mind only dungeons and fractal, most of the time with PUG (and we all know how they play sometimes).
    I know that there won't be any damage from my side but I want to play safe until I will learn rottation and things like that. According to build editor I will have ~17k hp and with 150ar and fractal potions ~95% boon durration. For safe play it should be ok I think. What do you thing about something like that?

    Due to the free boon duration from potions in Fractals you can run a few Magi Pieces with the rest Harrier for some extra healing power, which also happens to provide Vitality, but in general the low HP shouldn't be an issue. If you can't keep yourself alive as Heal FB, you are doing something wrong, and the way to fix that isn't switching stats for personal survival. Toughness just isn't really valuable in PvE outside of toughness tanking and some very niche roles.

    Will Minstrel work? Yes, if you feel more comfortable with that, Minstrel should work just fine.
    But I would recommend to just go for the proper thing, and practice healing at the DPS Golem with medium damaging area on. That should give you a feel for surviving rough phases.

    In any case, don't worry about your damage as support FB, you won't do much at all regardless, but Harrier + Magi works great.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2019

    @Arryn.9346 said:
    So question regarding FB. I have one for some time, played a little with it for now so I don't know rotation very well yet. Most if not all build for support FB (healing+boon) that I saw are with harrier stats, I undestadne it's all about boon durration and healing. But for my taste that kind of FB has to small HP (it's around 12K). So now, can full minstrel or minstrel/harrier be playable? I have in mind only dungeons and fractal, most of the time with PUG (and we all know how they play sometimes).
    I know that there won't be any damage from my side but I want to play safe until I will learn rottation and things like that. According to build editor I will have ~17k hp and with 150ar and fractal potions ~95% boon durration. For safe play it should be ok I think. What do you thing about something like that?

    11.9k :lol: with full harrier. Thats 200hp above a weaver! Comes down to preference(?). Is it sufficient? Yes, staff have excellent heals, mace procs, regens, aegis etc with proper use of anti projectiles for damage prevention. F2 will top everyone when necessary. Minstrel will work the same, give and take in certain aspects. My reason for using harrier is because (1) it can be used outside of FotM, raids and such. (2) Minstrel is costly :lol:.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    So this Renegade build can both be used in raids and is welcome in fractals?
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/revenant/renegade/alacrity/

    Edit:

    Thank you all for explaining me how Renegade/Firebrand are at the moment
    Gonna be gearing Renegade first and then a Firebrand second
    Just have to decide on the builds I'm gonna be gearing both
    Leaning towards Diviner Renegade
    Just need to think what I'm gonna gear my firebrand as next

  • @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    It's not only about healing ; there are also mace block, shield, you can play Weighty Terms meaning more aegis and possibly perma stab, you can play virtues if needed instead of Radiance, you lose group buff but can spam virtues and consecrations.
    It's not about carrying "bad" groups, it's about making gimmicks easier for all, or even cancel them; in some way the role of a support ?
    Diviner gear or condi+fb runes too offers more ease to the group
    Of course zerk FB works, I do not disagree; but without margin of error, and I only encounter "bad" pug or FB or Ren if so; not all people have static. It's not being "bad" to have expectations or some trust on a class with so many utilities.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    I never contested that in a vacuum, Quickbrand is more DPS and burst than Alacrigade, but from personal experience in about 3 months of daily CM's+T4+Rec runs (250KP+), that rarely translates into faster times.

    Now, it's not easy to get consistent numbers, due to changing daily Fractals and Instabilities, especially when mostly pugging, aka changing players as well, but over the course of 3 months playing both of these comps (and testing others), the runs in which I played support FB have been consistently faster on average, ranging from 39 minutes to 75m for CM's+T4+Rec (averaging at around an hour), depending on the Fractals and Instabilities.
    Fastest time for Heal Renegade + Quickbrand was about 45 minutes, but more often than not, due to tough Instabilities leading to 1-3 wipes here and there, unlike sup FB, it averages at around 70 minutes.

    Now that in itself is not a big deal, but at the same time, runs with a sup FB feel like a breeze, mainly due to the more consistent healing and higher Aegis and Stab spam, while I actually have to concentrate somewhat in sup Renegade runs, which didn't feel that much different to no heal runs in terms of effort.

    If a composition, over the course of around 100 runs, gives me consistently better times while also feeling much more relaxed (and deleting the frustration of constant stuns/dazes in some Fractals), which is important for me for Daily content, I personally just prefer that comp, even if it looks slightly less optimal on paper.

    My personal preference in terms of comp for pugging is:
    Sup FB + Alacrigade, (2DPS, BS) > Sup Renegade + Quickbrand, (2DPS, BS) > Sup FB + Chrono, (2DPS, BS) > Sub FB (3 DPS, BS) > Chrono + Druid, (2DPS, BS).

    Running both FB and Renegade as hybrids with no heal I've only done 3 times so far, which isn't really enough for me to place it as I'm not sure how it performs consistently with some of the new Instability combinations. The times I tried it it was exceptionally fast (avg. 45m), but required more effort than I personally would like to put into Fractals on a daily basis.

    But again, keep in mind this is personal experience, mostly in pugging, be it at a high level.
    It's entirely possible that sup Ren + Quickbrand performs consistently better in a static with better players.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • my fractal team doesnt run healer, both firebrand and renegade are using power gear. but if we need a healer, harrier/magi renegade is preferable because it has better (more immediate and strong) heals. and loses way less dps - power firebrand is doing about same dps as warrior so there's that.

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  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    my fractal team doesnt run healer, both firebrand and renegade are using power gear. but if we need a healer, harrier/magi renegade is preferable because it has better (more immediate and strong) heals. and loses way less dps - power firebrand is doing about same dps as warrior so there's that.

    Yea, if you have a static that is comfortable with a no heal comp, support FB is definitely overkill. No reason not to take the free extra dps then, aside from it being less relaxed/a bit more annoying to play with getting dazed a lot in some fractals.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    I never contested that in a vacuum, Quickbrand is more DPS and burst than Alacrigade, but from personal experience in about 3 months of daily CM's+T4+Rec runs (250KP+), that rarely translates into faster times.

    Now, it's not easy to get consistent numbers, due to changing daily Fractals and Instabilities, especially when mostly pugging, aka changing players as well, but over the course of 3 months playing both of these comps (and testing others), the runs in which I played support FB have been consistently faster on average, ranging from 39 minutes to 75m for CM's+T4+Rec (averaging at around an hour), depending on the Fractals and Instabilities.
    Fastest time for Heal Renegade + Quickbrand was about 45 minutes, but more often than not, due to tough Instabilities leading to 1-3 wipes here and there, unlike sup FB, it averages at around 70 minutes.

    Now that in itself is not a big deal, but at the same time, runs with a sup FB feel like a breeze, mainly due to the more consistent healing and higher Aegis and Stab spam, while I actually have to concentrate somewhat in sup Renegade runs, which didn't feel that much different to no heal runs in terms of effort.

    If a composition, over the course of around 100 runs, gives me consistently better times while also feeling much more relaxed (and deleting the frustration of constant stuns/dazes in some Fractals), which is important for me for Daily content, I personally just prefer that comp, even if it looks slightly less optimal on paper.

    My personal preference in terms of comp for pugging is:
    Sup FB + Alacrigade, (2DPS, BS) > Sup Renegade + Quickbrand, (2DPS, BS) > Sup FB + Chrono, (2DPS, BS) > Sub FB (3 DPS, BS) > Chrono + Druid, (2DPS, BS).

    Running both FB and Renegade as hybrids with no heal I've only done 3 times so far, which isn't really enough for me to place it as I'm not sure how it performs consistently with some of the new Instability combinations. The times I tried it it was exceptionally fast (avg. 45m), but required more effort than I personally would like to put into Fractals on a daily basis.

    But again, keep in mind this is personal experience, mostly in pugging, be it at a high level.
    It's entirely possible that sup Ren + Quickbrand performs consistently better in a static with better

    When running dps fb and heal renegade, did you play heal renegade or or dps firebrand. I think players experiance might be deciding factor there.

    As i have said. Dps firebrand can do exact same things as heal FB exept healing. When running heal firebrand you are having easier job because rotation doesnt matter since your dps is bad anyway and you overheal by such an enormous numbers that you dont need to focus on healing.

    As a dps fb you need to deal with mechanics and deal dps which is much harder.

    Also healer renegade is harder then diviner renegade since you need to manage energy based on mechanics.

    So i gues healer fb + diviner ren is better for less experianced players but in the hands of good party, heal ren + dps fb should be better

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    I never contested that in a vacuum, Quickbrand is more DPS and burst than Alacrigade, but from personal experience in about 3 months of daily CM's+T4+Rec runs (250KP+), that rarely translates into faster times.

    Now, it's not easy to get consistent numbers, due to changing daily Fractals and Instabilities, especially when mostly pugging, aka changing players as well, but over the course of 3 months playing both of these comps (and testing others), the runs in which I played support FB have been consistently faster on average, ranging from 39 minutes to 75m for CM's+T4+Rec (averaging at around an hour), depending on the Fractals and Instabilities.
    Fastest time for Heal Renegade + Quickbrand was about 45 minutes, but more often than not, due to tough Instabilities leading to 1-3 wipes here and there, unlike sup FB, it averages at around 70 minutes.

    Now that in itself is not a big deal, but at the same time, runs with a sup FB feel like a breeze, mainly due to the more consistent healing and higher Aegis and Stab spam, while I actually have to concentrate somewhat in sup Renegade runs, which didn't feel that much different to no heal runs in terms of effort.

    If a composition, over the course of around 100 runs, gives me consistently better times while also feeling much more relaxed (and deleting the frustration of constant stuns/dazes in some Fractals), which is important for me for Daily content, I personally just prefer that comp, even if it looks slightly less optimal on paper.

    My personal preference in terms of comp for pugging is:
    Sup FB + Alacrigade, (2DPS, BS) > Sup Renegade + Quickbrand, (2DPS, BS) > Sup FB + Chrono, (2DPS, BS) > Sub FB (3 DPS, BS) > Chrono + Druid, (2DPS, BS).

    Running both FB and Renegade as hybrids with no heal I've only done 3 times so far, which isn't really enough for me to place it as I'm not sure how it performs consistently with some of the new Instability combinations. The times I tried it it was exceptionally fast (avg. 45m), but required more effort than I personally would like to put into Fractals on a daily basis.

    But again, keep in mind this is personal experience, mostly in pugging, be it at a high level.
    It's entirely possible that sup Ren + Quickbrand performs consistently better in a static with better

    When running dps fb and heal renegade, did you play heal renegade or or dps firebrand. I think players experiance might be deciding factor there.

    As i have said. Dps firebrand can do exact same things as heal FB exept healing. When running heal firebrand you are having easier job because rotation doesnt matter since your dps is bad anyway and you overheal by such an enormous numbers that you dont need to focus on healing.

    As a dps fb you need to deal with mechanics and deal dps which is much harder.

    Also healer renegade is harder then diviner renegade since you need to manage energy based on mechanics.

    So i gues healer fb + diviner ren is better for less experianced players but in the hands of good party, heal ren + dps fb should be better

    Playing Quickbrand.

    That's mostly true, but at least I am running Feel My Wrath as Quickbrand rather than Stab Mantra on Support, which makes a big difference in some cases. Similarly I don't want to spend as much time on the tomes on Quickbrand as I do on Support FB so I don't lose as much DPS, so that's some utility loss as well.
    You also don't get the extra Aegis from the shield, and due to much less boon duration, you can't be as deliberate with your Mantra's, usually using them mainly for Quickness when available rather having more room to wait for certain mechanics for a group Aegis before the Quickness runs out, among other things.
    Also when it comes to healing, while with a heal Renegade it's more of a ping pong between dangerously low HP and instant full HP (with a wipe on a missed Heal), FB generally provides consistent full HP in my experience.

    All that said, I do agree with your assessment that playing support in of itself is more relaxed and easier than playing DPS or hybrid, which could skew my perception there, and that I would need to run Heal Ren to properly compare the two experiences. Thank you for pointing that out.
    I also agree with the conclusion that heal ren is technically better in good groups, which is why I said that's what I would go for in a good static, or rather no heal.
    But since even my 250+KP pugs tend to wipe 1-3 times on average with the Heal Renegade + Quickbrand setup, when they wouldn't have the other way around, it's less efficient to run that setup in that case, as that is a bigger time loss than the slightly lower DPS of Heal FB + Alacrigade would have been.

    That's kind of where I'm coming from.
    I learned from raids that it's better to run a safe comp that takes a few seconds longer on each boss and provides a more relaxed experience, than wiping a couple of times with a comp that's faster on paper, but ends up taking a lot longer because of that. At least in my eyes.
    That's why I recommend Heal FB for pugs.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    I never contested that in a vacuum, Quickbrand is more DPS and burst than Alacrigade, but from personal experience in about 3 months of daily CM's+T4+Rec runs (250KP+), that rarely translates into faster times.

    Now, it's not easy to get consistent numbers, due to changing daily Fractals and Instabilities, especially when mostly pugging, aka changing players as well, but over the course of 3 months playing both of these comps (and testing others), the runs in which I played support FB have been consistently faster on average, ranging from 39 minutes to 75m for CM's+T4+Rec (averaging at around an hour), depending on the Fractals and Instabilities.
    Fastest time for Heal Renegade + Quickbrand was about 45 minutes, but more often than not, due to tough Instabilities leading to 1-3 wipes here and there, unlike sup FB, it averages at around 70 minutes.

    Now that in itself is not a big deal, but at the same time, runs with a sup FB feel like a breeze, mainly due to the more consistent healing and higher Aegis and Stab spam, while I actually have to concentrate somewhat in sup Renegade runs, which didn't feel that much different to no heal runs in terms of effort.

    If a composition, over the course of around 100 runs, gives me consistently better times while also feeling much more relaxed (and deleting the frustration of constant stuns/dazes in some Fractals), which is important for me for Daily content, I personally just prefer that comp, even if it looks slightly less optimal on paper.

    My personal preference in terms of comp for pugging is:
    Sup FB + Alacrigade, (2DPS, BS) > Sup Renegade + Quickbrand, (2DPS, BS) > Sup FB + Chrono, (2DPS, BS) > Sub FB (3 DPS, BS) > Chrono + Druid, (2DPS, BS).

    Running both FB and Renegade as hybrids with no heal I've only done 3 times so far, which isn't really enough for me to place it as I'm not sure how it performs consistently with some of the new Instability combinations. The times I tried it it was exceptionally fast (avg. 45m), but required more effort than I personally would like to put into Fractals on a daily basis.

    But again, keep in mind this is personal experience, mostly in pugging, be it at a high level.
    It's entirely possible that sup Ren + Quickbrand performs consistently better in a static with better

    When running dps fb and heal renegade, did you play heal renegade or or dps firebrand. I think players experiance might be deciding factor there.

    As i have said. Dps firebrand can do exact same things as heal FB exept healing. When running heal firebrand you are having easier job because rotation doesnt matter since your dps is bad anyway and you overheal by such an enormous numbers that you dont need to focus on healing.

    As a dps fb you need to deal with mechanics and deal dps which is much harder.

    Also healer renegade is harder then diviner renegade since you need to manage energy based on mechanics.

    So i gues healer fb + diviner ren is better for less experianced players but in the hands of good party, heal ren + dps fb should be better

    Playing Quickbrand.

    That's mostly true, but at least I am running Feel My Wrath as Quickbrand rather than Stab Mantra on Support, which makes a big difference in some cases. Similarly I don't want to spend as much time on the tomes on Quickbrand as I do on Support FB so I don't lose as much DPS, so that's some utility loss as well.
    You also don't get the extra Aegis from the shield, and due to much less boon duration, you can't be as deliberate with your Mantra's, usually using them mainly for Quickness when available rather having more room to wait for certain mechanics for a group Aegis before the Quickness runs out, among other things.
    Also when it comes to healing, while with a heal Renegade it's more of a ping pong between dangerously low HP and instant full HP (with a wipe on a missed Heal), FB generally provides consistent full HP in my experience.

    All that said, I do agree with your assessment that playing support in of itself is more relaxed and easier than playing DPS or hybrid, which could skew my perception there, and that I would need to run Heal Ren to properly compare the two experiences. Thank you for pointing that out.
    I also agree with the conclusion that heal ren is technically better in good groups, which is why I said that's what I would go for in a good static, or rather no heal.
    But since even my 250+KP pugs tend to wipe 1-3 times on average with the Heal Renegade + Quickbrand setup, when they wouldn't have the other way around, it's less efficient to run that setup in that case, as that is a bigger time loss than the slightly lower DPS of Heal FB + Alacrigade would have been.

    That's kind of where I'm coming from.
    I learned from raids that it's better to run a safe comp that takes a few seconds longer on each boss and provides a more relaxed experience, than wiping a couple of times with a comp that's faster on paper, but ends up taking a lot longer because of that. At least in my eyes.
    That's why I recommend Heal FB for pugs.

    I am chrono main (in raids and t4s) and I play heal renegade in CMs. In kalla my team cannot die and if you time it well you have both ventari heals and kallas heal in ventari. That beeing said this works only if your party is not moving and is atacking. So heal renegade (and i think this comp as a whole) is not that good in fights where party needs to move alot.

    Also most players are either good support players or good dps players. Power FB needs a good support player that can provide great numbers which is very rare (like chrono doing 10k+ in real raids)
    On the other hand diviner renegade is basicaly a dps class that require you to press 2 spells off cd.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    I never contested that in a vacuum, Quickbrand is more DPS and burst than Alacrigade, but from personal experience in about 3 months of daily CM's+T4+Rec runs (250KP+), that rarely translates into faster times.

    Now, it's not easy to get consistent numbers, due to changing daily Fractals and Instabilities, especially when mostly pugging, aka changing players as well, but over the course of 3 months playing both of these comps (and testing others), the runs in which I played support FB have been consistently faster on average, ranging from 39 minutes to 75m for CM's+T4+Rec (averaging at around an hour), depending on the Fractals and Instabilities.
    Fastest time for Heal Renegade + Quickbrand was about 45 minutes, but more often than not, due to tough Instabilities leading to 1-3 wipes here and there, unlike sup FB, it averages at around 70 minutes.

    Now that in itself is not a big deal, but at the same time, runs with a sup FB feel like a breeze, mainly due to the more consistent healing and higher Aegis and Stab spam, while I actually have to concentrate somewhat in sup Renegade runs, which didn't feel that much different to no heal runs in terms of effort.

    If a composition, over the course of around 100 runs, gives me consistently better times while also feeling much more relaxed (and deleting the frustration of constant stuns/dazes in some Fractals), which is important for me for Daily content, I personally just prefer that comp, even if it looks slightly less optimal on paper.

    My personal preference in terms of comp for pugging is:
    Sup FB + Alacrigade, (2DPS, BS) > Sup Renegade + Quickbrand, (2DPS, BS) > Sup FB + Chrono, (2DPS, BS) > Sub FB (3 DPS, BS) > Chrono + Druid, (2DPS, BS).

    Running both FB and Renegade as hybrids with no heal I've only done 3 times so far, which isn't really enough for me to place it as I'm not sure how it performs consistently with some of the new Instability combinations. The times I tried it it was exceptionally fast (avg. 45m), but required more effort than I personally would like to put into Fractals on a daily basis.

    But again, keep in mind this is personal experience, mostly in pugging, be it at a high level.
    It's entirely possible that sup Ren + Quickbrand performs consistently better in a static with better

    When running dps fb and heal renegade, did you play heal renegade or or dps firebrand. I think players experiance might be deciding factor there.

    As i have said. Dps firebrand can do exact same things as heal FB exept healing. When running heal firebrand you are having easier job because rotation doesnt matter since your dps is bad anyway and you overheal by such an enormous numbers that you dont need to focus on healing.

    As a dps fb you need to deal with mechanics and deal dps which is much harder.

    Also healer renegade is harder then diviner renegade since you need to manage energy based on mechanics.

    So i gues healer fb + diviner ren is better for less experianced players but in the hands of good party, heal ren + dps fb should be better

    Playing Quickbrand.

    That's mostly true, but at least I am running Feel My Wrath as Quickbrand rather than Stab Mantra on Support, which makes a big difference in some cases. Similarly I don't want to spend as much time on the tomes on Quickbrand as I do on Support FB so I don't lose as much DPS, so that's some utility loss as well.
    You also don't get the extra Aegis from the shield, and due to much less boon duration, you can't be as deliberate with your Mantra's, usually using them mainly for Quickness when available rather having more room to wait for certain mechanics for a group Aegis before the Quickness runs out, among other things.
    Also when it comes to healing, while with a heal Renegade it's more of a ping pong between dangerously low HP and instant full HP (with a wipe on a missed Heal), FB generally provides consistent full HP in my experience.

    All that said, I do agree with your assessment that playing support in of itself is more relaxed and easier than playing DPS or hybrid, which could skew my perception there, and that I would need to run Heal Ren to properly compare the two experiences. Thank you for pointing that out.
    I also agree with the conclusion that heal ren is technically better in good groups, which is why I said that's what I would go for in a good static, or rather no heal.
    But since even my 250+KP pugs tend to wipe 1-3 times on average with the Heal Renegade + Quickbrand setup, when they wouldn't have the other way around, it's less efficient to run that setup in that case, as that is a bigger time loss than the slightly lower DPS of Heal FB + Alacrigade would have been.

    That's kind of where I'm coming from.
    I learned from raids that it's better to run a safe comp that takes a few seconds longer on each boss and provides a more relaxed experience, than wiping a couple of times with a comp that's faster on paper, but ends up taking a lot longer because of that. At least in my eyes.
    That's why I recommend Heal FB for pugs.

    I am chrono main (in raids and t4s) and I play heal renegade in CMs. In kalla my team cannot die and if you time it well you have both ventari heals and kallas heal in ventari. That beeing said this works only if your party is not moving and is atacking. So heal renegade (and i think this comp as a whole) is not that good in fights where party needs to move alot.

    Also most players are either good support players or good dps players. Power FB needs a good support player that can provide great numbers which is very rare (like chrono doing 10k+ in real raids)
    On the other hand diviner renegade is basicaly a dps class that require you to press 2 spells off cd.

    I might have also encountered mostly rather fresh sup Renegade players, and have to say most other sup FB's when I was playing DPS have also performed on that level. It's just hard to tell with all the variables.
    Maining both DPS and Support, as well as Hyrbid myself, maybe I'm also just expecting too much/the situation would look different to me if I was playing sup Renegade.

    Regardless of all that, I'm glad that the difference between those two comps, as well as others, like FB + Chrono or surprisingly sup FB + 3 DPS is so minor, that they are all perfectly viable to run, unless a 1-10 minute difference for CM's+T4+Rec is a dealbreaker.

    I always found it unfortunate that the GW2 community zero's in on one single comp and then becomes extremely adamant about it, to a point where they are willing to sit in lfg for vastly longer than what a available alternative comp would take extra.

    I enjoy the variety, keeps things interesting and the fact that we can now argue about with combination of supports is faster by less than a minute per fractal and in which circumstance makes me hopeful for further balance.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    if we talk about supports, we otfen use minisrel rene + deviner chrono + if very hot (hybrid scourge)
    for pug's I also use ministrel rene + any fb sup(no big diff is thi is diviner, seraps or harrier )

  • @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

  • @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    You are wrongly asuming that power firebrand cannot provide boons. No reason to swap gear when you have stability, retaliation, might, fury aegis from dps firebrand and proection from heal renegade. Renegade can easily clense conditions. Firebrand can still clense conditions using F2 and it is true that you lose cc on shield but renegade can use stafff 5 more freely because he will not lose 10k+ damage while doing so.
    I have done sirens reef with heal renegade and full dps firebrand and we had no problems. Sometimes I didnt have to use half of energy on heal spells just because everyone was full all the time.
    I have done sirens reef as a chrono with druid healer and we had no problems (even when druid heals much less then renegade). So I cannot Imagine fractal where renegade healer isnt better then firebrand.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    8k? This is good result, real good. Be ready for members whit 3 - 5 k dps. In a comment about dps thay have answer what they don't use any dps meters because still dont' have official meters from arenanet

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    You are wrongly asuming that power firebrand cannot provide boons. No reason to swap gear when you have stability, retaliation, might, fury aegis from dps firebrand and proection from heal renegade. Renegade can easily clense conditions. Firebrand can still clense conditions using F2 and it is true that you lose cc on shield but renegade can use stafff 5 more freely because he will not lose 10k+ damage while doing so.
    I have done sirens reef with heal renegade and full dps firebrand and we had no problems. Sometimes I didnt have to use half of energy on heal spells just because everyone was full all the time.
    I have done sirens reef as a chrono with druid healer and we had no problems (even when druid heals much less then renegade). So I cannot Imagine fractal where renegade healer isnt better then firebrand.

    Point is, if you focus so much on providing that support on a Quickbrand (running Axe, spending more time in Tomes, taking non dps utility skills, potentially running full Diviners etc.), your DPS almost suffers to a point of a Diviner Renegade, at which point you might as well take that with a heal FB instead, and get those boons much more consistent (especially Stab and Aegis), as well as better access to other utility, more consistent healing, Might for splits etc.

    Also just because you (or me for that matter) won't struggle at all with a heal Ren or even Druid in situations like Siren's Reef with nasty instabilities, doesn't mean others don't. That comes mostly down to our groups consisting of 250KP+ Fractal Gods with meta food providing enough DPS to quickly skip by the most dangerous mechanics instead of having to endure them for quite some time (speaking for myself, I imagine your situation is similar).

    I'm not trying to tell you that support FB is better in that case. It's not. It's just much more relaxed while barely losing any speed in terms of clear times for good groups, while for less proficient groups, it can make a massive difference, turning a frustrating experience of wiping with not so good players, into a smooth clear like nothing else can.

    It's just personal preference at that point.
    If I want to pug CM's+T4+Rec smoothly in under an hour, sup FB is the most consistent choice to do so, imo.

    /E:
    To elaborate on where I'm coming from with this opinion,
    I had multiple (high KP) groups already insist on running Heal Ren + Quickbrand, scoffing at Heal FB, where I ended up frantically having to try to keep the party alive with Resolve and Aegising and reflecting every mechanic I could (while still out dpsing a DPS), with the group still wiping multiple times, wasting much time, before heeding my suggestion to try switching the comp to heal FB + Alacrigade, after which it was smooth sailing.
    Not to say that comp is worse, it's not when in good hands, I just prefer not to waste that time any more gambling on my pugs.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    You are wrongly asuming that power firebrand cannot provide boons. No reason to swap gear when you have stability, retaliation, might, fury aegis from dps firebrand and proection from heal renegade. Renegade can easily clense conditions. Firebrand can still clense conditions using F2 and it is true that you lose cc on shield but renegade can use stafff 5 more freely because he will not lose 10k+ damage while doing so.
    I have done sirens reef with heal renegade and full dps firebrand and we had no problems. Sometimes I didnt have to use half of energy on heal spells just because everyone was full all the time.
    I have done sirens reef as a chrono with druid healer and we had no problems (even when druid heals much less then renegade). So I cannot Imagine fractal where renegade healer isnt better then firebrand.

    Point is, if you focus so much on providing that support on a Quickbrand (running Axe, spending more time in Tomes, taking non dps utility skills, potentially running full Diviners etc.), your DPS almost suffers to a point of a Diviner Renegade, at which point you might as well take that with a heal FB instead, and get those boons much more consistent (especially Stab and Aegis), as well as better access to other utility, more consistent healing, Might for splits etc.

    Also just because you (or me for that matter) won't struggle at all with a heal Ren or even Druid in situations like Siren's Reef with nasty instabilities, doesn't mean others don't. That comes mostly down to our groups consisting of 250KP+ Fractal Gods with meta food providing enough DPS to quickly skip by the most dangerous mechanics instead of having to endure them for quite some time (speaking for myself, I imagine your situation is similar).

    I'm not trying to tell you that support FB is better in that case. It's not. It's just much more relaxed while barely losing any speed in terms of clear times for good groups, while for less proficient groups, it can make a massive difference, turning a frustrating experience of wiping with not so good players, into a smooth clear like nothing else can.

    It's just personal preference at that point.
    If I want to pug CM's+T4+Rec smoothly in under an hour, sup FB is the most consistent choice to do so, imo.

    /E:
    To elaborate on where I'm coming from with this opinion,
    I had multiple (high KP) groups already insist on running Heal Ren + Quickbrand, scoffing at Heal FB, where I ended up frantically having to try to keep the party alive with Resolve and Aegising and reflecting every mechanic I could (while still out dpsing a DPS), with the group still wiping multiple times, wasting much time, before heeding my suggestion to try switching the comp to heal FB + Alacrigade, after which it was smooth sailing.
    Not to say that comp is worse, it's not when in good hands, I just prefer not to waste that time any more gambling on my pugs.

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    You are wrongly asuming that power firebrand cannot provide boons. No reason to swap gear when you have stability, retaliation, might, fury aegis from dps firebrand and proection from heal renegade. Renegade can easily clense conditions. Firebrand can still clense conditions using F2 and it is true that you lose cc on shield but renegade can use stafff 5 more freely because he will not lose 10k+ damage while doing so.
    I have done sirens reef with heal renegade and full dps firebrand and we had no problems. Sometimes I didnt have to use half of energy on heal spells just because everyone was full all the time.
    I have done sirens reef as a chrono with druid healer and we had no problems (even when druid heals much less then renegade). So I cannot Imagine fractal where renegade healer isnt better then firebrand.

    Point is, if you focus so much on providing that support on a Quickbrand (running Axe, spending more time in Tomes, taking non dps utility skills, potentially running full Diviners etc.), your DPS almost suffers to a point of a Diviner Renegade, at which point you might as well take that with a heal FB instead, and get those boons much more consistent (especially Stab and Aegis), as well as better access to other utility, more consistent healing, Might for splits etc.

    Also just because you (or me for that matter) won't struggle at all with a heal Ren or even Druid in situations like Siren's Reef with nasty instabilities, doesn't mean others don't. That comes mostly down to our groups consisting of 250KP+ Fractal Gods with meta food providing enough DPS to quickly skip by the most dangerous mechanics instead of having to endure them for quite some time (speaking for myself, I imagine your situation is similar).

    I'm not trying to tell you that support FB is better in that case. It's not. It's just much more relaxed while barely losing any speed in terms of clear times for good groups, while for less proficient groups, it can make a massive difference, turning a frustrating experience of wiping with not so good players, into a smooth clear like nothing else can.

    It's just personal preference at that point.
    If I want to pug CM's+T4+Rec smoothly in under an hour, sup FB is the most consistent choice to do so, imo.

    /E:
    To elaborate on where I'm coming from with this opinion,
    I had multiple (high KP) groups already insist on running Heal Ren + Quickbrand, scoffing at Heal FB, where I ended up frantically having to try to keep the party alive with Resolve and Aegising and reflecting every mechanic I could (while still out dpsing a DPS), with the group still wiping multiple times, wasting much time, before heeding my suggestion to try switching the comp to heal FB + Alacrigade, after which it was smooth sailing.
    Not to say that comp is worse, it's not when in good hands, I just prefer not to waste that time any more gambling on my pugs.

    If you are saying that your parties need heal firebrand to survive then i cannot imagine how you could clear fractals with druid that can heal only after certain interval. In firebrand/renegade comp (both options) firebrand is there to provide fury, aegis, some might and retaliation. If stability is needed (right now i cannot remember a mechanic where aegis doesnt work but stability does) then dps firebrand can exchange one skill to get it. All of those boons are provided by dps firebrand anyway without any special effort.
    Your idea simply gives healing to firebrand from renegade. You lose all the reactive options that renegade have. You basicaly drop one of the best healers for another (maybe even stronger) full healer and on top of that you have 386 hp PER HIT for half of the fight duration. I am not sure but i think full harrier druid will not heal as much as diviners renegade summit in the whole fight yet it was possible to clear fractals with druid for soo long.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    You are wrongly asuming that power firebrand cannot provide boons. No reason to swap gear when you have stability, retaliation, might, fury aegis from dps firebrand and proection from heal renegade. Renegade can easily clense conditions. Firebrand can still clense conditions using F2 and it is true that you lose cc on shield but renegade can use stafff 5 more freely because he will not lose 10k+ damage while doing so.
    I have done sirens reef with heal renegade and full dps firebrand and we had no problems. Sometimes I didnt have to use half of energy on heal spells just because everyone was full all the time.
    I have done sirens reef as a chrono with druid healer and we had no problems (even when druid heals much less then renegade). So I cannot Imagine fractal where renegade healer isnt better then firebrand.

    Point is, if you focus so much on providing that support on a Quickbrand (running Axe, spending more time in Tomes, taking non dps utility skills, potentially running full Diviners etc.), your DPS almost suffers to a point of a Diviner Renegade, at which point you might as well take that with a heal FB instead, and get those boons much more consistent (especially Stab and Aegis), as well as better access to other utility, more consistent healing, Might for splits etc.

    Also just because you (or me for that matter) won't struggle at all with a heal Ren or even Druid in situations like Siren's Reef with nasty instabilities, doesn't mean others don't. That comes mostly down to our groups consisting of 250KP+ Fractal Gods with meta food providing enough DPS to quickly skip by the most dangerous mechanics instead of having to endure them for quite some time (speaking for myself, I imagine your situation is similar).

    I'm not trying to tell you that support FB is better in that case. It's not. It's just much more relaxed while barely losing any speed in terms of clear times for good groups, while for less proficient groups, it can make a massive difference, turning a frustrating experience of wiping with not so good players, into a smooth clear like nothing else can.

    It's just personal preference at that point.
    If I want to pug CM's+T4+Rec smoothly in under an hour, sup FB is the most consistent choice to do so, imo.

    /E:
    To elaborate on where I'm coming from with this opinion,
    I had multiple (high KP) groups already insist on running Heal Ren + Quickbrand, scoffing at Heal FB, where I ended up frantically having to try to keep the party alive with Resolve and Aegising and reflecting every mechanic I could (while still out dpsing a DPS), with the group still wiping multiple times, wasting much time, before heeding my suggestion to try switching the comp to heal FB + Alacrigade, after which it was smooth sailing.
    Not to say that comp is worse, it's not when in good hands, I just prefer not to waste that time any more gambling on my pugs.

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    You are wrongly asuming that power firebrand cannot provide boons. No reason to swap gear when you have stability, retaliation, might, fury aegis from dps firebrand and proection from heal renegade. Renegade can easily clense conditions. Firebrand can still clense conditions using F2 and it is true that you lose cc on shield but renegade can use stafff 5 more freely because he will not lose 10k+ damage while doing so.
    I have done sirens reef with heal renegade and full dps firebrand and we had no problems. Sometimes I didnt have to use half of energy on heal spells just because everyone was full all the time.
    I have done sirens reef as a chrono with druid healer and we had no problems (even when druid heals much less then renegade). So I cannot Imagine fractal where renegade healer isnt better then firebrand.

    Point is, if you focus so much on providing that support on a Quickbrand (running Axe, spending more time in Tomes, taking non dps utility skills, potentially running full Diviners etc.), your DPS almost suffers to a point of a Diviner Renegade, at which point you might as well take that with a heal FB instead, and get those boons much more consistent (especially Stab and Aegis), as well as better access to other utility, more consistent healing, Might for splits etc.

    Also just because you (or me for that matter) won't struggle at all with a heal Ren or even Druid in situations like Siren's Reef with nasty instabilities, doesn't mean others don't. That comes mostly down to our groups consisting of 250KP+ Fractal Gods with meta food providing enough DPS to quickly skip by the most dangerous mechanics instead of having to endure them for quite some time (speaking for myself, I imagine your situation is similar).

    I'm not trying to tell you that support FB is better in that case. It's not. It's just much more relaxed while barely losing any speed in terms of clear times for good groups, while for less proficient groups, it can make a massive difference, turning a frustrating experience of wiping with not so good players, into a smooth clear like nothing else can.

    It's just personal preference at that point.
    If I want to pug CM's+T4+Rec smoothly in under an hour, sup FB is the most consistent choice to do so, imo.

    /E:
    To elaborate on where I'm coming from with this opinion,
    I had multiple (high KP) groups already insist on running Heal Ren + Quickbrand, scoffing at Heal FB, where I ended up frantically having to try to keep the party alive with Resolve and Aegising and reflecting every mechanic I could (while still out dpsing a DPS), with the group still wiping multiple times, wasting much time, before heeding my suggestion to try switching the comp to heal FB + Alacrigade, after which it was smooth sailing.
    Not to say that comp is worse, it's not when in good hands, I just prefer not to waste that time any more gambling on my pugs.

    If you are saying that your parties need heal firebrand to survive then i cannot imagine how you could clear fractals with druid that can heal only after certain interval. In firebrand/renegade comp (both options) firebrand is there to provide fury, aegis, some might and retaliation. If stability is needed (right now i cannot remember a mechanic where aegis doesnt work but stability does) then dps firebrand can exchange one skill to get it. All of those boons are provided by dps firebrand anyway without any special effort.
    Your idea simply gives healing to firebrand from renegade. You lose all the reactive options that renegade have. You basicaly drop one of the best healers for another (maybe even stronger) full healer and on top of that you have 386 hp PER HIT for half of the fight duration. I am not sure but i think full harrier druid will not heal as much as diviners renegade summit in the whole fight yet it was possible to clear fractals with druid for soo long.

    Okay, again. It's not about need, it's about wanting consistency and ease of play, as long as it isn't to a severe detriment to clear time.
    I have done multiple no heal runs, with both FB and Ren running the hybrid DPS build just fine. With the right pugs, I don't need a heal at all.
    But it's a lot more effort to play with that comp, it's not consistently good to run with pugs of which I do not know the skill level, and I don't want to be ridiculous and sit around in LFG asking for 400+ KP, just to be done 10 minutes faster with Fractals, if everything goes smoothly.

    The choice of should the FB or Renegade heal is a similar one, where I personally prefer consistency and gameplay experience of having the FB heal, rather than the Renegade.
    One is marginally faster, the other one substantially more relaxed.

    There is no need for either of them.

    At this point you are arguing against personal preference from experience, and I'm not quite sure to what end.
    All I'm saying is, non of these comps is universally the best, unless clear time differences of 1-10 minutes is all you care about.
    It's just about what you want out of that time.

    If you want a really fast and efficient clear with good players, no heal is the way to go, if you are fine with being a bit slower but having a much more relaxed time, Firebrand heal is the way to go, if you want something in between, Renegade heal is the way to go.

    I'm not going to tell anyone that they are wrong with any of these choices.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    You are wrongly asuming that power firebrand cannot provide boons. No reason to swap gear when you have stability, retaliation, might, fury aegis from dps firebrand and proection from heal renegade. Renegade can easily clense conditions. Firebrand can still clense conditions using F2 and it is true that you lose cc on shield but renegade can use stafff 5 more freely because he will not lose 10k+ damage while doing so.
    I have done sirens reef with heal renegade and full dps firebrand and we had no problems. Sometimes I didnt have to use half of energy on heal spells just because everyone was full all the time.
    I have done sirens reef as a chrono with druid healer and we had no problems (even when druid heals much less then renegade). So I cannot Imagine fractal where renegade healer isnt better then firebrand.

    Point is, if you focus so much on providing that support on a Quickbrand (running Axe, spending more time in Tomes, taking non dps utility skills, potentially running full Diviners etc.), your DPS almost suffers to a point of a Diviner Renegade, at which point you might as well take that with a heal FB instead, and get those boons much more consistent (especially Stab and Aegis), as well as better access to other utility, more consistent healing, Might for splits etc.

    Also just because you (or me for that matter) won't struggle at all with a heal Ren or even Druid in situations like Siren's Reef with nasty instabilities, doesn't mean others don't. That comes mostly down to our groups consisting of 250KP+ Fractal Gods with meta food providing enough DPS to quickly skip by the most dangerous mechanics instead of having to endure them for quite some time (speaking for myself, I imagine your situation is similar).

    I'm not trying to tell you that support FB is better in that case. It's not. It's just much more relaxed while barely losing any speed in terms of clear times for good groups, while for less proficient groups, it can make a massive difference, turning a frustrating experience of wiping with not so good players, into a smooth clear like nothing else can.

    It's just personal preference at that point.
    If I want to pug CM's+T4+Rec smoothly in under an hour, sup FB is the most consistent choice to do so, imo.

    /E:
    To elaborate on where I'm coming from with this opinion,
    I had multiple (high KP) groups already insist on running Heal Ren + Quickbrand, scoffing at Heal FB, where I ended up frantically having to try to keep the party alive with Resolve and Aegising and reflecting every mechanic I could (while still out dpsing a DPS), with the group still wiping multiple times, wasting much time, before heeding my suggestion to try switching the comp to heal FB + Alacrigade, after which it was smooth sailing.
    Not to say that comp is worse, it's not when in good hands, I just prefer not to waste that time any more gambling on my pugs.

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    You are wrongly asuming that power firebrand cannot provide boons. No reason to swap gear when you have stability, retaliation, might, fury aegis from dps firebrand and proection from heal renegade. Renegade can easily clense conditions. Firebrand can still clense conditions using F2 and it is true that you lose cc on shield but renegade can use stafff 5 more freely because he will not lose 10k+ damage while doing so.
    I have done sirens reef with heal renegade and full dps firebrand and we had no problems. Sometimes I didnt have to use half of energy on heal spells just because everyone was full all the time.
    I have done sirens reef as a chrono with druid healer and we had no problems (even when druid heals much less then renegade). So I cannot Imagine fractal where renegade healer isnt better then firebrand.

    Point is, if you focus so much on providing that support on a Quickbrand (running Axe, spending more time in Tomes, taking non dps utility skills, potentially running full Diviners etc.), your DPS almost suffers to a point of a Diviner Renegade, at which point you might as well take that with a heal FB instead, and get those boons much more consistent (especially Stab and Aegis), as well as better access to other utility, more consistent healing, Might for splits etc.

    Also just because you (or me for that matter) won't struggle at all with a heal Ren or even Druid in situations like Siren's Reef with nasty instabilities, doesn't mean others don't. That comes mostly down to our groups consisting of 250KP+ Fractal Gods with meta food providing enough DPS to quickly skip by the most dangerous mechanics instead of having to endure them for quite some time (speaking for myself, I imagine your situation is similar).

    I'm not trying to tell you that support FB is better in that case. It's not. It's just much more relaxed while barely losing any speed in terms of clear times for good groups, while for less proficient groups, it can make a massive difference, turning a frustrating experience of wiping with not so good players, into a smooth clear like nothing else can.

    It's just personal preference at that point.
    If I want to pug CM's+T4+Rec smoothly in under an hour, sup FB is the most consistent choice to do so, imo.

    /E:
    To elaborate on where I'm coming from with this opinion,
    I had multiple (high KP) groups already insist on running Heal Ren + Quickbrand, scoffing at Heal FB, where I ended up frantically having to try to keep the party alive with Resolve and Aegising and reflecting every mechanic I could (while still out dpsing a DPS), with the group still wiping multiple times, wasting much time, before heeding my suggestion to try switching the comp to heal FB + Alacrigade, after which it was smooth sailing.
    Not to say that comp is worse, it's not when in good hands, I just prefer not to waste that time any more gambling on my pugs.

    If you are saying that your parties need heal firebrand to survive then i cannot imagine how you could clear fractals with druid that can heal only after certain interval. In firebrand/renegade comp (both options) firebrand is there to provide fury, aegis, some might and retaliation. If stability is needed (right now i cannot remember a mechanic where aegis doesnt work but stability does) then dps firebrand can exchange one skill to get it. All of those boons are provided by dps firebrand anyway without any special effort.
    Your idea simply gives healing to firebrand from renegade. You lose all the reactive options that renegade have. You basicaly drop one of the best healers for another (maybe even stronger) full healer and on top of that you have 386 hp PER HIT for half of the fight duration. I am not sure but i think full harrier druid will not heal as much as diviners renegade summit in the whole fight yet it was possible to clear fractals with druid for soo long.

    Okay, again. It's not about need, it's about wanting consistency and ease of play, as long as it isn't to a severe detriment to clear time.
    I have done multiple no heal runs, with both FB and Ren running the hybrid DPS build just fine. With the right pugs, I don't need a heal at all.
    But it's a lot more effort to play with that comp, it's not consistently good to run with pugs of which I do not know the skill level, and I don't want to be ridiculous and sit around in LFG asking for 400+ KP, just to be done 10 minutes faster with Fractals, if everything goes smoothly.

    The choice of should the FB or Renegade heal is a similar one, where I personally prefer consistency and gameplay experience of having the FB heal, rather than the Renegade.
    One is marginally faster, the other one substantially more relaxed.

    There is no need for either of them.

    At this point you are arguing against personal preference from experience, and I'm not quite sure to what end.
    All I'm saying is, non of these comps is universally the best, unless clear time differences of 1-10 minutes is all you care about.
    It's just about what you want out of that time.

    If you want a really fast and efficient clear with good players, no heal is the way to go, if you are fine with being a bit slower but having a much more relaxed time, Firebrand heal is the way to go, if you want something in between, Renegade heal is the way to go.

    I'm not going to tell anyone that they are wrong with any of these choices.

    Well, i guess it is the diference in philosophies. You say that heal FB is your go to choice because if you find bad players you can still clear almost as easily. I am saying that if I ever meet a player that is so bad that I need to play heal firebrand just to compensate for his lack of skill i will just leave the party. It is true that I will be waiting longer in LFG but I can do something in the meantime instead of suffering for way to long in fractals.

    Edit: and I personaly dont like relaxed runs. Relaxed runs are (in my understanding) runs where you dont need to focus on 100 percent, where every mistake count. If run is relaxed and I can do it without focusing 100 percent of a time than it is no better then running around map and harvesting materials. In your composition mistakes dont matter which is why it is boring. I am not saying that heal renegade does not overheal in good party but it is much better in perfect party then heal firebrand but worse if you mess up or your party is bad.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    You are wrongly asuming that power firebrand cannot provide boons. No reason to swap gear when you have stability, retaliation, might, fury aegis from dps firebrand and proection from heal renegade. Renegade can easily clense conditions. Firebrand can still clense conditions using F2 and it is true that you lose cc on shield but renegade can use stafff 5 more freely because he will not lose 10k+ damage while doing so.
    I have done sirens reef with heal renegade and full dps firebrand and we had no problems. Sometimes I didnt have to use half of energy on heal spells just because everyone was full all the time.
    I have done sirens reef as a chrono with druid healer and we had no problems (even when druid heals much less then renegade). So I cannot Imagine fractal where renegade healer isnt better then firebrand.

    Point is, if you focus so much on providing that support on a Quickbrand (running Axe, spending more time in Tomes, taking non dps utility skills, potentially running full Diviners etc.), your DPS almost suffers to a point of a Diviner Renegade, at which point you might as well take that with a heal FB instead, and get those boons much more consistent (especially Stab and Aegis), as well as better access to other utility, more consistent healing, Might for splits etc.

    Also just because you (or me for that matter) won't struggle at all with a heal Ren or even Druid in situations like Siren's Reef with nasty instabilities, doesn't mean others don't. That comes mostly down to our groups consisting of 250KP+ Fractal Gods with meta food providing enough DPS to quickly skip by the most dangerous mechanics instead of having to endure them for quite some time (speaking for myself, I imagine your situation is similar).

    I'm not trying to tell you that support FB is better in that case. It's not. It's just much more relaxed while barely losing any speed in terms of clear times for good groups, while for less proficient groups, it can make a massive difference, turning a frustrating experience of wiping with not so good players, into a smooth clear like nothing else can.

    It's just personal preference at that point.
    If I want to pug CM's+T4+Rec smoothly in under an hour, sup FB is the most consistent choice to do so, imo.

    /E:
    To elaborate on where I'm coming from with this opinion,
    I had multiple (high KP) groups already insist on running Heal Ren + Quickbrand, scoffing at Heal FB, where I ended up frantically having to try to keep the party alive with Resolve and Aegising and reflecting every mechanic I could (while still out dpsing a DPS), with the group still wiping multiple times, wasting much time, before heeding my suggestion to try switching the comp to heal FB + Alacrigade, after which it was smooth sailing.
    Not to say that comp is worse, it's not when in good hands, I just prefer not to waste that time any more gambling on my pugs.

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    As DPS/Quickbrand/Support FB player, I would love to see more Diviner Renegades.
    Harrier Renegade + Quickbrand looks good on paper, but Harrier Firebrand + Diviner Renegade is much smoother and usually faster in my experience.

    Support FB carries much harder, especially through the new instabilities, while with Heal Renegade, I barely notice a difference to running no heal at all, due to the lower DPS needed to phase quickly enough, while not providing enough support offset that.
    Not sure why people are so keen on support Renegade + Quickbrand, just because it's a bit higher group DPS on paper, while not translating into practice at all, unless you got really good players, at which point you might as well run no heal.

    Chrono + Druid is worse in every single way, except for skips in some Fractals, where nothing can compete with Chrono (but even then I would run Chrono + Support FB over Druid).

    In summary,
    Harrier Renegade and Quickbrand (Power FB) are usually what is wanted by pugs, as they tend to use comps which they are told are more DPS on paper, even if they can't translate that into gameplay. Shines in proficient statics.
    Diviner Renegade and Heal FB is smoother and therefore usually faster, especially for pugs, but not as popular. Shines in pugs and for rough instabilities.
    Diviner Renegade + power FB (no heal comp) is incredible fast, but requires very good players, and even in 250+KP pug groups is rarely run since the new Instabilities were introduced.
    Chrono + Druid if you enjoy pain, most frequent in non CM groups.
    Chrono + sup FB is technically great for Fractals with skips, but suffers from low DPS and CC when compared to FB + Ren for everything else, while having some redundancy in terms of support.

    Main reason why healer ren is better then healer fb is burst. Power renegade has 0 burst so especialy in fractals power fb is better. Also i dont understand how can heal fb make runs smoother when only diference is healing and it takes great skill to die with renegade healer.
    It is true that for bad groups renegade healer heals nothing since group need to stack and actualy atack the boss to get those heals but bad groups might not get healed by fb either. Also bad groups are mostly non cm and in non cm fractals chrono is still better thanks to skips, pulls and shorter phases.

    CM maybe different because you need dps but for the rest I definitely I choose FB heal reason its not so much about heal but you have : stabi , resistance, retaliation , protection, aegis also might and fury and on the healing side you can switch in condi cleanse instead of more stabi and the shield 5 is a good cc.

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    Whats then about the old content/ older fractals and instabilities ? The same was Arena.NET always do cheesed old content

    You are wrongly asuming that power firebrand cannot provide boons. No reason to swap gear when you have stability, retaliation, might, fury aegis from dps firebrand and proection from heal renegade. Renegade can easily clense conditions. Firebrand can still clense conditions using F2 and it is true that you lose cc on shield but renegade can use stafff 5 more freely because he will not lose 10k+ damage while doing so.
    I have done sirens reef with heal renegade and full dps firebrand and we had no problems. Sometimes I didnt have to use half of energy on heal spells just because everyone was full all the time.
    I have done sirens reef as a chrono with druid healer and we had no problems (even when druid heals much less then renegade). So I cannot Imagine fractal where renegade healer isnt better then firebrand.

    Point is, if you focus so much on providing that support on a Quickbrand (running Axe, spending more time in Tomes, taking non dps utility skills, potentially running full Diviners etc.), your DPS almost suffers to a point of a Diviner Renegade, at which point you might as well take that with a heal FB instead, and get those boons much more consistent (especially Stab and Aegis), as well as better access to other utility, more consistent healing, Might for splits etc.

    Also just because you (or me for that matter) won't struggle at all with a heal Ren or even Druid in situations like Siren's Reef with nasty instabilities, doesn't mean others don't. That comes mostly down to our groups consisting of 250KP+ Fractal Gods with meta food providing enough DPS to quickly skip by the most dangerous mechanics instead of having to endure them for quite some time (speaking for myself, I imagine your situation is similar).

    I'm not trying to tell you that support FB is better in that case. It's not. It's just much more relaxed while barely losing any speed in terms of clear times for good groups, while for less proficient groups, it can make a massive difference, turning a frustrating experience of wiping with not so good players, into a smooth clear like nothing else can.

    It's just personal preference at that point.
    If I want to pug CM's+T4+Rec smoothly in under an hour, sup FB is the most consistent choice to do so, imo.

    /E:
    To elaborate on where I'm coming from with this opinion,
    I had multiple (high KP) groups already insist on running Heal Ren + Quickbrand, scoffing at Heal FB, where I ended up frantically having to try to keep the party alive with Resolve and Aegising and reflecting every mechanic I could (while still out dpsing a DPS), with the group still wiping multiple times, wasting much time, before heeding my suggestion to try switching the comp to heal FB + Alacrigade, after which it was smooth sailing.
    Not to say that comp is worse, it's not when in good hands, I just prefer not to waste that time any more gambling on my pugs.

    If you are saying that your parties need heal firebrand to survive then i cannot imagine how you could clear fractals with druid that can heal only after certain interval. In firebrand/renegade comp (both options) firebrand is there to provide fury, aegis, some might and retaliation. If stability is needed (right now i cannot remember a mechanic where aegis doesnt work but stability does) then dps firebrand can exchange one skill to get it. All of those boons are provided by dps firebrand anyway without any special effort.
    Your idea simply gives healing to firebrand from renegade. You lose all the reactive options that renegade have. You basicaly drop one of the best healers for another (maybe even stronger) full healer and on top of that you have 386 hp PER HIT for half of the fight duration. I am not sure but i think full harrier druid will not heal as much as diviners renegade summit in the whole fight yet it was possible to clear fractals with druid for soo long.

    Okay, again. It's not about need, it's about wanting consistency and ease of play, as long as it isn't to a severe detriment to clear time.
    I have done multiple no heal runs, with both FB and Ren running the hybrid DPS build just fine. With the right pugs, I don't need a heal at all.
    But it's a lot more effort to play with that comp, it's not consistently good to run with pugs of which I do not know the skill level, and I don't want to be ridiculous and sit around in LFG asking for 400+ KP, just to be done 10 minutes faster with Fractals, if everything goes smoothly.

    The choice of should the FB or Renegade heal is a similar one, where I personally prefer consistency and gameplay experience of having the FB heal, rather than the Renegade.
    One is marginally faster, the other one substantially more relaxed.

    There is no need for either of them.

    At this point you are arguing against personal preference from experience, and I'm not quite sure to what end.
    All I'm saying is, non of these comps is universally the best, unless clear time differences of 1-10 minutes is all you care about.
    It's just about what you want out of that time.

    If you want a really fast and efficient clear with good players, no heal is the way to go, if you are fine with being a bit slower but having a much more relaxed time, Firebrand heal is the way to go, if you want something in between, Renegade heal is the way to go.

    I'm not going to tell anyone that they are wrong with any of these choices.

    Well, i guess it is the diference in philosophies. You say that heal FB is your go to choice because if you find bad players you can still clear almost as easily. I am saying that if I ever meet a player that is so bad that I need to play heal firebrand just to compensate for his lack of skill i will just leave the party. It is true that I will be waiting longer in LFG but I can do something in the meantime instead of suffering for way to long in fractals.

    Edit: and I personaly dont like relaxed runs. Relaxed runs are (in my understanding) runs where you dont need to focus on 100 percent, where every mistake count. If run is relaxed and I can do it without focusing 100 percent of a time than it is no better then running around map and harvesting materials. In your composition mistakes dont matter which is why it is boring. I am not saying that heal renegade does not overheal in good party but it is much better in perfect party then heal firebrand but worse if you mess up or your party is bad.

    Yea, that's what I mean with it being down to preference.
    I do enjoy a good tryhard no heal speed run every now and then, but for daily clears, that's just too much effort for me personally a lot of times. Plus there tends to be a lot more toxicity around those groups.
    So if I want to have a "relaxed" sub 1h CM's+T4+Recs run with a healer, it might as well be support FB easy mode, if there's a bad pug or two, or not.
    It's still a lot more engaging to me than as you say, gathering in the open world, but without every mistake someone makes leading to a gg and an outburst of rage from someone.
    So I prefer to play the more risky comps with players I know, while essentially guaranteeing smooth pug runs with sup FB.

    I also understand the players who want to push themselves every single day, trying to be as fast as possible with different foods and slayer sigils for every Fractal, consumables for CC, novelties for movement, and the highest speed comps.
    But that's just not my speed usually.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @lare.5129 said:

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    8k? This is good result, real good. Be ready for members whit 3 - 5 k dps. In a comment about dps thay have answer what they don't use any dps meters because still dont' have official meters from arenanet

    sry this is their life not their dps ^^

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    So a build like this could be something to aim for?
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Renegade_-Boon_Support_Power_DPS(Fractal)
    Diviner Alcigade its gonna be

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/revenant/renegade/alacrity/

    Still trying to figure out
    the rotations, are the one in snow the best to Alicrity?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    The question then is for what is this necessarily? Basically for Siren Reef and some of the newer nasty instability combinations when you frailty you have some players who have 8k!! life with heal alone you don't come very far.

    8k? This is good result, real good. Be ready for members whit 3 - 5 k dps. In a comment about dps thay have answer what they don't use any dps meters because still dont' have official meters from arenanet

    8k life is the hit point pool of a low hit point class (guardian, elementalist, thief) without any vitality gear and under the effect of the Fraility instability (Players are smaller and have 30% less health, but move 25% faster.). As such most attacks even without damage increasing instabilities will result in 1 or 2 hit downstate which makes healing outside of barrier a lot less useful.

    This has nothing to do with dps.

  • No need to argue, I originally played commander chrono, and for DPS I mainly go with power spellbreaker, then 2nd support I have harrier druid, and then viper firebrand, power daredevil, and power reaper. Until they nerfed support chrono to ground, I converted all my viper firebrand to harrier firebrand. And now, I kept on playing my HAMQB (Heal/Aegis/Might/Quickness Firebrand) more than everything else unless we want speed clear so I hop on my spellbreaker. I won’t compare Harrierbrand and Harriergade because it really depends on how well the player is on his/her role.

    I stay neutral on it while I now play 7 classes in fractals all geared up (chrono/spellbreaker/firebrand/renegade/daredevil/druid/reaper)

    I just wanna share my experiences as playing a HAMQB and why I kept on playing
    Currently I only have problem with one level of fractals, which is the Siren Reef, I cannot carry it myself without a scourge (viper w/ epi)

    2ndly Deepstone during Slippery Slopes (hard to shareboons especially aegis)

    Besides these two with slippery slopes, I can carry all fractals

    Why I like playing healerbrand --- (HAMQB)

    H – Heals – Staff (#2 and #4) heal and regen, Mace (#1 <3rd hit heals>, and #2 does regen), and shield #5(2nd hit), then “Hold the Line” regen, and remember all aegis given out heals 1.15k, and then F2’s 5,4,1,1,1 and this 54111 can heal the group in full, and 3 of F3 gives a big heal too, also the trait makes it offer very high regen rate. SC suggested Merciful Intervention, a burst heal, but I use “retreat” for aegis (1.15k heal and block) instead because 1 less hit taken from boss or anything means more than just a heal, also 24 seconds cooldown vs 40

    A – Aegis – Shield #4, mantra healing skill, retreat, and F3’s #2 and #5, if more insurance needed, I use the renewal tome elite skills to recharge tomes, and I have 8 charges per tome, so with recharges included, and elite recharge skill, I can give 8 aegis on F3’s skills, then 3 aegis on healing mantra, an aegis from retreat, and then shield #4, and use the recharge, I give another 8x aegis from F3, also the normal recharged skills, another retreat, 2 more healing mentras or more, and shielf4 so I give like 25 aegis, don’t forget the aegis not just blocking, each heals 1.15k HP too.

    M – Might – Staff #4, Mentra of Potence 3 charges, these 2 skills can quickly make you 24 mights, at mislock you can 25 might too, and MoP gives 20 seconds quickness

    Q – Quickness – Mentra of Potence 20 seconds, and elite’s “Feel My Wrath” 16 seconds so it can go constant quickness unless the mentioned insurance is needed.

    Conclusion: I got used to it, so basically I am good with it, but I believe the pro ones with healer revenant or any other healers can do better than myself! I found for defensive play it’s the best to do with HAMQB + Viper Scourge + (Alacrigade or Chrono) + Bannnerbreaker + another DPS.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Siren's reef is really not that hard with FB; take virtues, take renewed focus; spam F3#3 and #5, wall of reflection; GJ everyone is alive. If really your group have trouble, it's not your fault, they should cleave trashmobs too.
    Ren can do it too with ventari, but the anti-proj is very high ernergy.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Siren's reef is really not that hard with FB; take virtues, take renewed focus; spam F3#3 and #5, wall of reflection; GJ everyone is alive. If really your group have trouble, it's not your fault, they should cleave trashmobs too.
    Ren can do it too with ventari, but the anti-proj is very high ernergy.

    Agree with Virtues and WoR for Siren's Reef, although I still prefer Stab Mantra to counter some of the dazes etc. Traited WoR and Tome Bubble are already enough for perma projectile destruction (or very little downtimes that can be burst healed) if timed correctly.

    @EnidLarr.1478

    One skill I never see mentioned though is Bow of Truth, which is pretty much a mainstay on my bar as support FB, just because of how hard it carries no matter the situation. Doesn't matter if you are in the Bomb at Artsariiv, you can cast it on the group from range, or want to outheal stuff like Siren's Reef, or even allow to just stand in Siax Poison when DPS is low, especially if combined with the 33% Healing modifier from Resolve tome plus Tome 4, essentially nothing can kill you.

    In turn I don't take Pure of Heart for heal on Aegis, but instead either Empowering Might when running Radiance, or Honorable Staff when running Virtues, for more solid Might and or heals (although, if you have really good Might uptime, even in splits, already, Pure of Heart is obviously a great choice to carry even harder), as well as running Axe over Mace for Fury.

    There are only extremely rare circumstances where I would recommend Merciful Intervention over Bow of Truth in PvE, and it's infinitely more value than something like Retreat.
    Feel my Wrath is not needed at all with 100% Boon duration (or close to that) to keep up Quickness. Stab Mantra makes Fractals a lot more enjoyable to play, as well as increasing dps uptime.

    For healing, I would also like to mention the Heal on Dodge minor (Selfless Daring), which especially with the increased Endurance Regen from the Fractal Potion as well as Purity of Body is not to be underestimated. Just got to make sure you don't double dodge to heal shortly before a mechanic you have to dodge.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • EnidLarr.1478EnidLarr.1478 Member ✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Siren's reef is really not that hard with FB; take virtues, take renewed focus; spam F3#3 and #5, wall of reflection; GJ everyone is alive. If really your group have trouble, it's not your fault, they should cleave trashmobs too.
    Ren can do it too with ventari, but the anti-proj is very high ernergy.

    For healing, I would also like to mention the Heal on Dodge minor (Selfless Daring), which especially with the increased Endurance Regen from the Fractal Potion as well as Purity of Body is not to be underestimated. Just got to make sure you don't double dodge to heal shortly before a mechanic you have to dodge.

    Zhaid thx, and Asum lol i sometimes forgot that rolling heal too. and yeah out of rolling when needed lol

    My build was based on Pugs, can allow lots of mistakes in the group