Some fractals become unplayable!! — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Some fractals become unplayable!!

some fractals become unplayable!!

  1. Can't see birds in whole graphic mess!!!
  2. they spawn every few seconds!!!
  3. they stay around and re-engage!!! and engage others players in party
  4. REMOVE STUPID BIRDS
  5. Remove all new instabilities, please! i wrote about them all. amek bosses have more armor, more health, but remove all new instabilities, please

@Benjamin Arnold.3457
@Gaile Gray.6029
@Raymond Lukes.6305

<1

Comments

  • I agree to a certain point.
    There should be no birds that hang around only the ones that quickly jump on your head that you can evade away. Also do not let them spawn when you are out of combat. Nothings better than when about to grab a mistlock and boom birds. The birds to feel like they are happening way to often. Not sure what the magic number is there for the refresh but I don't think we are there yet.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Unplayable? no. To my knowledge there have been no fractal instability combinations that made it impossible for the fractal to be completed.

    Not fun? Depending on what we are discussing, I think very much so. Birds in particular keeps coming up in forum posts, and in game party chat, as something that makes playing that fractal not enjoyable. Many comment that they skip fractals where Birds are an instability.

    /shrug

  • Some fractals are rly hard with certain instabs but ur overreacting a bit. Maybe u play with bad composition? For example some time ago we were wiping on sirens untill 1 guy bringed scourge, than we insta killed the boss

  • I don't know how birds are supposed to work, but sometimes even if you dodge there are still birds blinding you for the last seconds, or the ones from your teamates hit you too. You add toxic trail or bleeding fire, ... you put faith in RNG to stay alive

  • @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    I don't know how birds are supposed to work, but sometimes even if you dodge there are still birds blinding you for the last seconds, or the ones from your teamates hit you too. You add toxic trail or bleeding fire, ... you put faith in RNG to stay alive

    Pray to the six and let them guide you. Please grant me enough energy to evade the next attack. haha! We all live to die by that instab combo.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    I would like to see Slippery Slope removed, just because it's anti fun and lacking any counter.
    I'm fine with the other new instabilities, as they finally add some minor challenge to some Fractals/encounters which previously were boring, as well as introducing mechanical interaction, such as making projectile defense generally more valuable with Bleed Fire, although some combinations at some encounters do get kind of silly, mainly damage and attack speed modifiers on vast amounts of trash mobs.

    Birds is annoying, but well, dodge.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    Birds is annoying, but well, dodge.

    yes dodge, dodge and waste your only defensive mech. Dodge doesn't work to juveniles that are result of dodging bit latter cus you were outta energy.
    And it's the juvenile trash that is annoying, not the birds itself.

    Mr. Z, open this gate. Mr. Z... Mr. Z, tear down this wall!

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    Some combinations Are hard to pass thru. But keep all of this. Finally little bit challange. Birds Are ok.only thing i dont like on birds Is they Spawn out of combat too So i takes 2sec of your time to kilo then.

    Jokaurene

  • @Catchyfx.5768 said:
    Some combinations Are hard to pass thru. But keep all of this. Finally little bit challange. Birds Are ok.only thing i dont like on birds Is they Spawn out of combat too So i takes 2sec of your time to kilo then.

    really?!
    with harpies on your back?! 2sec?
    it took 10min for us 5 to pass all of harpies with birds on uncategorized

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Unplayable? no. To my knowledge there have been no fractal instability combinations that made it impossible for the fractal to be completed.

    really?!
    combinations?!
    any instability/dodge thing: when you keep dodging, can't dodge boss. or wait for dodging moment and loose dps...

    Not fun? Depending on what we are discussing, I think very much so. Birds in particular keeps coming up in forum posts, and in game party chat, as something that makes playing that fractal not enjoyable. Many comment that they skip fractals where Birds are an instability.

    no it's not fun. it frustrating, anoying

    challange?! slippery thing on precise moving/jumping: that is "challange"?!!
    Bleed fire thing in places like urban playground with plenty of adds, like Siren's reef
    Siren's reef with birds only is unplayable!!!!

    Want "challange"? try cm? no?! go raids? no? go in parties of 4? or parties of 3? no? go solo

    just don't defend company's mistake

    @Benjamin Arnold.3457
    @Gaile Gray.6029
    @Raymond Lukes.6305

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @totaloverride.3240 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:
    Some combinations Are hard to pass thru. But keep all of this. Finally little bit challange. Birds Are ok.only thing i dont like on birds Is they Spawn out of combat too So i takes 2sec of your time to kilo then.

    really?!
    with harpies on your back?! 2sec?
    it took 10min for us 5 to pass all of harpies with birds on uncategorized

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Unplayable? no. To my knowledge there have been no fractal instability combinations that made it impossible for the fractal to be completed.

    really?!
    combinations?!
    any instability/dodge thing: when you keep dodging, can't dodge boss. or wait for dodging moment and loose dps...

    Not fun? Depending on what we are discussing, I think very much so. Birds in particular keeps coming up in forum posts, and in game party chat, as something that makes playing that fractal not enjoyable. Many comment that they skip fractals where Birds are an instability.

    no it's not fun. it frustrating, anoying

    challange?! slippery thing on precise moving/jumping: that is "challange"?!!
    Bleed fire thing in places like urban playground with plenty of adds, like Siren's reef
    Siren's reef with birds only is unplayable!!!!

    Want "challange"? try cm? no?! go raids? no? go in parties of 4? or parties of 3? no? go solo

    just don't defend company's mistake

    @Benjamin Arnold.3457
    @Gaile Gray.6029
    @Raymond Lukes.6305

    I'm doing CM's daily already, with the new instabilities, just fine.

    You can kill the Harpies, or utilize tools like stealth, portals and projectile defense to skip past them. Neither takes 10 minutes, birds or not.

    A lot of professions have projectile defense, but if you refuse to adapt and improve, yes, Bleed Fire can be a pain.
    Bleed Fire of adds doesn't do a lot of direct damage, and the burn can be cleansed after, if there is a lot of them. Bleed fire on bosses should either be dodged, blocked or negated with projectile defense. It has a pretty well designed tell when it's about to happen.
    Even as DPS without altering your kit you have options to negate it, be it Whirling Defense on a Slb, Shield of Courage on a DH, extra dodges as Daredevil or what have you.
    If it comes together with Birds, which already eats your dodges, your support, be it Druid, Firebrand, Renegade, Chrono or whatever your are running, needs to learn to negate projectiles. They have the tools, be it direct projectile negation or well timed Aegis.

    Not sure how Bird's make Siren's Reef unplayable. The only thing that comes to mind is the treasure part, due to your group not working as a team, chain throwing them to each other, but instead dodging for no reason to move, and then getting birds while not regenerating endurance. A situation which can be avoided completely.
    The birds that spawn can easily be pulled in and cleaved.

    I don't think any Fractal regulars are defending Slippery Slope. Yes, it's awful and doesn't really add anything, since it doesn't have any counter play which you can adapt to. It's just something you have to deal with, akin to old SA, but even more annoying.
    The effect it has on gameplay is too great for it to lack counterplay, imo.

    The most lethal instabilities I found are a combination of Sugar Rush with one or more damage modifiers, such as Outflanked (requiring add cleave) or Stick Together (requiring tight stacking), but they can be played around as well, and shouldn't too big of an issue unless you are running a no heal comp.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Blueberry.8095Blueberry.8095 Member ✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    I don't feel like certain combination of instabilities is 100% unplayable, but it's close, like 90%, because most of the time we just had to painfully endured it. Fractal went from my favourite daily to my daily dose of frustration.

    Some people who like slippery slope praises it, but they forgot the fact that motion sickness is a thing to the other people who felt it. It's kinda playable if you just tough it up and rush to the toilet later or spend a few minutes after to calm self down, but not really playable in a sense that people who get affected by it would just refuse to do the fractal with this mechanic, because fast pace game with slippery slope equals to spinning yourself on the same spot until you faint or throw up, at least to me anyway. I play game to have fun, so why bother if playing a game that make me sick? I'm sure if I skip that particular fractal, I can spend the same amount of time it takes to fail until I succeed and use it in Silverwaste farming instead, I can earn much more and more enjoyable.

    Talking about challenging, I finally got to join a Xera training the first time. We were wiped so many times because people keep making mistake here and there. But guess what? I didn't feel that it was annoying nor frustrating, I can see what mistake I make, I can see what I got hit by, I know what the challenge is. We didn't manage to finish the boss but I left with a sense that I learnt and I know how to improve at the end of it; Let's go back to fractal, Slippery Slope or birds that spits fire/received boons in Siren Reef though??? SS is not only making some people who has motion sickness issue feels discomfort, it's not something that you can adapt, but also make certain skills doesn't work properly. Birds..... you don't always see them, sometimes the surrounding are busy with all the AOE spams by the boss (I'm looking at you Twilight Oasis/Siren Reef), even if you manage to dodge but that's not the end, the Juveniles also attack you?? Birds spawns with Boons??? Best part is they also spawn too often and take away your dodges, I'm glad I've retired my weaver from fractal or I'll have trouble surviving. Challenging? More like artificial difficulty and annoyance to me. I'd rather get wiped many times in raid than in fractal with those instabilities.

    Not only Slippery slope and birds, they need to tone some instabilities aswell. There are already tons of feedback both on the forum and on reddit that what's wrong with the new instabilities, such as the outflank definition is too lenient, but at least they're acceptable if tone down a bit more; SS & birds however, should be deleted.

  • Birds are evil.

  • I have seen more people hate birds and bleed fire then any other.

    And I have been in many games that even with the birds and bleed fire we ran though fast.

    This said does not make them a good thing reason I say this is Because it forces special class and for a game that originally did not want a trinity (a game where you could play any class where ever you want) that sure is a turn about, making you have to wait for the right class or change your charter that you want or like to play.

    About the birds yes that is very frustrating I know the dodge should take them to another enemy that is near by for 4s (NEAR BY) so if not close enough then they come back fast (I have also experienced this that I dodge kill the birds and some one dodge near me and the birds that were attacking them started attacking me) and with all this dodging makes the game less enjoyably and lot harder to stay alive when you need the dodge for the boss or mobs. And yes you can eventually get through tho it problem is it can make a game that takes 10min take 1hr cuz of players that don't have the right class or not enough time leave and also forcing players to change to class they might not really like playing

    Now i do understand the idea of making the game so that there is a spot for every class (that way if you have the class you love to play you can now play it more often) but the way it is being implemented makes a new problem (which is the thing Anett did not want when gw2 came out) I remember them talking about how some times in a LFG you would have to wait a long time just for a healer or tank. And now we have more then just the trinity we have at least 4 if not more. I can see this if it keeps going one day you will have a LFG that is like this "1FB 1Crono 1Scourge 1Spellbreaker 1Soulbeast". this would make the wait time even worse and also can make a game less enjoyable when you can't play every part of the game with your favorite class (and I do see this coming the way things have been going)

    Even in the games that have the trinity I never have felt like I or any other player was so forced to change there class just to play.

  • Kahlan.7249Kahlan.7249 Member ✭✭
    edited February 19, 2019

    @Phoenixtwolf.9213 said:
    Now i do understand the idea of making the game so that there is a spot for every class (that way if you have the class you love to play you can now play it more often) but the way it is being implemented makes a new problem (which is the thing Anett did not want when gw2 came out) I remember them talking about how some times in a LFG you would have to wait a long time just for a healer or tank. And now we have more then just the trinity we have at least 4 if not more. I can see this if it keeps going one day you will have a LFG that is like this "1FB 1Crono 1Scourge 1Spellbreaker 1Soulbeast". this would make the wait time even worse and also can make a game less enjoyable when you can't play every part of the game with your favorite class (and I do see this coming the way things have been going)

    ^ this so much.

    everyone keeps pointing out that adjustment is important, and the thing is, that is so kitten true - it's amazing how much easier siren's reef becomes once i say, switch from ele to scourge. but a lot of times it's not even adjusting within a class (since not every class has projectile defense, plus ofc scourge is just op/makes things so much easier in high-pressure fights), it's just switching to a new class entirely. and bam, suddenly things almost magically become so much easier.

    i haven't played scourge in forever, and i am godawful at it, and STILL it makes things so much easier... even with me playing so poorly.

    and it seems like a weird direction to take the game - certain classes for certain fractals w/ certain instabs. and like, i want to point out that i realize there are people who are skilled enough to make anything work, so this does not affect everyone equally, but for players who are rather new to fractals & pugging, it really is a life-saver, time-saver, and wipe-saver.

    like, you are not going to want to try over and over again w/ a bunch of random people - that's just too much of a waste of time... so it becomes a very appealing route to take.

    and... i am not sure if simply "encouraging people to switch to scourge/whatever" is a direction i want to see this game take. x__x

    which is the problem i have with it.

    (although i suppose for other people, it could be something they appreciate? not sure if it's a competing access needs thing. personally i don't even like communicating w/ people LOOL. but some people might enjoy the extra coordination required & find the outcome more rewarding in the end, and that's understandable. <3 as well as ofc people who can get by w/o scourges in like, siren's reef with birds + fire + outflanked etc. like seriously, that takes skill that i severely lack & kudos to them.)

    a couple other things: i'm not sure i like being so reliant on other people/supports when pugging haha. it's also rather punishing for players who don't have ascended for more than 1 character, and don't have the option to switch.

    obviously not everything has to be viable everywhere, and there will always be certain classes favoured for certain fights and all that. i don't have a problem with respeccing to tempest for say, swampland, deepstone, etc, and staying as s/d weaver (which is by far my favourite thing to play) for nightmare, shattered, etc. that's an adjustment that is completely acceptable to me.

    it might be a fine line, and one that doesn't exist for some people, but on the other hand "switching to a new class entirely [which you may or may not have geared up] and even playing poorly things will become so much easier" is a weird thing, that seems a bit encouraged w/ certain instab combinations in certain fractals, and yes it is workable, livable, not unplayable, but for me the problem is that it's personally not a direction i want to see the game take.

    (for realsies tho, imagine me playing ele in amalalalalalala w/ birds and fire. not-so-great of a fight for either tempest or s/d weaver lol.)

    (irrelevant tidbit: in fights even when it's just birds, i'm always like NOOO when they start coming when i'm channeling air overloads -- do i dodge immediately and interrupt myself, or continue channeling and take damage and see a bunch of "misses"? is something i always have to consider lmao & decide based off of how far along in the channel i am & how much healz i think i'll receive through the rest of it lol. bc the air overloads ARE quite satisfying for killing the juveniles that stay and attack you once the initial birds leave. :P)

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @totaloverride.3240 said:
    some fractals become unplayable!!

    1. Can't see birds in whole graphic mess!!!
    2. they spawn every few seconds!!!
    3. they stay around and re-engage!!! and engage others players in party
    4. REMOVE STUPID BIRDS
    5. Remove all new instabilities, please! i wrote about them all. amek bosses have more armor, more health, but remove all new instabilities, please

    Removed your pinging kitten.

    1. Turn on your sound, the birds get a pretty loud chirpy sound when you have to dodge.
    2. They dont actually.
    3. Just cleave them? Thats the mechanic. You dodge them once, then they attack enemies for 4 seconds and then they come back and you cleave them. They have so few hp, just use 3 cleave autoattacks and stop running around with your hands in the air.
    4. Birds arent stupid
    5. Go play t2 fractals if you get overwhelmed. Honestly, the new instabs are WAY easier than the old ones. Theres just no mega op chrono carrying your sorry kitten anymore.

    I applaud the fractal team for making the instabs very well balanced and the right amount of flavor added to spice fractals up a bit. I also have my "hate" instabs that I just dont like and annoy the heck out of me... but I dont go onto the forum and cry for nerfs just because I cant get my loot just handed to me on logging into fractals.

    @Phoenixtwolf.9213 said:
    I have seen more people hate birds and bleed fire then any other.
    And I have been in many games that even with the birds and bleed fire we ran though fast.

    Its because people dont know how to counter those instabs properly AND still do mechanics on more "difficult" fractals. And both instabs are reactive in nature, something quite a lot of gw2 players seem to struggle with thanks to how ridiculously casual most of the content is.

    @Phoenixtwolf.9213 said:
    This said does not make them a good thing reason I say this is Because it forces special class and for a game that originally did not want a trinity (a game where you could play any class where ever you want) that sure is a turn about, making you have to wait for the right class or change your charter that you want or like to play.

    Every class in gw2 has dodge. Nearly every class can bring some kind of projectile reflect or hate. Every class can bring mass condi remove for itself, most for others as well. You can bring nullification sigils for boon remove, or absorption if you have cc and can time it properly.... You only need "specialty" builds when you dont know your class or you want to shift all support onto dedicated supporters to get more dps out of the rest. The only constraints in t4 fractals, are the ones you yourself put on the group. The problem isnt instabs. The problem is players having no clue how to adapt their BUILDS to counter them. And thats just so sad, its such a step back from where the game was in 2012-2014 when the majority players running fractals/dungeons knew exactly when and how to adapt their traits, weapons and skills to counter specific encounter mechanics. Just shows how absolutely casual the game has become when players think they have to log another class just to get boon remove or projectile hate.

    @Kahlan.7249 said:
    everyone keeps pointing out that adjustment is important, and the thing is, that is so kitten true - it's amazing how much easier siren's reef becomes once i say, switch from ele to scourge. but a lot of times it's not even adjusting within a class (since not every class has projectile defense, plus ofc scourge is just op/makes things so much easier in high-pressure fights), it's just switching to a new class entirely. and bam, suddenly things almost magically become so much easier.

    You could switch your ele just as easily to tempest, slot a staff and add water OL and water5, as well as rebound to your rotation/build. Voila. Easy mode sirens reef. You dont have to switch characters at all for that.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2019

    Instabilities are random, and quite as intended. They are supposed to cause messy moments which force players to adjust to in advance by changing builds and tactics or to make crucial decisions on the fly if they prefer to stick to a fully offensive team no matter the instabilities.
    This very choice in level design is exactly what allows them to keep the base grade of difficulty quite low and forgiving. Some encounters already feel far too easy on a "good instabilities only" day. Imagine having none at all, all the time. I suppose, some people would love nothing more than that but this is not the intend behind high tier Fractals. One of the few places in this game which is supposed to be at least a little challenging.

    The way I see the most complained about instabilities:

    1. Slippery Slope lacks counterplay, I suppose. That's pretty much all I'd complain about. They even disabled it in quite a few places like the puzzles people usually rush through which I wouldn't have done myself.

    2. We Bleed Fire, if anything, is too easy due to the abundance of blocks or projectile hate. My Firebrand's Healing Mantra in particular aligns so well with said instability that some members of my static took forever to fully figure out said instability. They rarely even got hit once in many weeks of the new instabilities. And that's just one example on a single class.

    3. Birds can certainly be annoying at time but they are bound to your dodges. Meaning it is up to you to pay attention which most people struggle with thanks to how used they are to relying on their overstacked supports.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • if you're having problems completing a fractal, try lowering the difficulty and go tier 1 where you don't have instabilities. when you improve you can try higher tiers :) that's what it's made for.

    "clang clang shriiiiek clang!" -Belinda Delaqua
    When I join your LFG

  • @Yasi.9065 said:

    @totaloverride.3240 said:
    some fractals become unplayable!!

    1. Can't see birds in whole graphic mess!!!
    2. they spawn every few seconds!!!
    3. they stay around and re-engage!!! and engage others players in party
    4. REMOVE STUPID BIRDS
    5. Remove all new instabilities, please! i wrote about them all. amek bosses have more armor, more health, but remove all new instabilities, please

    Removed your pinging kitten.

    1. Turn on your sound, the birds get a pretty loud chirpy sound when you have to dodge.
    2. They dont actually.
    3. Just cleave them? Thats the mechanic. You dodge them once, then they attack enemies for 4 seconds and then they come back and you cleave them. They have so few hp, just use 3 cleave autoattacks and stop running around with your hands in the air.
    4. Birds arent stupid
    5. Go play t2 fractals if you get overwhelmed. Honestly, the new instabs are WAY easier than the old ones. Theres just no mega op chrono carrying your sorry kitten anymore.

    ** I applaud the fractal team for making the instabs very well balanced and the right amount of flavor added to spice fractals up a bit. I also have my "hate" instabs that I just dont like and annoy the heck out of me... but I dont go onto the forum and cry for nerfs just because I cant get my loot just handed to me on logging into fractals.**

    LOOL!! Rarely you can see a more contradictory post on this Forum =).
    1. So, OP, the things are so easy in Fractals now that you can go using your hearing now. You don't need to see. The sound is enough. Too easy!
    2. The birds don't spawn every few seconds. Without seeing the birds with my own eyes, I could swear - from this statement - that the birds spawn once at every few hours.
    3. The birds does not re-engage you. And don't engage the others from the group - the birds attacks you and if you waste a dodge the birds will attack the enemy. But the birds will come back to you again. Or to your teammates.
    4. The birds aren't stupid ?? HM?
    5. But, OP, you should understand - the fractals can be whatever possible. It is a fun experience as long as "no mega OP chrono is carying you" - well, this is the main reason we see this kind of answers. The fractals are fun because a certain class is no more needed =)

    Every class in gw2 has dodge. Nearly every class can bring some kind of projectile reflect or hate. Every class can bring mass condi remove for itself, most for others as well. You can bring nullification sigils for boon remove, or absorption if you have cc and can time it properly.... You only need "specialty" builds when you dont know your class or you want to shift all support onto dedicated supporters to get more dps out of the rest. The only constraints in t4 fractals, are the ones you yourself put on the group. The problem isnt instabs. The problem is players having no clue how to adapt their BUILDS to counter them. And thats just so sad, its such a step back from where the game was in 2012-2014 when the majority players running fractals/dungeons knew exactly when and how to adapt their traits, weapons and skills to counter specific encounter mechanics. Just shows how absolutely casual the game has become when players think they have to log another class just to get boon remove or projectile hate.

    So, in 2012-2014 the players running fractals knew exactly what to run. And were successful in what they did. After gaining some experience (for about 5 years) they are unable now to adapt their BUILDS and stats - LOL! this is exactly what another poster highlighted: the need to change the BUILD and stats from one encounter to another. And do you think this is fun? To come back - after 5 years of experience, playing the same fractals (with 3 new added) the players are adviced to play T2? Because T4 is too hard. WHAT? Is this a proof that the game is more casual now? The only different thing are the instabilities. Exactly the subject of this debate. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?
    BTW: If you run a projectile reflect / condi removal and you gear a sigil of absorption (or nullification) for your weapon / then you use your dodges to evade the birds, then, how you will damage the mobs? And moreover, how you will evade the Boss atack?

    I stop here - because what you said is so contradictory that you can fill pages highlighting the anomalies. I understood now - you are happy because the monstrous OP Chrono is no more and the fractal teams will need a Guardian + a Revenant to give them .... the same the Chrono gave. So, you are not against the boons, you are against the Chrono. And, reading your previous posts, against the Druid also. So, you are happy. I don't know if you are happy because the Fractals are now much difficult for most of the other players or you are so happy that the Chrono is no more that you can praise ANet for everything they done in exchange =)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2019

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    So, in 2012-2014 the players running fractals knew exactly what to run. And were successful in what they did. After gaining some experience (for about 5 years) they are unable now to adapt their BUILDS and stats - LOL! this is exactly what another poster highlighted: the need to change the BUILD and stats from one encounter to another. And do you think this is fun? To come back - after 5 years of experience, playing the same fractals (with 3 new added) the players are adviced to play T2? Because T4 is too hard. WHAT? Is this a proof that the game is more casual now? The only different thing are the instabilities. Exactly the subject of this debate. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

    The vast majority of players didn't play fractals until the rework in November 2013. Even after that, the vast majority of players did not play fractals. It wasn't until raids were introduced that a chunk of the player base started running T4 (let's not even get into CMs).

    Fractals were reworked multiple times. The only experience gained in running those inital fractals was getting used to group content and properly dodging attacks (since agony was an instant kill back then). That experience is of the same value now as it was then.

    Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.

    The monstrous chrono was replaced by the monstrous Firebrand while people were constantly complaining that chrono needs nerfs. Not sure how any one here could be blamed for that.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    So, in 2012-2014 the players running fractals knew exactly what to run. And were successful in what they did. After gaining some experience (for about 5 years) they are unable now to adapt their BUILDS and stats - LOL! this is exactly what another poster highlighted: the need to change the BUILD and stats from one encounter to another. And do you think this is fun? To come back - after 5 years of experience, playing the same fractals (with 3 new added) the players are adviced to play T2? Because T4 is too hard. WHAT? Is this a proof that the game is more casual now? The only different thing are the instabilities. Exactly the subject of this debate. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

    The vast majority of players didn't play fractals until the rework in November 2013. Even after that, the vast majority of players did not play fractals. It wasn't until raids were introduced that a chunk of the player base started running T4 (let's not even get into CMs).

    This was the reason I said 5 years of experience. And T4 is another "improvement" to the fractals. Bringing nothing in terms of enjoyment. Until T4 we had only 3 tiers - having all the 100 levels. As the actual T4 structuring. And until T3 we had the old 50 levels fractals, with 5 tiers.

    Fractals were reworked multiple times. The only experience gained in running those inital fractals was getting used to group content and properly dodging attacks (since agony was an instant kill back then). That experience is of the same value now as it was then.

    If this was the purpose of the fractals, then ANet should delete them. Because you gained the knowledge of the group content in dungeons. Also in dungeons you learned how to dodge an attack. And, that players, knowing the group content and knowing how to dodge were able to do the fractals. But now, after multiple reworks in the same fractals they have instabilities. And they cannot do the fractals as before. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

    Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.

    Auto pilot? HM? I remember that I done each and every low level fractal several times only to gather enough AR to get to the next tier. And again each and every fractal to gather AR for the next tier. Leveling my crafting to craft my gear. And so on. Auto pilot? But still, even so, I find the old fractals to be more enjoyable than the actual ones. I do fractals today less and less frequent. On the other hand I done each old fractal on each tier several times without getting bored.

    But, letting my own feelings apart, it seems that you admit the actual fractals are played by less players than before. The fractals are end-game content (together with the raids - the dungeons were excluded). If you take the end-game content from the players letting them nothing to do, then what do you think will be the players reaction?

    The monstrous chrono was replaced by the monstrous Firebrand while people were constantly complaining that chrono needs nerfs. Not sure how any one here could be blamed for that.

    Exactly what I said - not the "monstrosity" was the problem. But the class. And the poster I quoted seems to be very happy with this. I never saw him complaining about Firebrand doing the same thing. But a Chrono was cancerous =).

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    So, in 2012-2014 the players running fractals knew exactly what to run. And were successful in what they did. After gaining some experience (for about 5 years) they are unable now to adapt their BUILDS and stats - LOL! this is exactly what another poster highlighted: the need to change the BUILD and stats from one encounter to another. And do you think this is fun? To come back - after 5 years of experience, playing the same fractals (with 3 new added) the players are adviced to play T2? Because T4 is too hard. WHAT? Is this a proof that the game is more casual now? The only different thing are the instabilities. Exactly the subject of this debate. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

    The vast majority of players didn't play fractals until the rework in November 2013. Even after that, the vast majority of players did not play fractals. It wasn't until raids were introduced that a chunk of the player base started running T4 (let's not even get into CMs).

    This was the reason I said 5 years of experience. And T4 is another "improvement" to the fractals. Bringing nothing in terms of enjoyment. Until T4 we had only 3 tiers - having all the 100 levels. As the actual T4 structuring. And until T3 we had the old 50 levels fractals, with 5 tiers.

    Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.

    Then there was the first version of tiers, where people only ran 3 times swamp. Is that the level you are looking for skill wise?

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Fractals were reworked multiple times. The only experience gained in running those inital fractals was getting used to group content and properly dodging attacks (since agony was an instant kill back then). That experience is of the same value now as it was then.

    If this was the purpose of the fractals, then ANet should delete them. Because you gained the knowledge of the group content in dungeons. Also in dungeons you learned how to dodge an attack. And, that players, knowing the group content and knowing how to dodge were able to do the fractals. But now, after multiple reworks in the same fractals they have instabilities. And they cannot do the fractals as before. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

    Yes, except that dungeons work very differently than fractals. Some of the damage you receive in dungeons is miles above what you are dealt with in fractals.

    I didn't say anything. If I did say something it would be: fractals and fractal difficulty gets adjusted to the games power creep.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.

    Auto pilot? HM? I remember that I done each and every low level fractal several times only to gather enough AR to get to the next tier. And again each and every fractal to gather AR for the next tier. Leveling my crafting to craft my gear. And so on. Auto pilot? But still, even so, I find the old fractals to be more enjoyable than the actual ones. I do fractals today less and less frequent. On the other hand I done each old fractal on each tier several times without getting bored.

    Most of the old fractals are nothing more than free loot. Yes, I'd imagine people enjoy those more. It's basically 0 challenge for top level rewards.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    But, letting my own feelings apart, it seems that you admit the actual fractals are played by less players than before. The fractals are end-game content (together with the raids - the dungeons were excluded). If you take the end-game content from the players letting them nothing to do, then what do you think will be the players reaction?

    Re-read what I said. Fractals see more play now than they did for the initial years of their release.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The monstrous chrono was replaced by the monstrous Firebrand while people were constantly complaining that chrono needs nerfs. Not sure how any one here could be blamed for that.

    Exactly what I said - not the "monstrosity" was the problem. But the class. And the poster I quoted seems to be very happy with this. I never saw him complaining about Firebrand doing the same thing. But a Chrono was cancerous =).

    Depends, it seems a lot of people had issues with chronos carrying the group. Most people, even skill less players, were envious of chronos being in high demand, while their poor dps class of choice was not. As such every one was asking for nerfs. Now that nerfs came, people are suddenly complaining that content is harder. You can't have both.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2019

    Will give a kudo to remove birds, those should be killed with fire and sent to hell. Was way far better without them. Adding no-sense instabilities doesn't bring challenge, I'm okay with the ones telling dodge or use whatever mechanic, but for me we are going further and further from the original concept of fractal which was when "fractured" was released: discover and experiment key moments of tyria history with your friends brought to you by Ellen Kiel! and not "make the fractals the hardest possible with annoying annoyances (no they aren't instabilities)." Old instabilities are way far better, flux bomb doesn't annoy me at all, same for no pain-no gain or last laugh...

    +++In creative mood. New Engie Elite spec' DONE, Housing DONE, New asuran expansion DONE, Designing a new lounge "current", New GameMode DONE

  • IMO birds should die faster, they are just kitten birds. Also we bleed fire should deal less dmg and should deal dmg on reflect- instabs should make fractals harder, not be a major threat. We bleed fire can simply 1 shot

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.

    There were, and there were. Just not as obvious as now. Or maybe you don't remember why people were doing one fractal per each reward tier (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-49, 50) daily?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Depends, it seems a lot of people had issues with chronos carrying the group. Most people, even skill less players, were envious of chronos being in high demand, while their poor dps class of choice was not. As such every one was asking for nerfs. Now that nerfs came, people are suddenly complaining that content is harder. You can't have both.

    Yeah, it was pretty much obvious that nerfing chrono without buffs to other classes that would balance that (which of course didn't happen) would nave some really negative impact on quality of runs in any higher difficulty instanced content. Still, the instability changes did add to that quite significantly and their impact cannot be overlooked.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    This was the reason I said 5 years of experience. And T4 is another "improvement" to the fractals. Bringing nothing in terms of enjoyment. Until T4 we had only 3 tiers - having all the 100 levels. As the actual T4 structuring. And until T3 we had the old 50 levels fractals, with 5 tiers.

    Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.

    Then there was the first version of tiers, where people only ran 3 times swamp. Is that the level you are looking for skill wise?

    I started to play in GW2 in April 2014. And I remember very well we had fractals lvl 1-10 / 11-20 / 21-30/ 31-40 / 41-50. Each tier rewarding you once per day for completion. It may be possible that before April 2014 the Fractals to work differently. I only remember the last 5 years of fractals.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Fractals were reworked multiple times. The only experience gained in running those inital fractals was getting used to group content and properly dodging attacks (since agony was an instant kill back then). That experience is of the same value now as it was then.

    If this was the purpose of the fractals, then ANet should delete them. Because you gained the knowledge of the group content in dungeons. Also in dungeons you learned how to dodge an attack. And, that players, knowing the group content and knowing how to dodge were able to do the fractals. But now, after multiple reworks in the same fractals they have instabilities. And they cannot do the fractals as before. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

    Yes, except that dungeons work very differently than fractals. Some of the damage you receive in dungeons is miles above what you are dealt with in fractals.

    I didn't say anything. If I did say something it would be: fractals and fractal difficulty gets adjusted to the games power creep.

    It was not about the level of damage received from Dungeons. But for the purpose of the Fractals. And I said that if the fractals had the purpose you said, then we already had this kind of content.

    Indeed - fractals adjusted for the power creep. And this is the error in design. Or this spiral is intended? First you have content - hard content. You learn how to play and beat it. Then new specializations appears. The hard content become not-so-hard-anymore. More and more players complete the content. Then you introduce something arbitrary (let's say instabilities) and the content become again harder - but not by itself, but by the add-ons. Less players completing this content. And again, another specialization appears. And again new "instabilities" are invented. And so on. New methods to beat the same content.

    What a lazy attitude! Instead of creating new content according to the new power creep, they keep making the old content more and more annoying - with the help of the "instabilities" implemented with minimal work and even tests.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.

    Auto pilot? HM? I remember that I done each and every low level fractal several times only to gather enough AR to get to the next tier. And again each and every fractal to gather AR for the next tier. Leveling my crafting to craft my gear. And so on. Auto pilot? But still, even so, I find the old fractals to be more enjoyable than the actual ones. I do fractals today less and less frequent. On the other hand I done each old fractal on each tier several times without getting bored.

    Most of the old fractals are nothing more than free loot. Yes, I'd imagine people enjoy those more. It's basically 0 challenge for top level rewards.

    Really? From what I read on this Forum it seems that the top level rewards are located in Istan / Silverwastes / please name the others. In a guide for gold making the Fractals were on the 3-th or 4-th place. So, this is not how you say. Don't try to tell me that the Silverwastes means a lot of challenge.

    And speaking of rewards - I like the Aetherbalde path on Twilight Arbor much much more than the actual fractals. Despite being (almost) no rewarding. Not the reward I had from fractals and now I don't have is the problem. But the degree of fun. I still can do the fractals.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    But, letting my own feelings apart, it seems that you admit the actual fractals are played by less players than before. The fractals are end-game content (together with the raids - the dungeons were excluded). If you take the end-game content from the players letting them nothing to do, then what do you think will be the players reaction?

    Re-read what I said. Fractals see more play now than they did for the initial years of their release.

    You said - "Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt."

    In my interpretation, having players forced to wait until other will invent a spoon for them means the fractals are played now less than before. If you say that this milestone should be the beginning when very few players played them, then OK. It seems that ANet is trying to make the things as in the beginning, having very few players in fractals.
    But you know what? At that time we had the dungeons. Now the dungeons were "improved" by ANet with the declared intention to make them less attractive for the players. Because we have now the Fractals. But it seems they want to take the fractals too from us. And, as the dungeons are still played by few nostalgic, so the fractals will be played by few elite.

    What about the other? The rest of non-elite players? Is this an invitation from ANet to search for another game?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2019

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    What about the other? The rest of non-elite players? Is this an invitation from ANet to search for another game?

    There are 3 Tiers below Tier 4, they even have less of the dreaded Instabilities.
    At some point, you have to ask yourself if you like Fractals, their concept and the challenge they provide in the first place, or if you just want T4 loot, without willing to put in "T4 effort".

    If you do not enjoy adapting your build and profession to beat the difficult content, but you still enjoy and want to play Fractals, the very system of Fractals provides that opportunity.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The monstrous chrono was replaced by the monstrous Firebrand while people were constantly complaining that chrono needs nerfs. Not sure how any one here could be blamed for that.

    Exactly what I said - not the "monstrosity" was the problem. But the class. And the poster I quoted seems to be very happy with this. I never saw him complaining about Firebrand doing the same thing. But a Chrono was cancerous =).

    Depends, it seems a lot of people had issues with chronos carrying the group. Most people, even skill less players, were envious of chronos being in high demand, while their poor dps class of choice was not. As such every one was asking for nerfs. Now that nerfs came, people are suddenly complaining that content is harder. You can't have both.

    The Chrono nerfs were the best thing to happen to GW2 in a very long time.
    And Firebrand does not almost solo every single breakbar while single handedly skipping half of every other Fractal with blinks and portals, nor does it have the same adpull capabilities, or can take care of boon rip, like old Chrono did.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    What about the other? The rest of non-elite players? Is this an invitation from ANet to search for another game?

    There are 3 Tiers below Tier 4, they even have less of the dreaded Instabilities.
    At some point, you have to ask yourself if you like Fractals, their concept and the challenge they provide in the first place, or if you just want T4 loot, without willing to put in "T4 effort".

    I like fractals,
    I like the loot,
    I like the challenge,
    Birds aren't challenge.
    You funboys keep defending low quality content are digging the grave for this game.
    There is a fine line between challenged and annoyed.

    Mr. Z, open this gate. Mr. Z... Mr. Z, tear down this wall!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.

    There were, and there were. Just not as obvious as now. Or maybe you don't remember why people were doing one fractal per each reward tier (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-49, 50) daily?

    Yes, there was reward tiers, but no daily chests. Even ascended armor and weapons were added way later. The only thing which was of value was ascended rings and their infused versions. As such the tier reward system as we know it now with advancing chest rewards was not in place.

    That was also the 2nd version of fractals. The initial one went to 100 and there was no point in going beyond 30 both time and time/reward wise.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Depends, it seems a lot of people had issues with chronos carrying the group. Most people, even skill less players, were envious of chronos being in high demand, while their poor dps class of choice was not. As such every one was asking for nerfs. Now that nerfs came, people are suddenly complaining that content is harder. You can't have both.

    Yeah, it was pretty much obvious that nerfing chrono without buffs to other classes that would balance that (which of course didn't happen) would nave some really negative impact on quality of runs in any higher difficulty instanced content. Still, the instability changes did add to that quite significantly and their impact cannot be overlooked.

    You mean like buffs to FB and Renegade? FB+Ren comp is solid. Support Scourge negates almost any fractal. Multiple Scourge+druid comp works again.

    No, people are just incapable of finding safe strategies and rather bash their heads against a wall running "what they are used to" and complaining about it not working.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    This was the reason I said 5 years of experience. And T4 is another "improvement" to the fractals. Bringing nothing in terms of enjoyment. Until T4 we had only 3 tiers - having all the 100 levels. As the actual T4 structuring. And until T3 we had the old 50 levels fractals, with 5 tiers.

    Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.

    Then there was the first version of tiers, where people only ran 3 times swamp. Is that the level you are looking for skill wise?

    I started to play in GW2 in April 2014. And I remember very well we had fractals lvl 1-10 / 11-20 / 21-30/ 31-40 / 41-50. Each tier rewarding you once per day for completion. It may be possible that before April 2014 the Fractals to work differently. I only remember the last 5 years of fractals.

    Yes, that was the first rework. That was the time when a full fractal run was 3 random fractals and a boss fractal. None of those runs took less than 1 hour or even 1.5 hours with a mediocre PUG group (the ones running around right now). Replaced by triple swamp and then 4 necro+druid runs and comps.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Fractals were reworked multiple times. The only experience gained in running those inital fractals was getting used to group content and properly dodging attacks (since agony was an instant kill back then). That experience is of the same value now as it was then.

    If this was the purpose of the fractals, then ANet should delete them. Because you gained the knowledge of the group content in dungeons. Also in dungeons you learned how to dodge an attack. And, that players, knowing the group content and knowing how to dodge were able to do the fractals. But now, after multiple reworks in the same fractals they have instabilities. And they cannot do the fractals as before. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

    Yes, except that dungeons work very differently than fractals. Some of the damage you receive in dungeons is miles above what you are dealt with in fractals.

    I didn't say anything. If I did say something it would be: fractals and fractal difficulty gets adjusted to the games power creep.

    It was not about the level of damage received from Dungeons. But for the purpose of the Fractals. And I said that if the fractals had the purpose you said, then we already had this kind of content.

    Indeed - fractals adjusted for the power creep. And this is the error in design. Or this spiral is intended? First you have content - hard content. You learn how to play and beat it. Then new specializations appears. The hard content become not-so-hard-anymore. More and more players complete the content. Then you introduce something arbitrary (let's say instabilities) and the content become again harder - but not by itself, but by the add-ons. Less players completing this content. And again, another specialization appears. And again new "instabilities" are invented. And so on. New methods to beat the same content.

    What a lazy attitude! Instead of creating new content according to the new power creep, they keep making the old content more and more annoying - with the help of the "instabilities" implemented with minimal work and even tests.

    Sure, they could make new content. Then please also reduce the rewards for the old content. Ascended is end game level gear. Absolutely no justification to get it cheaper for outdated easy content.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.

    Auto pilot? HM? I remember that I done each and every low level fractal several times only to gather enough AR to get to the next tier. And again each and every fractal to gather AR for the next tier. Leveling my crafting to craft my gear. And so on. Auto pilot? But still, even so, I find the old fractals to be more enjoyable than the actual ones. I do fractals today less and less frequent. On the other hand I done each old fractal on each tier several times without getting bored.

    Most of the old fractals are nothing more than free loot. Yes, I'd imagine people enjoy those more. It's basically 0 challenge for top level rewards.

    Really? From what I read on this Forum it seems that the top level rewards are located in Istan / Silverwastes / please name the others. In a guide for gold making the Fractals were on the 3-th or 4-th place. So, this is not how you say. Don't try to tell me that the Silverwastes means a lot of challenge.

    And speaking of rewards - I like the Aetherbalde path on Twilight Arbor much much more than the actual fractals. Despite being (almost) no rewarding. Not the reward I had from fractals and now I don't have is the problem. But the degree of fun. I still can do the fractals.

    You know this is untrue. Fractals are the most rewarding content if you factor in value of ascended boxes. Even at 1 ascended box per week. That's an additional 10g per day average with chances to get more (or less) on top of the regular loot.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    But, letting my own feelings apart, it seems that you admit the actual fractals are played by less players than before. The fractals are end-game content (together with the raids - the dungeons were excluded). If you take the end-game content from the players letting them nothing to do, then what do you think will be the players reaction?

    Re-read what I said. Fractals see more play now than they did for the initial years of their release.

    You said - "Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt."

    In my interpretation, having players forced to wait until other will invent a spoon for them means the fractals are played now less than before. If you say that this milestone should be the beginning when very few players played them, then OK. It seems that ANet is trying to make the things as in the beginning, having very few players in fractals.
    But you know what? At that time we had the dungeons. Now the dungeons were "improved" by ANet with the declared intention to make them less attractive for the players. Because we have now the Fractals. But it seems they want to take the fractals too from us. And, as the dungeons are still played by few nostalgic, so the fractals will be played by few elite.

    and then dungeon rewards were brought back up. Please don't make me do the calculation again. If you think dungeons are unrewarding right now, you have never done the math behind them. I have and I have run them. The reason dungeons aren't being run is because back during vanilla, dungeons and SW were the most lucrative content. Now there is similar lucrative content which can be run solo and a vast amount of other farm opportunities.

    I didn't say players had to wait. Any player can go and get better at the game and improve and come up with their own builds and strategies. Unfortunately most won't. I don't tend to care about people who just copy others builds and then complain when things get harder.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.

    There were, and there were. Just not as obvious as now. Or maybe you don't remember why people were doing one fractal per each reward tier (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-49, 50) daily?

    Yes, there was reward tiers, but no daily chests.

    There were daily chests. Not the current UI bouncy ones, but there were the chests at the end of the jade maw fractal, and they gave rewards once per day per reward tier.

    Even ascended armor and weapons were added way later. The only thing which was of value was ascended rings and their infused versions. As such the tier reward system as we know it now with advancing chest rewards was not in place.

    Yes, the current one wasn't in place yet. This doesn't mean there was no tier-based reward system at all. It did exist (even if it was way less rewarding).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.

    There were, and there were. Just not as obvious as now. Or maybe you don't remember why people were doing one fractal per each reward tier (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-49, 50) daily?

    Yes, there was reward tiers, but no daily chests.

    There were daily chests. Not the current UI bouncy ones, but there were the chests at the end of the jade maw fractal, and they gave rewards once per day per reward tier.

    There was no:

    • fractal chests
    • ascended weapons
    • ascended armor
    • ascended trinkets
    • fractal keys
    • agony resistance
    • etc.

    Yes, there was daily reward chests. They were very similar to the ones we have now at the end of each fractal. The only difference being that instead of rings from the end fractal chest, we now get rings and a lot more loot from the daily chests. In essence, the old daily rewards were more like the current end fractal rewards (also value wise) than with the daily achievement chests.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Even ascended armor and weapons were added way later. The only thing which was of value was ascended rings and their infused versions. As such the tier reward system as we know it now with advancing chest rewards was not in place.

    Yes, the current one wasn't in place yet. This doesn't mean there was no tier-based reward system at all. It did exist (even if it was way less rewarding).

    A lot of the current rewards were not in place. Mostly a ton of the gold reward too. The only thing higher in the old system was the karma reward.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    What about the other? The rest of non-elite players? Is this an invitation from ANet to search for another game?

    There are 3 Tiers below Tier 4, they even have less of the dreaded Instabilities.
    At some point, you have to ask yourself if you like Fractals, their concept and the challenge they provide in the first place, or if you just want T4 loot, without willing to put in "T4 effort".

    I like fractals,
    I like the loot,
    I like the challenge,
    Birds aren't challenge.
    You funboys keep defending low quality content are digging the grave for this game.
    There is a fine line between challenged and annoyed.

    Look, I'm all for removing Slippery Slope and making Birds only trigger when in combat, I just don't appreciate when people's first reaction to encountering difficulty is crying for nerfs, and how things are unplayable, when that's clearly not the case.

    Even story missions, which completely lose their gravitas because they are so easy, that they straight up don't have a fail state, with in lore threatening foes being beat while the player is afk, are cried about being "impossible" in these forums, while it completely ruins the experience and feeling of accomplishment for anyone who at least read their skills and Traits and put together a half way working build.

    There is also a fine line between accessible and boring.

    If people struggle so much with Birds, they are probably not playing CM's and co, and are not worried about Meta foods. So why not eat a 40% increased endurance regen food ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Orrian_Truffle_and_Meat_Stew ), or try to work Vigor into their build if available?
    It's not like the game doesn't provide the tools and then some to overcome the challenges it provides.

    If something is annoying, anti fun or badly designed (like imo Slippery Slope), then that's something that can be discussed, but hyperbole about things being unplayable and calling for the removal of everything new that hasn't been adapted to yet will most likely just bounce in an echo chamber of qq and achieve nothing.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2019

    There's what Asum.4960 said, but imo it's some of the instabilities require lots of fine tuning itself or for certain specific fractals.

    Birds - The damage is manageable and only punishing if the player(s) fail to notice and dodge to remove it. The problem is the players can be "reinfected" by the instability due to the duration and the juvenile birds keeping players in combat, at times preventing the use of mistlocks :frown: . Giving the instability better visual signs indicators eg. Yellow border like raids or claw marking helps.

    We Bleed Fire - This instability is a mess. The damage source from bosses and certain champs is too punishing for class with low health pool. Hits harder than the the boss itself, usually :lol:. Its triggered by attacks regardless of the target is invul or blocking (bummer). Duo encounters eg. Molten Bosses, Mai Tirin + Horrik have 2 source triggering giant fireballs in a single fight (that's 6k + 6k).

    Outflanked - 300% is overtuned. Firstly, the angle of "flanking" is questionable especially while "strafing"/ moving. Complimented by instabilities like W.B.F , minnions, vindicator's charging etc from bad angles. The perk taking 75% damage from head on attacks is not that helpful, since players will have no problem most of the time while big/notable attacks should be dodged or prevented regardless. Would be better if it's players deal more damage flanking the enemies in return but not sure how it works for condi users, since such change will tip heavily to power builds.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Outflanked - 300% is overtuned. Firstly, the angle of "flanking" is questionable especially while "strafing"/ moving. Complimented by instabilities like W.B.F , minnions, vindicator's charging etc from bad angles. The perk taking 75% damage from head on attacks is not that helpful, since players will have no problem most of the time while big/notable attacks should be dodged or prevented regardless. Would be better if it's players deal more damage flanking the enemies in return but not sure how it works for condi users, since such change will tip heavily to power builds.

    The trigger isn't the direction from which the damage comes from (which wouldn't be so obvious in the case of condi or aoe). The trigger is whether there is an enemy at your "back" or not. So, even if all the mobs dealing damage are in front of you, but some mechanic spawns a single mob at your side/back (...birds?), it instantly triggers the outflanked effect.

    So, basically, if it applied to players equally, all you've had to do is to have one player stand on the other side of the boss, and all players would instantly start doing 300% damage to that boss.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    Outflanked - 300% is overtuned. Firstly, the angle of "flanking" is questionable especially while "strafing"/ moving. Complimented by instabilities like W.B.F , minnions, vindicator's charging etc from bad angles. The perk taking 75% damage from head on attacks is not that helpful, since players will have no problem most of the time while big/notable attacks should be dodged or prevented regardless. Would be better if it's players deal more damage flanking the enemies in return but not sure how it works for condi users, since such change will tip heavily to power builds.

    The trigger isn't the direction from which the damage comes from (which wouldn't be so obvious in the case of condi or aoe). The trigger is whether there is an enemy at your "back" or not. So, even if all the mobs dealing damage are in front of you, but some mechanic spawns a single mob at your side/back (...birds?), it instantly triggers the outflanked effect.

    So, basically, if it applied to players equally, all you've had to do is to have one player stand on the other side of the boss, and all players would instantly start doing 300% damage to that boss.

    Interesting, did not know this worked this way.

    Would be interesting to maybe adjust to as follows:

    • reduce damage reduction to 90% (instead of 75%)
    • reduce damage bonus to 150% (instead of 300%)
    • increase range to 450 or 600 (honestly, mostly because 300 range would allow players to benefit from this while most bosses would not. Even like this, CM100 bosses would be severely disadvantaged)
    • make players and enemies be affected by the instability

    This would seem like it strikes a reasonable balance between toning down the instability and making it more interesting. Maybe even too powerful against bosses.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2019

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    We Bleed Fire - This instability is a mess. The damage source from bosses and certain champs is too punishing for class with low health pool. Hits harder than the the boss itself, usually :lol:. Its triggered by attacks regardless of the target is invul or blocking (bummer). Duo encounters eg. Molten Bosses, Mai Tirin + Horrik have 2 source triggering giant fireballs in a single fight (that's 6k + 6k).

    I personally really enjoy We Bleed Fire and think it's really well designed, and it would be unfortunate to see it become another non mechanic, allowing you to mostly ignore it after nerfs to it, making it yet another mildly annoying, but not worth playing around it instability.

    It has a pretty well designed animation for when exactly it's about to happen, with plenty warning time, that is hard to miss.
    I like that you can dodge it, block it, or destroy/reflect it.

    It's threatening, but with a clear visual indicator and meaningful as well as plentiful counters. That's really good design imo.

    It may actually be my favourite Instability of new and old, except for Frailty maybe, for obvious reasons. Gotta go fast.
    Removing it's ability to trigger of invulnerable foes etc, seems pretty reasonable though.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I personally really enjoy We Bleed Fire and think it's really well designed, and it would be unfortunate to see it become another non mechanic, allowing you to mostly ignore it after nerfs to it, making it yet another mildly annoying, but not worth playing around it instability.

    It has a pretty well designed animation for when exactly it's about to happen, with plenty warning time, that is hard to miss.
    I like that you can dodge it, block it, or destroy/reflect it.

    It's threatening, but with a clear visual indicator and meaningful as well as plentiful counters. That's really good design imo.

    On single enemy in a fight that doesn't require you to use all your dodges already even without that instability. Add more enemies (and spossibly some other instabilities) to it though, and/or put it in some already difficult encounters, and it gets out of hand very fast.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I personally really enjoy We Bleed Fire and think it's really well designed, and it would be unfortunate to see it become another non mechanic, allowing you to mostly ignore it after nerfs to it, making it yet another mildly annoying, but not worth playing around it instability.

    It has a pretty well designed animation for when exactly it's about to happen, with plenty warning time, that is hard to miss.
    I like that you can dodge it, block it, or destroy/reflect it.

    It's threatening, but with a clear visual indicator and meaningful as well as plentiful counters. That's really good design imo.

    On single enemy in a fight that doesn't require you to use all your dodges already even without that instability. Add more enemies (and spossibly some other instabilities) to it though, and/or put it in some already difficult encounters, and it gets out of hand very fast.

    Anet did have the foresight to make the instability drastically weaker when triggering off adds, but yea, that's really where projectile defense comes into play, or it can get messy. But that is what I enjoy about it, those "worst case scenarios" where it actually has to be countered properly, making it an actual mechanic, rather than a minor nuisance that's just there, like most other Instabilities.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I personally really enjoy We Bleed Fire and think it's really well designed, and it would be unfortunate to see it become another non mechanic, allowing you to mostly ignore it after nerfs to it, making it yet another mildly annoying, but not worth playing around it instability.

    It has a pretty well designed animation for when exactly it's about to happen, with plenty warning time, that is hard to miss.
    I like that you can dodge it, block it, or destroy/reflect it.

    It's threatening, but with a clear visual indicator and meaningful as well as plentiful counters. That's really good design imo.

    On single enemy in a fight that doesn't require you to use all your dodges already even without that instability. Add more enemies (and spossibly some other instabilities) to it though, and/or put it in some already difficult encounters, and it gets out of hand very fast.

    Honestly the only change I would like to see is to have the reflected bolts deal damage to the enemy in place of condi being reduced.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    Those who keep saying that new instab make fractal "unplayable" are the one who doesn't like change ( adapt build to deal with these mechanics).

  • Gambino.2109Gambino.2109 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    Those who keep saying that new instab make fractal "unplayable" are the one who doesn't like change ( adapt build to deal with these mechanics).

    Fractals are not fun cause of those... pfffft

    Today's Siren's reef was an example of a disaster..

    outflanked... + Motion sickness Social + we bleed fire

    = Tons of adds steadily keeping burns on you while your team mates push you into stuff while trying to avoid the stage's mechanics

    It's simply ludicrous to have to work twice as hard for the same value rewards.

  • birds .. birds .. ok, I understand rule: "no way back", but this rule also like rule "go forward"
    ok, may be is should be not removed, but for example 'birds' should only debaff blind without any damage, and get damage only for boss if dodge done near him..

  • How about changing them instead of removing them.

    Ex: Birds - Anyone (enemies included) when struck (20% chance) will have 5 birds summoned around them (same as the current ravens in terms of HP/Toughness). These birds inflict blindness with every hit to their target. The birds are hostile to everyone and will attack the nearest target.

    Ex: Slippery Slope - Players and terrestrial enemies have a 10% chance to get knocked down for 1 second when struck by a critical hit. When knocked down, everyone (enemies included) will slide forward.

    Those are the two really egregious ones from what I've noticed. I think those changes would probably be fair.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Aplethoraof.2643 said:
    How about changing them instead of removing them.

    Ex: Birds - Anyone (enemies included) when struck (20% chance) will have 5 birds summoned around them (same as the current ravens in terms of HP/Toughness). These birds inflict blindness with every hit to their target. The birds are hostile to everyone and will attack the nearest target.

    Ex: Slippery Slope - Players and terrestrial enemies have a 10% chance to get knocked down for 1 second when struck by a critical hit. When knocked down, everyone (enemies included) will slide forward.

    Those are the two really egregious ones from what I've noticed. I think those changes would probably be fair.

    When you have 5 players, at least 2-3 of which are running 100% Crit Chance, and land 1-20 hits a second each, you would basically perma disable trash and make them slide all over the place, while instantly breaking all breakbars on bosses.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2019

    There is nothing wrong with new instabs, its just people not knowing mechanics and now they need to place more focus on the instabs itself than the core fractal ones. I did all the fractals in T4 some days ago with a drunk pug team just for fun(all the ones from 75 to 100 not doing the same twice) we had some bad wipes but we could do them while laughing so i just dont understand why people complain this much about them, i mean yes, slippery can be annoying at some places like 100 but if the DPS is good and the druid and chrono is on point then you phase/kill bosses in no time, otherwise just leave the group like i do usually. Sliding on the small platforms tho after the phases of the first boss can be funny

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    There is nothing wrong with new instabs, its just people not knowing mechanics and now they need to place more focus on the instabs itself than the core fractal ones. I did all the fractals in T4 some days ago with a drunk pug team just for fun(all the ones from 75 to 100 not doing the same twice) we had some bad wipes but we could do them while laughing so i just dont understand why people complain this much about them, i mean yes, slippery can be annoying at some places like 100 but if the DPS is good and the druid and chrono is on point then you phase/kill bosses in no time, otherwise just leave the group like i do usually. Sliding on the small platforms tho after the phases of the first boss can be funny

    Maybe cus I don't drink and find birds annoying rather then fun?

    Mr. Z, open this gate. Mr. Z... Mr. Z, tear down this wall!

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2019

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    There is nothing wrong with new instabs, its just people not knowing mechanics and now they need to place more focus on the instabs itself than the core fractal ones. I did all the fractals in T4 some days ago with a drunk pug team just for fun(all the ones from 75 to 100 not doing the same twice) we had some bad wipes but we could do them while laughing so i just dont understand why people complain this much about them, i mean yes, slippery can be annoying at some places like 100 but if the DPS is good and the druid and chrono is on point then you phase/kill bosses in no time, otherwise just leave the group like i do usually. Sliding on the small platforms tho after the phases of the first boss can be funny

    Maybe cus I don't drink and find birds annoying rather then fun?

    Its not about finding them fun only when you are drinking but like honestly, in fractals you dont even need to dodge for any other purpose than birds and some other hard hitting mechanics, and as i said if your druid and chrono is on point you only need to dodge even for birds, its just that people are running without heal or chrono or any other boon support/heal spec. Thats not a bad thing tho, its just that fractals are end game content(kind of) so you should have a group who can manage that. There were no fractals since the update what i coudnt one shot even with LFG group(only when at the first day slippery was in underground fractal). I do not argue that its annoying but its really not that big of a deal, if its making you so much struggle then kick druid or even chrono or well, if you try to kill a boss for 5 mins then DPS. It all comes down that people think about fractals as "normal" basic things, because they are not, they are END GAME content, so if your group cant handle it, its something bad in the group and not in the instability

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2019

    @Nepster.4275 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    There is nothing wrong with new instabs, its just people not knowing mechanics and now they need to place more focus on the instabs itself than the core fractal ones. I did all the fractals in T4 some days ago with a drunk pug team just for fun(all the ones from 75 to 100 not doing the same twice) we had some bad wipes but we could do them while laughing so i just dont understand why people complain this much about them, i mean yes, slippery can be annoying at some places like 100 but if the DPS is good and the druid and chrono is on point then you phase/kill bosses in no time, otherwise just leave the group like i do usually. Sliding on the small platforms tho after the phases of the first boss can be funny

    Maybe cus I don't drink and find birds annoying rather then fun?

    Its not about finding them fun only when you are drinking but like honestly, in fractals you dont even need to dodge for any other purpose than birds and some other hard hitting mechanics, and as i said if your druid and chrono is on point you only need to dodge even for birds, its just that people are running without heal or chrono or any other boon support/heal spec. Thats not a bad thing tho, its just that fractals are end game content(kind of) so you should have a group who can manage that. There were no fractals since the update what i coudnt one shot even with LFG group(only when at the first day slippery was in underground fractal). I do not argue that its annoying but its really not that big of a deal, if its making you so much struggle then kick druid or even chrono or well, if you try to kill a boss for 5 mins then DPS. It all comes down that people think about fractals as "normal" basic things, because they are not, they are END GAME content, so if your group cant handle it, its something bad in the group and not in the instability

    Ah now I don't need to dodge in fractals, cool.
    And yes next time Ill kick druid and crono cus they simply useless as the can't cleanse bird+afcited, birds+fire, and no way druid and crono can outheal birds+outflanked.
    Wait who on earth runs druid in fractals?

    Mr. Z, open this gate. Mr. Z... Mr. Z, tear down this wall!

  • Pirindolo.9427Pirindolo.9427 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2019

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    in fractals you dont even need to dodge for any other purpose than birds and some other hard hitting mechanics

    If you and your team can do the following T4 (without birds)...

    • Mai Trin
    • Twilight Oasis
    • Deepstone
    • Siren's Reef
    • Molten Boss
    • Underground Facility with elementals

    ...without a single dodge, I assume that you and your team are not good representatives of the average fractal player.

    Maybe there are too many "hard hitting mechanics" in too many fractals, even without birds.

<1
©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.