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Roaming specs really need a nerf?


whoknocks.4935

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We all know condi mirages holosmiths, soulbeasts and deadeyes are the top 4 overtuned roaming specs especially for solo.

But nerfing those you will promote even more ganks and encourage people to go 2vs1 3vs1 4vs1 5vs1 or more because you cannot survive solo anymore.

And to be honest I never find around a low rank "newbie" boonbeast who just jumped into the gamemode and rekt people.I find camping longbow soulbeast a way more popular version for roaming and played by everyone, low ranks up to high ranks.

On the opposite case it's full of condi mirages who are abusing the spec even tho they are playing it for the first time.

This being said WvW is not balanced around roaming, and to be honest I find more frustating being ganked all day and outnumbered more than fighting a lonely overtuned spec.

They should leave pvp balance completely separated from wvw.

What do you guys think?

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Holosmiths not so much these days... good but no OP. The problem with Mirage and Deadeye is the damage output to survival capacity is extremely high. Counters are basically bring a friend or 3. Soulbeasts have too much easily accessible protection and the overlap with Dolyak Stance is stupid good.

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@Straegen.2938 said:Holosmiths not so much these days... good but no OP. The problem with Mirage and Deadeye is the damage output to survival capacity is extremely high. Counters are basically bring a friend or 3. Soulbeasts have too much easily accessible protection and the overlap with Dolyak Stance is stupid good.

Yeah but usually i never find around noob boonbeasts, they are all pretty high rank and very skilled players.The 90% of soulbeast i find while roaming are longbow sic'em soulbeasts which do up to 40-50k rapid fires.

Instead condi mirage seems abused by everyone and you can see when someone is noob at it and spam every single skill onto you and still having a chance to win, holosmith are some in the middle but still overtuned.

But killing those specs which are op in pvp would kill solo roaming and ganking is encouraged in my opinion.

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I frankly dont see the point. Ganking will allways be a thing but 1vX shouldnt be a matter of broken specs but skillgap between the players. And if those SBs you roam with can do it only on that spec, well maybe they arent that good. In my opinion Anet should transfere at least all the PvPvP changes to skills and traits. From that point we have a solid ground to debate gear and food.

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Ganking and outnumbered fights have always been a thing. Balancing decisions won't change that.

What you're actually complaining about is the general powercreep this game has been suffering from over the years. Time-to-kill (TTK) is super low these days, which is fine for a shooter, but makes for a miserable experience in MMORPG's. Defending yourself against overwhelming odds has never been more difficult than it is today. There's so much damage flying around and this really needs to be addressed. Compare roaming in 2013 and 2019, the difference is night and day, which is why many people will tell you that roaming is dead.

The builds you mentioned have traits and skills which are overperforming and need to be looked at. There are also other builds which basically play themselves but that is a debate for another time.

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Meh I see plenty of people survive solo on plenty different classes. Guess legendary armor and probably put a lot of thought into their playstyle.Ascended fine with me, people say exotic is OK too most times.

Not sure why you guys only do "overwhelming" odds but there was always a limit to that to some degree. Don't make a mistake and have a good plan. Voice comms and guilded ect.

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I am surprised you didn't include Spellbreaker. Balancing in WvW is always tricky because of the zerg/small scale scene. You can make 1 class useless for zerging but overpowered for roaming and it just creates so many issues regarding balance. Minstrel FB doesn't solo roam, but is a must in zergs. Deadeye doesn't offer much for a zerg but is very strong for roaming.

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@Edward H Angle.1407 said:I think its most a player skill issue. You have to use the right skills at the right time. I can easily 1v1 any of those roaming builds even on my toons with zerg builds, like even zerker herald with staff and hammer.

You won against soulbeasts, holos, condi mirages and DE's using a hammer rev? Those must be the worst roamers. I've talked to people running hammer when roaming (from nobody to commanders and people that have a youtube) and I've never heard anyone say hammer rev is better than any of the above.

That being said holo is alright. Could use a little tweak but definitely not too OP - at least when compared to the other 3. I also don't see that many holos around - most common are probably longbow soulbeasts, DE's, and condi mirage to a lesser degree.

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@idolin.2831 said:

@Edward H Angle.1407 said:I think its most a player skill issue. You have to use the right skills at the right time. I can easily 1v1 any of those roaming builds even on my toons with zerg builds, like even zerker herald with staff and hammer.

You won against soulbeasts, holos, condi mirages and DE's using a hammer rev? Those must be the worst roamers. I've talked to people running hammer when roaming (from nobody to commanders and people that have a youtube) and I've never heard anyone say hammer rev is better than any of the above.

That being said holo is alright. Could use a little tweak but definitely not too OP - at least when compared to the other 3. I also don't see that many holos around - most common are probably longbow soulbeasts, DE's, and condi mirage to a lesser degree.

Lol hammer rev is bad for roaming.

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@X T D.6458 said:

@Edward H Angle.1407 said:I think its most a player skill issue. You have to use the right skills at the right time. I can easily 1v1 any of those roaming builds even on my toons with zerg builds, like even zerker herald with staff and hammer.

You won against soulbeasts, holos, condi mirages and DE's using a hammer rev? Those must be the worst roamers. I've talked to people running hammer when roaming (from nobody to commanders and people that have a youtube) and I've never heard anyone say hammer rev is better than any of the above.

That being said holo is alright. Could use a little tweak but definitely not too OP - at least when compared to the other 3. I also don't see that many holos around - most common are probably longbow soulbeasts, DE's, and condi mirage to a lesser degree.

Lol hammer rev is bad for roaming.

... Isn't that what I meant?

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@idolin.2831 said:

@Edward H Angle.1407 said:I think its most a player skill issue. You have to use the right skills at the right time. I can easily 1v1 any of those roaming builds even on my toons with zerg builds, like even zerker herald with staff and hammer.

You won against soulbeasts, holos, condi mirages and DE's using a hammer rev? Those must be the worst roamers. I've talked to people running hammer when roaming (from nobody to commanders and people that have a youtube) and I've never heard anyone say hammer rev is better than any of the above.

That being said holo is alright. Could use a little tweak but definitely not too OP - at least when compared to the other 3. I also don't see that many holos around - most common are probably longbow soulbeasts, DE's, and condi mirage to a lesser degree.

Lol hammer rev is bad for roaming.

... Isn't that what I meant?

Just agreeing with you

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@idolin.2831 said:

@"Edward H Angle.1407" said:I think its most a player skill issue. You have to use the right skills at the right time. I can easily 1v1 any of those roaming builds even on my toons with zerg builds, like even zerker herald with staff and hammer.

You won against soulbeasts, holos, condi mirages and DE's using a hammer rev? Those must be the worst roamers. I've talked to people running hammer when roaming (from nobody to commanders and people that have a youtube) and I've never heard anyone say hammer rev is better than any of the above.

That being said holo is alright. Could use a little tweak but definitely not too OP - at least when compared to the other 3. I also don't see that many holos around - most common are probably longbow soulbeasts, DE's, and condi mirage to a lesser degree.

Its becomes immediately obvious to me that you are an unskilled or relatively new WvW player/roamer. All 9 classes are perfectly well balanced as it right now, with the correct execution of skills, any of them can beat a "roaming build". I invite you to 1v1 me anytime for a demonstration.

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@Edward H Angle.1407 said:

@Edward H Angle.1407 said:I think its most a player skill issue. You have to use the right skills at the right time. I can easily 1v1 any of those roaming builds even on my toons with zerg builds, like even zerker herald with staff and hammer.

You won against soulbeasts, holos, condi mirages and DE's using a hammer rev? Those must be the worst roamers. I've talked to people running hammer when roaming (from nobody to commanders and people that have a youtube) and I've never heard anyone say hammer rev is better than any of the above.

That being said holo is alright. Could use a little tweak but definitely not too OP - at least when compared to the other 3. I also don't see that many holos around - most common are probably longbow soulbeasts, DE's, and condi mirage to a lesser degree.

Its becomes immediately obvious to me that you are an unskilled or relatively new WvW player/roamer. All 9 classes are perfectly well balanced as it right now, with the correct execution of skills, any of them can beat a "roaming build". I invite you to 1v1 me anytime for a demonstration.

Okay I'll say I was exaggerating a bit when I said those were the worst roamers, but on average at least holo and condi mirage are better than hammer rev in a 1v1. There is a reason why in PvP they are the duelist while hammer rev is not even a choice. Of course someone who is worse at holo or condi mirage can be beaten by even a hammer rev (@Justine.6351 can probably back me up here), but assuming average skill level that's not gonna happen.

Also sure I'd love to learn more about hammer rev. Just PM me a PvP arena server and I'll try to make it!

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@idolin.2831 said:

@Edward H Angle.1407 said:I think its most a player skill issue. You have to use the right skills at the right time. I can easily 1v1 any of those roaming builds even on my toons with zerg builds, like even zerker herald with staff and hammer.

You won against soulbeasts, holos, condi mirages and DE's using a hammer rev? Those must be the worst roamers. I've talked to people running hammer when roaming (from nobody to commanders and people that have a youtube) and I've never heard anyone say hammer rev is better than any of the above.

That being said holo is alright. Could use a little tweak but definitely not too OP - at least when compared to the other 3. I also don't see that many holos around - most common are probably longbow soulbeasts, DE's, and condi mirage to a lesser degree.

Its becomes immediately obvious to me that you are an unskilled or relatively new WvW player/roamer. All 9 classes are perfectly well balanced as it right now, with the correct execution of skills, any of them can beat a "roaming build". I invite you to 1v1 me anytime for a demonstration.

Okay I'll say I was exaggerating a bit when I said those were the worst roamers, but on average at least holo and condi mirage are better than hammer rev in a 1v1. There is a reason why in PvP they are the duelist while hammer rev is not even a choice. Of course someone who is worse at holo or condi mirage can be beaten by even a hammer rev (@"Justine.6351" can probably back me up here), but assuming average skill level that's not gonna happen.

Also sure I'd love to learn more about hammer rev. Just PM me a PvP arena server and I'll try to make it!

I'm not sure you two are debating opposite sides but I will say this about hammer rev/ holosmith/condi mirage,Hammer rev is good spike damage from 0-1200 range with some decent support and utility.Holosmith is good damage from 0-600 range with great support and utility.Condi Mirage is good for 0-600 range single target pressure damage with decent utility.

Against an experienced holosmith I feel comfortable. Against an experienced condi mirage its uncomfortable.Neither is a hopeless fight and I will engage any class/build in a 1v1 even if that means cheesing them underwater with trident + impossible odds.

In WvW roaming its as much about fighting the player than it is the build. The build may "carry" the player above their skill level but you are still fighting against their experience with your own.

An example of a condi mirage as experienced as I or better with obviously a better build. I cannot win this fight so I change the game to something I think will even the odds, 20:40 min/sec,

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@"Justine.6351" said:

An example of a condi mirage as experienced as I or better with obviously a better build. I cannot win this fight so I change the game to something I think will even the odds, 20:40 min/sec,

Wow, as obvious as it might seem I never thought about trying to take it to the water (silly me). My shark pet can get some love!

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@GaijinGuy.8476 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:

An example of a condi mirage as experienced as I or better with obviously a better build. I cannot win this fight so I change the game to something I think will even the odds, 20:40 min/sec,

Wow, as obvious as it might seem I never thought about trying to take it to the water (silly me). My shark pet can get some love!

Condi Mirage would technically still be better 1v1 underwater but what you gamble on is that most players cannot fight very well underwater. Get comfortable underwater with your skill bar and skill chains and you can turn fights around in a heartbeat.

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@Justine.6351 said:

An example of a condi mirage as experienced as I or better with obviously a better build. I cannot win this fight so I change the game to something I think will even the odds, 20:40 min/sec,

Wow, as obvious as it might seem I never thought about trying to take it to the water (silly me). My shark pet can get some love!

Condi Mirage would technically still be better 1v1 underwater but what you gamble on is that most players cannot fight very well underwater. Get comfortable underwater with your skill bar and skill chains and you can turn fights around in a heartbeat.

Gonna start practicing!

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That being said holo is alright. Could use a little tweak but definitely not too OP - at least when compared to the other 3. I also don't see that many holos around - most common are probably longbow soulbeasts, DE's, and condi mirage to a lesser degree.

Holo could use a few tweeks? It's one of the few classes who can upkeep that many Boons with An amazing dps, and like thief they can (theoreticly) leaves the field whenever they want. Yes IT is here like revenant in my opinion: it's not great if you new to the classic, but it pays off big time to learn IT (in a roaming point of view)

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@Justine.6351 said:

An example of a condi mirage as experienced as I or better with obviously a better build. I cannot win this fight so I change the game to something I think will even the odds, 20:40 min/sec,

Wow, as obvious as it might seem I never thought about trying to take it to the water (silly me). My shark pet can get some love!

Condi Mirage would technically still be better 1v1 underwater but what you gamble on is that most players cannot fight very well underwater. Get comfortable underwater with your skill bar and skill chains and you can turn fights around in a heartbeat.

I was hoping we'd get an underwater map instead :o it's a nice idea anyway.

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@whoknocks.4935 said:

But nerfing those you will promote even more ganks and encourage people to go 2vs1 3vs1 4vs1 5vs1 or more because you cannot survive solo anymore.

I find more frustating being ganked all day and outnumbered more than fighting a lonely overtuned spec.These are weird conclusions and straw man arguments. Outnumbering has nothing to do with overpowered specs.

To add someting to the topic:The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that the medium armor specs do work as intended. Maybe ANet thinks that's the place where they have to shine as the light and heavy armor classes are far superior in zergs. And forcing players who want to play different mechanics (zerging, roaming) into different armor types adds also more long time goals (different stats on different armor types) which keeps people in the game - in theory.

But it won't work - frustration will have a bigger impact than being forced to play multiple classes. The player population will decrease (and it already does).

I mean nobody is so incompetent to ignore such obvious imbalances over several balance patches by accident. Soulbeast wasn't touched at all the last patch and ANet also does not intend to remove perma stealth on deadeye.

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@whoknocks.4935 said:They should leave pvp balance completely separated from wvw.

What do you guys think?

Due to the nature of WvW, that with fights rarely being fair in numbers and using PvE gears and utilities, I don't think it makes any sense to try to balance what is by nature imbalanced.

Roamers engaging 1 against 1 is pretty much the only place where one can care about balance, and that's already happening in PvP.

If it were up to me, I would do all balance in PvP, and remove as many of the skill splits as possible. For PvE, the only considerations I would have is to tone up/down classes based on DPS (since, sadly, for most PvE content it boils down to a DPS race, yet that's pretty much a suicide approach in PvP). Now, adjusting PvE damage without affecting PvP is where the difficulty in balancing comes from.

But in brief, at least I do agree with the actual question the op posed (though I don't understand the rest of the post XD).

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