Lets be real here the new mount will not promote WvW — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Lets be real here the new mount will not promote WvW

InvaGir.9158InvaGir.9158 Member ✭✭✭

This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
Here is why...
if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

Comments

  • StrawHat.2639StrawHat.2639 Member ✭✭✭

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    There is no "instead" as the Alliance change is most likely done by a different team and is a much bigger change that likely requires massive rewrites in their system. I am sure if it took just as long to deliver Alliances as it did to code a new WvW pet, we would have seen Alliances a long time ago.

    Also getting more players to experience WvW is important for its long term health. While most won't stay long term, some probably will. Exposing new players to WvW is the only way WvW can survive long term. Even players that love WvW eventually move on leaving an ever shrinking population. WvW needs incentives to help refresh its active population.

    The WvW mount should just be a monthly weekend/week event then I think everyone would be happy...get new blood maybe stick ard….

    Sanji
    Lost last glimmer of enthusiasm for WvW

    Anet dragon has finally defeated the
    **WvW WarBorn **
    He's over 7000!
    Havok lover with a sprinkle of Zerging

  • Might bring some people back, like myself. i have been away for about 3 years now. but this new WvW thing has my interest, i'll be get back into it just to check it out. If its good i'll stick around for abit, if it's not i'll move on again, but it's still making me log back in. Maybe thats what they are going for?

  • InvaGir.9158InvaGir.9158 Member ✭✭✭

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    There is no "instead" as the Alliance change is most likely done by a different team and is a much bigger change that likely requires massive rewrites in their system. I am sure if it took just as long to deliver Alliances as it did to code a new WvW pet, we would have seen Alliances a long time ago.

    Also getting more players to experience WvW is important for its long term health. While most won't stay long term, some probably will. Exposing new players to WvW is the only way WvW can survive long term. Even players that love WvW eventually move on leaving an ever shrinking population. WvW needs incentives to help refresh its active population.

    I'm not against it which is why I said we should have gotten Alliance instead

    When this update will come out people will join blindly without the help of their guild mates due to server limitations so they will run solo or with random groups of roamers/zerks and I believe none will help them to the personal level to get better in this mode.

    In better words like in the past plenty will join, some will stay and the majority will quit after a while.

    Besides that the mount will not do good like some think and lots of WvWers has made good points in this board and in the general board while people asked what is the problem
    Its also not so friendly for non-pof owners as well....

  • Iris Ng.9845Iris Ng.9845 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm sure as hell excited to play WvW this weekend. Was the mount the factor? No! But the number of interests in the mount that would cause a population spike in all WvW maps. There are gonna be fights after fights after fights with many, many bags to be claimed.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @InvaGir.9158 said:

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    There is no "instead" as the Alliance change is most likely done by a different team and is a much bigger change that likely requires massive rewrites in their system. I am sure if it took just as long to deliver Alliances as it did to code a new WvW pet, we would have seen Alliances a long time ago.

    Also getting more players to experience WvW is important for its long term health. While most won't stay long term, some probably will. Exposing new players to WvW is the only way WvW can survive long term. Even players that love WvW eventually move on leaving an ever shrinking population. WvW needs incentives to help refresh its active population.

    I'm not against it which is why I said we should have gotten Alliance instead

    Different teams, the vast majority of the work needed for the mount would be from the art and animation people, with only a little bit by the coding people (since pve mounts exists)

    When this update will come out people will join blindly without the help of their guild mates due to server limitations so they will run solo or with random groups of roamers/zerks and I believe none will help them to the personal level to get better in this mode.

    In better words like in the past plenty will join, some will stay and the majority will quit after a while.

    That's pretty much what wvw can hope for, some staying

    Besides that the mount will not do good like some think and lots of WvWers has made good points in this board and in the general board while people asked what is the problem

    It won't be amazing or anything, it will be a small positive change because more time will be spent fighting and less running, anyone acting like it's a big positive or negative is just being overdramatic

    Its also not so friendly for non-pof owners as well....

    Gw2 is not f2p, it's a b2p game with an f2p demo, if you don't own the expansions you haven't really bought the game, this is pretty much the norm for games with expansions

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, "instead" doesn't make sense. Artists and animators stay well away from database code.

    For a reason.

  • InvaGir.9158InvaGir.9158 Member ✭✭✭

    There should be priorities to what is more important to the game
    Doesn't matter which team is responsible for what a resource is still a resource
    And time wasted on updates like this are not helping improve the mode

    I however hope some are right I really don't roaming to die as its the only thing I can do(as I stated in other posts zerks give me serious fps drops/lag)
    I guess all we can do is wait

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    There should be priorities to what is more important to the game
    Doesn't matter which team is responsible for what a resource is still a resource
    And time wasted on updates like this are not helping improve the mode

    Unless you want them to constantly fire and hire new people then they have the people they have.

    If this allows WvW to bring in more money then perhaps it will become a higher prio for other teams (i doubt it but ye...)

    I however hope some are right I really don't roaming to die as its the only thing I can do(as I stated in other posts zerks give me serious fps drops/lag)
    I guess all we can do is wait

    This won't kill roaming, the only worrisome bit is the mount skill but hopefully that can't hit players

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    There should be priorities to what is more important to the game
    Doesn't matter which team is responsible for what a resource is still a resource
    And time wasted on updates like this are not helping improve the mode

    ppl are acting like anet had to shelve alliance's development for 2 years to bring us a wvw mount

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    There should be priorities to what is more important to the game
    Doesn't matter which team is responsible for what a resource is still a resource
    And time wasted on updates like this are not helping improve the mode

    ppl are acting like anet had to shelve alliance's development for 2 years to bring us a wvw mount

    Nah, but from initial announcement to release based on current status and status updates it will be 2 years. So..

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
    Here is why...
    if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
    if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
    After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

    If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
    We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

    I have seen specific situations where a guildmate decided to go into wvw because they wanted a specific reward and decided they enjoyed it enough to add it to their play rotation.

    I also have seen friends and guildmates state that some portion of their reason for not getting into wvw after having tried it was the time it can take to get to the action.

    Take those with a grain of salt (as I do) but adding mounts might get some players to give wvw a real shot. The question, for me, is whether adding mounts drives away more people than it draws in on a permanent basis.

  • InvaGir.9158InvaGir.9158 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
    Here is why...
    if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
    if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
    After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

    If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
    We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

    1)I also have seen friends and guildmates state that some portion of their reason for not getting into wvw after having tried it was the time it can take to get to the action.

    2)Take those with a grain of salt (as I do) but adding mounts might get some players to give wvw a real shot. The question, for me, is whether adding mounts drives away more people than it draws in on a permanent basis.

    1)This is the biggest myth in WvW
    If you want action look for it or make enough noise to draw the enemy to you
    There is always and I'm serious ALWAYS something to do as well
    Also running from point A to point B is not that diffucult
    During my runs while I was roaming with my guild mates we would useally take camps and towers all the way to the enemy main camp right above their spawn at their own homeworld
    The trip takes maybe 5 minutes at best from the botton right/left home spawn to the top of the map
    You can't be lazy in a video game just play and stop trying to give yourself excuses(I'm speaking generally not to you specific)

    2)The way I see it if people are correct about the outcomes of adding this mount to WvW most will probably not quit but the activity will drop
    While players will get their mount and leave WvW will probably be dead most of the time.
    I will try to continue roaming and hope it would still be possible but if not I will probably avoid going into WvW again
    Then again like I said on my first post this will not make players stay in this mode
    Why would they?! How is one update of adding a mount to WvW will change their mind about PvP?!
    It would also not make them play better.
    Every player who purchased the game had tons of chances to click the WvW icon and try it but most avoided it.

    The way I see it PvE players avoid PvP because they don't like it. And I don't blame them deathamatch is not for everyone :\

    The hype is coming but it will pass after the first few weeks after that we will see where it goes from there...

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @InvaGir.9158 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
    Here is why...
    if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
    if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
    After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

    If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
    We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

    1)I also have seen friends and guildmates state that some portion of their reason for not getting into wvw after having tried it was the time it can take to get to the action.

    2)Take those with a grain of salt (as I do) but adding mounts might get some players to give wvw a real shot. The question, for me, is whether adding mounts drives away more people than it draws in on a permanent basis.

    1)This is the biggest myth in WvW
    If you want action look for it or make enough noise to draw the enemy to you
    There is always and I'm serious ALWAYS something to do as well
    Also running from point A to point B is not that diffucult
    During my runs while I was roaming with my guild mates we would useally take camps and towers all the way to the enemy main camp right above their spawn at their own homeworld
    The trip takes maybe 5 minutes at best from the botton right/left home spawn to the top of the map
    You can't be lazy in a video game just play and stop trying to give yourself excuses(I'm speaking generally not to you specific)

    2)The way I see it if people are correct about the outcomes of adding this mount to WvW most will probably not quit but the activity will drop
    While players will get their mount and leave WvW will probably be dead most of the time.
    I will try to continue roaming and hope it would still be possible but if not I will probably avoid going into WvW again
    Then again like I said on my first post this will not make players stay in this mode
    Why would they?! How is one update of adding a mount to WvW will change their mind about PvP?!
    It would also not make them play better.
    Every player who purchased the game had tons of chances to click the WvW icon and try it but most avoided it.

    The way I see it PvE players avoid PvP because they don't like it. And I don't blame them deathamatch is not for everyone :\

    The hype is coming but it will pass after the first few weeks after that we will see where it goes from there...

    Not a myth. If the big fight is at the opposite end of the map then it could very well be over before you get there.

  • InvaGir.9158InvaGir.9158 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
    Here is why...
    if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
    if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
    After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

    If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
    We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

    1)I also have seen friends and guildmates state that some portion of their reason for not getting into wvw after having tried it was the time it can take to get to the action.

    2)Take those with a grain of salt (as I do) but adding mounts might get some players to give wvw a real shot. The question, for me, is whether adding mounts drives away more people than it draws in on a permanent basis.

    1)This is the biggest myth in WvW
    If you want action look for it or make enough noise to draw the enemy to you
    There is always and I'm serious ALWAYS something to do as well
    Also running from point A to point B is not that diffucult
    During my runs while I was roaming with my guild mates we would useally take camps and towers all the way to the enemy main camp right above their spawn at their own homeworld
    The trip takes maybe 5 minutes at best from the botton right/left home spawn to the top of the map
    You can't be lazy in a video game just play and stop trying to give yourself excuses(I'm speaking generally not to you specific)

    2)The way I see it if people are correct about the outcomes of adding this mount to WvW most will probably not quit but the activity will drop
    While players will get their mount and leave WvW will probably be dead most of the time.
    I will try to continue roaming and hope it would still be possible but if not I will probably avoid going into WvW again
    Then again like I said on my first post this will not make players stay in this mode
    Why would they?! How is one update of adding a mount to WvW will change their mind about PvP?!
    It would also not make them play better.
    Every player who purchased the game had tons of chances to click the WvW icon and try it but most avoided it.

    The way I see it PvE players avoid PvP because they don't like it. And I don't blame them deathamatch is not for everyone :\

    The hype is coming but it will pass after the first few weeks after that we will see where it goes from there...

    Not a myth. If the big fight is at the opposite end of the map then it could very well be over before you get there.

    There are always fights and WvW is not about targeting one objective at the time(excluding castle in EB)
    Also while the enemy is focused on one location why not take another?!
    You're giving yourself an excuse mate and the mounts will not fix this problem anyways
    People will have a faster response hence will make the fight end way more sooner than you expecting

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    The only way to promote WvW is bringing people in and have them play for a while, and then hope some of them will stick around.

    But they won't stick around if the mode is not fun for them. It's not possible to make every mode equally fun for everyone, but it should be at leas possible to manage outliers. Right now the combat pace is way too fast for competitive gameplay in both WvW and PvP.

    We don't even have something like a deathcam to check what just killed you, and the combat log and death recap are not good enough.

    First things fist, there's people going around doing 1000% damage over the base damage of their skills. Regardless of their combat experience, nobody should go down 1v1 with 3 autoattacks, or any number of skills used within just 3 seconds, for that matter. Even if they are freaking standing still staring vacantly into space. More tan 3 seconds? That's enough time to react. More than 1:1? It's a cooperative game too, bring a safer build or allies.
    But going down in under 3 seconds 1v1? That's just too fast. Players need to get at least a bit of time to react and learn from their mistakes.

  • InvaGir.9158InvaGir.9158 Member ✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The only way to promote WvW is bringing people in and have them play for a while, and then hope some of them will stick around.

    But they won't stick around if the mode is not fun for them. It's not possible to make every mode equally fun for everyone, but it should be at leas possible to manage outliers. Right now the combat pace is way too fast for competitive gameplay in both WvW and PvP.

    We don't even have something like a deathcam to check what just killed you, and the combat log and death recap are not good enough.

    First things fist, there's people going around doing 1000% damage over the base damage of their skills. Regardless of their combat experience, nobody should go down 1v1 with 3 autoattacks, or any number of skills used within just 3 seconds, for that matter. Even if they are freaking standing still staring vacantly into space. More tan 3 seconds? That's enough time to react. More than 1:1? It's a cooperative game too, bring a safer build or allies.
    But going down in under 3 seconds 1v1? That's just too fast. Players need to get at least a bit of time to react and learn from their mistakes.

    The balance is the biggest issue and I can feel for anyone about it
    Its awful, but it is amazing how we survived for that long.

    Still I wouldn't mind a major change about that and I doubt people will disagree with me
    The deathcam however I'm nor sure about that...

  • Of the people I know who became WvWarriors (there for the joy of battle, not as weekend warriors or reward-seeking skritt)...

    • Innate interest: The biggest group were those who already had the urge for this type of gameplay; there's almost nothing ANet can do to make them stop or get more enthusiastic. New maps weren't going to matter; they just changed how this group responded.
    • Tempted by rewards, stayed for the fun: the next largest block are those who came because WvW was required for map completion, for tourney rewards, for GoB, etc. The vast majority I know came and went, but some remained and became bigger fans than the first group.
    • Peer pressure: a much smaller group started because a friend convinced them it would be great. More of the initial group remained, but overall, it's a smaller subset.

    So the OP is right: tons of people are going to get their mount and never return. But the OP is also wrong: some notable subset will show up for the mount and end up staying because it's fun.
    (I have no opinion about whether that's enough people to make the headache worth it for the existing WvWarriors, whether it's enough new blood for the game mode generally. I'm just saying: there will be a lot of people who become newly interested.)

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • StrawHat.2639StrawHat.2639 Member ✭✭✭

    @Iris Ng.9845 said:
    I'm sure as hell excited to play WvW this weekend. Was the mount the factor? No! But the number of interests in the mount that would cause a population spike in all WvW maps. There are gonna be fights after fights after fights with many, many bags to be claimed.

    Only if you can get threw the queues if they leave it 4 tiers ;P

    Looking more forward to tagging up to lead new people then the mount which am a little biased is just clutter to WvW honestly but can't change what is...I believe that if some influx doesn't stay then we will see another pop decline after 2-4 months; reduction to 3 tiers then.

    Sanji
    Lost last glimmer of enthusiasm for WvW

    Anet dragon has finally defeated the
    **WvW WarBorn **
    He's over 7000!
    Havok lover with a sprinkle of Zerging

  • ThunderPanda.1872ThunderPanda.1872 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2019

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    There should be priorities to what is more important to the game
    Doesn't matter which team is responsible for what a resource is still a resource
    And time wasted on updates like this are not helping improve the mode

    I however hope some are right I really don't roaming to die as its the only thing I can do(as I stated in other posts zerks give me serious fps drops/lag)
    I guess all we can do is wait

    Anet is not an indie studio. Not everyone is capable of working with everything (art, program (on multiple layers ui, backend, db and who knows what other services they may have), marketting, sound, localisation, etc etc). They hire specialised people who excels at their individual task and separate their employees into many teams.

    You can't just drag and drop people into different teams as required, many people severely underestimate how long it can take for people to become completely productive after picking up a new source code, or really any other tasks not necessarily related to programming. Likewise, you can't just hire and fire people at whim and that's not considering that they'll have the same problem as the aforementioned option.

    It's not always fair to put all the blame on these 'devs'. Things like alliance updates or balance patches bottleneck as they probably have to jump through many different teams, and every teams have different priorities. Of course I could be wrong about specific examples, but I am almost certain that WvW teams don't always have full control over their development.

    Maybe you could argue that some groups of people in the management positions don't have their priorities set 'to your liking' (they are abviously relatively successful considering gw2 as a whole is one of the most successful product in its market). Maybe you'd like the WvW related teams to expand permanently in size? Well that's something that we will have to talk with our wallets.

    Power > Condition

  • @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    There should be priorities to what is more important to the game
    Doesn't matter which team is responsible for what a resource is still a resource
    And time wasted on updates like this are not helping improve the mode

    ppl are acting like anet had to shelve alliance's development for 2 years to bring us a wvw mount

    Nah, but from initial announcement to release based on current status and status updates it will be 2 years. So..

    2 years. Ur optimist man

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2019

    And BTW, as I started to play, running on foot whole map was annoying, now I just got used to it, and I think more ppl will start play wvw.
    Question is, how many ppl will stop playing wvw.

  • @Straegen.2938 said:
    There is no "instead" as the Alliance change is most likely done by a different team and is a much bigger change that likely requires massive rewrites in their system. I am sure if it took just as long to deliver Alliances as it did to code a new WvW pet, we would have seen Alliances a long time ago.

    Also getting more players to experience WvW is important for its long term health. While most won't stay long term, some probably will. Exposing new players to WvW is the only way WvW can survive long term. Even players that love WvW eventually move on leaving an ever shrinking population. WvW needs incentives to help refresh its active population.

    The real question I suppose is, are we more likely to gain more players to WvW long-term than we are to lose veteran players? Especially with changes that run contrary to the wishes of the playerbase who support a game mode that is already neglected.

    From my experience there isn't much to be had from the PVEr crowd in terms of sustainable support for WvW. WvW is a known quantity that many PVErs post resentment towards in regards to having to play it for some rewards. There is nothing to make me think that this will change, especially since Anet is giving PVErs the mount to use outside of the battlegrounds/borderlands.

    Changes that make the meta increasingly toxic and unpalatable + performance issues will only drive out more WvW veterans- read: the only people who care about the game mode anyway.

  • ill be real here too, we know they want to force mounts into wvw to push sales of pof and gem store

    what that goal means is:
    the mounts will become stupid OP and probably mandatory to enjoy the game mode later down the road

    no thanks anet, kitten that

  • @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    There should be priorities to what is more important to the game
    Doesn't matter which team is responsible for what a resource is still a resource
    And time wasted on updates like this are not helping improve the mode

    ppl are acting like anet had to shelve alliance's development for 2 years to bring us a wvw mount

    Nah, but from initial announcement to release based on current status and status updates it will be 2 years. So..

    2 years. Ur optimist man

    To be honest, at this point I am starting to believe CU will release long before alliances come to WvW.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Together with the event it will bring people into the mode for many weeks to come. That's just how it's going to be. Depending on how difficult it will be to unlock, for completions sake people will come in there.

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • @Irbis.4932 said:
    To be honest, at this point I am starting to believe CU will release long before alliances come to WvW.

    i would bet the alliances are almost done, but they wont be releasing them without any competition
    they will release them probably near CU launch to take some wind off their sails or they leave it for next expansion

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    There should be priorities to what is more important to the game
    Doesn't matter which team is responsible for what a resource is still a resource
    And time wasted on updates like this are not helping improve the mode

    ppl are acting like anet had to shelve alliance's development for 2 years to bring us a wvw mount

    Nah, but from initial announcement to release based on current status and status updates it will be 2 years. So..

    2 years. Ur optimist man

    You are likely right. Which is why I wrote what I did.

    It was based on the ‘update’ tone. But yeah, I am not placing any hope on any timeline.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @derd.6413 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    There should be priorities to what is more important to the game
    Doesn't matter which team is responsible for what a resource is still a resource
    And time wasted on updates like this are not helping improve the mode

    ppl are acting like anet had to shelve alliance's development for 2 years to bring us a wvw mount

    No. And as others have said the mount and alliances probably have little to do with one another. But they(ANet) also have a habit of making grandiose announcements but being careful with their wording about them so that later down the road, after they've led players along the garden path, they're able to say, "Sorry(not sorry) not going to be done as announced or ever. Priorities shifted, hearts lost their flames, ships passed in the night, stars were crossed and we lost Bob, our best ukulele player, to the Great Gout epidemic of twenty eighteen. We know MOST of you will understand this but for the rest of you (you know who you are) if you don't -hey, we didn't ever actually promise anything. Stop living in the past. Look to the future! - pulls out pocket watch on chain and begins swaying in front of player base - There was never a promise of legendaries... There was never a manifesto... There's no longer any third party programme-based cheating in sPvP or WvW... There were never any web pages with selling points for Heart of Thorns which were hastily deleted, edited, and reposted to reflect this new... err... The old... uhh...sigh Look, everbody! Warclaws!"

    If Alliances was such an easy fix it should have been done by now. My uninformed opinion, as many here will rush to tell me, is that it's indeed been a ploy to string players along and to keep those so inclined -for however long this unmodified matching system continues to go on- to continue spending RMT on gems to bandwagon and server hop in order to stack servers to manipulate the system paying via transfers. This, instead of just leaving,(either the game in full or just the mode) as most of the others who cared about the game mode have done. Chances are Alliances might never arrive, and even if it does it's not going to sort out balance.

    If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but there's a track record here and if anything Alliances seems a lot of effort and hope put into what's essentially going to be a better mousetrap that isn't. Only hope I have is for this coming tuesday's patch notes and that's not much hope at all.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    We still have the old problems of balance that will stop those newer players from "enjoying" wvw despite the mount addition though. It's like tricking a kid to eat his vegetables lol.

    well said +!

  • @InvaGir.9158 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
    Here is why...
    if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
    if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
    After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

    If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
    We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

    1)I also have seen friends and guildmates state that some portion of their reason for not getting into wvw after having tried it was the time it can take to get to the action.

    2)Take those with a grain of salt (as I do) but adding mounts might get some players to give wvw a real shot. The question, for me, is whether adding mounts drives away more people than it draws in on a permanent basis.

    1)This is the biggest myth in WvW
    If you want action look for it or make enough noise to draw the enemy to you
    There is always and I'm serious ALWAYS something to do as well
    Also running from point A to point B is not that diffucult
    During my runs while I was roaming with my guild mates we would useally take camps and towers all the way to the enemy main camp right above their spawn at their own homeworld
    The trip takes maybe 5 minutes at best from the botton right/left home spawn to the top of the map
    You can't be lazy in a video game just play and stop trying to give yourself excuses(I'm speaking generally not to you specific)

    2)The way I see it if people are correct about the outcomes of adding this mount to WvW most will probably not quit but the activity will drop
    While players will get their mount and leave WvW will probably be dead most of the time.
    I will try to continue roaming and hope it would still be possible but if not I will probably avoid going into WvW again
    Then again like I said on my first post this will not make players stay in this mode
    Why would they?! How is one update of adding a mount to WvW will change their mind about PvP?!
    It would also not make them play better.
    Every player who purchased the game had tons of chances to click the WvW icon and try it but most avoided it.

    The way I see it PvE players avoid PvP because they don't like it. And I don't blame them deathamatch is not for everyone :\

    The hype is coming but it will pass after the first few weeks after that we will see where it goes from there...

    Not a myth. If the big fight is at the opposite end of the map then it could very well be over before you get there.

    There are always fights and WvW is not about targeting one objective at the time(excluding castle in EB)
    Also while the enemy is focused on one location why not take another?!
    You're giving yourself an excuse mate and the mounts will not fix this problem anyways
    People will have a faster response hence will make the fight end way more sooner than you expecting

    That isn't entirely true, server sizes along with timezones have a big impact on this.
    And what happens if you are with a smaller population of just you and you roam and you bring attention to yourself when your team just have a whole bunch of like small little roamers all about and the other team has a zerg or two online, what can you actually do?

    Roamers and flankers can have big impacts, but that is only as strong as the rest of their server is at helping them achieve their goals. You need your own zerg to either capitalize on your distraction or distract for your little self or little roaming group to succeed and make the enemy zerg super frustrated.

    More people is a good goal and yes, Alliances is the primary thing required to really see some population changes however that isn't a system that is going to just happen. It is going to take a lot of time and money and lets be real here it comes down to more than just the potential of mounts attracting players, it is also the fact that WvW is the only mode that isn't really using mounts, which means they have no reason to spend money on the mount cosmetics, this is a way to increase funding to WvW.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • Here's my bottom line: WvW has been a game mode that has seen a steady decline of players over the years. Additionally, the incoming news of the removal of servers from the direct matchmaking equation on the horizon has already rocked the server populations immensely for months now. I know there are concerns about game stability, and equally as importantly, balance - but I think that this may be the honey regular PvE players need to AT LEAST TRY the damned format.

    Bear with me:

    As a player who regularly plays across every available format of the game (PvE via Living World, Fractals & Raids, as well as WvW & sPvP), this feature has the potential to get new blood into the mix. If the mount works as a filter for people who will actually become active WvW players through the prize at the end of the road, so be it. Hopefully, implementation and balance will come forthwith, but I do not understand the depth of the uproar coming from the WvW community. It's not like the other planned matchmaking changes that also address low population and downtime in WvW are off the table. I could be wrong, I know, and I'm making room for that possibility.

    Here's the thing, I get that most people are getting mad at how this feels like a diversion from getting at core issues with WvW. Skill lag (I admit to having minimal issues with this personally), server stability, population highs and lows, and general balance are on hardcore WvW players minds. I don't see this as Anet coming here to say "this will solve all your problems," or even "We're ignoring you flat out," but I will admit they're a little less forthcoming than I think they should be where communicating the reason they felt it was a good time to implement this feature. That is one place I am with many in the community who feel blindsided by this announcement coming seemingly out of nowhere.

    TL;DR:

    This is a positive change because even if people come for the mount, the game mode will have new blood and some people might even get hooked (or will give it a shot).

    Potential requires action in order to be realized.

  • StrawHat.2639StrawHat.2639 Member ✭✭✭

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:
    Here's my bottom line: WvW has been a game mode that has seen a steady decline of players over the years. Additionally, the incoming news of the removal of servers from the direct matchmaking equation on the horizon has already rocked the server populations immensely for months now. I know there are concerns about game stability, and equally as importantly, balance - but I think that this may be the honey regular PvE players need to AT LEAST TRY the damned format.

    Bear with me:

    As a player who regularly plays across every available format of the game (PvE via Living World, Fractals & Raids, as well as WvW & sPvP), this feature has the potential to get new blood into the mix. If the mount works as a filter for people who will actually become active WvW players through the prize at the end of the road, so be it. Hopefully, implementation and balance will come forthwith, but I do not understand the depth of the uproar coming from the WvW community. It's not like the other planned matchmaking changes that also address low population and downtime in WvW are off the table. I could be wrong, I know, and I'm making room for that possibility.

    Here's the thing, I get that most people are getting mad at how this feels like a diversion from getting at core issues with WvW. Skill lag (I admit to having minimal issues with this personally), server stability, population highs and lows, and general balance are on hardcore WvW players minds. I don't see this as Anet coming here to say "this will solve all your problems," or even "We're ignoring you flat out," but I will admit they're a little less forthcoming than I think they should be where communicating the reason they felt it was a good time to implement this feature. That is one place I am with many in the community who feel blindsided by this announcement coming seemingly out of nowhere.

    TL;DR:

    This is a positive change because even if people come for the mount, the game mode will have new blood and some people might even get hooked (or will give it a shot).

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:
    Here's my bottom line: WvW has been a game mode that has seen a steady decline of players over the years. Additionally, the incoming news of the removal of servers from the direct matchmaking equation on the horizon has already rocked the server populations immensely for months now. I know there are concerns about game stability, and equally as importantly, balance - but I think that this may be the honey regular PvE players need to AT LEAST TRY the damned format.

    Bear with me:

    As a player who regularly plays across every available format of the game (PvE via Living World, Fractals & Raids, as well as WvW & sPvP), this feature has the potential to get new blood into the mix. If the mount works as a filter for people who will actually become active WvW players through the prize at the end of the road, so be it. Hopefully, implementation and balance will come forthwith, but I do not understand the depth of the uproar coming from the WvW community. It's not like the other planned matchmaking changes that also address low population and downtime in WvW are off the table. I could be wrong, I know, and I'm making room for that possibility.

    Here's the thing, I get that most people are getting mad at how this feels like a diversion from getting at core issues with WvW. Skill lag (I admit to having minimal issues with this personally), server stability, population highs and lows, and general balance are on hardcore WvW players minds. I don't see this as Anet coming here to say "this will solve all your problems," or even "We're ignoring you flat out," but I will admit they're a little less forthcoming than I think they should be where communicating the reason they felt it was a good time to implement this feature. That is one place I am with many in the community who feel blindsided by this announcement coming seemingly out of nowhere.

    TL;DR:

    This is a positive change because even if people come for the mount, the game mode will have new blood and some people might even get hooked (or will give it a shot).

    Problem is in your last line, it didn't work for pips and other rewards that well so if we streamline will be same thing but anyways, am gonna opentag up more on weekends for the new players if queues allow it.

    Sanji
    Lost last glimmer of enthusiasm for WvW

    Anet dragon has finally defeated the
    **WvW WarBorn **
    He's over 7000!
    Havok lover with a sprinkle of Zerging

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    For those not familiar with design and development, it is likely the decision to put mounts into WvW was done long ago probably when the originally designed mounts for PoF. Outside of minor tweaks and bug fixes, development is on a schedule often months/years out. The design problems of today are likely not slated to be addressed for months. Scheduled features are often designed when the product looked much different than it currently does.

    I am sure the designers and the developers are excited by the work they have done and I for one am not going to kitten all over their hard work at least until we have seen the real world results of their efforts. Please take a deep breath, appreciate WvW development isn't completely dead and give their work a chance to speak for itself. I know if I put a few hundred hours into a feature and the users dumped all over it before they even saw it, I would be far less inclined to add features in the future.

  • StrawHat.2639StrawHat.2639 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    For those not familiar with design and development, it is likely the decision to put mounts into WvW was done long ago probably when the originally designed mounts for PoF.

    I am sure the designers and the developers are excited by the work they have done and I for one am not going to kitten all over their hard work at least until we have seen the real world results of their efforts. Please take a deep breath, appreciate WvW development isn't completely dead and give their work a chance to speak for itself. I know if I put a few hundred hours into a feature and the users dumped all over it before they even saw it, I would be far less inclined to add features in the future.

    I think you forget the lag WvW goes threw, mounts isn't a simple add-on for WvW if all 150-200 people on map have them, fights gonna be more laggy just by the added rendering and information for the mounts.

    And if they had made it a longtime ago why not just added it when pips came out or beta test it in Eotm ages ago...I don't know...

    Sanji
    Lost last glimmer of enthusiasm for WvW

    Anet dragon has finally defeated the
    **WvW WarBorn **
    He's over 7000!
    Havok lover with a sprinkle of Zerging

  • I think the title "Lets be real here the new mount will not promote WvW" is missing the motivation here. Mounts in WVW is intended to promote PoF.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
    Here is why...
    if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
    if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
    After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

    If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
    We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

    Here is the thing ... there are PVE players that avoid WvW only because of some deficiencies they experience in it; I'm one of them. I doubt the idea is that the mount entices PVErs to come into WvW to get rekt'd while obtaining it. I hope the idea is that the mount is likely to address some of the deficiencies that make people avoid WvW so they can get the mount and experience more of what is good about WvW and less of what they don't like in it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    I bet you see queue because of it.

    Regardless, this topic is moot. Just another veiled whine over a feature nobody has even tried yet.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Here is the thing ... there are PVE players that avoid WvW only because of some deficiencies they experience in it; I'm one of them. I doubt the idea is that the mount entices PVErs to come into WvW to get rekt'd while obtaining it. I hope the idea is that the mount is likely to address some of the deficiencies that make people avoid WvW so they can get the mount and experience more of what is good about WvW and less of what they don't like in it.

    That's going to depend on the requirements to obtain the mount. A lot of that will depend on this tuesday's patch because if points of balance aren't addressed, as you mentioned, the average player's only going to have so much patience for being forced into the role of punching bag before they leave the mode for good -mount or no.

    ANet has a habit of missing the boat in this respect. Releasing expansion packs and making you earn the new elites instead of letting you play them fully equipped through the story content - where their respective, new abilities would have been most appreciated and relevant. Instead they'd set them behind hero points walls, so that if you'd played the expac organically, that's to say as-intended, you'd have been sick of the contents by the time you'd fully unlocked your new role. This lead to a lot of players looking for guides and simply skipping past as much content as possible to have the points they'd needed quickly and then deserting the new maps.

    Could only hope they don't repeat history and that they give these mounts to everybody straight off so that these deficiencies you mentioned are made up for in a timely enough fashion to offset the probable mass exodus. Chances are against that though as they probably took the example of the griffon mount as a carrot to make players spend more time in PoF maps to acquire it. I made the effort but I'd hardly say it was fun, but that's me. Unless it's helping a friend or guildie to meet some goal there I go out of my way to avoid PoF.

  • @InvaGir.9158 said:
    This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
    Here is why...
    if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
    if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
    After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

    If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
    We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

    I havent done wvw in awhile but this mount will bring me back! So everyone can look forward to that.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
    Here is why...
    if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
    if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
    After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

    If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
    We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

    Here is the thing ... there are PVE players that avoid WvW only because of some deficiencies they experience in it; I'm one of them. I doubt the idea is that the mount entices PVErs to come into WvW to get rekt'd while obtaining it. I hope the idea is that the mount is likely to address some of the deficiencies that make people avoid WvW so they can get the mount and experience more of what is good about WvW and less of what they don't like in it.

    They'll get rekt by the balance one way or another, with or without the mount.

  • @StrawHat.2639 said:

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:
    Here's my bottom line: WvW has been a game mode that has seen a steady decline of players over the years. Additionally, the incoming news of the removal of servers from the direct matchmaking equation on the horizon has already rocked the server populations immensely for months now. I know there are concerns about game stability, and equally as importantly, balance - but I think that this may be the honey regular PvE players need to AT LEAST TRY the damned format.

    Bear with me:

    As a player who regularly plays across every available format of the game (PvE via Living World, Fractals & Raids, as well as WvW & sPvP), this feature has the potential to get new blood into the mix. If the mount works as a filter for people who will actually become active WvW players through the prize at the end of the road, so be it. Hopefully, implementation and balance will come forthwith, but I do not understand the depth of the uproar coming from the WvW community. It's not like the other planned matchmaking changes that also address low population and downtime in WvW are off the table. I could be wrong, I know, and I'm making room for that possibility.

    Here's the thing, I get that most people are getting mad at how this feels like a diversion from getting at core issues with WvW. Skill lag (I admit to having minimal issues with this personally), server stability, population highs and lows, and general balance are on hardcore WvW players minds. I don't see this as Anet coming here to say "this will solve all your problems," or even "We're ignoring you flat out," but I will admit they're a little less forthcoming than I think they should be where communicating the reason they felt it was a good time to implement this feature. That is one place I am with many in the community who feel blindsided by this announcement coming seemingly out of nowhere.

    TL;DR:

    This is a positive change because even if people come for the mount, the game mode will have new blood and some people might even get hooked (or will give it a shot).

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:
    Here's my bottom line: WvW has been a game mode that has seen a steady decline of players over the years. Additionally, the incoming news of the removal of servers from the direct matchmaking equation on the horizon has already rocked the server populations immensely for months now. I know there are concerns about game stability, and equally as importantly, balance - but I think that this may be the honey regular PvE players need to AT LEAST TRY the damned format.

    Bear with me:

    As a player who regularly plays across every available format of the game (PvE via Living World, Fractals & Raids, as well as WvW & sPvP), this feature has the potential to get new blood into the mix. If the mount works as a filter for people who will actually become active WvW players through the prize at the end of the road, so be it. Hopefully, implementation and balance will come forthwith, but I do not understand the depth of the uproar coming from the WvW community. It's not like the other planned matchmaking changes that also address low population and downtime in WvW are off the table. I could be wrong, I know, and I'm making room for that possibility.

    Here's the thing, I get that most people are getting mad at how this feels like a diversion from getting at core issues with WvW. Skill lag (I admit to having minimal issues with this personally), server stability, population highs and lows, and general balance are on hardcore WvW players minds. I don't see this as Anet coming here to say "this will solve all your problems," or even "We're ignoring you flat out," but I will admit they're a little less forthcoming than I think they should be where communicating the reason they felt it was a good time to implement this feature. That is one place I am with many in the community who feel blindsided by this announcement coming seemingly out of nowhere.

    TL;DR:

    This is a positive change because even if people come for the mount, the game mode will have new blood and some people might even get hooked (or will give it a shot).

    Problem is in your last line, it didn't work for pips and other rewards that well so if we streamline will be same thing but anyways, am gonna opentag up more on weekends for the new players if queues allow it.

    I'm aware that it generated very temporary boosts in player interest. I was there before and after they hit PvP and WvW. I'm simply saying this is something new that hasn't been attempted yet in order to provide the same WvW advertisement effect. Saying nothing about the rewards that should be improved, if the goal is getting more people to try the mode. That's my issue, people won't even look at it sideways unless there's a substantial carrot on the stick. Plus, after removing the map completion requirements from WvW there's nothing to make the players go there in the first place anymore.

    Potential requires action in order to be realized.

  • No one who dislikes wvw, will do wvw just because there is a mount. I am sorry, that is stupid. It is the game play they do not like, and a mount won't change that.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
    Here is why...
    if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
    if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
    After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

    If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
    We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

    Here is the thing ... there are PVE players that avoid WvW only because of some deficiencies they experience in it; I'm one of them. I doubt the idea is that the mount entices PVErs to come into WvW to get rekt'd while obtaining it. I hope the idea is that the mount is likely to address some of the deficiencies that make people avoid WvW so they can get the mount and experience more of what is good about WvW and less of what they don't like in it.

    They'll get rekt by the balance one way or another, with or without the mount.

    Maybe, but no reasonable player would except otherwise. There are PVErs that don't have a problem getting rekt'd; that's not the reason they avoid WvW. Personally, I avoid it because of the action 'downtime' ... periods of time where I'm just waiting or running somewhere; basically doing nothing. I want to be in the action as much as possible, EVEN if I'm getting rekt'd when I do it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭

    @Reanne.5462 said:
    No one who dislikes wvw, will do wvw just because there is a mount. I am sorry, that is stupid. It is the game play they do not like, and a mount won't change that.

    Agree,it will get an player boost for a short while atleast i reckon.Untill the pvers all have their mount and since its usable in pve aswell,unless they really dig wvw i dont see them stay all too long.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @InvaGir.9158 said:
    This will not promote WvW if its going to allow this mount to be used in PvE
    Here is why...
    if PvE players avoid pvp content for years why would they stick around now that we have a mount?!
    if they suck at pvp this new mount will not make them play better and they will still die regardless forcing them to respawn at their home checkpoint
    After the first few weeks when people will get their new cat mount they will leave for good...

    If that's an attempt to promote WvW i'm sorry but its a terrible one
    We should've given the Alliance update instead allowing us to join other guildies and help each other out and also open some people eyes into a new content.

    Here is the thing ... there are PVE players that avoid WvW only because of some deficiencies they experience in it; I'm one of them. I doubt the idea is that the mount entices PVErs to come into WvW to get rekt'd while obtaining it. I hope the idea is that the mount is likely to address some of the deficiencies that make people avoid WvW so they can get the mount and experience more of what is good about WvW and less of what they don't like in it.

    They'll get rekt by the balance one way or another, with or without the mount.

    Maybe, but no reasonable player would except otherwise. There are PVErs that don't have a problem getting rekt'd; that's not the reason they avoid WvW. Personally, I avoid it because of the action 'downtime' ... periods of time where I'm just waiting or running somewhere; basically doing nothing. I want to be in the action as much as possible, EVEN if I'm getting rekt'd when I do it.

    So true. I can spend a long time playing at a front line, where people push and pull. Until you die and have to basically take a 5 minute break walking back.

    I would almost suggest that walls and doors are way easier to break and way easier to fortify or repair. I prefer a more volatile battlefield over a long and drawn out battle, which then additionally times you out for longer periods of them. Thats just very grindy with even grindier breaks.
    And instead of things getting interesting at a 5v5 attack defense situation, it is only interesting if theres a larger zerg on both sides.

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