Does Retal need a nerf?

How do others feel about the Retaliation boon?I didn't mind it until I started playing an extremely high AoE DPS build, now I find myself killing myself almost every team fight engagement (picture for example)

How do others feel about it?Does the damage need a nerf?

FA tempest?^^

The access could be reduced. Core guard having lots of benefits kinda kills (for example) tempests with air overload indeed. On the other hand, that's why you can adjust builds and classes before matches.

In WvW it's even worse. Imagine being a staff ele and a zerg suddenly getting retaliation. If I had to change it I'd give it an ICD that functions just like with auras.

Retal is designed to punish builds like that. It's doing the work it's intended to.I do think there should be a 1-sec ICD for the damage in WvW though. In a way that if you hit 5 targets, you take 5xRetal damage but if you hit them again within that second, it doesn't hit you another time.

@Yannir.4132 said:Retal is designed to punish builds like that. It's doing the work it's intended to.I do think there should be a 1-sec ICD for the damage in WvW though. In a way that if you hit 5 targets, you take 5xRetal damage but if you hit them again within that second, it doesn't hit you another time.

That's what I don't get though, why punish a player using a high risk build for landing the combo just right? On the entire team for that matter, why should I be punished for their error of judgement?

I think ICD would be great for PvP too ?

I think it’s damage in sPvP should be cut in half. The primary user of this boon, guardian, uses it for trait multipleliyers. It’s damage is defention of passive game play.

I like the extremely high damage AoE build that's probably not broken at all. Also 41 hits.

Retal doesn't mean reflect... The damage is inflicted and also sent to the inflicter... Both inflicted and inflicter receives damage... I feel this way coz as ranger, we don't have much access to retal except while using WD... and if a DE marks us and is about to quick kill in mid fight, or another pew pew ranger started his pewing, we have an option to take them to the grave with us(if we burn, u burn with us - katniss) :p ;) ... I think.

Note:Except siamoth ? boonbeast build ofc...

Damage was reduced a million years ago for the same reasons the OP stated above.....I dont agree with an ICD unless they change the way retal works so that its becomes more like a reflect and does damage based on the damage the attacker is doing. This way the multiple small hits dont hurt so much but the bigger hits do.

It was ALWAYS stupid from the beginning, and sure it might be possible nowadays out-damage retal. But the real problem is ANET won't be getting rid of "passive" play anytime soon.

Damage is fine, why no icd and diminishing return like ele auras, ele MS or anything ele related in fact.

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"Yannir.4132" said:Retal is designed to punish builds like that. It's doing the work it's intended to.I do think there should be a 1-sec ICD for the damage in WvW though. In a way that if you hit 5 targets, you take 5xRetal damage but if you hit them again within that second, it doesn't hit you another time.

Why is it any different than Confusion?

You say you did your combo "just right", but if you did it when the enemy had retal up then you didn't do it "just right" did you? Like throwing a CC into stability.

Its the same with button-mashing when you have confusion on; it's all very well saying "but I did a really awesome tight complex combo, why I get punished?!", but, the whole point is that you are punished for your lack of properly tracking what conditions you have on you (or, in this case, what boons the enemy has up).

Also, you ask "why punish a player using a high risk build".......... that is the definition of high risk? You are easily punished? And the trade-off is you have big potential reward?

You can query whether specific skills apply too much or too easy retaliation, same as you can query whether some skills apply too much/easy confusions, blind, weakness, whatever. But to call into question the entire mechanic because you didn't pay attention and blew yourself up is a rather knee-jerk resposne.

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"Yannir.4132" said:Retal is designed to punish builds like that. It's doing the work it's intended to.I do think there should be a 1-sec ICD for the damage in WvW though. In a way that if you hit 5 targets, you take 5xRetal damage but if you hit them again within that second, it doesn't hit you another time.

How do you deal if they retal up after getting hit by a multihit aoe? I agree you should be cautious whether or not your ennemies have retal up, the issue is the timing.

@MyPuppy.8970 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"Yannir.4132" said:Retal is designed to punish builds like that. It's doing the work it's intended to.I do think there should be a 1-sec ICD for the damage in WvW though. In a way that if you hit 5 targets, you take 5xRetal damage but if you hit them again within that second, it doesn't hit you another time.

The answer is: you don't.

Its like asking "how do you deal if they stability up after activating a long duration CC (e.g. line of warding, lightning field)." Or if the enemy pops resistance after you activated a condi-pulsing-field. Sorry, the enemy countered you, you aren't entitled to a counter-counter in all situations.

The only true counter to this is either boon-rip, or to observe the enemy and assess the state of their cooldowns. If you know their stability is on CD, go ham with the CC's. If you're pretty sure their stability is off CD, maybe don't go ham and try bait it instead. Same with retal.

With retal, this is super easy. While some builds do have very high uptime on personal retaliation, the amount of AoE retal in the game is actually really low. There's 3 seconds from FB elite mantra, on a 20 second cooldown, and then there's 3 seconds from Tome 3 #5, on 75 second cooldown. That's it in the current meta. FB will probs pop 1 charge of mantra in the initial clash, and will then save the rest for critical moments. So just try to restrain your raging damage boner for 3 seconds.

The problem is related to general power creep, not retal.

I have never seen retal hitting this hard wtf

Damage had already been nerfed before, stop nerfing everything just so everyone can be pleased. Sheesh. Next you're gonna tell me Fury is broken, plsnerf. Weakness is broken, plsnerf. Lord.

@Ragnar.4257 said:With retal, this is super easy. While some builds do have very high uptime on personal retaliation, the amount of AoE retal in the game is actually really low. There's 3 seconds from FB elite mantra, on a 20 second cooldown, and then there's 3 seconds from Tome 3 #5, on 75 second cooldown. That's it in the current meta.

GS Symbol is also AoE retal. Core Guard is somewhat meta, certainly common enough.

an icd at least.

@Lilyanna.9361 said:Damage had already been nerfed before, stop nerfing everything just so everyone can be pleased. Sheesh. Next you're gonna tell me Fury is broken, plsnerf. Weakness is broken, plsnerf. Lord.

Weakness surely needs a nerf. Also, nerfing passive game play is alway good. And we already have much power creep. It is good to scale some things down.

@MyPuppy.8970 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"Yannir.4132" said:Retal is designed to punish builds like that. It's doing the work it's intended to.I do think there should be a 1-sec ICD for the damage in WvW though. In a way that if you hit 5 targets, you take 5xRetal damage but if you hit them again within that second, it doesn't hit you another time.

You cannot. Some builds have 100% retaliation uptime.

It does about 260-270 damage. It is not much or priority. But nerfing its damage is step in the right direction.

But what even then is the purpose of the boon if it has an ICD? Its only function is to punish multi-hits.

This is like complaining that Blind is under-powered because it only impacts powerful single-hit moves and is useless against multi-hits.

They're for different purposes.

Blind/Aegis are for punishing powerful, single-hit, telegraphed skills, while having almost no impact on multi-hit attacks.Retal is for punishing multi-hit attacks, while having almost no impact on powerful, single-hit attacks.

This boon is useless. It punishes fast-attacking builds like FA weaver which also happen to have a low health pool. It was good when boon spam was at a minimum--now players can achieve high retal uptime and low amount of windows to strike by countering the retal. It encourages builds that have low hit count but high dps like Deadeye and other toxic builds.

Most "retaliation" guardian builds don't even care about the retaliation damage itself, which is fairly minimal. It's just there because the boon provides a bonus to crit chance on those builds, and we need that because we're running Valkyrie. You're dropping an AoE on a group with retaliation. I would suggest you should not.

No it's working as it's meant to work, actually as was said before that's like arguing against Confusion or Stability or Torment. That's why even though I run a core Guardian I pick a combination of Sigils that clear Conditions and remove Boons so things like my knockdown, pull etc have a chance to actually work. You can use this same argument against the increase in unblockable attacks or say that Aegis is broken because it only blocks the first hit on a multiple hit attack but you would still be wrong there is a trade off with each offensive or defensive choice you make none of them are supposed to be fool proof and usually with very large advantages come very large weakness or at least it should, I mean look at a class like the Guardian that automatically triggers a large number of boons and watch what happens against a class that corrupts boons and suddenly he finds that he is killing himself. I know it isn't prefect but it is a work in progress.

41hit.....ya i'll assume you or anyone else hitting someone that many times is going to get clapped.