The Thief

Arenanet's class that utilized fast reaction times, precise dodging and ability to "know when to strike". Core thief offered wide tool to strike fast, hard and disengage to safety.It's kit had numerous dodge, teleport, stuns and cc's in form of venoms, tricks, traps and deception skills. Yet the class was missing something, what other classes had easier access to..It was "brawling" in combat for a longer period of time, going "toe-to-toe" with your foe longer, than just retreating after instant burst attempt.

And so we got:

Daredevil.

With multiple dodge, endurance gains, access to physical skills that offered block, multiple interrupts, finisher elite skill and the staff. Staff offered thief, for the first time, reliable aoe damage, while still being nimble enough to avoid damage taken, just as the core thief was.

Stealth wasn't no longer needed to survive, yet the access for it was always there. After this Arenanet must had think what "new" we could bring to the table for thief, as the path of fire was coming up.. What could new elite spec bring that wasn't there before?

Arenanet's vision brought us:

The Deadeye.

Class that gave thief access to long range, single target damage and new set of tricks, known as cantrips, that offered long range utility in forms of cc, movement and stun/launch. The idea of deadeye was almost opposite of the fast moving, dashing Daredevil, as Deadeye was the "patient hunter", having the kneel mechanic with the rifle to maximize the damage from afar, yet leaving the thief vulnerable to sudden attacks as it prevented moving, with the exception of dodge roll.

The rifle excelled doing heavy burst long range damage which was further aided by the malice system, that generated over time. This was however changed later, to only generate through hits and critical hits as the balance team felt it was "confusing" for players and wanted malice to be generated through combat.

With this change, they also changed the signature skill the deadeye, Death's judgement to be a stealth skill, which at the time was reasonable as Deadeye was mainly built around stealth. The elite cantrip provided reliable stealth, while the new trait "Silent Scope" allowed quick dodge roll to turn into reliable finisher move for a Deadeye.

This was until the rework of a phenomenon in World versus world mechanic, simply known as "Marked".

Sentries, Watchtower upgrade on Towers, freshly capped Keep, Target Painter Trap.. All of these gave thief (and all the other classes) the following debuff while they were marked:

"Detected! is an effect applied to players that enter stealth while they are marked. If they are stealthed for more than 2 seconds while detected, they will become revealed. Exiting stealth before this effect expires will remove this effect."

This change might have been made to counter "perma stealth builds" or "those annoying mesmers that hide in keeps after fresh cap".. or who knows why? But we do know, that it affected the Deadeye. Alot.

Deadeye relied to "easy" access to stealth as much as Daredevil relied on its dodges and now, with stealth "stacking" while fighting under these circumstances had been implemented, it got alot easier for Deadeye's opponents to hunt down the hunter. But did we need this?

For Rifle Deadeye, with its signature weapon was already countered by several mechanics that already were in the game and almost available to every class (taking account to their elite specs as well). Block, reflect, aegis, invulnerability, and if thinking only about Death's Judgement, every class has a dodge roll.On top of that, there are few classes that have reliable way to deny Deadeye's stealth already, that being Ranger's shout "Sick em'" and Scrapper's detection pulse or/and Engineer's "Lock on" trait.

The current state of the Deadeye is bad, to say the least. In order to build up their malice, they need to spend alot of time out of stealth and "duel" against classes that are more mobile, more durable and at the most of the times, hit harder against already squishy class that comes from core thief.

Some weapons, such as Ranger's longbow out range Deadeye's rifle even while kneeling (tested this with a friend and on flat ground the ranger arrow flies roughly 1800 distance, meaning the arrow keeps "arching" past the 1500 range, while Deadeye's bullet just "disappear" at the 1500 mark).

And to add more insult to injury, the recent post about the "Upcoming Balance Notes" posted one notable change for Deadeye.

• Silent Scope: The duration of stealth that this trait grants has been reduced from 3 seconds to 1 second in PvP and WvW.

So as things are now, and apparently soon, even worse for Rifle Deadeye.. It seems that we have to give up using the rifle all together and go for malicious backstab builds or something else.It's a shame to see such a cool concept of a sniper class to be ruined overtime like this. Seems like Berserker has to make some room next to its bench.

For fellow thieves, what do you think about the topic?

Link to the Balance Patchhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/69910/upcoming-balance-notes

PS: If Arenanet has someone reading these forums anymore, after the layoffs, I have a question for you. Do you try out playing your classes, before applying "balance patches" on them? I dare you to go and play as Deadeye in WvW (US and EU) servers for a few weeks and see how you do.

totally deserved nerf. with sa u still got 2s, and 1 s is still enough to juke. with high dmg, de has its more fair than it was for sure

I play without Silent scope a lot. The main downside is I need to get run speed somewhere else with less stealth duration to stagger out.

@"Safandula.8723" said:totally deserved nerf. with sa u still got 2s, and 1 s is still enough to juke. with high dmg, de has its more fair than it was for sure

The thing is the rifle is still countered by everything I mentioned in the original post and not seeing how its more "fair" when core mechanic of the spec is being nerfed again.To things to get "fair", either ranger's longbow range should be nerfed to 1500 (make the arrow disappear into mid air similar to deadeye's rifle bullets) or boost up rifle kneeled range to 1800-2000.That way Deadeye would have equal footing for the pew pew bow. And while at the the topic of pew pew, that skill, as well all other "channel dmg skills" should break target when going to stealth, instead of following and hitting the target.

I would also be interested to see the "Stealth dodge roll" going away from the trait entirely, and become part of baseline deadeye, just as the 3rd dodge is for Daredevil. If dodge, regardless of the weapon would give deadeye the upcoming 1s stealth, it would be fine and honestly open up the deadeye traitline options for more, when playing with the rifle.

Obviously Silent Scope isn't used when running without the rifle.

@THE FORGE.7198 said:

@"Safandula.8723" said:totally deserved nerf. with sa u still got 2s, and 1 s is still enough to juke. with high dmg, de has its more fair than it was for sure

just nef all ranged dmg in this game. im surprised, sic em wasnt nerfed, as well with this shitty longbow range

@Safandula.8723 said:

@THE FORGE.7198 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:totally deserved nerf. with sa u still got 2s, and 1 s is still enough to juke. with high dmg, de has its more fair than it was for sure

Looks like you basically need to l2p the game if you also have problems with sic em ranges. There's something called dodge. Please use it when you see a ranger that's about to sic em you.

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@THE FORGE.7198 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:totally deserved nerf. with sa u still got 2s, and 1 s is still enough to juke. with high dmg, de has its more fair than it was for sure

ur mad boy cuz u got offended, hard to handle huh? doing 20k rapid fires in 1 s is balance issue, 40 % dmg modificator... u rly like 1 shot wars kid

@Safandula.8723 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@THE FORGE.7198 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:totally deserved nerf. with sa u still got 2s, and 1 s is still enough to juke. with high dmg, de has its more fair than it was for sure

Dude. Core guard can 1 shot,mesmer can 1 shot, Holo,reaper can 1 shot. You really need to learn to dodge

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@THE FORGE.7198 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:totally deserved nerf. with sa u still got 2s, and 1 s is still enough to juke. with high dmg, de has its more fair than it was for sure

ur ability to see things in bigger perspective is diappointing... ofc everything can 1 shot, what is important is the safety of doing it. commitment. 1 shoting and permastealthing is as junk as 1 shoting from 2k range. u see diffrence ur u want pictures or videos, cuz im not sure if ur brain can process through that

@Safandula.8723 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@THE FORGE.7198 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:totally deserved nerf. with sa u still got 2s, and 1 s is still enough to juke. with high dmg, de has its more fair than it was for sure

The fact that you cry over everything and that you complain about classes with out playing them shows you have a L2P issue. Plz play other spcs to see their flaws and learn to counter instead of crying.

Moving back to the original topic, the nerf to the stealth dodge, from 3s to 1s makes the stealth element "nearly" useless, at it only allows a setup to quick Death's Judgement, which again, locks you to kneeling animation for the duration of skill. This means after you dodge (and the stealth you gain at the end of that dodge) you hardly have any time to reposition yourself and line up the shot without burning other utility skill, such as shadowstep.

Sure you can double dodge but after that Death's Judgement you are revealed and out of dodges, and if the opponent had normal person's reaction speed, he/she either easily dodged the shot or countered it by block, reflect etc.

Not saying that unblockable Death's Judgement needs to be brought back, but rather would wish to see something else to be brought to Deadeye's "Silent Scope" Trait and general survivability kit since Anet has been so eager to nerf the Stealth aspect of the class over and over again.

And the Sniper's cover (kneel #4 skill) isn't enough as it is right now to "duel" with long range foes. It's duration is too short and its buggy to the extend where foe can shoot through it if they are standing on the wall or higher point. Costing as much initiate as it currently does, it could be aoe ring around the deadeye, rather than wall that "sometimes" block projectiles.

Also forgot to mention that malice stacking with rifle has made rifle #3 skill useless, as the "three round burst" costs 6 initiate while the "spotter's shot" only 3, and the malice can only grant 2 malice per "attack", meaning you generate more malice by spamming #2 skill on rifle, rather than using anything other on the rifle.

The rifle skills in general should be looked at as they generally feel clunky and less rewarding, when comparing "burst potential" of other classes with power based range weapon. Not sure how they could be fixed tho' without touching the malice.. Maybe increase the limit of how much malice one skill can generate?

the plus side is we wont be revealed by marked, even with SA!

I don't know why they don't bring back the old trait, it was the best for balance and counterplay, it also gave you a reason to kneel.Anyways DE damage is still there and you can still get stealth from stolen skills (x2 if improv) so I don't think it's going to change that much, survivability will be affected for sure though.I think they are trying to make DE not that sneaky but a potential burst dps which is already is but with less survivability/time window to attack.I think it's a good change for the game overall.

@Elxdark.9702 said:I don't know why they don't bring back the old trait, it was the best for balance and counterplay, it also gave you a reason to kneel.Anyways DE damage is still there and you can still get stealth from stolen skills (x2 if improv) so I don't think it's going to change that much, survivability will be affected for sure though.I think they are trying to make DE not that sneaky but a potential burst dps which is already is but with less survivability/time window to attack.I think it's a good change for the game overall.

but it pushes yet again another spec into DA, wich i feel is a bit sad. and the pressure instead of sneak they did nerf in the previous patch with the ini cost on skill 3.anyway new sneak gyro sounds fun :3

Honestly, how could this not be predicted? Mirage, deadeye, and soulbeast were the three classes that really should have expected nerfs.

The malice changes were supposed to force deadeyes to stop spending so much time in stealth, but silent scope offered a way out of that. Of course it was going to get brought down.

Stealth on dodge should have gotten removed entirely and revert it to its old state

In general if you ask anyone who participates in PvP in an MMO style game, and ask them what is the most hated class to play against, the answer you get back would probably be: stealth class (rogue/thief)

In general if you ask anyone who participates in PvP in an FPS style game, and ask them what is the most hated class to play against, the answer you get back would probably be: sniper class

Leave it to ANET to think that merging both archetypes into one profession would be a good idea :confused:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:In general if you ask anyone who participates in PvP in an MMO style game, and ask them what is the most hated class to play against, the answer you get back would probably be: stealth class (rogue/thief)

In general if you ask anyone who participates in PvP in an FPS style game, and ask them what is the most hated class to play against, the answer you get back would probably be: sniper class

Leave it to ANET to think that merging both archetypes into one profession would be a good idea :confused:

It's always seemed to me that it's more the people who don't pvp or who aren't good at it who claim stealth classes are the most hated, and those are the people who even bother to complain consistently. DE is a fun build to play, or at least the first version of it was but this version isn't bad.

@kash.9213 said:DE is a fun build to play

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:what is the most hated class to play against

:confused:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@kash.9213 said:DE is a fun build to play

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:what is the most hated class to play against

Make an actual point or go away please.

If you can always escape into permanent stealth then you aren’t fun to fight against.

I mean, in DE vs DD/Core the DE will win if it is permanently in stealth and it’s enemy isn’t.

Reducing the ease of staying in stealth levels the playing field a bit. So the change was good without gutting the stealth aspect completely.

A competent DE will still be able to be permastealth but it will be harder and thus less common to come across.

@"saerni.2584" said:If you can always escape into permanent stealth then you aren’t fun to fight against.

I mean, in DE vs DD/Core the DE will win if it is permanently in stealth and it’s enemy isn’t.

Reducing the ease of staying in stealth levels the playing field a bit. So the change was good without gutting the stealth aspect completely.

A competent DE will still be able to be permastealth but it will be harder and thus less common to come across.

However, "permastealth" existed before DE, so this really changes nothing.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:In general if you ask anyone who participates in PvP in an MMO style game, and ask them what is the most hated class to play against, the answer you get back would probably be: stealth class (rogue/thief)

In general if you ask anyone who participates in PvP in an FPS style game, and ask them what is the most hated class to play against, the answer you get back would probably be: sniper class

Leave it to ANET to think that merging both archetypes into one profession would be a good idea :confused:

Actually, the answer to both would usually be bunker-style characters. Characters that just dont die while contributing to the team. People rarely complain about the stealth classes once they are at all half-way decent (GW2 does have problems with permastealth in wvw, but thats an outlier), and Snipers are often not even good.

And considering the Kneeling mechanic which is on the rifle.. After we will get the nerf to the stealth dodge, we possibly see more DE's who pick either one of the other 2 traits (which is fine as they are good traits), but it poses the problem that now if Deadeye is "less often in stealth" why would you ever use kneeling while in combat since the max range attack is not as rewarding. Let me explain:

Lets assume you would spam rifle #2 to "poke" health away from your enemy while getting your malice stacks for the Death's Judgement, right?

Well "Skirmisher's Shot" (#2 without kneeling) costs 3 initiate and has 0.5s cast time (and you can shoot while moving).And "Spotter's Shot" (#2 with kneeling) costs 3 initiate and has 0.75 cast time (and you are rooted on the ground with your kneeling)

To get the malice stacks fast, its more preferable to "run and gun" and hopefully bait your target to burn their dodges than kneel and get a little bit extra range, unless you are shooting for position that is greatly benefitial to you, like "wall or cliff" (insert high ground joke here).

Just pointing out that with kneeling how it currently is and the other rifle skill we have while kneeling are rarely if ever used. I might go so far and say that I have never met a deadeye that have used the Sniper's cover wall as a shield (and in my previous posts I explained why but TL;DR, the skill needs updating to be viable).

I just think the Rifle needs alot of work or/and the malice needs alot of work. Because the rifle is not in a good place atm.PS: The extra range from kneeling becomes useless as soon as longbow meta ranger appears and out range's you with longbow attacks.(You may call me being salty about it, but I think its stupid to limit rifle range, and let the actual arrows fly further than intended in their tooltip description.)