Living World is wasted resources in a way

While it's always great to play it once, it doesn't have much replay value. I'd much rather have new game modes, like 10v10 or 15v15 battlegrounds, more fractals or whatever.

You mean from season 1 maybe? Every LW release after that can be replayed.

@CETheLucid.3964 said:You mean from season 1 maybe? Every LW release after that can be replayed.

They meant the value in replaying them. Yes, you can replay them all, but most have no value in doing so unless you're after achievements, and even then, that's still very limited. The maps really only see play when they offer more or similar rewards in terms of gold income [i.e istan]. Then, the reference of it being wasted resources probably refers to how most people don't pay to access the episodes as they are free for a very long period; where as if an expansion didn't see as much replay value they would've at least been paid for it in addition to expansions adding more methods of making money [Gliders-Mounts].

At this point Anet may be better served to make the 3 living world teams into a second expansion team. Have two expansion teams working on different expansions at the same time and alternate releases every year or year and a half or so. The rest of the devs could continue with all the game maintenance stuff, the balance patches and whatever else needs to be done.It's just a random idea that I'm throwing out there, but to me expansions have greater potential for replayability if they are done right and you can be sure that all players who purchase the expansion will have all of its content. This means that all the expansion maps are related to each other and can share content, unlike with living world where each map is its own thing because not everyone will have access to all the LW maps. Expansions also build hype and lead to revenue spikes, which I am sure would please Anet's NCsoft overlords :p

@"Aodlop.1907" said:Living World is wasted resources in a wayWhile it's always great to play it once, it doesn't have much replay value. I'd much rather have new game modes, like 10v10 or 15v15 battlegrounds, more fractals or whatever.

One person's "replay value" is another person's grind.One person's strong addition of a new game mode is another person's niche content with zero appeal.

I'm not against the idea. I just mean: it might not be as awesome as it sounds for the entire community.

Overall LW episodes are new content, that we get for free, but also something they can sell to new players later. Very good compromise here. You can argue about the quality or quantity, this can be changed. Imo, 2 larger maps / season were you stack all the story and all other features will result in 2 very nice maps. People will be forced to stay longer there and a lot of people in same place means fun. Like Silverwastes or DryTop where I go every time there is a daily although I have nothing left to achieve there. True might be a nightmare to make such maps, sure its easy to start a fresh new map and build there 2-3 months move to another fresh map and repeat.

@Aodlop.1907 said:While it's always great to play it once, it doesn't have much replay value. I'd much rather have new game modes, like 10v10 or 15v15 battlegrounds, more fractals or whatever.

If you want all the achievements, you have to replay it. Also a lot of people farm some LW episodes for gear.

@CETheLucid.3964 said:You mean from season 1 maybe? Every LW release after that can be replayed.That's true in a factual way but not realistically. LW season two is mostly story only and doesn't have the same type of set up as 3 and 4. I didn't play it till later but I had access to Dry Top and the Silverwastes without playing those stories so I'm not even sure if you need the LW season 2 to have access to those. I don't believe so. That means that having bought the episodes for season 2 I ultimately felt it was a waste of my money. The story was annoying and consisted mostly of standing around listening to npc's talk and talk and talk.

Season 3 is where it's at for me. The approach with the new zones and mastery points, trinkets and such still give replay value in the sense that whenever you change a build significantly or level a new character, you have a reason to farm there and get more trinkets.

Season 4 pretty much abandoned this approach and most of the maps there I rarely visit anymore after playing through the story once. The danger with skin rewards is two-fold. First of all not everyone's gonna like the skins, secondly, you only get them once and then it's done.

Now I could replay the story on all my 10 characters, but I don't feel the story is good enough or interesting enough for that. And this is of course a personal choice, but here's the thing: expansions tend to be so large that they give new content for many players. So if you don't like a few things in there, there is still a lot of stuff there that you will engage in and will have replay value. LW chapters are much smaller and tend to focus on that map with a bit of story and more of the same things for map completion and then one type of reward that may or may not appeal to you.

You simply can't contend that's not a very limited approach and so it has a lot more chance of not being interesting for a larger group of players. It's not that LW content can or cannot be replayed. Of course they can, but replay ability is not the same as replay value. And that may differ from person to person but at some point there is a group of people that consistently get little replay value out of it because there is no appeal for them. I'm not the type of guy that likes to use pink in his customer looks. Not my favorite color. So Thunderhead Peaks is without a shadow of a doubt a gorgeous map but after playing through the story and doing the map completion I just never go back there because all there is to farm is pink dragon weapon skins. I also felt the Requiem armor was not a great design. So that was me out in Jahai Bluffs.

The issue there is not whether or not there still are players that go there and do find it worthwhile but how many people do not go there anymore. Because LS chapters in the current format are not going to please those customers for months to come or longer and they are already wanting new content they find interesting. It's not enough to have content, it also needs to be something that enough people want to play. This game is not in a position where it can be casual about player numbers I would think.

@Gehenna.3625 said:The issue there is not whether or not there still are players that go there and do find it worthwhile but how many people do not go there anymore. Because LS chapters in the current format are not going to please those customers for months to come or longer and they are already wanting new content they find interesting. It's not enough to have content, it also needs to be something that enough people want to play. This game is not in a position where it can be casual about player numbers I would think.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I think you're undervaluing the power of Living Story to retain players. I have said it before, and it will be said again: Living Story (and story expansions) are the only reason I still log into this game. They're the only exciting thing about this game left for me at this point, and many of my friends feel similarly. We make a habit of joining up and tackling each new episode together and its the highlight of my month every time a new one drops. New game modes will not retain players like me. New festivals (while amazing!) will not retain players like me. Ive been playing this game (and the first GW) more or less since launch, and the dangling carrot of additional story is the only way they've been able to reliably bring me back from other gaming options on the market.

Why should we please "players like you' with casual content every 6 months instead of providing a daily source of enjoyment for players who still enjoy playing the game though ?

I often think they should add more reasons for return--like maybe a new legendary or well-rewarded quest or two that require traveling between various Living Season maps and events to complete. The problem is that people would immediately start complaining about Pay2Play because (unless they bought the expansions AND were there for the free unlocking OR already bought them) they would have to purchase seasons or episodes to complete the tasks.

Another thought would be to add a Living World Daily Completionist, where you could get an extra reward for completing any three Living Season dailies. That should help repopulate some of the LS maps.

@Sevifor.1925 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:The issue there is not whether or not there still are players that go there and do find it worthwhile but how many people do not go there anymore. Because LS chapters in the current format are not going to please those customers for months to come or longer and they are already wanting new content they find interesting. It's not enough to have content, it also needs to be something that enough people want to play. This game is not in a position where it can be casual about player numbers I would think.

Well there is a thread going on here asking what people would be willing to drop money on and the most common thing there is an expansion. But let me explain why I think that LS chapters are not nearly as effective as expansions. It's the financial results. What we've seen and this is factual information from the financial reports is that there is a peak in revenue when an expansion drops. PoF actually restored the spending after the expansion peak to the levels before HoT. However, that lasted a couple of quarters and now it's dropped 25% again. We've had LS chapters come out since PoF but spending has gone down considerably just the same. That's why I say that LS chapters have nowhere near the effect of an expansion. And you say player retention but what's the point for the game to retain players if they don't also spend money on gems? Or at least a certain amount of them.

So that's why I don't think I'm under-valuing LS chapters because they factually do not lead to increased spending but rather spending decreases over time and only expansions can bring revenue back up again from what we've seen. And again, retaining players is nice but if revenue keeps going down then the game will not survive because it does need to make a profit somewhere.

I totally get that for a number of players LS chapters are great but the facts about revenue tell me that expansions are much more valuable for the health of the game than LS chapters. The combination is of course better but I'm arguing that only doing LS and not expansions or waiting too long with expansions will mean less revenue for the game. And that's what we see historically. So I don't think it's just a matter of my opinion or that I do not assign the right value to LS chapters.

Personally, I feel like recurring world events are the way to go. Like SAB, the festivals, etc. imagine if there were dozens of such events that happened each year for a week or two at a shot; short but involved. Every time you log in there is a massive event, but it’s not there long enough to really finish everything so you gotta come back next year. And next year maybe they add more to it, as well as even more new events, etc. we would have expansions for story, events for daily fun and bringing people back.

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Sevifor.1925 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:The issue there is not whether or not there still are players that go there and do find it worthwhile but how many people do not go there anymore. Because LS chapters in the current format are not going to please those customers for months to come or longer and they are already wanting new content they find interesting. It's not enough to have content, it also needs to be something that enough people want to play. This game is not in a position where it can be casual about player numbers I would think.

Expansions have value aside from raw box sales revenue as well, they get the game free marketing, sites review the expansion- it gains exposure for the game.That must be invaluable i would have thought.

Of course i have no idea how much it costs to develop an expansion, or how successful it needs to be in order to turn over a profit.

@"Aodlop.1907" said:Why should we please "players like you' with casual content every 6 months instead of providing a daily source of enjoyment for players who still enjoy playing the game though ?

Because the two aren't mutually exclusive. Living Story is still great for enfranchised players, which you can tell anecdotally by monitoring the amount of enthusiasm and chatter around the game on the forums (where, for the most part, only the most enthusiastic players post).

Furthermore, if the goal of the discussion is to generate revenue, then keeping the maximum number of players invested in the game (and thus the greatest number of potential gem store purchasers) is a way to meet that goal. Its a sad thing to say, but Anet doesnt really need to cater to the established playerbase. If theyre still playing regularly after all this time, then they dont need additional incentive to continue playing. In an ideal world, it shouldnt BE necessary to choose one over the other, but in this thread we are discissing the hypothetical where one is a "waste" because it could be better used on something else that allegedly is not currently being supported.

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Sevifor.1925 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:The issue there is not whether or not there still are players that go there and do find it worthwhile but how many people do not go there anymore. Because LS chapters in the current format are not going to please those customers for months to come or longer and they are already wanting new content they find interesting. It's not enough to have content, it also needs to be something that enough people want to play. This game is not in a position where it can be casual about player numbers I would think.

If resources from LS were reallocated in such a way as to increase the quality and frequency of expansions, I would have no problem with that. Both of these fill a similar RPG role in our MMORPG. I would welcome new expansions with open arms and open wallet.

My concern is what the OP suggests: taking away from the story to pursue non-story gameplay elements. Both of these aspects are important, and trying to bolster the one at the expense of the other would be a mistake.

I'd like for dungeons and story to be merged into one concept, so instead having just story and no new dungeons, you'd have:

• Story missions.
• Dungeons out of some of those missions, as a 'hard mode' version for parties of 5 and sometimes 'side story' content that happens in the same instances, like revisiting Gandara to clear the aftermath of Joko's demise, or going back to Claw Island to fend off another Risen attack.
• Then we'd have dailies and bounties that sends us back to the dungeon mode of the stories for repeatable rewards.

There's no shame in reusing assets to make more content.

@Sevifor.1925 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Sevifor.1925 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:The issue there is not whether or not there still are players that go there and do find it worthwhile but how many people do not go there anymore. Because LS chapters in the current format are not going to please those customers for months to come or longer and they are already wanting new content they find interesting. It's not enough to have content, it also needs to be something that enough people want to play. This game is not in a position where it can be casual about player numbers I would think.

I hope they find a way to do both but that's my question behind all of this... with the current studio set up, will they be able to do so? I'm not expecting an answer from people here and also not from ArenaNet at this moment, but I do hope they will be able to comment something more clear about that in the not-too-distant future.

They are a waste because they aren't designed to last. I assume they could be designed to last but I have no evidence to back that up.

Expansions aren't any better considering the state of PoF.

@Aodlop.1907 said:While it's always great to play it once, it doesn't have much replay value. I'd much rather have new game modes, like 10v10 or 15v15 battlegrounds, more fractals or whatever.

And PvE players could say that resources spent on sPvP and WvW are wasted because it doesn’t benefit them. Similarly, what percentage of core content do players regularly play? Anything else would not have a replay value specifically to them and would then be a “waste of resources”.

@Aodlop.1907 said:While it's always great to play it once, it doesn't have much replay value. I'd much rather have new game modes, like 10v10 or 15v15 battlegrounds, more fractals or whatever.

Define Replay value?

Look at Personal Story; I have 8 characters at LV 80 but I've only completed the personal story 3 times. But I've visited every map in core tyria multiple times for multiple reasons.

Metas? I've done SW / Dry Top dozens of times even though I don't even own LS S2. HoT metas? I've done Octovine probably around 200 times (according to GW2 effic I'm 108th place on lumps of Aurillium) even though I've only completed the HoT story on one character.

LS Season 3? Completed on only 1 character, and right now going through it a 2nd time with my wife, otherwise I'd likely never do the story again. But I've visited each map multiple times to farm currency and for achievements.

PoF? Did the story on one character but return to the maps for various reasons / collections.

LS Season 4? Well, I have to be honest here I've done the story once, but have never returned to any of the maps for any reasons. I haven't even done the Thunderkeep meta, not once! I did the Istan Farm 3-4 times, but outside of that, S4 hasn't keep me interested at all. When I was done with the story I went back to Fractals, WvW and map completion.

As far as I can see GW2 has massive replayability because all the content remains relevant regardless of what level you are. Contrast that to a game like WoW which has massively more territory, 90% of which you'll never visit unless you are leveling a new character, but instead you'll spend all your time where the current expansion is.

@Khisanth.2948 said:Expansions aren't any better considering the state of PoF.

This. Disposable content is less a question of LS versus expansion, and more about design. Well, that, and everything getting pretty samey eventually, when it's all functionally based on the same gameplay that existed six years ago, with a few additions. Doing the same thing in a new place with a new story is still doing the same thing.

Living story already lost its meaning. Initially, it was to change the world actively through every release, though it seems wasteful but we can see how the world change. LA is now different, Kehill has ruins. Etc. It suppose to be interactive and immersive. I liked that and until today, I don't ever see a statistic on how many like or dislike that.

Anyway, now, abandoning the original living story style of changing world, they add new maps and naturally the maps other than living story purposes, it get old.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Aodlop.1907 said:While it's always great to play it once, it doesn't have much replay value. I'd much rather have new game modes, like 10v10 or 15v15 battlegrounds, more fractals or whatever.

Resources spent on sPvP does seem wasted because there isn't much to show for it.

As for WvW, since when did ANet spend resources on that? :p

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Aodlop.1907 said:While it's always great to play it once, it doesn't have much replay value. I'd much rather have new game modes, like 10v10 or 15v15 battlegrounds, more fractals or whatever.

The mount that WvW’rs so highly wanted? :)

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Aodlop.1907 said:While it's always great to play it once, it doesn't have much replay value. I'd much rather have new game modes, like 10v10 or 15v15 battlegrounds, more fractals or whatever.

If only it came with the desert BL ...