Why I hate OH Sword's design.

Revenant's OH Sword is a great damage weapon. It gives the numbers in PvE/PvP Revenant otherwise lacks.Before the rework it couldn't find its place to be useful in any scenario.

BEFORE REWORK The skills used to be like this:

• 4 - Block in-combat attacks, then unleash the series of hits immobilizing your foes (this skill felt very slow but it was a great design; you first Block attacks and warn your opponent that the big damage blow is inc. Again, the damage was very underwhelming for such a long skill, but a great design)

• 5 - Hit your foe, teleport backwards and pull your foe with you (very clunky but the idea itself was very interesting, unfrotunately Revenant had no use of this mechanic and it was pretty useless)

AFTER REWORK:

• 4 - Unleash the series of hits that immobilize your foes (massive on-demand damage, easy to dodge due to wind up animation. Nothing interesting about this skill. Just a damage tool that carries Revenant's lack of damage, nothing else. No interesting design, no interaction gameplay, just an empty numbers of damage. Dodge or die skill. It 's just boring).

• 5 - Teleport to your target, hit it - if the attack hits, follow up with second attack (this is what gets me the most. There's nothing interesting about this skill. You just appear near your target out of nowhere and hit it with high damage. Again, It's easy to dodge but that's isn't the point. This skill od just deadly boring to use. Pop and get high numbers, nothing more).

So why do I hate the OH Sword?This weapon is straight boring and brings nothing to the Revenant gameplay. It's a damage filler which the class needed. Seems to me like the Devs looked what Revenant lacked and just packed it into this weapon.Rev needs damage - give it skill that hits 210 times for million damage - issue fixed!Rev needs more damage and needs a gap closer - give it skill that instantly teleports you and deals massive damage - issue fixed!

And now, I get why people like this weapon, ehy not like it if it hits like a truck? But that doesn't mean the gameplay behind this weapon has to be so bloody boring. There's nothing special about this weapon besides being a faster and more OP version of Axe.And it's getting a flat 40% damage buff in PvE because numbers were too low, so just BUFF them up, no problem - fixed.I'd love Power Rev to be a thing but make it interesting! Not just a tool that carries Revenant's lack of damage.

Question to you, do you thing that OH Sword's design is interesting? I'm not asking about the performance, but the design.

Before the change OH sword was considered terrible for pve and noone ran it there. All going axe for the unreliable teleport. Shiro was themed as two swords, so it always felt wrong that OH sword was so bad for power rev.

@LucianDK.8615 said:Before the change OH sword was considered terrible for pve and noone ran it there. All going axe for the unreliable teleport. Shiro was themed as two swords, so it always felt wrong that OH sword was so bad for power rev.

And that is totally understandable that OH Sword's fot reworked. This is what it needed. My concern is the design of weapon, it's a flat damage booster which doesn't bring anything interesting to the gameplay. Some might argue but for me, the skills od OH Sword is a copy-paste Axe on steroids.

I am worried about Revenant getting in that weird direction. It seems like everything Revenant gets is numbers and I don't like it. People talk about every class like that - it needs overhaul because it's broken Core. Well, Rev doesn't really have core and there is just 1 build per gamemode that performs well because of good numbers.Renegade RAID build is a buff doll and million condi dmg, and Herald-Shiro PvP is just high damage. I don't want Rev to be like this.

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:Before the change OH sword was considered terrible for pve and noone ran it there. All going axe for the unreliable teleport. Shiro was themed as two swords, so it always felt wrong that OH sword was so bad for power rev.

Agreed, I never said it was good mechanics wise, but they clearly wanted to encourage people to use OH sword over OH axe. But yeah, they seem in love with the clunky mechanics of the class, unfortunately.

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:Before the change OH sword was considered terrible for pve and noone ran it there. All going axe for the unreliable teleport. Shiro was themed as two swords, so it always felt wrong that OH sword was so bad for power rev.

I just hope they are still planning to do something about this. Gyros just got the treatment people have been asking for in Renegade's spirits.That's very underwhelming when looking at Patch Notes. But I think they are going on the right direction overall with the Balance stuff. Just a couple patches more.

I only started playing my Rev in PvE after the rework, and I had no issues with OH Sword 4/5. For me, the "interesting" part of Rev was swapping legends and utility skills on cooldown. Since Sword 3 already has evade frames baked in I see no issue losing defensive utility from 4.

BUT, after the nerf a while back where they increased the cast time of Sword 4 to 1ish seconds, I have hated using the skill. I just was awkward and clunky, and when trying to combo it with Sword 5, I would sometimes miss the targets because they would move out of the cone before the cast was complete. Since then I've played my Herald 100% in WvW only, using Hammer/Staff.

Today's patch doesn't fix anything for me. Doing 40% more damage won't solve the issue that pressing the key for Sword 4 feels terrible. They could add 100% more damage and it would still feel terrible. The change we need is to make the skill feel not-terrible (aka FUN) to use.

I get why they increased the cast time for PvP, but ironically all they needed to do was LOWER the damage for Sword 4 so you couldn't teleport to target + instagib them (we already have Mesmers for that), and they could have left it alone in PvE.

Thankfully I have plenty of professions to play in PvE and Hammer Herald is very fun to zerg with (and thankfully remains untouched from this patch), so for me it will be business as usual.

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:I only started playing my Rev in PvE after the rework, and I had no issues with OH Sword 4/5. For me, the "interesting" part of Rev was swapping legends and utility skills on cooldown. Since Sword 3 already has evade frames baked in I see no issue losing defensive utility from 4.

BUT, after the nerf a while back where they increased the cast time of Sword 4 to 1ish seconds, I have hated using the skill. I just was awkward and clunky, and when trying to combo it with Sword 5, I would sometimes miss the targets because they would move out of the cone before the cast was complete. Since then I've played my Herald 100% in WvW only, using Hammer/Staff.

Today's patch doesn't fix anything for me. Doing 40% more damage won't solve the issue that pressing the key for Sword 4 feels terrible. They could add 100% more damage and it would still feel terrible. The change we need is to make the skill feel not-terrible (aka FUN) to use.

I get why they increased the cast time for PvP, but ironically all they needed to do was LOWER the damage for Sword 4 so you couldn't teleport to target + instagib them (we already have Mesmers for that), and they could have left it alone in PvE.

Thankfully I have plenty of professions to play in PvE and Hammer Herald is very fun to zerg with (and thankfully remains untouched from this patch), so for me it will be business as usual.

I understand that for some people OH Sword mighr've felt great with that instant damage and overall usability. For me it's just a Łazy design that fills the gap in Revenant's power. It brings very little (if anything) to the gameplay and that's what I hate about it.

Same thing with Searing Fissure - I just don't like them adding instant free Burn on this skill. Figure out something better - don't just mindlessly BUFF numbers od give power-spike to condi weapon.

Unrelenting Assault was an amazing skill that was one of the most unique abilities and was used for HoT branding. Then I realized Smokescale had that skill. Then I realized Soulbeast is able to use that skill through pet-merging. But that's off my point. The thing is - Revenant is a great class with even greater potential. I just wish it was execution better.

I want Revenant to be fun - not a damage-tool that it's starting to become.

ok lets stay s5 for now and change s4 back with block and after the new s4 with immob

@DonArkanio.6419 said:Same thing with Searing Fissure - I just don't like them adding instant free Burn on this skill. Figure out something better - don't just mindlessly BUFF numbers od give power-spike to condi weapon.

You do realize searing fissure is a nerf overall right? And that the change really only helps mace perform slightly better in competitive modes, right?

Edit: Also in regards to offhand sword it doesn’t really “give the damage numbers that Revenant otherwise lacks” for PvE. It’s relatively negligible damage overall compared to autoattacks/upkeeps/precision strike

@Arkantos.7460 said:ok lets stay s5 for now and change s4 back with block and after the new s4 with immob

This would make perfect sense to me, but it I just don't know what's keeping Devs from adding it. Give S4 a block and remove the huge cast time as it would already be obvious what's going to follow up after S4 Block. Right?

About S5 well, I just want it to be more interactive, not click and boom. But S4 is the way to go for now.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:Same thing with Searing Fissure - I just don't like them adding instant free Burn on this skill. Figure out something better - don't just mindlessly BUFF numbers od give power-spike to

condi weapon

.

You don't get what I mean. I'm not talking about numbers but rather the design. Condition damage is meant to ramp-up before making the most of it and giving skills a condi bomb just hurts the system of condis in competitive. Now, I know how it looks now - it's just condis everywhere and classes have to follow up with more condis. But ANet has to figure out a way to deal with condis because to me (especially on Revenant) condi is just like power damage but more deadly as u can't really do anything once you get it.

And again, I'm not talking about nerfs or buffs but the design. Don't jump on me with sarcastic "... right?"

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:Same thing with Searing Fissure - I just don't like them adding instant free Burn on this skill. Figure out something better - don't just mindlessly BUFF numbers od give power-spike to

condi weapon

.

I mean if you’re talking about the design then you’d realize condi rev has the highest ramp time for its damage and it’s also not used anywhere (by the vast majority of people) in competitive play currently because it doesn’t have enough damage pressure/defenses. So yes, condition damage obviously does already ramp up for condi rev to the point where it’s hurting the class overall and some of that damage should be able to be applied somewhat faster if condi rev is ever going to shine again in pvp/wvw. Front loading some of that condi damage into searing fissure (still an overall nerf btw) isn’t going to break PvE/PVP or Wvw. . If anything it might help cRev a tiny bit in pvp/wvw where, as mentioned, it isn’t performing well at all. And even though they front loaded 3 stacks of burn they also doubled the recharge time of the skill for pvp/wvw, so it’s less spammable than it used to be, meaning if it is a buff for competitive it’s likely not much of one.

But ANet has to figure out a way to deal with condis because to me (especially on Revenant) condi is just like power damage but more deadly as u can't really do anything once you get it.

This is just objectively wrong though, especially for Revenant. The “time to kill” differential between power Revenant and condi Revenant in competitive modes is significantly higher (takes much much longer) for condi Revenant. So the statement that “condis are just like power damage but deadlier” is incorrect. They don’t function the same at all on Revenant honestly. And as for “not being able to do anything once you get hit” that’s why they make condition cleanses and evades. You wouldn’t face tank Deathstrike and Shackling Wave, why should it be okay to face tank Searing Fissure and Unyielding Anguish?

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:And now, I get why people like this weapon, ehy not like it if it hits like a truck?

Honestly, the best part of OH sword isn't the damage, it's the utility... DS has a relatively low energy cost and can be used from out of range to close on a target, escape from pressure, and--perhaps most useful of all in the current pvp/wvw roaming metascape--to hop out of immobs. People say they miss the block on ohsw, but honestly Deathstrike negates a million times more damage than old sw4 ever did.

And yeah the damage potential is cool or whatever, but people aren't eating that damage... They DO, however, have to respect it. Which means that they're going to have to burn dodges (or save them for these skills), which gives you a lot more creativity in setting up burst combos than just "ooooo, fake cast Chaotic Release memezzzz."

Oh and I guess it gives you a realistic option to pressure lords/creatures as quick objectives.

Sword 4 ought to get the block back, have the strikes nerfed by like 20%, then get a functionality that buffs damage of them by 5% per hit you block during the 2 seconds (max of 20%) so it still has high spike damage potential but it's more of a counterattack than just another big burst skill. Sword 5 needs damage nerfs and then either sword 5 or axe 4 needs to be reworked to function like a DH spear. You throw it and then it pulses cripple and life siphon (or something like that), then you can pull your foe to you and deliver the big hit so either axe or sword is more of the isolate and destroy set and the other one is the port in and go ham set. This would open up different playstyles and would help to give rev OH weps a unique feel. That's my 2 cents on the subject.

@Ario.8964 said:Sword 4 ought to get the block back, have the strikes nerfed by like 20%, then get a functionality that buffs damage of them by 5% per hit you block during the 2 seconds (max of 20%) so it still has high spike damage potential but it's more of a counterattack than just another big burst skill. Sword 5 needs damage nerfs and then either sword 5 or axe 4 needs to be reworked to function like a DH spear. You throw it and then it pulses cripple and life siphon (or something like that), then you can pull your foe to you and deliver the big hit so either axe or sword is more of the isolate and destroy set and the other one is the port in and go ham set. This would open up different playstyles and would help to give rev OH weps a unique feel. That's my 2 cents on the subject.

Changes you suggest seem very reasonable. ATM both of these weps don't have much personality due to the fact that they do pretty much the same stuff. I hope ANet will sit and take a serious look at Rev because, for me, it's starting to become one huge number gap filler without much playstyle to it.Shiro has so much stuff that any other legend feels stationary in comparison.

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@Ario.8964 said:Sword 4 ought to get the block back, have the strikes nerfed by like 20%, then get a functionality that buffs damage of them by 5% per hit you block during the 2 seconds (max of 20%) so it still has high spike damage potential but it's more of a counterattack than just another big burst skill. Sword 5 needs damage nerfs and then either sword 5 or axe 4 needs to be reworked to function like a DH spear. You throw it and then it pulses cripple and life siphon (or something like that), then you can pull your foe to you and deliver the big hit so either axe or sword is more of the isolate and destroy set and the other one is the port in and go ham set. This would open up different playstyles and would help to give rev OH weps a unique feel. That's my 2 cents on the subject.

Yeah, I was disappointed in the inital sword rework since it basically turned the weapon into a better version of axe. Shiro imo is the only legend that was actually designed properly. The other legends are too clunky and lack reliable stunbreaks, gap closers, etc. to be functional at the meta level. Jalis has very little sustain and tankiness for supposedly being the tank legend, also has it's only stunbreaker as the elite which for some reason they thought was a good idea (40 energy for a stunbreak with a long cast time and no stab for follow up cc... LOL). The entire class suffers from lack of stab making shiro mandatory for anyone who doesn't want to be perma cced. Mallyx has one mobility skill which is also it's big aoe and costs a ton of energy to use, transfers condis to itself because rev is so good vs condi (sarcasm btw), and suffers from high energy costs for low impact skils (smallest one is 20 energy for boon rip, albeit unblockable and stacks confusion). Ventari revolves completely around some tablet that is super clunky, takes too much time to cast it's skills, and has a 3 second cd on just getting to move the tablet in a game that is completely based around moving in combat. Then we have kalla, gets like 1 second of stab on using it's stunbreak that also has a 15 second cd and doesn't prevent any follow up cc, needs valid pathing for ground targeted aoes (really anet? who tf did you get to design this spec, cause that is such an overlooked issue it's not even funny) and has no mobility or cc (unless you want to use your only stunbreak in that legend for it), and has completely useless f2 skills. Rev is honestly a complete mess outside of glint and shiro and the weapon issues don't help it at all.

Edit: this is from a pvp perspective, pve doesn't matter because you can run anything to do the content, don't come in here talking about raids and trash mobs and act like that justifies all of rev's issues.

I'm more upset they removed a weapon from our arsenal rather than adding. Revenant already lacks weapon options as it is.

Turn the old OH Sword into a Dagger. Allow the riposte to do blind + cond instead of immobilize. Let the pull apply torment. Maybe even turn it into a flipover like DH f1.

Oh, and give us MH Dagger as a 1h Ranged throwing weapon while at it. Condi Rev lacks Ranged condi dmg outside Renegade, and that hurts build variety.

@Ario.8964 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@Ario.8964 said:Sword 4 ought to get the block back, have the strikes nerfed by like 20%, then get a functionality that buffs damage of them by 5% per hit you block during the 2 seconds (max of 20%) so it still has high spike damage potential but it's more of a counterattack than just another big burst skill. Sword 5 needs damage nerfs and then either sword 5 or axe 4 needs to be reworked to function like a DH spear. You throw it and then it pulses cripple and life siphon (or something like that), then you can pull your foe to you and deliver the big hit so either axe or sword is more of the isolate and destroy set and the other one is the port in and go ham set. This would open up different playstyles and would help to give rev OH weps a unique feel. That's my 2 cents on the subject.

On top of it we have poor OH Sword's design. This just doesn't help the class.At first, I thought Revenant was meant to be the ultimate hybrid. And as we know, hybrids can do most of roles pretty good but there's always a tradeoff. Either in damage, survivability or other. This just isn't the thing for Revenant. The skills of other legends would work great in the pre-HoT PvP environment. I think this would feel great. But today, every class brutally needs overloaded skills that do 5 things at once. And it's an endless cycle unfortunately.And as you say, OH Sword is a disappointment because it's not different from Axe. It's just on steroids. Perhaps Revenant exists in the wrong time of game and just can't find its place.Beside OH Sword and Shiro + overall PvP burst Revenant has, I think that this class is one of the most balanced classes of the game. And that unfortunately means - underperforming...

I'm looking forward to another OH Sword rework as I would really love this weapon to be distinct and special. I hope it's still possible and in the near future devs will take a look to do something about it. Same with the Shield.

@"Kain Francois.4328" said:I'm more upset they removed a weapon from our arsenal rather than adding. Revenant already lacks weapon options as it is.

Turn the old OH Sword into a Dagger. Allow the riposte to do blind + cond instead of immobilize. Let the pull apply torment. Maybe even turn it into a flipover like DH f1.

Oh, and give us MH Dagger as a 1h Ranged throwing weapon while at it. Condi Rev lacks Ranged condi dmg outside Renegade, and that hurts build variety.

It's true. Revenant always felt like it was lacking a weapon or two. Daggers would be a great solution to this but the idea got scrapped and we heard of it no more.I don;t think it's now possible to think that Revenant wil be getting any new weapon outside of E-Specs, sadly. My perfect vision would be to give Revenants access to OH Dagger. Or give Warhorn to work with the Invocation traitline and overall "Song of the Mists" theme - it's pretty cool tbh.I even thought that Shield could get changed to Warhorn, so it fits Herald and Facets better. Shield feel so outside of Revenant that except heal it doesn;t provide anything useful for the class.

I think it's fair to say that OH Sword is a copy of OH Axe. This just flattens and limits Revenant's weapon choice. We currently have 4 weapon that are underperforming in PvP. Shield, Axe, Mace and Shortbow. This doesn't look good and I really hope Revenant will see some love. Just like Guardian players want Longbow to be viable.

Change the subject to name to why i hate sword desing in general. Its been few years since i left and nothing has changed. Sword the only weapon in game that loses damage when facing multiple targets. I could understand it somewhat if the single target dmg was massive but.. its nothing special

I think the change to 5 is okay, before a melee "pull" made no sense. But removing the block.. why?

You can't claim skills are boring and demand changes to them - I myself like the skills a lot and wouldn't want any changes.

Please please please don't change sword 5 - yeah axe 4 might do kind of the same thing as sword 5, but sword 5 is a lot more reliable, can be used to bait dodges better, gives good soft CC and fury, and is an excellent mobility tool.

As for sword 4 - it's good at what it does, it's not OP after the last change (1s cast time is long enough). I'd rather see buffs to Jalis and other OH weapons than a nerf to Power Herald.

Also could someone explain how OH sword is a copy of OH axe?

I think Axe needs to be revised more than Sword.

For one, kinda important, why is our Axe Ice themed when Mace is fire themed? And why does the Axe allow us to Flank?

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I think Axe needs to be revised more than Sword.

For one, kinda important, why is our Axe Ice themed when Mace is fire themed? And why does the Axe allow us to Flank?

Well, it was the Axe that Sword got its skills from do I see no point in reworking the original weapon.

Mallyx's Unyielding Anguish application Chill. Precision Strike applies Chill, Deathstrike applies Chill, Frigid Blitz applies Chill, Elemental Blast applies Chill. This is all mechanic.

OH Sword's design is a lazy copy of Axe. Axe isn't underpowerforming. It's the Sword that makes it useless in comparison.

Shield should be revised more than anything else.

@idolin.2831 said:You can't claim skills are boring and demand changes to them - I myself like the skills a lot and wouldn't want any changes.

Please please please don't change sword 5 - yeah axe 4 might do kind of the same thing as sword 5, but sword 5 is a lot more reliable, can be used to bait dodges better, gives good soft CC and fury, and is an excellent mobility tool.

As for sword 4 - it's good at what it does, it's not OP after the last change (1s cast time is long enough). I'd rather see buffs to Jalis and other OH weapons than a nerf to Power Herald.

Also could someone explain how OH sword is a copy of OH axe?

Functionality od OH Sword is nearly identical to Axe's. You can argue about effects it provides f.e. - baiting dodges, reliability, etc. But that's not by design.

Axe 4:

1. Throw Axe and deal damage.
2. If first strike hits, you hit the second time for massive damage.
3. Teleports you to target
4. Applies Chill

Sword 5:

1. Teleport to your target and deal damage
2. If first strike hits, you hit the second time for massive damage
3. Applies Chill

Axe 5:

1. Create a Rift
2. After 1 second delay CC your enemies

Sword 5:

1. Begin casting - 1 second cast time
2. After delay hit and CC your enemies

These sound pretty identical to me. I don't demanding changes only because the skills are boring but because it's design lacks creativity. It's a boring copy of Axe. Except the massive, and I mean massive amount of damage, this weapon provides nothing to the gameplay od Revenant. Nothing it didn't have before OH Sword's rework. Just the damage.

I'm not calling anyone out for liking this weapon but I can have my opinion and I choose to speaker loud about it. I want OH Sword to be interesting and creative. I want it to be a great weapon.

@DonArkanio.6419 said:OH Sword's design is a lazy copy of Axe. Axe isn't underpowerforming. It's the Sword that makes it useless in comparison.

Please tell me how one skill out of two being similar in function (frigid blitz/deathstrike) makes OH sword a “lazy copy of axe” when clearly the other two skills (Shackling wave/temporal rift) are quite different and very much not the same